The Mugabe Mixtape

Speaker 1: Mr. Mugabe, the talks on the future of Rhodesia are expected to adjourn for Christmas quite soon. Do you feel that much has been accomplished in the past 7 weeks?

Robert Mugabe: I think, from our point of view, much has been accomplished. We have managed to place our thinking in regard to the formation of interim government before the British, and they now know what our stand is. We stand for the transfer of power. But I think another great thing which has emerged is the revelation that The reason why this conference was ever convened was to try to prevent a radical government emerging in Salisbury, and rather to try and produce a moderate government here. This is what Mr. Crossland has said. It's quite alarming. But anyway, it's one of the things that have emerged here at the conference.

Speaker 1: Are you satisfied with the way that the talks are being held?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, there is nothing quite extraordinary that has happened. We did query the procedure which Mr. Richard was following earlier on, when he insisted on bilateral talks. But he amended this procedure, and we are happy about things— about the way things went later on.

Speaker 1: To the unschooled observer, it looks as if really not that much has been accomplished. I mean, you've more or less agreed to do You disagree on a date for independence, but other than that, you don't seem to have made much progress, particularly with the white Rhodesian delegation. Why is this?

Robert Mugabe: Well, we came here first and foremost to negotiate with the British colonial power. In other words, the existence or the presence of the Smith regime here is quite irrelevant. We have regarded them as an extended British delegation, and at no time did we recognize them as a delegation in its own right.

Speaker 1: Yesterday, a couple of the American officials in the Kissinger party called what's been going on in Geneva a tribal dance, and they really don't feel that much progress will be made until the next set of meetings. How do you react to a— to a—

Robert Mugabe: Well, if it was a dance, it was a dance to our own tune. And not a dance to the Kissinger tune. And we are happy that if we have danced, we have remained constant. Our step has been always that there must be a transfer of power to the people of Zimbabwe as such, and not that there should remain effective power in the hands of the settler community, which is what Kissinger had intended should be achieved by Geneva.

Speaker 1: Do you feel that— will you, first of all, return Will you return to the talks when they resume, if they resume?

Robert Mugabe: Well, that depends entirely. If the circumstances are correct, namely, that the British will regard it as the guiding theme of the conference, that there should be transfer of power to the people of Zimbabwe, we shall consider attending. But if it is to share power with the white community, which apparently has emerged as the new thinking on the part of Britain. That, of course, we shall resist.

Speaker 1: Guerrilla activity is escalating at a very rapid rate right now in Rhodesia, and you claim to represent the fighters of the country. Are you responsible for giving instructions that the fighting should escalate?

Robert Mugabe: We are responsible for guiding the war, for supervising it. We started our liberation struggle The struggle began in earnest in 1966. It has continued ever since. And there is absolutely nothing new. If there is escalation, this escalation is something that is to be expected in any liberation struggle.

Speaker 1: But do you, in Geneva, have contact with the fighters in the field?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, of course. We are the head of the army. ZANU is running the war. We have initiated it, and therefore it is our war.

Speaker 1: So, do you, from this hotel, give instructions about, you know, where the fighting should be and—

Robert Mugabe: Well, there are commanders in the field, and these commanders know how the job should be done. But it's in accordance with the policy of the party that there should be a war, that there should be an armed struggle. And, in fact, we derive Support from the masses of the people who are in agreement with the armed struggle and who are actually participating in it.

Speaker 1: Do you believe that the talks here are going to succeed in the end to bring peace to Rhodesia?

Robert Mugabe: Well, so far, the British have proved that they are not prepared to transfer power to us. They would like power shared. Shared between us and the European community in the country. From our own point of view, there should not be a racial approach. There should be a nonracial approach to the problem. And what is required is for Britain to accept not just that the principle of the transfer of power is nonnegotiable, but also that in accordance with this— the acceptance of this principle, power should actually be transferred. If Britain accepts these 2 postures, then obviously there won't be any difficulty.

Speaker 1: Do you think Britain is going to accept these 2 postures?

Robert Mugabe: Well, this is what we— we don't know. But going by what has now emerged, apparently Britain is not prepared to have power transferred. They're prepared to have it shared with the European community.

Speaker 1: What will happen if Britain, as you suspect, does not accept the demands that you are making?

Robert Mugabe: The war continues.

Speaker 1: How much longer do you think it will take for you to gain your ends?

Robert Mugabe: That's, of course, a question we cannot answer. But going by the progress which the war has made so far, I think it won't take long before we are right in Salisbury.

Robin: In an exclusive interview, we asked Mr. Mugabe how he feels he's dealing with these problems.

Speaker 5: Prime Minister, you've spent many years in white men's jails, yet you appear not to have fallen into the trap of racism.

Robert Mugabe: What are your views on whites today? I have no feeling of animosity or hostility. What we fought against and resisted All along the way was the political order here based on racialism, which was completely undemocratic. And we fought a system, and therefore not individuals. It so happened that some people we have in the country today sustained that unjust order, but it was more the system we fought against than the individuals. And having overthrown that system and the people who sustained it having pledged themselves to upholding the new order, we felt there shouldn't be any reprisals, that in fact it was our duty to continue to convert as many whites and blacks also who didn't agree with us to our own way of thinking. And this is the exercise. It's based on reconciliation. It's based on fundamental principles that we should have a nonracial society here, a democratic order in which everybody is free and which recognizes that we all belong to Zimbabwe, and that therefore, if you accept those principles, to reverse racialism and practice it against the whites is to do precisely what the whites did against you, and that doesn't make things any better. It's the same principle, the same immorality, if you want to put it that way, and the norm therefore has got to be correctly established. It is that There shall not be any racialism, whether practiced by whites against blacks or by blacks against the whites. That's how I look at things, and that's how my party looks at things.

Robin: Good evening from United Nations headquarters in New York. Earlier today, the UN formally admitted the new African state of Zimbabwe as its 153rd member. Former British colony of Rhodesia became independent last April. After years of guerrilla warfare ended in elections for black majority rule. The winner of those elections, now Prime Minister Robert Mugabe, was present here at the United Nations today. Mr. Mugabe will see President Carter on Wednesday to discuss increased aid for his regime, which came into being with the support of the Carter administration. Mugabe's emergence has raised hopes of a new era of racial tolerance and democracy in Africa, Now that a century of European colonialism is formally over. Tonight, the problems still facing Robert Mugabe in realizing that hope. Jim?

Jim: Robin, it's been 4 months now since Robert Mugabe took over the government of Zimbabwe. Some expected miracles. Zimbabwe overnight would become an economic and social paradise for the 7 million blacks who had suffered under white minority rule. Others predicted disaster, physically for the 220,000 whites in the country, Economically and governmentally for the country as a whole. There were still others who saw it in political terms. Mugabe, a Marxist, would turn his nation into a hardline communist state. Thus far, all predictions have been wrong. The 4-month result has been a mixture of progress and problems, and most important for a nation torn by war for over 12 years, peace. The problems? Internal political tensions with Joshua Nkomo, Mugabe's old guerrilla ally, which is making it difficult to set up and integrated viable army. White flight at a rate of 1,500 a month, a situation exacerbated by the recent anti-government statements by the white former army commander Peter Walls, and by the arrest of a Mugabe cabinet minister, Edgar Tekere, on charges of murdering a white farmer. Robert Mugabe is with Robin in New York. Robin?

Robin: Prime Minister, let's start with the last thing that Jim mentioned, a story that has been in the news recently, the arrest of Edgar Tekere on the charge On charges of murdering a white farmer. That case is being seen here, at least, as an ultimate test of the principles you say the new Zimbabwe will embody. Do you see the case that way?

Robert Mugabe: No, certainly I don't. I don't think it's any more of a challenge than any other case that— of the same nature that the police have handled. They will handle this case in the same way. And I don't see any reason why it should differ from the other cases. Obviously, a minister is involved, but a minister is also subject to the law, like anybody else. And it is up to the courts to prove whether the minister is guilty or not guilty.

Robin: And given even that he is— was one of your Associates during the long guerrilla struggle, that he's the general secretary of your political party, that he has a strong political following in the country. Do you have confidence that he can receive a trial like any other person?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, certainly. And he's willing to subject himself to a trial like anybody else. There's no question of our having it otherwise. We feel that if the police have made out a case against any one of us, it is only right and proper, fair to the particular person charged, and also fair to the people that the minister subject himself to a trial.

Robin: Given that the victim of the crime, whether Mr. Tekere turns out to be guilty of it or not, given that the victim was a white farmer, does that not add a special dimension in the politics of Zimbabwe today?

Robert Mugabe: Some people would want to see it, of course, as a different case or a case falling in a different category, because, one, a minister is involved, and secondly, a white man is involved as the victim. But as far as we are concerned, the situation is that there is a charge which has been And there is a victim who suffered death, and that victim could have been a black man. Actually, part of the charge is attempted murder, which centers around the fact that 3 other people were also going to be victims, but these are 3 blacks.

Robin: Right.

Robert Mugabe: And so the case is not just exclusively centered on the one aspect of a dead white man. It is also centered on 3 others who, it is said, would have become similar victims. And as far as we are concerned, whether a white man dies or a black man dies in circumstances that lend themselves to a charge, The charge must be the same.

Robin: Have you taken any special pains yourself to say to the justice authorities in this case, make sure that justice is done and is seen to be done, because it is especially important that it is seen to be done?

Robert Mugabe: I haven't said so in respect of other charges, and naturally I won't say so in respect of this charge. But I have said it in, in general, that the law must take its course. And that the case must be— must come to court without any let or hindrance by anybody.

Robin: The other dimension of Mr. Tekere is, of course, that he is one of those of your government who has spoken out for a rather more rapid pace of radical change socially and economically, whereas you have chosen what's described as a more moderate and slower course of change. Do you have the political strength to continue at your own pace?

Robert Mugabe: I don't know Edgar Tekere to have made any proposals about any radical changes different from those which we are undertaking at the moment. Whatever changes we are having to make are changes that fall within the programs that are agreed by our Central Committee as a whole. And not just changes out of my own mind. And then they translate themselves into programs which the cabinet must implement. This is how we operate. There's no question of Edgar Dekere being more radical than any other minister on these issues, none whatsoever. And I don't know of any proposal of his which can be said to be any more radical than the proposals of other ministers.

Robin: But you wouldn't deny that you have chosen a fairly moderate and slowly paced course of change?

Robert Mugabe: No, we haven't done that. When you say I have chosen— Your government. Again, you are not ascribing the change or the pace to me as a person, but it's my government, you see, which has embarked on a course which requires That we take into account the priorities which need our attention first and foremost. And as we see things, what we need first and foremost is the consolidation of our independence. The forces that fought each other yesterday must now look at themselves as allies. And work to consolidate peace and independence. Then secondly, there are those areas which are most urgent, where attention is required immediately, such as the resettlement of our displaced persons and providing them with more land, which we are doing, getting schools back into function, building more schools, repairing those which were damaged, more hospitals. Repairing more those which were damaged and extending the services in that way. This is what we are doing, and it's, it's being done quite fast. I don't see how anybody could have done it otherwise. First, we must have peace, and only in the atmosphere of peace can we embark on any program to transform the country.

Robin: Do the masses who were your followers and voters in the election think that you are doing it fast enough?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, there are no complaints, really. None. The only complaints I'm getting are from journalists and reports, you see, abroad. Back home, people are not complaining about a lack of progress. In fact, they're very happy that government has proceeded in the manner in which it has done, you see. Already, education is free up to the primary school. Already, The health service is free for the majority of the people, those of them who do not earn more than $150 a month. And already land is being allocated to people. There is peace in the area as a whole, in spite of the small incidents that remain to be taken care of. And there is advancement in the public service. We have now, for the first time, at the head of departments of government, Africans as secretaries. This never happened before. And the army is being integrated as fast as can be.

Robin: Well, thank you. Jim?

Jim: Mr. Prime Minister, another case that's been in the news recently involves General Walls. He resigned, as you know, as head of the army, and he He had some bad things to say about you, saying that your electoral victory was brought about by intimidation, among other things. I understand it now that you would like for General Walls to leave Zimbabwe. Is that right, sir?

Robert Mugabe: What I've said is that the statement he made betrayed his true feelings, and that if in fact that's what the nature of man General Walls If he is, then he hasn't got a place in our society. In other words, he should find a home elsewhere.

Jim: Will you help him find a home? In other words, will you work—

Robert Mugabe: Yes, yes, as quickly as possible.

Jim: I see. Where is he now? I saw a report today that he was— he had gone to South Africa and was now back in Zimbabwe. Is that correct? He's back in Zimbabwe now?

Robert Mugabe: I think so, yes.

Jim: Have you taken steps now to get him out of the country?

Robert Mugabe: No, but it's absolutely necessary. It was necessary that he be assisted to get out and find a home elsewhere.

Jim: I see. What were you— what was his job? He was put in charge of the army on a transition basis for a year. Is that right? To try to integrate the guerrilla forces of yours and Joshua Nkomo's, plus the existing army? Is that what he was to do?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, that's the main task with which I charged him. But he was not to work alone. He was to work alongside the SANDLA commander, the ZIPRA commander, the commander of the former Rhodesian army, and the air force commander. And this is the pattern which we had established for purposes of bringing about a quick integration of the army. But the army, of course, that had to be integrated Was ZANLA, the ZANU army, ZIPRA, the ZAPU army, and the former Rhodesian army.

Jim: Is that— that's not going very well, is it, the integration?

Robert Mugabe: It's going well now. I think the main hurdle at the beginning was lack of instructors to undertake the retraining program. But we have had— we now have these instructors. We have had to train them ourselves, and they're doing very good work, and a battalion is being turned out every fortnight.

Speaker 5: I see.

Robert Mugabe: That's not bad.

Jim: On the General Walls case, did he— do you think he has much of a following among the whites in Zimbabwe?

Robert Mugabe: Whatever the situation is, he is an enemy of the country. Whether he has a following or doesn't have it, I don't think he has a place in our community.

Jim: I see. The figure that I've read here, again, as you say, reports from outside journalists, but the figure I read today was that since you took office, some 5,000 whites have left the country. Is that basically a right figure?

Robert Mugabe: Well, that's the statistical figure which they give us, that some 5,000 or thereabout have left the country since Why have those people left, sir? I cannot say, but I think some of them just cannot accept the reality of an African government. They are racist in character, and naturally, to them, or to their type, we say good riddance. Others are perhaps frightened, and we are sorry about those ones. We are sorry for them, really, because they needn't be frightened about us. Our policy is one of trying to accommodate everybody and to ensure that all people are treated equally on a nonracial basis. Those— that is the category of people we are sorry about.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Robert Mugabe: Others are probably men, young men in their 30s or 40s, who are not quite sure whether they have a guaranteed future in the country. Again, they have certain concerns and fears and would want to establish themselves as quickly or as early in their life as possible.

Jim: Are you trying to give these people a guarantee about their future if they stay?

Robert Mugabe: Oh, we have tried to give them all the assurances possible, namely that we are not going to discriminate against any person on grounds of color or race, and that whites have a place and a role to play in our society.

Jim: What role would that be?

Robert Mugabe: Well, a normal role, depending on the skills which a person has.

Jim: What about the— you, in your budget, you have decided not to increase, as I understand it, the tax rate in the upper income brackets. And this was interpreted here again by outside journalists as a gesture on your part to these very whites that, look, you're not out to get them, you're not out to get them. Is that what you meant by that?

Robert Mugabe: Well, certainly yes. We do not want to make them feel that they are being discriminated against merely because they belong to the upper income group. And if we were to levy Onerous taxes on them. It might force them out of the country, or at least reduce their earning capacity, or the income that remains after the deductions. And they might feel that this is unfair, it is discrimination, it is aimed at the whites, and that government is Therefore, uh, not well disposed towards the whites.

Jim: I see. Thank you. Robin?

Robin: Prime Minister, you're going to see President Carter on Wednesday, and you've already said publicly that you're going to ask for more aid from the United States. Why is the aid the United States has offered so far— $20 million this year, $25 to $30 million next year— not enough?

Robert Mugabe: Obviously it isn't enough if you take that And pit it against the sum which the British and the Americans were talking about at the time of the Anglo-American proposals, $1 billion, you will realize that a mere $25 million or even $100 million falls far short of the target of $1 billion which we would require over a period to undertake effectively our development program.

Robin: Have the— do you feel that Britain and the United States have reneged on the promises they were making when they wanted you all to sign the ceasefire agreement and to come into line?

Robert Mugabe: I think other factors have intervened which probably have made it difficult for them to make as much contribution as they would have made, say, in 1978 or 1979, if we had got our independence then. I also believe that perhaps the fact that the original promise was made between The Carter government here, Carter administration, and the Labour government in Britain was responsible for the original figure. And with the Conservative government now in Britain, I think the tendency has been to regard that earlier promise as unrealistic, as one which the Labour government went into with the American administration. But I would want to feel that even though the will to give might exist, perhaps the realities of the economic situations in the 2 countries, and also the realities of a political situation in the United States, might be responsible for— The lack of—

Robin: Zimbabwe, the former Rhodesia, is one of the best-endowed nations in Africa in terms of resources and has one of the most promising and partly developed economies. Why do you need more aid? What would you use it for?

Robert Mugabe: That also is another factor. People look at our infrastructure and say, well, in terms of that economic infrastructure, We are better developed and more advanced than other economies in Africa, and we probably are not the worst beggars in Africa. There are others who are worse than ourselves. And why should we be seen to be requesting for concessionary loans or for—

Speaker 5: Aid?

Robin: Why should you?

Robert Mugabe: Well, certainly, that's the question. Why should we? Our country has gone through a very protracted period of armed struggle and of sanctions imposed against the regime. And there's been destruction to part of the infrastructure. I was talking a while ago of schools that went into disrepair, schools that were closed, hospitals that ceased to function, and of the need, therefore, to bring about the reconstruction of our economy. We have to We need to repair our economy, and we need funds. Then there is the question of the population, nearly 2.5 million to 3 million who were displaced because of the war. They have to be resettled. We need land. We need money for capital equipment. Those are some of the needs we feel, and there is no country which is in that most difficult position at present than ourselves.

Robin: How much of that need do you hope will be filled by private investment in your country, and how much by government aid?

Robert Mugabe: Well, see, private investment chooses where it wants to go. They— it chooses where it benefits it most to invest. It could be in the mining sector, it could be in the industrial sector, it could be in the agricultural sector. And so you cannot force it to—

Robin: To build new schools?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, to build new schools, to go public, as it were, to take the same direction as government. And this is the reason why we want aid from well-disposed countries, which we can utilize for purposes of public schemes, which are not quite the thing for private enterprise.

Robin: Do you include the Soviet Union among well-disposed countries?

Robert Mugabe: Ah, the Soviet Union has not yet indicated to us its position regarding aid, but we have made our appeal to everybody, including the Soviet Union. But we hope As and when it establishes its mission, we shall talk about aid quite positively.

Robin: Thank you. Jim?

Robert Mugabe: Thank you.

Jim: Mr. Prime Minister, why has the Soviet Union not established an embassy yet in Zimbabwe?

Robert Mugabe: Well, it's entirely up to them. We have invited them to send a delegation to discuss the question of their establishing a mission there, and if they would want They're welcome to establish one.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: But, of course, there are a number of things we would want to discuss with them, just as there were things we had to discuss with other governments before they established their missions. There are certain requirements we expect of a government or a state which establishes its mission on our territory, and we would naturally also want to discuss Those requirements with the Soviet Union.

Jim: It sounds to me, sir, like there's something specifically that's bothering you about the Soviet Union. Is there?

Robert Mugabe: Uh, no, nothing extraordinary, but, uh, relations have got to be discussed before they are established, and we haven't discussed them.

Jim: I see. Well, as you know, that one— as you may, may not know, the reports here in the United States have said that one of the reasons you've been reluctant to push ahead on establishing a relationship with the Soviet Union is because the Soviet Union helped out Mr. Nkomo during the guerrilla warfare rather than your side of the patriotic front. Is there anything to that?

Robert Mugabe: No, that's not the reason, really. There were quite a number of socialist countries which were more Better disposed towards ZAPU than ourselves, but we have, upon discussing the question of establishing relations with them, allowed them to go ahead and have embassies. The Soviet Union hasn't done that.

Jim: I see.

Robert Mugabe: What—

Jim: how would you characterize your relations right now with South Africa?

Robert Mugabe: The relations that exist The interests between our country and South Africa are those we have inherited. They are mainly in the sphere of— the economic sphere. And they have to do with our trade. They have to do with the exportation of our goods, the use of the transport system that passes through South Africa. And these, naturally, we will retain, because it would be unrealistic and it would be suicidal for us to try and stop them. So we can't sever that type of relation with South Africa. Then there are political and diplomatic relations. Well, we do not see these emerging at all. Our belief is that South Africa must not be associated with, politically and diplomatically, because of its apartheid philosophy, that the international community has a duty to pressurize on South Africa to bring about positive change. in its system so there can be established true democracy in the territory. And in our small way, we would want to add to the pressures of the international community by denying South Africa relations in the political and diplomatic fields.

Jim: But you have to continue economic relations. Is that what you're saying?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, economic relations will continue, certainly.

Jim: Would you hope to eventually sever those as well?

Robert Mugabe: I don't think you can sever completely relations with your neighbors, even if your neighbors are bad neighbors. But I think you can reduce your dependence on a bad neighbor.

Jim: Mr. Prime Minister, we just have a few seconds left. Everybody else has talked about what you've accomplished in 4 months. In a word, how do you feel about what you're— what How you have performed and how Zimbabwe has performed since you've been prime minister?

Robert Mugabe: I think we have done very well indeed. We inherited a situation which had all kinds of contradictions, some of them very antagonistic indeed. The whites were hostile to the blacks and the blacks hostile to the whites, and within the blacks They had been developed a certain group of puppets who worked against the interests of their own people. But these groupings no longer exist, and we have managed to instill into our population a sense of oneness and common loyalty.

Jim: Thank you, Mr. Hussain.

Robert Mugabe: We, we as Zimbabwe give support, political, diplomatic, and moral support to Cuba in its fight against the machinations of imperialists. You are with us on that one because we also have The same siege around us, and arising from the envy that the imperialists have for the beauty of our own country. The the the white farmers have channels they must. They are not superhuman beings. They have been talking to the vice president, who is in charge of the land acquisition program, Comrade Joseph Msika. They are not satisfied with that level of authority, and because they think. By virtue of their being British and being white, they are more divine than anyone else. Just by way of visiting it. Es muy apropiado que un país que ha hecho programs of development that we have we imperialism. El imperialismo is terrorism. And you will know from your own history, as we know from our own history, of imperialism through colonialism, that we suffered during the period of settler colonialism. And we suffered during the period of settler colonialism. The drought has created a situation of hunger across all our countries. We are trying our best to prevent people dying from hunger. Each and every one of our countries is trying its best. How are you going to prevent people from dying from hunger?

Speaker 5: Mr. President, land is the alpha and omega of the politics, the economy, and indeed the history of Zimbabwe. Before and after independence, land has been the central issue defining the national program of this country. Why is land such an important and emotive issue?

Robert Mugabe: Well, land is our creator. In other words, people like myself were born in the country, and we got attached to the land, because there was the livelihood of the country people, the peasants, and indeed the livelihood of even those who had drifted into town. It was on land that we had our residences of round huts, on land that we walked, land that we tilled for all that we ate, and on land that the grazing was for our cattle, goats, That was the life. Land is crucial. Land is part of me, part of others, part of our people. You can't detach yourself from land.

Speaker 5: Why the emphasis on land, and why not other means of production?

Robert Mugabe: Land comes first. Agriculture first. You must have land. You must take care of the resource that supplies you with total life first. The others come after. Yes, in an economy which is developed beyond a subsistence level, then you must look at other areas. Look at that which is grown on land, produced on land, as it gets added value.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Robert Mugabe: You have the value in the factories. Then you have the manufacturing sector. You must look also on land as a source of the minerals. So, to us, that entity, that resource, once it ceased to be ours, created a sense of deprivation, deep sense of deprivation. And as we— You know, looked back after colonialism had established itself, the greatest loss that was felt was that of land. And people talked of the land they had lost, lost to the white man. Shall it ever come back? And when we organized our struggle, the first of the grievances —was that of the loss of our land.

Speaker 5: So it was the main issue—

Robert Mugabe: The fight for land.

Speaker 5: It was the main issue when you waged the struggle.

Robert Mugabe: Yes.

Speaker 5: And again, if I'm correct, it was the main issue on the agenda at Lancaster House.

Robert Mugabe: It was the main issue. It became the main issue at Lancaster House, because of the very essence, very— that value that it has. Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker 5: President, we should go back to the drawing board and find out exactly what were the Lancaster House agreements with regard to land and redistribution of land.

Robert Mugabe: Lancaster House constitutional discussions Yes, centered on quite a number of areas of great importance to us. True, the land issue was crucial. The land issue was uppermost in our mind. But then the land had been lost to the whites. Yes. And we had to think of the best way of winning back the power that we had lost, the power over land. But when we looked at this land situation alone, it was now in the context of the loss of our sovereign rights. Sovereignty, then, was the first thing. Shall we have sovereignty? How shall we have it? We said we would have it through the barrel of the gun, after trying all the nonmilitary, nonviolent methods. We had to negotiate, of course, the modality that would lead us to Our recapturing, regaining our sovereignty. And that's what the Lancaster House Constitutional Conference was about. So, sovereignty first. One man, one vote, as we called it at the time, now one person, one vote.

Speaker 5: OK.

Robert Mugabe: Yes. And one man, one vote would naturally yield majority for us. And that would mean then a sovereign power coming back to us in that constitutional way, although the fight had been through a violent method. Yeah?

Speaker 5: What did the talks say?

Robert Mugabe: And then— yes. Then, as we discussed that whole issue Of sovereignty, how power shall unfold, what institutions we shall have— Parliament, the executive, the judiciary. We then wanted to dwell on the issue of how the ownership by the whites of our land will now be ceded to us. In other words, In other words, how we were going to get our land back.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Robert Mugabe: And it was recognized by the British government that, indeed, the issue of land was fundamental, was crucial. But then, the issue of how we would get it became the question. We said we wanted it back at the expense of the British, not at our own expense. In other words, we were not prepared to pay compensation for land that was seized from us without any purchase price being paid to our ancestors. So it was the obligation of the British To find money and compensate their kith and kin, who were owners, legal owners, of our land. We refused completely to carry that burden. And we were deadlocked on the matter. The Americans, the ambassador— and that was the Carter regime at the time, Carter administration— their ambassador in London—

Speaker 5: Yes.

Robert Mugabe: talked to Sonny Ramphal, who was the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth. America was prepared to fund the land reform program, and if our funds and those of Britain were put together, you would have an adequate fund.

Robin: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: But we shall also, together with the British, —appeal to the rest of the world, and especially Europe, you see, to assist you. So, it ended on that note. So, the Americans said— went further to say that what they wouldn't like to do or to be known is that we were giving you money for purposes Of helping you with land reform, including compensation. We will say it's land for— it's money for land reform, resettlement and development, without the compensation aspect, because the American national would not want to hear that money has come out of his pocket and gone —money into the pocket of a British citizen in Zimbabwe. That would create problems for us.

Speaker 5: So it was a question of the technical language.

Robert Mugabe: Just how we shall camouflage it. But how you will use it is entirely your issue. But from our point of view, that's the way we shall do it. OK? When that happened, and we talked to Lord Carrington, he said, yes, he understands America was going to give money. So, the issue is now resolved. But he still said, you might also want to, one of the weekends, to go to Brussels and talk to the EEC Commission, as it still was. It was at the time. And Nkrumah and I arranged to do that, and we flew on a Friday, one Friday evening, to meet members of the Commission. They also pledged, you know, assistance towards the land resettlement program.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: That is what happened at Lancaster, and this is how the deadlock was broken. Naturally, of course, nothing was written in detail about what had transpired. But we took for granted that everyone was a gentleman and what they had said would be realized in practice. Yeah. And that's how we proceeded. Fortunately for us now, Lord Carrington has, in the House of Lords about 2 months ago, reiterated— yeah, confirmed that yes, there was the undertaking to assist, which Blair has not accepted all along.

Speaker 5: Was then, after independence, money made available? Did the Thatcher Carter and the Reagan government subsequent to the Carter administration make funds available to enable you to proceed with the land distribution program.

Robert Mugabe: The first 2 or 3 years saw us receiving quite, I should say, significant flows of funds from the United States. States' own funding came first. The British funding was on what you might call a reluctant basis, hesitant basis. All of a sudden, the British wanted us to go about the business of funding. You know, the program, on a 50-50 basis. And they said they wouldn't produce their own £50 unless we had produced our side of that funding first. In other words, it was 50-50.

Speaker 5: You bring something to the table.

Robert Mugabe: We must bring first. It's as if now we were playing cards and gambling. You see? Put yours on the—

Speaker 5: Yes, yes, on the table.

Robert Mugabe: On the table, and I put mine. That was not fair. And we said, no, it had not been legal. But you see, this is how the British do it— sly and cunning and undependable in the extreme. So, we had to fight this. And it was only after 2 years that they now relented on it and said, OK, we will fund the process. At the end of the day, we didn't get much more than about 40— probably about £40 million from the Americans. Well, unfortunately, Carter lost the election that followed a year or two afterwards, after Lancaster. And in came Reagan.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: And Reagan was a strict character, rigid, didn't know very much. In a sense, he was quite an ignorant president, one of the most ignorant presidents America has had, because each time he spoke to you— and I happened to have been invited by him, you know—

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: Unless he had got the information on his cards, Mm-hmm. And he could read the card and answer you. His people would say, oh, no, he cannot answer that question, and then so on and so forth. And he was playing cards, you know, in discussing with you. And I joked about it in saying, you don't want to discuss with a man who is playing cards all the time.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: You see? So, he didn't know the situation. Carter did know. And Reagan also thought we were diehard communists.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: And on that basis, he stopped the aid that Carter, you know, had brought into being. His reasoning was that at the United Nations, we tended to support the Soviet Union and China more than we supported Right. When Bush succeeded him, Bush had visited us here, and we had handled him very well. We had become friends. He wrote a note to me to say, ah, let bygones be bygones, and let's start again, start afresh, start on a fresh slate. So, we tried to start on a fresh slate, but, no, there was very little that came back to us after we had lost power. And on the other hand, the British had stopped their aid. So we tried to negotiate with them, negotiate with Thatcher. We didn't succeed. When, later, Thatcher was out— And John Major. —and John Major came in, we started negotiations. And Major was understanding. He had been here. attending Cho Gum. And in 1995, '96, thereabouts, he agreed to send a team here to look at the situation here and hear our views across, you know, the gamut of our various opinions. And his 6-man team—

Speaker 5: 6 men.

Robert Mugabe: Wrote out a report which was very good, very favorable. And we expected that they— you know, sooner or later, the British would respond favorably. But then there came elections in Britain, and Major lost, and in came Blair. And Blair and the problems that, you see, have come out of him. With hindsight, Mr.

Speaker 5: President, What is your analysis? Do you think they were buying time?

Robert Mugabe: No. Major meant well, but he didn't have the time in which to fulfill, you know, his wish to assist. Blair— Blair was negative from the very beginning. He began by telling me, when we— the only moment we met, And discussed, and that was during Choggam in Scotland, telling me that he had a team looking at the issue and he would soon let us know what the position of his Labour government was. But they never came back to us. All we heard was, no, there is no responsibility, colonial responsibility, anymore.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: We asked no more, that Britain should discharge all that they owed us, was done in the past, and nothing more.

Speaker 5: So, when did the wheels exactly come off?

Robert Mugabe: They came off— they started coming off then. We then tried to, you know, educate them and to emphasize the issue and enlighten them in various ways and remind them of the obligations —that they had, especially of the promises and undertakings at Lancaster House. But, no, they wouldn't— they wouldn't listen to that. Clare Short said the only way they could assist our situation was if it fell under the poverty alleviation program that they were now, you know, building up.

Speaker 5: In fact, Mr. President, I would like to refer you to a letter that was written by the The British international development minister, Clare Short, whom you have just mentioned—

Robert Mugabe: That's right.

Speaker 5: —a letter written on the 5th of November, 1997—

Robert Mugabe: Yes.

Speaker 5: —to your minister of agriculture and land, the Honorable Khumbirai Kangai.

Robert Mugabe: That's right.

Speaker 5: In the letter, Ms. Short wrote, I should make it clear that we do not accept that Britain has a special responsibility to meet the costs of land purchase in Zimbabwe. We are a new government from diverse backgrounds, without links to former colonial interests. My own origins are Irish, and as you know, we were colonized and not colonizer. It went on and on and on— Thank you. —concluding by saying, I am told there were discussions in 1989 and 1996 to explore the possibility of further assistance. However, That is all in the past, suggesting that the matter was closed. How was this received by your government?

Robert Mugabe: Very badly. It was a negative response to an issue that was very, very— shall I say— a dynamo here, which is explosive. In the sense that the issue of land has been the one grievance in our bosoms that we hoped Britain, working together with us and doing so positively, would help us, you know, have a remedy to. But the grievance went on. And, of course, we said, when she wrote us to this effect, that, ah, so this is the negative attitude. Fine. This is a government which knows no rules, doesn't accept the law of succession as it obtains in international law.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: Because the successor government must— Under the obligations. Obligations, as indeed it must enjoy the assets of its predecessor. And so, they had apparently no rules, no principles. So we said, fine, if they're going to behave that way, We will also here ignore completely the issue of our adhering to principles of compensation of the farmer. So, we will take our land. They keep their money. We keep our land.

Speaker 5: So, take our land by force or whatever means?

Robert Mugabe: Well, that's how we said we would proceed now. We would pay compensation only for improvements, anything that one can call developmental on the farm— an irrigation scheme, dam, fencing, homestead— we'll pay compensation for, but not for the land itself, the market value of the land, no. And that is what we said we would do. And you have done that? We were then going to have a new constitution. And in that constitution, we wanted the issue of compensation, which had existed in the Lancaster House Constitution, to be amended, so it could read that compensation will only Be paid— sorry, adequate compensation will only be paid upon adequate funds being made available by the former colonial power. When it was put to the country, the whites almost all rallied behind the opposition to— and opposed it, merely because of that compensation amendment, regarding compensation. They didn't believe it. And we began to wonder why they would refuse compensation, because they didn't want the land to go at all.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: So, we read, as they rallied openly behind the opposition and gave it— was giving it funds and were giving it funds, that they were not— For us, they were, for land remaining in their hands. And even before we sat here as the party or as government to, you know, put our program together of acquiring land now, the war veterans, on their own, using their own associations, started operating and going in onto farms and seizing. Without any promptitude from us. And we said, fine, good. They fought for freedom, and it was freedom with the land as the gain, the major gain. They wanted us to use our police. I said, no, we will not use our police at all. These are demonstrations. Right.

Speaker 5: But as government, wasn't there a way of dissuading the war veterans—

Robert Mugabe: No.

Speaker 5: —and pursue the legal route?

Robert Mugabe: The British had never used the legal route to seize our land, you see. So, we started being political, blatantly political. They had taken the land from us without using any legal rules at all. It was a seizure by the settlers, settlers acting on the strength of a charter given them by Queen Victoria. They got our land, occupied it by force. We are now going to take it by force. We did that.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Robert Mugabe: And we were entitled to do it as a government. The land is ours. They had refused to provide money for compensation. The only course was for us to take our land back and say to them, fine, if your kith and kin want compensation, you give it to them. We can't give compensation to them, because, in the first place, those of them who acquired the land from us didn't pay for it. That was— that became now— That is now the issue. And Blair has tried to fight the issue from his side, now using Europe as allies, and say, etc., etc. But we say the land is ours. Here we were born. Here our ancestors lie in graves.

Speaker 5: Here—

Robert Mugabe: Our progeny will find their existence. It is Zimbabwean soil, Zimbabwean land, and must come to us.

Speaker 5: Thank you, Mr. President. And by the way— Let's take a short break. We'll be back in a short while.

Robert Mugabe: Please don't go away.

Speaker 5: Thank you for joining us. We are having an interview with the president of Zimbabwe, His Excellency President Robert Mugabe. Why have most African countries failed to advance from political power to complete economic emancipation?

Robert Mugabe: Well, for a number of reasons. One, although you got your political power, you did not inherit with it the means The economic means— the people are poor, the people are illiterate. How do you get development to take effect in those circumstances? You then must open yourselves up to investment from outside. And investment from outside, whilst It has the benefit of adding to your resources a new resource by way of capital. It has also the disadvantage of control by foreigners. So, that is that. In our own formerly colonized countries— ourselves, South Africa, Mozambique—

Speaker 5: Namibia.

Robert Mugabe: Namibia. We have to grapple with control by settlers who may not look at the same— at issues in the same way as you do. Their objective might just be self-aggrandizement. In other words, they want to enrich themselves the whole way through. The objectives that you have in regard to enlightenment and raising of the literacy rate And eradicating disease and creating a social environment where people interact and therefore benefit by, you know, that interaction, that these are not necessarily their objectives.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: And so altruism doesn't exist on their part. The leadership has got to question itself. Cause empowerment of the people in those circumstances. And we are glad in South Africa there is that program of empowerment. Here we have it. We may call it indigenization, but it's empowerment nevertheless. And here we have said the resource that comes first in the process of empowerment is that of land. If the people have their land and they are assisted in having The means with which to till that land, the fertilizers—

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: —inputs like seed, etc., tillage, they can become rich, or at least improve their condition of wealth, by— in a matter of a year, a season. You grow today. You sell tomorrow after three, four months, five months, six months, and you have now some income. So you have to build you know this process of enriching people by getting them to have incomes and incomes in a country that is just got its independence. In my view, if it was like our country, with land as a resource, good rains and hardworking people, that country would then emphasize agriculture first and foremost. But it depends, of course, on the situation and on what the natural resources that are Yours, maybe, but in our own environment here, and indeed in most African environments, agriculture must come first.

Speaker 5: Mr. President, I want to add another dimension to this whole subject of political independence and economic emancipation by drawing parallels between Ghana after independence in the '60s and Zimbabwe today. When Nkrumah tried to set the economic emancipation of his people in motion through the integrated industrial project, the Volta River Project, the colonial powers stopped him in his tracks. And eventually, I mean, his government was overthrown in a plot that was hatched By the CIA, with the assistance of Britain and France. Are there lessons from the past to be learned?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, sure.

Speaker 5: Are there similarities?

Robert Mugabe: There are similarities. There is always, on the part of our former colonizers, the perennial desire to retain control over us. And to manipulate our economies in their own interests, to their own advantage. And this is what happened in Ghana, especially in the context of the bipolarity we had between, you know, capitalism and socialism or communism, where it was feared that newly developed— developing countries will tend to gravitate towards socialism or communism rather than create an environment of capitalism. In other words, rather than continue the former colonial environment in which capitalism can thrive. And, and I happen to have been teaching in Ghana then, 1958. To '59, to '60.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Robert Mugabe: And that was the height of Nkrumahism then. And Nkrumah was trying all this. And I happened to have seen what Nkrumah was trying to do. Yes, he tried his best, but he did not have a united people. If there is no unity in the country and the people are divided, the less progressive element in that scenario of division will tend to rely more on outsiders. And we have that situation here. You can see what's happening here. It's precisely the same as— the same scenario as we found in Ghana.

Speaker 5: I want to illustrate the point further, Mr. President, if you may. If you would indulge me, I want to refer to the American government documents, which were declassified at the end of 1999, but recently made public. The documents show that the American government started talking about Nkrumah's overthrow 2 full years before the actual event.

Robert Mugabe: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: And the strategy As the State Department asserted was— and I want to quote from the documents again— intensive efforts should be made through psychological warfare and other means to diminish support for Nkrumah within Ghana and nurture the conviction among the Ghanaian people that their country's welfare and independence necessitated his removal. Sure. And the other point The strategy was crack the back of Ghana's economy and make her weak. Now, I turn to Zimbabwe today. Are there any similarities?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, yes, yes. Oh, yes. Quite an analogy that you have given us. And this is what they are trying to do— diminish support for the ruling party, the liberation movement, and crack the back of the economy. Precisely what they are trying to do, except that now we are a little wiser, having seen the experiences other countries have gone through. But of course, they will always try, you know, coup d'états. In the end, it was more the the disaffection of the army that won the day for them, and so Nkrumah being overthrown. And you had to to To rely, therefore, on the most loyal of your people, your forces.

Speaker 5: When is the curtain finally coming down on the land redistribution program?

Robert Mugabe: It will never come down.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: It is— what has come, will come down, is the stage. Well, like in any drama, and you have the scenes, of course, and the acts. Act 1, yes, the curtain will fall. Act 2 is about development, but there will still be the elements from Act 1 that will persist. People, new people, few though in number now, wanting land. And of course, because we continue to —to beget children.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: And the new ones, the demand continues to grow. But it will not grow in that geometrical way, if you want— more arithmetical, if you want to put it in mathematical terms.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: And this is what you get. So, we are now at a stage where most of the people have got the land, but we still have There are a substantial number of those who have not been resettled here and there. We have the A1 and A2. A1 aims at giving homes, residential places, with areas to farm, areas to graze and areas for the home. That's A1.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: And under definite chiefs, under definite traditional leaderships. About making money, land for making money, commercial land. So this is— And this is the one which is not yet as complete as A1. And we will proceed with it. But the demand will not be as great as it was in the past. But the demand that we are going to face now is developmental. Inputs— how can we afford inputs? Make, you know? People economically wealthy, let them derive now wealth from the land that they have. This is now the issue, the development of the land in order to benefit the land user and, indeed, the landowner.

Speaker 5: The criticism on the land issue, that land is given only to your cronies and not to the landless majority?

Robert Mugabe: And who believes that? You see, who would believe that? How do I really give land to just my cronies, when the majority of the people, you see, are in the country? We only know their identity, political identity, when we meet and when we have rallies. But they are— A mixture of all tribes, religions, various backgrounds, political persuasions and so on and so forth. And you can't go into the rural area to people under a chief and say, only those of ZANU must be given land. Those who belong to the MDC or don't belong to any party, either of these parties, should not get any land. We do not believe in apartheid. We did not have time for that. The chiefs had their own lists everywhere. Anyone who needed land gave his name or the name of his own son or daughter. And this is what happened. That's how we have given land.

Speaker 5: And— Members of the opposition?

Robert Mugabe: There are people who have been denied. Yes, and members of the opposition. Well, Shimon Mubei has got a farm, and there are others, too, with farms. We— the schools we run, the education we give, do we discriminate? I run a program, a Fort Hare program, of students, in order to— for sentimental reasons, and for good reasons also, historical— to keep us in touch with Fort Hare, which has produced, you know, quite a good many leaders for our country, and to keep in touch—

Speaker 5: And the continent.

Robert Mugabe: Yes, and the continent. So, I run a scholarship there. You have a Tangerai boy there. He is there. Does the government get any benefits from this? Yes, yes, yes, it benefits from the program. It's a government program. The scholarships are given by the government. And we just look at the results and then the recommendations that are made by the governors in the various provinces, and we give them that. No, this is just to try and demean the program and try to, you know, to demolish it. It's beyond the stage when— where demolition of it can take place. It's actually now well-rooted, well-grafted.

Speaker 5: Let's look at the economy, Mr. President. Some say you have mismanaged the economy, and they talk about the chronic shortage of fuel, food and the —high inflation rate. What is your response to that?

Robert Mugabe: Of course, I say that's nonsense, absolute nonsense. Yes, we are going through difficulties, and mainly because of 2 factors, 2 elements. One, the phenomenon of drought, and droughts, you know, coming in succession. Well, first we had the cyclone Eline, which devastated our country, part of our country. We had droughts 2 years in succession. Even last year, we had a drought up to December, but the rains started falling well in January. Then, of course, you— well, our country, the economy, relying more— On agriculture. On agriculture. You know, our factories all are agricultural-based, by and large. And so, if agriculture fails, then, of course, it undermines— that failure undermines also the manufacturing sector. Then, of course, the sanctions, the sanctions that have been imposed, although they say the sanctions that have been imposed on us are personal sanctions, the travel sanctions and so on. That's not telling the truth. The British have not wanted to fund the programs they were funding earlier on. The Americans have withdrawn their funding. And there has been an appeal to various of our donors, by Britain, in broad daylight. And it's against the international rules, but they have done it, gone to various countries in the European Union. —to say, no, no, funds should not be given to Zimbabwe to strengthen the regime of Mugabe, which is dictatorial, and so on. There has been this withdrawal of funds. But we have managed. The wonder is actually that we have managed, to this day, to be on our feet. And there won't come a day when we will really say, ah, now we are gone, we have collapsed.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: We are dead, a dead people. Never. As long as we have our land and as long as we are simple in our needs, we will survive. We survived during the struggles. We were eating very little, in some cases actually eating, you know, fruits in the forest, war veterans. But we managed. People were herded into keeps. It was difficult times we had. The times we have now, difficult though they are, are not comparable to the times our people went through as the liberation struggle was being fought, with sanctions on Smith. The situation is much better. If you look at what has happened over years, through Through our education system, we have empowered our people. And you have young people who have developed the— you know, to the level where they are millionaires now in the financial sector, the economic sector. They are the— oh, many rich people here. But it is the majority of the people at the bottom. And it continues to be the peasants—

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: —who are having a raw deal at the moment. And the peasants would still continue, in spite of the hardships, to support the party, the party which liberated them. We never depended on the sugar people in the urban areas, you know, for our struggle. It was these people, hardy, you see, who believed that this struggle had to do with With the— their regaining their land. Who supported us right through? And that's the difference between our struggle and your struggle. In your— in respect of your struggle, it is the urban people who played a part, because, of course, after 300 years, you are more highly industrialized than ourselves.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Robert Mugabe: But here, no. It's the minority. The minority in the urban areas, the majority in rural areas. And these are the people we depend on. Yeah. But for that matter, a Zimbabwean in Arare or Bulawayo or Gweru will not— never tell you that his home is in those places. No. He always points to his home being in Guto, Vhuhira, Gwanda. Etc. That is because we are not yet as industrialized as you, as yourselves, as other— that will come later.

Speaker 5: Of concern is the inflation rate rising up to 269%. I mean, sure, why has the Reserve Bank allowed the situation to get out of hand? I mean, the Reserve Bank governor—

Robert Mugabe: I must admit there that we have in our situation —economists and these highly educated experts on finance and so on, who think a situation, troubled as it is, you know, must be handled or addressed in the same way as a normal situation.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Robert Mugabe: No, it's— there is no real hardship here that demands that they change their rules. So they stick to bookish rules and bookish norms of handling the economic situation. We are in a state of emergency. We have said this is actually a state of war. It's a state of war. And in a state of war, you've got to use measures that address the situation, looking at the very vital points that need to be addressed. Well, we have allowed them to go about it that way, but we are going to overhaul the system soon. Zimbabwe this week has seen the final push I don't know what they meant by describing it as the final push. The final push has failed totally, if it was meant to be a push at all. It has not been a push. I think it's a very good question. Push of the government meant to create room for Tangerine to take over. On the contrary, it has been a push in reverse. So who has pushed who? That is the, the answer that we want to— the question to be answered. It was, of course, erroneous in the extreme to think that the opposition could come together, organize people illegally, and get them to push the government out.

Speaker 5: Of course.

Robert Mugabe: That was an illusion, complete illusion, unless that they knew it was It was not going to be a push, but just a matter of doing something that would receive the attention of the G8. It was just some drama for the G8 that they wanted, but a drama in which the main characters have failed to impress anyone.

Speaker 5: Hasn't this, though, provided an opportunity to see how the government could engage the opposition party and other stakeholders in the country meaningfully and find a way of resolving the problems that Zimbabwe is facing.

Robert Mugabe: We are open. We have expressed ourselves as desirous, actually, of dialogue. But it must be meaningful dialogue. You can't dialogue on issues that are still pending. —in court and requiring the decision of the court. They have gone to court, and we have said, either you withdraw the case in court regarding the legitimacy of my government, legitimacy of myself— —or you wait until the court has decided on the issues that you have placed before the judges. So, you can't have it both ways. So, we are saying dialogue, yes. But you dialogue about what, with people who do not recognize that you're legitimate?

Speaker 5: So, if court cases were withdrawn, then do you think dialogue would actually start?

Robert Mugabe: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. We said that, yes, we'll start dialogue. We can talk to anybody. We can talk to the MDC anytime. We are not afraid to talk. We— mind you, we have had a history of dialogue in this country. There was a time, in 1980 to '83, when the ZANU-ZAPU were in conflict with each other. But we were dialoguing all the time, until, in December '87, we had the unity accord between ZANU-PF— between ZANU and ZAPU. And now we have ZANU-PF, and we are united, which is very good. And we dialogue, yes. We do. We dialogue with even the religious groups and would want to assure them that, no, there is the need for us to keep the church and state together, working together. We dialogue with the traditional leaders. We dialogue with any other groups. The women, for example, the gender issues, we've been dialoguing with them, regardless of the parties to which they belong. And why should we not dialogue with Tsvangirai? But, you see, they want to dialogue with Blair and the English, dialogue with the Americans, dialogue with outsiders, against their own government, and do not look at the need for the Zimbabweans themselves to dialogue with each other in a realistic way, in order to get a solution to their problem. If we need a new constitution, well, as indeed it was said before the year 2000, that a new constitution was necessary for the country, we dialogued. When we agreed to have a referendum, they rejected it, the draft constitution that was presented to the nation. But if they want a similar dialogue, we can have And there is nothing wrong about it. But dialoguing, of course, should not be between parties, one of which is holding, you know, an axe, to put it in our African analogous terms, one holding an axe over you or a spear towards you, or holding a gun at— pointing a gun at you. No, it must be dialogue of persons who believe —believe that they belong, they have that common belonging to the country, and therefore would want to see a solution evolve through dialogue that can satisfy all the parties. And we are open, yes, on that one, certainly. And we remain open. We have said so to our mediators, President Obasanjo and President Mbeki. And they have been helping us immensely on this subject.

Speaker 5: OK.

Robert Mugabe: But, of course, their appeal to the MDC not to resort to mass action, not to resort to violence, has not yielded fruit. But we ask them to continue to appeal to them. And it's sad when we are forced, as government, you see, to have to use tear gas against our own youth, who are being misled. But we have to do it in the interests of peace and security. But we don't— we don't want to make our people suffer. We suffered enough during colonial times and during independence. We want our people to be free, express their free views and feel that the country belongs to them, that they have a stake, like everybody else in the country.

Speaker 5: Finally, Mr. President, next year you'll be turning 80.

Robert Mugabe: Yes.

Speaker 5: And what are your immediate future plans?

Robert Mugabe: Yes, as I get younger and younger and— I also get the ambition, the ambition to retire. I don't know when it will come. But I don't want to retire in a situation where people are disunited, where certain of our objectives will not have been achieved, and retire against a background of division. No. That's why I've said the succession issue should be discussed.

Speaker 5: OK.

Robert Mugabe: —in a harmonious way, openly. And if it points the way forward, well and good. But if it's going to go cause division, as it is tending to do at the moment, then one says no to it. However, the choice— the choice is that of the people. I was chosen last year.

Speaker 5: Right.

Robert Mugabe: I mean, elected last year. And it would be nonsensical for me, a year after being elected, to resign. The people would say, ah, why you put us through all this, you know, much ado, and much ado about nothing? And there you're going. No. And, of course, against the background of these attacks, these pressures from the British, the British should let us—

Speaker 5: Yes.

Robert Mugabe: Free, refrain from exerting pressures, and the Americans with them do the same. But as long as there is that fight— I am for a fight. I'm getting younger, as I told you, and I still can punch. Mm-hmm.