Struggle Session 9 w/Corinna Mullin, Mtume Gant & Ambereen Dadabhoy

Adnan Husain: Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Salaam, hello, peace to you all and welcome to the program. Another edition after a bit of a hiatus of the struggle session live stream panel. For some of you, and I see already in the chat, please do like the stream, share it on your social media. We're on X as well as YouTube. If you're watching on X, very easy, just retweet it. uh and subscribe to the channel but i see a lot of people already who were in the chat on the live stream i'm just coming from which was the tanki group therapy live stream so like me uh spending my afternoon online talking with comrades i mean what could be better so in fact it's actually really wonderful to be uh with this great panel um and um you know before i mention anything further is just you know struggle sessions you know hopefully you feel better after tenki therapy you know therapy should help you feel more healthy more whole you know and all that i've got some bad news for you potentially the struggle sessions aren't here to make you feel better we might make you feel worse when we get into the realities but what we really want to do is motivate you to be engaged be involved and be active you know as We always have to deal with the issue of pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will. We try and find both those things in the course of our discussion and analysis. I'm looking forward to your questions and comments. Please post them in the chat. We'll try and get to some of them. Um, but also, you know, to say that, um, you know, also paraphrasing Marx, you know, he said that, uh, the philosophers have studied the world, you know, um, they've interpreted the world, but of course the point is to change it. So we're going to be doing some interpreting of the world, but we hope, you know, we might also give you some thoughts and directions and you might as well have suggestions in the chat there and in our audience about how we can work together to change the world. So without further ado, I want to welcome a really fantastic panel. I'm so much looking forward to this discussion with a couple of new people and a returning struggle sessioner. Ambreen Dadaboy is returning. I think you were on the first or maybe the second struggle session ever. And so I'm so delighted to welcome you back, Ambreen. It's great to see you. And I should tell people who you are that you're an associate professor of literature at Harvey Mudd College and that you are author of a wonderful book, Shakespeare Through Islamic Worlds, that we did an episode on where we talked with you about your research. And I encourage people both to go buy the book and check out the episode. So it's great to see you, Ambreen. And we also have new guest Karina Mullen, new to this program and to the struggle session, though we did a wonderful episode on guerrilla history about, you know, Karina's excellent contribution to an important book that just grows in significance and important sanctions as war. And you are an anti-imperialist scholar who teaches international politics and political economy at CUNY. And you're one of the founding members of the Anti-Imperialist Scholars Collective. And you've been involved in a lot of other kind of activism, you know, within the academy and without. And and you're also an editor of Science and Society and a wonderful online kind of publication. The pen is my my machete. I think a publication of the Anti-Imperialist Scholars Collective. And I believe I'm supposed to actually eventually guest edit a, you know, an edition of that. So I'm really looking forward to collaborating with that with that collective. Karina, it's great to have you on. Thank you for coming. And last but not least, Umtume Gant, who is just a kind of multi-format, fantastic scholar, professor of film. and also a filmmaker and author of many books a podcast host within our gates and many of you may know uh him from his um continuing series that he does uh with uh jared on millennials are killing capitalism the wonderful film and pop culture anti-imperialist uh series the imperial 80s uh toomey it's great to have you on Great to be here. Great. Thank you. All right. Well, you know, let's get into it. You know, I think the Iran war is sort of top of mind and it's been going through so many undulations of active, you know, military conflict to these on again, off again, ceasefires and the um you know on again off again um restriction on the uh straight of hormuz so i just wanted to kind of open it up and see you know what people are noticing at this moment after you know now that we're sort of day 50 of the conflict uh you know sometimes though we call it the ramadan war or the 40-day war because you know on the 40th day there was announced that there would be some kind of a you know, kind of ceasefire for a period. So, you know, what are your reflections at this point from whatever vantage, you know, makes sense to you? And maybe, you know, let's start with Karina. I don't know if you have some thoughts on this.

Corinna Mullin: Sorry, sorry. I'm so sorry. I was dealing with and my phone might ring in the background. I'm so sorry about that. My daughter stole my phone right before and she has a conference call, I think, going on with friends.

Adnan Husain: So no worries.

Corinna Mullin: The background. Yes. So you were asking about could you repeat the question, Adnan? Well,

Adnan Husain: It's really just open, like, you know, what reflections you have, you know, given that a lot has happened over the last month and more. We're on day 50. But, you know, really, I've been having a lot of programs on Iran, but I haven't had a chance to talk publicly. with all of you and also it's been a week since i had any real program on it and a week is one of these you know kind of categories that as we know from the fake lenin quote where you know decades happen it just definitely feels like that every week so i'm wondering what you're thinking is salient right now and how you're thinking about you know what's been happening in this in this um you know in this phase of the ramadan war as it were

Corinna Mullin: Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that question. And thank you for having me on the program. And we will definitely be following up with you about the pen is my machete special issue. And it's a real honor to be here with some with all these amazing panelists, too. So, yeah, I guess. In terms of what's been going on with Iran most recently, we can say we can think about the broader sort of issues around decolonization of the region that I think many scholars and organizers have been pointing to. And of course, people from the region and from Iran thinking about how This current moment is so important for Iran, most importantly for the West Asian region in terms of the challenges that have been posed to U.S. imperialist and Zionist interventions in the region, hegemony in the region. The attacks on the military bases, the attacks on the flows of capital. I know you've had both Nina Farnia and Naveed Farnian before who have made some really important interventions on this and thinking about the broader implications for capitalism. And, you know, U.S. domination, Western domination of the global economy and really the attacks on the flows of capital, not just on the flows of oil and the other derivative products that come from oil. and that are being blocked from the Strait of Hormuz because of the sort of de facto, what Nina Varnia talks about is the sort of de facto nationalization of the Strait of Hormuz. And despite the attempts of Trump and the U.S. Epstein ruling class here in the belly of the beast to try and reverse this nationalization and repress uh gain access to the straight up hormones through these um you know constant um threats of aggression and the most recent one this morning which is um egregious um more sort of implicating the trump administration in uh war crimes you know essentially saying you know and this is what we've been seeing all along bombing back to this stone age bombing um refineries um infrastructure everything that the administration is claiming it's not as if u.s empire hasn't uh threatened this or done this in many parts of the world before but the fact that they are so open about it now um is you know it's it's really a reflection of where we are in terms of the decline of u.s empire and you know to you cited earlier our comrade gramsci um And I think, you know, we should also think about, you know, the what was it, the optimism of the will, pessimism of the intellect. Of course, he also talked about the time of monsters, that period in between the fall of the old regime and the emergence of a new regime. of a new world, which is essentially what is being birthed right now, thanks to the Iranian resistance and the broader resistance of West Asia, the axis of resistance. Hezbollah still fighting strong in Lebanon, despite the atrocious imperialist Zionist assault on the country and the selling out of the government there. and the constant violations of this so-called ceasefire. Of course, the role of Yemen as well, and Ansar Allah, and the Palestinian resistance really, which has done so much to transform the region. So there's a major tectonic shifts underway, and we can talk about this. later, you know, de-dollarization, the emergence of alternative financial and economic architecture and how Iran's role is escalating, really accelerating this process. of global transformation and de-linking. But I think for now, I would just say that, I just was watching press TV before coming on the program and just so impacted by seeing millions of people on the street. That courage, that dignity, Of the Iranian people in the face of this horrific imperialist assault really has transformed the world. Iran has the Islamic Republic of Iran has won already. And I, you know, I just like to start by saying that.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, excellent remarks and put a lot on the table, because indeed, I completely agree with you that I think it touches upon so many other issues and processes. This is really potentially, you know, world transforming events we're involved in. One thing may be worth also talking about, since you talked about some of the other fronts and parts of the what is often called the axis of resistance is also the real insistence of Iran and those people in the streets after the horrific attacks in Lebanon on that bloody Wednesday when the ceasefire was being mooted and there was controversy around whether it included Lebanon or not. And I was obviously clear that it had meant to. But, you know, there were other, you know, factors at play is that those people came and demanded continuing to link and connect all of these struggles together, which I think is just really amazing and interesting. Anyway, Umtume, I'm wondering if you have any thoughts you want to build on here or other directions that you would take us in thinking about this situation.

Mtume Gant: Yeah. I mean, there's tons. But one of the things that I've been tracking, I think, has been of interest to me is just this expression that I see of the crisis of liberalism globally. Like liberalism is in crisis. You know, it's like a child acting out, you know, or someone who's had power for far too long. you know, and this is not just Iran. This is this is this is Cuba. This is Venezuela. And the reaction is towards China. And, you know, if you think about Iran, which, you know, for as long as I can remember, there's always been this. I mean, I was born in 1980. So the year after the, you know, the revolution. So you're You're born in under this constant understanding that one day there'll be this confrontation, but it's always kind of punted. It's mythologized, some kind of clash of civilization type of thing, you know, that exists in like the ethers of possibility. So, you know, people like Hegseth and Trump, who are like these strange mythologists on their own way, they, you know, Trump's a TV guy. So he's constantly thinking about things in these kind of like epic kind of ways. So this, you know, attack on Iran is very much an expression to me that they understand that they are in crisis, but they're also their fundamental miscalculation. They think that they can go in there, right? Attack the people of Iran and that they're just going to like flake off you know like it was just going to just you know diminish or you know i mean and and the other part of it i think if it is when i see the crisis of liberalism i'm also thinking about you know the various people even on the left who who won't embrace iran Right. Liberals who won't embrace Iran. They won't embrace Iranian resistance. And they'll go, oh, you know what, man, they should have they should have done something different. They'll be done and they'll be done in a week. I mean, I literally I'm repeating things that I've heard people say. This is not like, you know, me making something up. And no, the axis of resistance has stood firm. So like so like to the point of seeing people in the streets defending their land, you know, defending their sovereignty has been confirming of. the fact that liberalism is in crisis because the rest of the planet is awakening or has been on a long awakening or has continued that awakening from this long struggle that we've been in this protracted struggle that we've been in against it and You know, it's like being in conversation with comrades on the left to pay attention to Iran, to Venezuela, to Cuba, to Palestine and saying, what are they doing? What what is it about? Whether it's the ideology, something within how they're structuring things that we can begin to analyze and understand and really understand. use as a kind of way to think about this next moment as because the thing about it is, you know, we're in this crisis moment in the planet. We have real issues here, climate, AI, all this type of stuff that's that that's happening. And this resistance is part of understanding that that totality will destroy the planet. I do totally believe that they understand that. Right. So it's like, we got to get on that lane. So I'm constantly trying to like synthesize, take, how do I keep myself within that? Get other people to understand that that resistance literally has to be part of any resistance that would happen here within the imperial core. Right. You have to have a synthesis, this kind of, um, armchair Marxist or armchair, whatever, sit on the side, kind of finger wave at them and wait and say, you know, wait for us to get it together here in the Imperial Corps stuff is not going to manage anything. It's not going to work. They're not waiting for us. They should not be. They never have. That's the other thing that I think people need to get in their head. That's the thing that I've been seeing. It's just this crisis and fascism. Walter Rodney talked about You know, it was in How Europe Underdeveloped Africa that fascism being a deformity of liberalism. Right. So I always think of a deformity means that like it's something within you that becomes like, you know, like like disgusting and it makes you it just overtakes you and then suddenly you become deformed. Right. So it is within liberalism. it's in, it's within it. So we're seeing its expression when it's in crisis, right? It's like, it's, you know, it's, it's that moment when they know they're falling apart and they have to kind of up the ante. And as they're having their, you know, inner squabbles between each other, you know, when Musk is arguing with Trump, this is just an argument between them or even Obama. Let's, let's not, let's not leave the Democrats out of it. Biden, these are just, an argument within them how to maintain hegemony. You know, and I think it's gonna be really important in this next few months when like midterms and stuff come up here and the Democrats start acting like they've never been a part of anything imperial in their life and all that type of stuff to kind of remind people what is happening here. And this is about America, this is about US imperialism, right? The West and their dominance and the fact that they think liberalism is the summit of society and that we actually can't go beyond that. Right. That they just have to kind of like correct it a little bit, you know, and like, you know, rub it around and, you know, make it more inclusive to people who are not white. So that's kind of what I've been really thinking about. But Iran as like a key place to kind of hone in on and understand. Right. Like on my level, like, look, y'all doing it. I need to sit back and learn from y'all. And really take them in as not and not in a fetishized way, but also not in like this dismissive way that I see people do like really as revolutionary subjects in a revolutionary in what needs to be a revolutionary time.

Ambereen Dadabhoy: Yeah, just to follow up on some of the things that have been said, I've been thinking a lot about and people I'm online a lot. So this has been said by folks online, but just about what Iran accomplished in 40 days of self-defense. Like in 40 years of diplomacy, it wasn't able to get concessions in this way, right? Which tells us something about resistance, right? The West responds to armed resistance because its only language is violence. And so it can only understand that. And certainly alongside violent resistance, armed resistance to occupation, to violence, to invasion, which seems to be an international... internationally guaranteed right, we have other forms of resistance that we're seeing too, symbolic resistance in the form of these protests, in the form of Iranian leaders walking the streets among their people, which you don't see. You know, there was a report a few weeks ago about like so many higher ups in Trump's administration, like quietly moving onto bases because they were afraid of being attacked. And who is going who is going to attack you? You're afraid of facing your constituents, which would be the only people that you're afraid of, right? And the fact that we can see these things on our phones shows the rest of the world, I think, and especially it shows Americans that there is, in fact, a different way. And the other thing that I've been thinking of is that Americans... and Westerners in general, let me include Canadians too, are so propagandized in terms of liberalism, in terms of what, you know, that the axis of resistance is the axis of evil, or, you know, as Bush famously phrased it during the war on terror, And they're actually seeing with their own eyes, in fact, that that is not the case because they're recognizing that they are, in fact, the people who are perhaps the evil empire. And it's sort of wonderful to see, but it's also to get people on board with resistance in all of the ways, in all of the things that resistance means, not just sort of holding a sign at a a rally that you have for no Kings, like what are your demands? What are the things that you're actually telling your government instead of sort of you know, having a nice parade, which is important, which I'm glad millions of people were out there. But again, what is the material thing that follows up on it? And it seems like what Iran has revealed is that there are material demands to be made. And the other thing I think has been revealed to many Americans is that theoretically they know that they have international bases, but perhaps they don't know how many they have. And how concentrated they are in certain places and like, why do we have them? And so it's great that you have a America first administration revealing how America first is not a real thing. Right. That like that is just a talking point. And in fact, America first always means oppression of people over there. And that that's the only way we can arrive at an America first ideology. The other thing I've been thinking about a lot is Pakistan, because we're just related to this because I'm Pakistani. And, you know, we don't have very many things to feel proud of sometimes that clearly a state, also a state in decline in a lot of ways because of so many coups, mismanagement, US interference, all of these things. But Pakistan coming out as a kind of leader or like a mediator in a geography where India has tried to undermine whatever kind of political capital and currency that Pakistan could have. has been, it's not necessarily that it's made me proud to be Pakistani, certainly during our, which is very contradictory for me, but during our summer war with India, I was very proud to be Pakistani. But here, right, the fact that Pakistan is able to, Flex its muscle a little bit. And why can it do that? Because Pakistan has a nuclear weapon. Right. Again, when we come back to the language that the West understands, it seems to be that that that is the thing that it understands. At some point, I hope today that we will also talk about the Pope. And Pete Hegseth's Bible quote, but I'm just going to stop here for right now.

Adnan Husain: Well, definitely that's on the agenda. I thought I might be the only one who wanted to talk about the Pope and all that. But maybe, you know, we'll stick with this a little bit, but definitely put a pin and come back to that. I think that's interesting when we talk about what's going on in Christianity. know domestically in the us uh kind of the politics of religion and religious culture in in in all this but um i'm so glad that you mentioned uh pakistan because you know in hosting these um negotiations such as it was one night in islamabad i think is what we we said on our iran versus the Epstein Empire series. That was one of the possible titles for the most recent episode because it was just so absurd how, you know, the U.S. really couldn't keep up the charade that it intended to like actually negotiate for, you know, a full 24 hours even of negotiations. But it was a very interesting thing that, you know, And if they return there for continuing negotiations, I think we will continue to see some of the consequences of Pakistan's realignment potentially, or at least the pressures around the contradictory negotiations. situation that Pakistan is in as a close U.S. military ally during the global war on terror to some extent. And of course, in what preceded it, which was mounting the rise of jihadism you know in the afghanistan uh you know anti-soviet afghanistan um you know insurgency uh and all of the consequences that that's had globally for west asia etc is that also at the same time though like there is so much cultural affinity history uh connection a large shia population and even among beyond not to sectarianize beyond it's clear that the iranian negotiating team was welcomed like pop culture stars. I mean, that's just so much outpouring of pride in the peoples and in their states organized military resistance against US empire. And I think if they had long-term negotiations happening in Pakistan, let's remember that after the assassination of supreme leader ayatollah ali khamenei there was an outpouring of popular protest in pakistan that you know actually besieged the u.s consulate i think it was in uh was it in rawalpindi or lahore i can't remember one of the cities and actually Which one was it?

Ambereen Dadabhoy: It was in a few places, but Karachi, like the Marines in the embassy killed people.

Adnan Husain: That's right. I think maybe as many as 10 people were killed by U.S. Marines, you know, trying to... you know push back the protests through violent you know mechanisms so that suggest and the fact that it's that it it happened there is quite interesting and i think maybe that was iran's dis you know like it could have happened a few places i know that there were regional um you know, kind of discussions going on with Turkey, Egypt, maybe even to some extent backroom Saudi. But in Pakistan, you know, the main kind of population centers of this kind of broader region, the countries that represent them, you know, were could each of them could have hosted, you know, I mean, like it could have been in Istanbul or it could have been in Cairo. But I think, you know, that made a lot of sense, interestingly, to have it in Pakistan. I would encourage people. We had a panel in Philadelphia We talked about the Iran situation, burning questions for the resistance and Adim Suhail, who's an anthropologist, Pakistani anthropologist, participated on that panel and gave a little bit of a regional spotlight on some of the contradictions of Pakistan. I think it's a very important part of the story. We often look towards the West, West Asia consequences as Iran's region, but it has a huge border, you know, with Afghanistan and with Pakistan. And that's going to be very very important, you know, in all of this. Any other thoughts? I don't know, Karina, if you wanted to come back on things that Umtume and Ambreen, you know, raised in the discussion before, you know, maybe we move to papal matters, possibly.

Corinna Mullin: Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything that's been said, really powerful interventions. And I guess I would just say maybe bring it back to the Americas as well. To me, you mentioned this to how this is all connected. And, you know, of course, one of the downsides of. the US getting a bloody nose in West Asia is that they're taking it out on the Americas. And it's a different balance of forces here in the Western hemisphere. And it's, you know, we saw, for example, what happened in Venezuela. There was a brutal invasion and illegal hostage shaking, you know, violating all kinds of international law of the President Maduro and First Lady, First Combatant Celia Flores, who are now being held in a notorious detention center here in New York, MDC, where, you know, a lot of people from oppressed communities are held and other political prisoners too, including Tarek Bazruk, who was recently moved from there, but a Palestinian political prisoner. So, you know, there's that, of course, and then there's the escalating attack on Cuba, You know, we've seen in recent months with the energy blockade, which, you know, that builds on. This is not new. You know, the blockade, economic financial trade blockade on Cuba has been in place for over six decades or 65 years and really is, you know, an attempt to destroy the socialist revolution of Cuba. Right. And even, you know, many people cite that the famous Mallory document from 1960, where, you know, a U.S. State Department official basically recognized that they didn't have the ability to overthrow the government of Cuba based on opposition, because there wasn't a lot of opposition. You know, all the sort of traders, the gusanos left, those who had their, were the expropriators who had their property expropriated. And so the only way they figured they could do this, and this is similar and parallel to the attempts to use the sanctions regime against Iran as well, was to try to bring the economy to its knees, to make the population suffer, to create so much desperation that people might rise up and overthrow the government, achieve regime change that way. Of course, that never happened. because the socialist revolution is extremely popular. People who were certainly working class and, you know, people from the Afro-descendant population, Black Cubans who were extremely marginalized and exploited, super exploited under the neocolonial capitalist economy that existed after the uh spanish-american war and when the us sort of took over and it was really you know the over um whelming role also that they had the latifundia system they had you know the role of um uh of all of you know just u.s um corruption um monopoly capital dominating so you know people supported the revolution because of the redistribution the agrarian reform expropriating the expropriated, redistributing property, literacy rates went up, everyone got access to healthcare. It's a popular system and it's a model. And the reason they wanna destroy it, not only because it prioritizes life, human and natural life over profit for the Cuban people, but what it represents for the world. You know, Cuba, the Cuban government sent, you know, hundreds of thousands of troops to help liberate southern Africa, you know, to Angola, to defeat apartheid South Africa, you know, all over for liberation, support for liberation struggles, the medical brigades, the Henry Reeves medical brigades, you know, to disaster zones or places that, don't have resources because of U.S. imperialism to provide health care. So, you know, the Cuban system, the Cuban Revolution is such a threat to the U.S. in a similar way that Iran is because it exerts its sovereignty, its self-determination, and it uses its surplus value for its own people, not allowing it to be drained and transferred to the capitalist core. And so, you know, but as a result, I think, and it's linked, it's not as a result. These are dialectically linked struggles. The U.S. government has escalated its violence, the genocidal blockade on Cuba. And I was recently there as part of the Nuestra America movement. flotilla and got to see firsthand some of the devastating impacts of this escalating blockade on the population. And every sector of society has been impacted health care system, education, transportation, food system. You know, everything is impacted by not getting access to energy. But I have to say, you know, like Iran, It's also a huge source of inspiration because the people are resilient. The revolution is resilient. It constantly, you know, Cuba has taught the world, you know, how to apply Marxism dialectically. And every time there is a new hurdle to overcome because of U.S. imperialism, the system adapts. You know, during the special period, it adapted fascism. During the first Trump administration, it adapted. Now it's adapting their huge transition to solar power. Also a reflection of change, multipolarity and the increasing relations with China. China has donated a huge number of solar powers panels for their solar power parks. Also, of course, the Nuestra America flotilla also donated quite a lot in terms of solar panels. But that transition is underway. The people are resistant. President Miguel Diaz-Canal has said in a recent interview, you know, Cubans will resist. They don't want war. They don't want you know, they don't want it to come to this. But the Cuban people, the Cuban state will resist any U.S. military intervention. And just on Friday, I'll end here, which is that Friday was the anniversary of Playa Geron, the Bay of Pigs event. U.S. intervention, another historic event like we're witnessing now in West Asia, where the U.S. imperialist military force attempted to undermine the sovereignty of the Cuban state and the Cubans resisted and they defeated this mercenary force that tried to overthrow the revolution. And I believe just like Iran, the Cuban people, the Cuban state would resist again today.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, I mean, I think that's so great. The parallels actually strike me more between Cuba and Iran and then almost any other of the anti-imperialist kind of states that have won through revolutionary struggle, their sovereignty, and then continued decade after decade to continue to adhere to the you know values and a role of international solidarity like i think that's what's so important about iran and so important about cuba like i have not seen you were talking about all the people in the streets and we were mentioning about that and you know the point was that they are there because of palestine their solidarity, their unwillingness to give up and abandon Palestine. And then increasingly also the connection with Lebanon and the people in Lebanon. So it's this kind of solidarity that I think in this era of neoliberal politics, kind of, you know, well, we're even moving beyond that, but I mean, just, it seems so threatening to be so threatening and dangerous to express solidarity with others. You are only allowed in narrow ways to advocate for yourself because you're supposed to be selfish and concerned. And that's what you have a legitimate interest in you. How is it that you could possibly legitimately have an interest in the welfare of others? This is everything that they want you not to feel, to believe, to to act. And we've seen that also that why is Cuba punished so much? Is there many reasons why? But one is because they have supported revolutionary struggles for liberation around the world they've sent the doctors to you know they've sent troops to Angola you know to fight the Portuguese and they have you know kind of maintained that kind of revolutionary solidarity which is such a dangerous example that they want to snuff out so I'm so glad you talked about that I don't know in Tume if you had any thoughts to come in on yeah I do because one of the things that I think

Mtume Gant: I think is really important is like these are also like the long stalwarts towards capitalism and imperialism. And I think it's gotten to that point where they're so exasperated by it. I mean, Cuba, listen, when you watch videos of Rubio or or Ted Cruz or these people talk about Cuba, like their bodies get. You know, like they they get like so flustered. They can't even speak about it with like a kind of like sensical, you know, calm or irrational, because it's to the point where the fact that there there's these stalwarts against U.S. imperialism, against the way capitalism is a totality around this, this world, this planet, and they fight resilient always. They it bothers that it bothers them to their core. Right. I think they also just can't understand it. Ideologically, it's something that really is like a is like a wire that that they that they can't seem to tie in and get a kind of understanding of. But Venezuela as well, you know, when when when Venezuela came on the scene, with their revolution. Right. And when that came in, I remember that vividly because here in the imperial court, that was a lot of us who were not looking at socialism. That was the moment, too. Right. Because we've been so indoctrinated to look at socialism, to look at any kind of Marxist revolution as something that was done with the Soviet Union and with all the you know, negative propaganda that came from many different levels within the imperial court towards that kind of ideology, you know, you were like, that's dead and gone. Right. But I can see people put Hugo Chavez in the chat. When I saw Hugo, I was like, that was big for me. You know, when he went to give Obama that book, I was like, who is this guy? You know, I'm from New York, that kind of vibe. I was like, yeah, I'm into that. Let me like so let me go look at that. And that planted seeds. So it's funny whenever they talk about, you know, the influence of China or the influence of Iran. the influence of Palestine right amongst American citizens. And we have to be careful. Of course, they're talking this vulgarized, racist, xenophobic kind of influence. But there is a way they're saying the quiet part out loud, right? There is an influence, right? Because you look at how they have positioned themselves, resilience, but also not just like this, like emotional resilience, but also an actual material resilience where they build networks. where the Iranian people have built strategic military, you know, operations to be able to, they were prepared for this. Right. And like, I'm like, that is inspiring to us here. It is inspiring people. The Palestinian people, they were not expecting what happened after October 7th, right? For the people to be inspired here with that, right? So they were like, look, this is a problem, right? And they say it. So it is the quiet part out loud, right? When they say that, and I guess it's vulgarized from their perspective, but it is real and we need to take that. And I take that as a cue.

Adnan Husain: yeah excellent excellent points um you know there's so much you know in that and i think um that solidarity that we've seen has just been so astonishing in many ways you know i mean as somebody who has been involved i'm sure karina it's similar for you who've been involved in palestine solidarity for decades you know before october 7th we just never would have imagined um that um the public sphere could be so dominated, particularly among among youth, but really just dominated by a kind of a recognition and awareness of the inherent justice and universality of the Palestinian, you know, question, you know, and to be in solidarity. It was not really, really fathomable and imaginable and imaginable. how that could happen I mean of course what we've seen is like increasing um you know uh repression as a result of the uh expressions publicly you know ever since these big uh protests around the world in European capitals in New York Etc but I you know I was in London during that period in fall of fall and spring of uh fall winter and spring of 2023 and then 2024 where every two weeks there was a massive national march that was anywhere between 300 000 to a million people right you know depending on what had been happening and so forth And so the attempt to criminalize political dissent, actual expertize and knowledge about the situation to kind of criminalize history. I think I remember recalling that somewhere on one of these lists of banned words, you know, for, you know, in this war against woke ism and whatnot, supposedly in academia and the need for, you know, What was it that the whole scare around, you know, the moral panic around what was it called? The legal, you know, like nobody was using it actually correctly. It's like this kind of legal, you know, point about, you know, racism's deeply embedded character in institution structures. I'm forgetting the word that it was. But anyway, whatever that kind of orientation is called, it was like a panic around it, you You know that. So I think maybe that's also worth talking about. And I know, Karina, you have some experience with this in in suffering and successfully fighting back against the repression within academia. because of the identifying of campuses as a major source for pro-Palestine solidarity over this last two and a half years of the Gaza genocide. What has been your experience and your thoughts about the state of affairs currently with political repression on campuses?

Corinna Mullin: Yeah. Thanks for asking, because I think, you know, well, you know, I do just want to say quickly before we move on from the Cuba and the Caribbean discussion that we did a great to plug. There was a great podcast on AISC a couple of days ago with Jemima Pierre and Tamanisha John. And Diego and Navid Farnia that really talks. It was about the politics of sovereignty in the Caribbean. I just want to remind people before I forget, because it was a really important one. But I do want to say that, you know, in terms of the repression, you know, I think that there is it's. In many ways, things have gotten worse. You know, I myself was fired last summer after a protest. Well, you know, after consistent sort of organizing around Palestine solidarity at my institution, the City University of New York, I was fired along with three other adjuncts, one of whom I was recently rehired, one of whom hasn't been rehired. But it was our union even referred to it as a political purge and a new form of McCarthyism. You know, and this, we're one of many, you know, I'm part of a group called Palestinian Anti-Repression Network, and it includes all kinds of people who have been fired or otherwise disciplined in the past year. Of course, this isn't, you know, new, because if we go back to Stephen Saleh in 2014, When he had his tenure denied, his tenure appointment was rescinded by the University of Illinois for, you know, speaking out about Zionist, you know, settler colonialism. But now it's become much more widespread. And this whole Palestine exception is. to academic freedom, people getting fired for pointing out, talking about the genocide, teaching about the history of Palestine, but also making those connections between the university and its complicity, its role through its contracts and through its investments in upholding the imperialist war machine and Zionist settler colonialism. So, you know, anyone now talking about those things can potentially lose their job. And, you know, they do it in different ways. There are the Title VI investigations, claims of anti-Semitism, you know, being weaponized as the new sort of anti-communism. And then, you know, also through time, place and manner restrictions on protests. And that also really impacts students. Because, you know, all of a sudden they'll say, well, you can't have a protest in that place at that time, you're blocking entrances, whatever. You know, they use all kinds of bureaucratic, sanitized sounding language to essentially restrict expressions of solidarity and political expressions on campuses. I just wanted to uplift, there are a few important cases because I do think there is this shift now, not only to, you know, not just about talking about Palestine. And as you said, Adnan, it's also, you know, spreading to other areas. It's not, it has been for a while. And of course we should note that, universities in this country have always been, and going back to what you were saying to me before, this is a country built on settler colonialism, genocide, and slavery, right? So this has always been a fascist country, as George Jackson said in Blood In My Eyes, fascism didn't start with Trump, but it's extending in terms of who is impacted by it now. So, you know, but I would say in, you know, in terms of who's getting targeted right now, Arya Fani, for example, from University of Washington, he was just removed as the director of Middle East Center for speaking out about Iran and against the Zionist imperialist war in Iran. Shirin Saidi from University of Arkansas, former director of the Center for Middle East Studies, who was dismissed again also after criticizing the war on Iran and then removed And there are over 40 people who have been fired in the past year. But, you know, there's also Yousef Azizi, who really worrying from Virginia Tech, doctoral candidate who was detained by ICE. for essentially his criticisms of the war on Iran. So that's extremely worrying. And I think there's a campaign, Anti-Imperialist Scholars Collective is also working on a statement. There's a defense committee. I can share the link with you, Adnan, if you can post later. a statement that's already circulating, calling for him to be released, to end ICE targeting of political speech, and also calling on Virginia Tech University, because what are our universities doing to defend its doctoral candidate and demand his release? And we know there were two others, Mahmoud Khalil, Leka Cordia, both from Columbia University, were also detained by ICE. So there you know, there's it's a really worrying development. You know, this is there is an escalation of repression. And, you know, you know, my own case was was relatively insignificant, minor in comparison to these. But one thing that was really worrying was the fact that our chancellor, the chancellor, like many presidents and chancellors across the country, the chancellor of CUNY was dragged in front of this, you know, the McCarthy higher education hearing in Congress. Congress. And this fascist, Randy Fine, who has advocating advocated the dropping nuclear bombs on Gaza and praised the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. He's sitting there asking administrators questions about, you know, how they're handling campus protests. You know, that's terrifying. And, you know, to be named by him, which I was and many other people have been, to be named by this fascist and then have your administrators, you know, the head of your university agree or play nice with these fascists. It's really scary. And going back to what you were saying to me, you know, this is liberalism. Right. This is liberalism. They are they pave the way for and they enable fascism. And it's only through fighting, you know, through fighting the entire system of racist capitalism and imperialism that we are going to be able to defend our communities and the world from this violence.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, well, we have Ambarine back, so we want to bring her in on this also as an academic who's been very outspoken about what's happening in academia and how it's part of the wider, kind of broader campaign of fascistic repression against political parties. political dissent, you know, but just that point about liberalism. I mean, there was a very interesting kind of ten short observations by Vijay Prashad that he published in the Tri-Continental about, you know, this characteristics of the you know of the new far right or far right of a special type and he doesn't like actually just using the word fascism or fascist to describe them because he thinks it's situated in some specific conditions of you know 20s 30s you know europe and that era but that it is a far right of a special type that we need to pay attention to the way in which neoliberalism and liberalism historically enable, you know, the conditions and lay the seeds for, you know, these kind of right wing movements to gain to gain purchase. And that's, I think, you know, obviously what we're seeing, because just look, the genocide started under Joe Biden. I mean, you know, as much as we can say about how horrible Trump has been, these are really on a spectrum, you know, and they're very both very far right on this spectrum. And so that's kind of the problem that we have with liberalism. But Ambreen, what did you want to perhaps tell us about your thoughts on this kind of problem and question of repression academically and beyond?

Ambereen Dadabhoy: I think one of the things to really connect the dots that we're experiencing, I know the Chronicle of Higher Education is pretty trashy, but occasionally they will have something, you know, break through. And, and just yesterday they published a story about a school in Florida and a text from like a campus Republican group that are full of racist vitriol, which of course nothing is going to happen. But I want us to think about the, the way that the charge of antisemitism has been, uh, lobbed at student anti-genocide, anti-war, pro-Palestine protesters, right? And so that led to the fact that we had to have lots of hearings. Schools had to be investigated for anti-Semitism. But nothing on the same level at all, even on a small scale, for actual evidenced anti-Black racism that we're seeing on our campus. That is actually quite pervasive. And it's not just white students. Often it's Asian students, Asian-American students, right? Anti-Black race, like it's in the ether. And so when we're thinking about like whose voices are being silenced, what is that then allowed? What is being allowed to breed? And then we are being told that there's only one kind of racism that everybody needs to be concerned about. And so at my institutions, yes. I'm part of the Claremont Colleges, which is a consortium. So when one school, for example, agrees to do an ADL Brandeis Center anti-Semitism training because they're settling with Title VI investigation, what does that mean for the rest of us when we teach students from all of those colleges? I don't think that one, the college that settled, had really thought about what that broadly for being in a consortium but also again it suggests that one our student protests like that we need to we need to silence everything about Palestine but we also need to silence any kind of critics of US Empire particularly as its adventures in West Asia but in in terms of that silencing then we allow for all of this other kind of actual racism. We're not going to talk about anti-Palestinian racism. We're not even going to talk about Islamophobia. Those things aren't real. But we're not then even going to talk about the anti-Black racism that just a few years ago, all of our universities had statements about. Right now, forget it. That's not that's not a thing we're concerned with. And it's really troubling because we're making I think our institutions should be about a free exchange of ideas. And yet what we're saying is that. In that economy of a free exchange of ideas, we're not, one, going to be talking about one thing, but also our students don't deserve to be safe in these places when they're doing, you know, when we're having our free exchange of ideas. But yet we can invite fascists to our campuses and they should feel very safe, right? We have... Security, we have all of these things. But for our students, and I teach at a residential campus where 90% of our students live and work, study, all of these things on campus. So this can become a very hostile. They should have an expectation of safety in their homes if the campus is going to be their home. And the college is saying, no, you don't need to have that expectation. And I think it's all related to this erosion that we've seen since our student protests.

Mtume Gant: Yeah. For me, one of the things that has been really interesting to chart is, you know, I work in the arts. I teach in the arts and the conservatory arts. And I went to school in the conservatory arts as well. And they were perfectly fine with nihilism. civilizational obfuscation, some right-wing ideology that was really, you know, overt, right? Definitely things that were anti-Black, anti-women. We can chart. We're all fine with this as expressions and fine with like having this kind of mythological, well, we need to have dialogue, openness, right? The minute the student population became politicized towards an anti-imperialist, anti-empire expression and material like on the ground, not just like, you know, I'm not saying I'm trying to demean art, writing poems about it, but also writing poems and performing them, you know, on the square at the school in encampment, you know, like actualizing their art. Then it was like, oh, wait a minute. No, no, no, no, no. We need to now police. And that's very interesting to me. And I think it's a larger comment on artistic expression in the West. It's depoliticization, right? The university's role in that, in expression, right? Creating a kind of thinker who is separated from political movement, obfuscating and demeaning artists who were part of political movements. You know, you know, we can talk about that, you know, from the Mary Baraka's to the Bertolt Brecht's and all of that. But now it's like another thing where they're like holding on. Right. They're holding on to this need to have the university be a place where they discipline the student into becoming a wage worker or. if they go up into the petty bourgeois or the higher, or maybe eventually into the capitalist class, someone who's pro-empire and willing to crack the whip, right? And that's what they're doing here, right? And, you know, I work in a state school. I work in, you know, public university, working class students. And And we had an encampment at Purchase that was brutally terrorized by our president who left after she retired, after she had a no confidence vote. Also, many of my colleagues were arrested in that. What I what I've noticed, though, within the institution is my students have a consciousness awakening that's happening and the school is doing everything they can within. Without trying to kind of put it like outright that they want to dim that awakening and how they're doing it by taking their way, their resources. taking away material resources, ability to organize, was it quiet hours, protest zones? I get a new name for it every week. And I go, oh, really? In a public university? In a public university? This is also the absurd part of it, right? Having all these ordinance law things there in our campus. it all goes back to the students for me and their awakening that's happened. And, you know, as a professor, yeah, I have my own material life. I got a two-year-old, you know, all that type of stuff. But honestly, the best thing I can do is be me publicly facing and challenge that and challenge their treatment and challenge them to rise to the occasion that they want to rise to. Because they did it. Like, you know, we didn't tell them, you should go do an encampment. No, they went out and they said, we're doing an encampment. How are you going to help us? And I was like... I got you, right? So that's where my thought has been really, really has been when it comes to academia and yeah, how it kind of fits into this whole system.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, I think given the neoliberal academy, the systematic underfunding, particularly of humanities and social sciences, where critical thinking and analysis, material analysis and political analysis of the world we're living in, these things are producing an environment in the university where in dialectical opposition to actual consciousness and awakening because of contact that has not come necessarily through their courses, but through their understanding of what's happening in their world through social media and so on, is that the space of the university has definitely changed into something meant to depoliticize and to be a site for repression and disciplining and reducing the horizons of expectation that people have for themselves, for their society and their world. And this is why I think increasingly people are calling for and trying to find communities outside of these formal institutions where you can come together congregate analyze do political education hopefully organize to do something with that knowledge and with that education and that's why you know like this reminds me that I haven't you know been good about promoting so far, although I've done it in the chat, is just why, for example, I find trying to develop some online courses and the kind of work that I'm doing with this channel to be fruitful and not only hopefully useful, but just really fulfilling for me because I got into this to be an educator to be engaged you know not to retire into an ivory tower that had no relevance but actually to try and you know provide skills tools knowledge for students that they could use them in their own liberation struggles and i do have to note that we are doing a fundraiser for students in gaza doing a small private online course with others who are doing other courses sponsored by wonderful mit students using their platform mitx to mount courses for gazan students they've done it twice before we're fundraising now for a third round and i'm delighted and honored to be participating and i'll be teaching a course called gorilla history anti-imperial resistance theory a history theory practice and you know we're trying to raise money we're doing quite well the goal is 20 000 as of this moment we're at 15 835 um i've put it in the chat a few times and we'll do so again now if people can contribution a small one if they can really appreciated because they have suffered genocide. They have suffered scholastic side. And they're still those students are still dedicated to trying to continue their learning. And this, to me, is fulfilling work. So the more we can kind of mainstream and normalize and produce, you know, for our people and our public's outside of the restrictions and the monitoring and the surveillance and the repression, of these institutions the better and more likely we'll have good outcomes so if you can help this effort that would be really cool um you know um i'm marine you had mentioned i mean we're we're getting you know towards the latter part i think there's a lot of things to talk about but i had also been interested in uh kind of trump versus uh uh you know the vatican you know the pope And so, you know, why don't you tell us a little bit about what you see this story as about and what you want to say about it? And maybe, you know, others of us will have some kind of reactions also to contribute on this. It's not usually that the pope gets big play on my shows, but I'm I'm actually, you know, as a medieval historian interested in the history of the church. This is actually pretty fascinating to me. So.

Ambereen Dadabhoy: Yeah, I mean, I, so when Pope Leo first became the Pope, he like, you know, he wasn't out of the gate just trying to burn things down. You know, he took a few months, but I think the war in Iran, the attacks, in Lebanon, him going to Lebanon, all of these things are quite significant to tell us, right? Like what he thinks about in terms of global Christianity, but really a Christianity that is about resistance too, right? And so the resistance to, I think, the Western American stronghold on Christianity as really a religion of, like, just a means to prosperity and, like, Right. Like the violence of not just exploitation and extraction, but actually the material violence that is licensing the aggression, the aggression against Iran, the the genocide in Palestine, the invasion of Lebanon, and really sort of trying to undermine that hold like that sort of stranglehold on Christianity, that like evangelical U.S. American white Christian nationalism seems to have and talking about another way. And obviously, as a scholar of the Renaissance, I am quite aware of the Catholic Church and its own violence and its own imperialism and all of those things. And yet, at the same time, right now, I think that the Pope really is seizing on an opportunity he has to speak from such a huge pulpit about peace and about, you know, the visit to Algeria, I don't think can be overlooked in terms of the humility, the dialogue, the openness being displayed in the face of a war. And like this, this Ramadan war, this 40 day war, plus like 20 years of the war on terror, plus like, 2.5 years of this genocide that we've been witnessing, you know, this kind of conflict that has continually framed Islam and Muslims as the violent ones in order to justify Untold amounts of violence, millions of Muslims killed by people who are using Christianity in the way that they claim radical Islamic fundamentalists, all in quotation marks, are. use their religion, right? So I think, you know, I think what has come out for me personally as a Sunni Muslim is that Shia Islam and Catholicism, as we're seeing it embodied by the Pope, really are giving us alternatives to the kind of belief structures that we've been, um, that I, I certainly, um, was sold. The other thing I just want to say is the Pope is also revealing just how ignorant perhaps, uh, the, our, our, Leadership in this country is, even though these people profess to be such incredible or such followers of the Bible and Christianity, like J.D. Vance and Pete Hegseth just completely have shown their asses this week, which I think I mean, I think they always show them. But it's just sort of funnier because it's against the pope. And I don't know how you think you're going to win about religion against him.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, well, I flashed up like that. Philip Proudfoot tweet about global politics is now Catholic Shia leftist coalition for humanity versus a U.S. Israeli axis of pedophilia, tech corporations and war criminals. And, you know, there is definitely something to, you know, stray, you know, politics making strange bedfellows, resistance bringing, you know, people that you might not have figured into into into some kind of alignment. I think, you know, the task will be thinking about, you know, how to move away from an imperial Christianity, right? You know, this is exactly what you were talking about, Ambreen, with the... you know, evangelical Christian apocalyptic alignment with extreme messianic type Zionism and the way in which they craft and are committed to a vision of the future that is one of destruction, Armageddon and the eradication of difference. I think this is the important kind of point is that these radical visions that seem to motivate some of these far right Christian imperial kind of orientations are really about the elimination of the religious other and it's just another tool of a war of clash of civilizations and it reminds me so much of like um you know when we talk about you know toomey started us with uh reflections on the crisis of liberalism is that the forms in which these kind of far right fascistic visions of the future take shape are in the most aggressive possible ways. And so they draw upon resources like this crusading, you know, imperialism, genocidal kind of war, uh, and eliminationist sorts of logics that can twist any of these world religions into this deformed sort of tool of like, you know, a really vicious tool of of imperial power and oppression. And that's, I think, what we're kind of dealing with in some ways, and that, you know, there's a real contrast to the liberationist kind of component. of what we see in Shi'i Islam as a resistance ideology, as anti-colonial, anti-imperial, a sacrifice for others because you actually care about humanity. And one important point here is just about the importance of dignity in standing in the struggle. And even if that means martyrdom, something we've learned quite a lot about is that kind of willingness to risk oneself, you know, in struggle to, you know, maintain your position of resistance and defiance and solidarity just accords enormous dignity, just unbelievable dignity, and that this is for dignity of the human, you know, I mean, we cannot kind of accept this kind of subordinate depraved, you know, kind of idea of humiliation, you know, people do have to stand up. And this has been an incredible and amazing example. And so what we're seeing is that, you know, within religion and religious culture, like anything in human culture, there are ways for it to be deformed and perverted as a tool of your repression. And it is also something that can be liberated and be actually a tool and a force for seeking justice. And so anyway, I thought that was an interesting point is that, you know, the pope for all of the kind of problems is. of the catholic church that we could talk about historically you and i from our different you know kind of periods of is the inquisition medieval or early modern i mean frankly it is both it has crossed through them and then it metamorphosed into other forms of repression even when the actual so-called institution of inquisition now it's just the way in which they develop the surveillance society and these tools of repression. But, you know, there is something valuable about having some reclamation project for something that means and motivates people, billions of people, you know, around the world. we have a lot of liberation struggles ahead of us. That's one, you know, I think. So anyway, I thought that was really interesting. I don't know if Karina, you and Tu may, you know, have any thoughts on that, but I want to open the floor for any kind of final thoughts or observations or highlighting, you know, issues that we didn't get to talk about, at least to give a, give a, you know, a point about that before we, you know, maybe go around and, and, and,

Mtume Gant: talk about some some um activism or organizations that we want to highlight well you know to this point what you are both just talked about and i think um the tweet you put up i think it's really important for the left to begin to think about because you know with all the squabbles on the left of who is going to be the what's going to be the revolutionary formation at some point, there will have to be an understanding that the formation, it'll be multifaceted. That's just how it always has been in history in any kind of movement. There will have to be alignments, agreements, solidarity, types of things like that that will have to kind of take shape. And one has to open up their imagination of it here. And the best way to do it is also to look at history and materially look at the social totality and understanding how things are happening. And if you really are a materialist, you won't go by these kind of biases. The religious people are opioid up so they can't become revolutionary subjects, so forth and so on. The atheists are bad because of this. If you if you go into an actual analysis, you'll understand that, you know, you have a lot to learn and there are revolutionary subjects in all types of formations. Right. And I think that's just really super important. And then to add on to your point about that kind of dark side of that, I mean, yes, this is this is something that I think is fascinating when you look at like the Curtis Yarvins and the Nick Lanz of the world and. The the effect that they have in multiple directions, too, because there is that kind of far right that they've gotten that kind of like techno feudal, quote unquote, right. That's into them. But there's also these like, you know, liberal left people who are very fascinated with land. Right. They kind of get into it as well. I think they're right. They would they would they wouldn't call themselves right wing. But I do think they're pretty right wing. Right. And it goes back to that liberalism and that enlightenment ideology that they're all kind of into. I mean, because they're essentially accelerationists. They actually want this thing to kind of accelerate and kind of get out of hand. I mean, there's Landians who think, you know, that the human is, is, is essentially cursed. Right. And that we must, you know, essentially go into a digital format. That's why this is why they love AI. They think AI will be the awakening of the actual real. I mean, it's absurd. It's, but it's fundamentally will destroy the planet. And that's the thing. And like, so I, I agree. I said, I, if, if, I'm sure someone has bought has brought the pope some of this stuff or they say, look, do you see the stuff that they're using? And he's like, oh, hell no. This is nuts, right? Like we have to get our people away from that, right? They can't get they can't get near that. And if there are people within there that are seeing that and they want to fight against that we have to find a way to become an alignment so i agree it's it's it's it's it's important and like i make that overture to people on the left who have this like wall that they won't do these certain types of alignments that like look it's gonna happen without you then You know, really. Right. It's going to happen without you. It's happening. Right. But if you really want to be on the side of struggle, you have to have a much more capacious way of looking at, you know, who is going to be in alignment against imperialism.

Corinna Mullin: Yeah, I mean, I would just add, I completely agree with all of that, with both Ambreen and Tomei. Those are excellent points. I would just say it really does feel like this moment, this has created an opening to challenge the Islamophobia, really, and the sort of hyper secularism on the left. And, you know, we saw this also with the start after October 7th and the Palestinian resistance. And people there were a lot of people on the left saying, oh, well, you know, not acknowledging the revolutionary subjects, as you were saying to me, not seeing Palestinian Hamas fighters as revolutionary subjects. You know, where is the where are the workers? What do you mean? Where are the workers? These are the workers in the working class. These are the peasants. You know, this is what these are the people revolting. And, you know, and it's the same in Iran. And, you know, these are workers state. You know, this is a state where the heads of state, where, you know, the officials are out on the streets protesting with their people, risking being killed. Risking also the sanctions, you know, for years. This is not compradore bourgeoisie that the other Gulf states that put their money in bank accounts, you know, in Europe or tax havens. You know, these are people who can't do that because of, you know, because of sanctions. They wanted to. They could. They could sell out the revolution. They could sell out the sovereignty and self-determination of the state. And they haven't. So, you know, these are this is a state that represents the workers as well. So that there are two there are two points, I think, here, which is one is the Islamophobia and, you know, and being with the masses and the people and the other another feature of the left, the compatible left, you know, as Gabriel Rockhill talks about the Western Marxists. is that sort of the allergy to standing with the state, or that the two things can be true at once kind of thing, right? And you can be with the people, but against the state. And I think, especially in the case of Iran, that also is very much infused with Islamophobia and a rejection of the Islamic revolution and the what that represented in terms of decolonization and a challenge to the Eurocentric model of governance and colonial capitalist form of governance inherited by many post-independent states. So I think this moment has exposed so much And the question, of course, is what does the left do with it? So, yeah, I guess that's probably where you're going now in terms of the organization, the struggle dimension of it. But I think it's a really important development. So just wanted to chime in on that.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I would have wanted to talk also about this, you know, and Tume's kind of remarks about like, you know, connecting the AI, the transhumanism of the form of this techno repression, you know, that we're dealing with. And, you know, this is just crazy. come out you know recently about this book from published just last year you know this palantir basically book you know we know how implicated they've been in the genocide and absolutely everything is just that this is you know kind of like the um It just reminds me so much of the Marco Rubio's Munich speech, you know, which was basically we must recolonize the world on behalf of Western Christian civilization. And what this kind of Palantir 25 points or whatever it was, is basically a eye and certain kind of tech future is the mechanisms by which they feel like they could use a sort of technological advantage to recolonize the world and reshape it in a way for capital and for white supremacy and the way that those two come together in their Western Christian civilization, civilizational imagination. And so that's why I do think it is important to have, you know, you know, let's remember liberation theology began, you know, with Catholic priests fighting on behalf of peasants in Latin America against US sponsored, you know, kind of death squads and, and, you know, the That's sort of imperialist violence. So if something can develop there, we should be open to it on the grounds of the principles that are actually uniting us against this horrific vision. really truly the apocalyptic vision you know when these evangelical christians have an apocalyptic vision which is pretty gruesome it means okay everybody who's not a christian saved person is supposed to basically be you know eliminated from this fantastical world of uniformity and universalist unity in one kind of identity, that's how they want to remake the world. But this AI kind of vision goes along with it and is equally apocalyptic and scary and disgusting and anti-human, because it actually even degrades the very idea of the human. So this is kind of what we're kind of dealing with. And so how do we make sure that they're not the ones who change the world in this direction? But, you know, what kinds of things should we be thinking about going forward? If any of you have thoughts and organizations and struggles and campaigns that you want to recommend to listeners and invite us to engage in, I think, you know, it would be a great opportunity to do so in our remaining, you know, minutes. I would like, well, Karina, you had some already that you even mentioned. Perhaps you might want to mention again some of those legal aid, you know, campaigns to support some of these people you mentioned who have been subject to repression, both graduate students as well as, you know, others who have been rolled up in these kind of ice and taken off and into detention centers in Louisiana and so forth and are fighting for their freedom. Maybe you want to talk about those and anything else that you'd like to. I know you're involved with a lot of things.

Corinna Mullin: Thanks, Adnan. Yeah, and also just about like the AI stuff and going back to Iran, you know, that it's amazing how one of the places that they targeted, right, was these data centers that Amazon Web Services, I think in UAE and Bahrain, right? So, you know, also... thinking about AI and big tech, you know, and its function, its role in the military industrial complex, you know, in the sort of death and destruction that, you know, of a dying U.S. empire and how crucial and central it is. And also, of course, you know, the finance capital dimension of all of that. So I think, yeah, I find it really scary and worrying. But, you know, there are also some decent uses of AI, too. You know, I saw we're all fans of those Lego videos, although, you know, I know it's not I don't think I think it was Dwayne Monroe who was on Millennials Are Killing Capitalism. Really fantastic interview. And he talked about the end in the end that, you know, perhaps it's not a full use of AI. But I do think that I've watched a video on press TV where certainly there is an element of AI. You know, they're definitely using AI, but in a creative, revolutionary, you know, anti-imperialist way. And I think that perhaps points to, you know, some nuance and maybe in how we approach it, because it has created the means. Maybe it's, you know, popularized the means for making this kind of work. the software for doing this kind of thing. And the creativity of those videos and the counter propaganda is just amazing and incredible. And it just reminded me also of what Amberine, you were saying earlier, and I'll bring it back to the campuses, which is that, you know, you were saying we're one of the most propagandized societies. And I was thinking when you were talking, one of the reasons that young people, you know, that, you know, a lot of this movement against the genocide, against imperialism today started on the campuses as, you know, similar to the 60s, was that, you know, young people are not as impacted by the bourgeois mainstream media. They're not as propagandized as everyone else because they don't, you know, they're not following legacy media anymore. They get most of their media from, you know, online and from, you know, alternative sources. So, you know, I mentioned to my students the other day in a culture and resist, a class on culture and resistance, I mentioned the Lego videos because I said we were watching a film about Umm Kulthum and how important she was to, you know, to national liberation in Egypt. and also very supportive of Palestinian liberation. And I said, you know, you can write your papers and maybe think about some of the comparison, what does it look like today? You know, culture and liberation, what, you know, who are the actors doing what Umm Kulthum was doing? It might not be one person, maybe it's a collective, like the people making the Lego videos, you know, explosive media, you know, how creative they are and really brilliant, their level of analysis. So anyway, But I did want to bring it back to the campuses because this in the coming weeks, April 30th to May 1st, around that time is the anniversary of the violent raids on our encampments. And you talked to me about that. We also had a very violent raid at CUNY with close to 200 people arrested, of course, Columbia as well. So it's important. A lot of campuses, I think, will be thinking about this in the coming weeks. organizing happening around that, you know, I urge everyone to sort of follow because it hasn't ended. That repression hasn't ended and it's expanded in many ways. At CUNY, for example, they have invested 10 million in body cameras, even though we know, you know, what body cameras are used to do. They're not used to check The violence of the police, they're used to further oppress, you know, black and brown oppressed communities and actually using AI now to even file cases against people based on what they've got from body cams. You know, there's a we're resisting that. I'm sure that's happening across the board of our universities, more militarized, more use of, you know, time, place and space restrictions, administrative repression, suspending students. We had eight students suspended at CUNY in terms of the campaigns that you talked about. And then there's also a campaign. In addition to the Yusuf Azizi case, which I mentioned, Virginia Tech, and I hope everybody will support, sign on. And I mentioned AISC will also be putting out a statement. And I'll share the link to the statement right now that's out there that many of our orgs, including U.S. Peace Council, which I'm also active with, has been involved in. I would also say there is... Yeah, and I, sorry, I just saw in the chat, someone wrote Indiana University had snipers. Exactly, there are sniper. I mean, the SRG was brought in at CUNY and also at Columbia. This is like an anti-terrorist brigade. You know, obviously we know what they're about. You know, it's all about political repression and terrorizing our communities. Um, Nardin Kiswani, I'd like to uplift her case because she was someone who was really terrorized throughout her time at CUNY, um, you know, by all these right-wing Zionist organizations, Canary Mission, Batar, Halal, and the university did absolutely nothing to defend her over the years. And not just that, they were, actively participating in her repression. And they took down her valedictorian speech from CUNY Law, from the website, you know, trying to sort of erase her from that history. And she was so important in terms of the organizing that we did. And she, at CUNY, in solidarity with Palestine and anti-imperialist political education and organizing as well. She was recently, there was an assassination plot against her by some JDL crazy people. you know, person that who was targeting her, you know, a fascist. I shouldn't say crazy because that's also not fair. She was, you know, this this fascist targeted her with a assassination plot. And she is also in the process of suing Batar. So I'd urge everyone to contribute to her camp, her legal fund. She deserves our solidarity and our support because people like Nardine and others who have been arrested, who are incarcerated now, who are being potentially deported, they are, you know, as Orsanmi Burton says, the tip of the spear right there, like the. Palestinian political prisoners who we just have political prisoner last Friday as well. These are the people who have really risked so much for the movement and for our struggle. And so we always have to uplift people who are being targeted directly by violence and largely, you know, Arab, Muslim, black and brown members of our movement, the people who are incarcerated and support their campaigns materially. And through solidarity, signing statements, sharing statements. And thank you, Adnan, for your fundraiser, too. I really am so grateful to the work that you're doing. I urge everyone to contribute that way as well materially, because, of course, the genocide is ongoing and the suffering is so severe in Palestine and also Cuba. You know, these are other I would say, you know, fine. There are lots of go to if go pastors for peace, you know, Cuba Sea Campaign, the National Network on Cuba, People's Forum also had a fundraiser for solar panels. Find one of those fundraisers, contribute to it because most importantly, we should be out there with our political solidarity, our revolutionary solidarity, but also just as important, I shouldn't say most important, just as important as the material support and solidarity too. So we should be doing that as well. And yeah, I would say make sure if you're not, oh, May Day, there's upcoming May Day, really important. A lot, even some of the mainstream unions, I think to me, you might've mentioned this earlier that there's a, for the first time really unions are speaking about mayday you know versus labor day as a day to mobilize around and that's great it's it's amazing of course we know historically unions in this country especially the big unions labor bureaucracy haven't been that great and have often been aligned with u.s imperialism and undermining global south workers and radical trade union movements But, you know, I think there is this is an opening right now because of the in your face fascism of the moment. So, you know, to build alliances, to build a united front coalition politics. And but, you know, our role as anti imperialists is also to bring in the language and the framing of an analysis of anti imperialism. So they're talking about no school, no work. On May Day, for example, no cuts. That's the other thing, because, you know, hundreds of millions of cuts that are going along with this $1.5 trillion military spending bill. And so, you know, cuts, austerity mentioned earlier is really crucial. And, you know, pointing out the impact that has on our communities. But also they're talking about no war, no ice. So we need to bring into that, you know, what are the wars? Let's name them. Let's talk about that relationship between the war abroad, U.S. imperialism and the war at home, which is class war and the war on our black and brown and indigenous communities. Thanks.

Adnan Husain: Fabulous. So many great things. And we will hopefully get some of those links if you post them to me. I'll put them in the description. And if we have time today, I'll put them in the chat so you have those. And I did post the Beitar. You know, the fundraising for Nardin Kaswani's legal case against Beitar, something that we've mentioned, you know, in the past, it is still short of its goal. So, you know, definitely I put that in the chat and there are other things to me. I don't know if you had any things you wanted to highlight or issues, topics and so on.

Mtume Gant: Yeah, I'll throw out a I want to because it's clear in my brain. Karina have put on a bunch of campaigns. I want to get the campaigns out first. Definitely shout out to the May Day thing. You know, I think one of the more important things also with May Day is. There's definitely going to be an attempt for liberal co-option of May Day at this point because there's so much mobilizing on it. So it's important, I think, for those who have, you know, any kind of radical revolutionary consciousness to be really, you know, talking to people who are going to be going out there and to be giving them. this read, as Karina was saying, this anti-imperialist read and understanding of how to connect May Day to global struggle and not let it get co-opted by the Democratic Party and liberals, I think is really, really, really important. A couple of things I want to highlight is Kali Okuno, great you know, movement leader, um, cooperation, Jackson, he's having health issues. So they've done a fundraiser for him. They're actually close to their goal. They're like a couple thousand dollars away. So it'd be really good. You know, if we can close the, close that gap, they've been able to get there pretty quickly, but you know, they really got to close that gap. He's in an urgent medical care need. And in Cali, if you know his work, uh, you can check him on millennials many things just google him he's he's one of those those figures that if you don't know who he is you need to find out his analysis especially in this moment has been has been super super serious and yeah i'll shout out like let cuba live you know is one of the campaigns i think they're close to their solar panel um goal too so get them over the top but like karina mentioned there's so many really strong cuba um based campaigns and honestly like really like we can't let go of the support of cuba right now we have to really really really maintain like a really strong fierce we can't let that like the fear or the, like, the kind of lethargy that can come from movement, like, lose our focus on what Cuba is in of need and is in need of our support. So we really, really have to stay focused on that. So keep, you know, attention to those campaigns. Really try to give something, help them give them over the top. And I guess I'll just say, you know, to the AI and the kind of close off on that kind of, you know, element of everything. I think that we have to really pay attention to people like DeWayne Monroe and the different kind of analyses on these things, because one of the things they've been really trying to do is make AI as more mystical than material. And a lot of us have kind of fallen in. And we really, it's really important to find the people who have the real strong analysis because there are very few. And to the point of the Lego videos, you know, it's funny. I told someone, I said, I find it as like a two-way troll because there's a way that AI will always look kitsch, right? And I would say, well, what are they doing? They're throwing the kitschness of American culture straight back at it. And it's like, it's so on that level, it's like a two-level troll, right? It's just like, I agree completely.

Adnan Husain: Yeah, that's something we've remarked because it's now become almost our anthem to close the Iran versus the Epsom empire with a Lego video from media. And it works especially well because of the kitsch, their appropriation of U.S. kitsch popular culture and throw it back with this like politicizing it, you know, in this path.

Mtume Gant: way like oh you thought your lego was just this like you know you know fun little thing to play with they've transformed into a tool of revolutionary consciousness and counter you know disinformation it's amazing yeah yeah so i'm saying like that that's what to be studied because it's probably the first successful i've ever seen personally right the first successful i've ever seen so i want to give shouts to that of that real great piece of agitation

Adnan Husain: Absolutely. Absolutely. Ambreen, do you have any kind of final kind of closing thoughts and things you want to highlight or et cetera?

Ambereen Dadabhoy: Yeah, I there's two organizations, one close to home. It's called Believers Bailout. So it's about it's for helping with bail funds for incarcerated people. It's a Muslim organization, but I'm pretty sure they help. incarcerated people who are non-Muslim also. And the other is Gaza Soup Kitchen, which every day they make beautiful food for people under extreme conditions. I am continually impressed by not just the work that they do, but in making sure that in feeding people, feeding a starving population, a population that's deliberately being starved, they make the food like it's about presentation, right? Like, so it's reminding us that like food is a thing that we come together around and we have so many cultural practices that, associated with the ritual of eating. And so I think it's a it's a beautiful organization to support, especially right now on the ground. I think the other thing about the Lego videos, I'll just say is that it does it does throw American kitsch right back at them, but also right like Lego movies about Batman are so popular and You know, it is taking, again, this American mythos of, you know, the thing that we revere in comic books, in superhero stories about the individual fighting against an oppressive society and really turning the lens back on this oppressive. You know, you are you are the thing that is the oppression and you you create. And I think, you know, I can't remember who it was. It was an Iranian man. um official who said you know america's heroes are just batman superman spite right like they don't have any actual heroes and so i think the lego videos like play into that too

Adnan Husain: That's a great point that my friend David Yagoubian, Iran historian and specialist, would definitely make. He's actually going to be on Office Hours this upcoming Friday session, and he'll be coming back to the show, is that, you know, we don't even know, like they're trying to hide information. the casualties. They don't want us to know the names of any of the U.S. service people who have become casualties, you know, in this misbegotten, you know, imperialist war. Whereas, you know, Iran's heroes are people who have fought and sacrificed for their country and everybody knows their names and in fact actually you know it's an important thing i witnessed this myself when i was in iran is that people go they visit the graves of the martyrs in these huge cemeteries of people who fell in the iran iraq war They clean them, they refresh them with flowers and other emblems of care. And there are photos of the people who are there. And sometimes there are photos of them in their homes. distress at you know of their martyrdom sort of photos and and things like that no one is ashamed of that it's just something that reminds you that people have had to sacrifice against the empire to secure sovereignty and freedom and liberation for your society. I mean, so those are heroes. And I think that's a really important contrast that you bring up on marine that is is made in these kind of Lego videos and in a kind of broader kind of cultural difference in how we treat know these kind of questions of like sacrifice like you know it actually is kind of shameful you know to be you know having to be sent uh you know 10 000 miles away to go oppress another people so that's not the reason why they don't want to acknowledge it but it in fact is like you know a kind of shameful thing that we invest so much of our people's resources and human potential in these destructive, oppressive mechanisms of war. At any rate, that just really struck a chord with me at that point. In any case, Ntume, how can people follow you and be in touch with things that you're doing?

Mtume Gant: uh you can follow me within our gates as the podcast we're up every other week usually um you can catch me on imperial ladies um uh every every week more or less with with jay we're doing a short circuit tomorrow i think it's speaking of ai mythology goodness yeah and then and and brown face we'll get into that one as well um But there you can find me on on I.G. I don't do the Twitter thing. Being a filmmaker, you have to be off Twitter because people who do film are crazy on Twitter. So I don't play that no more in my life. But if I'm on I.G. Sir Toombs and I'm out there. Yeah. Hit me up there and we can, you know, check out those those types of things.

Adnan Husain: Great, yeah, Karina, how should people follow you? I think you're on Twitter.

Corinna Mullin: Yes, I am on Twitter. I'm not the most prolific tweeter, but I do go there for information. But definitely you can follow my work or the work of our collective, because I'm part of this amazing collective, the Anti-Imperialist Scholars Collective. You can follow us online. at anti-imperialist scholars.com, I think. Actually, I'm looking it up as we speak. We also have, yes, anti-imperialist scholars.com. We also have a podcast you can follow there. And we have a magazine called The pen is my machete. And, you know, so that's definitely a place. You know, also CUNY for Palestine. If you're in New York or at CUNY, definitely reach out. And, you know, you can follow the work that we're doing there. And U.S. Peace Council, I mentioned that as well. Labor for Palestine is another place that I organize with. So, you know, those are all, you know, there are so many amazing organizations here, but definitely follow them too.

Adnan Husain: Um, Marine, how should people stay in touch with, uh, things you're doing? And you are a really great follow on, on, on Twitter X. I will just say that.

Ambereen Dadabhoy: Um, I feel like X is always, or Twitter is always, uh, lately, um, repressing my tweets, but that's okay. I'm still tweeting. I will not be stopped by Elon Musk and his bots. So you can find me on Twitter at Dr. Data Boy.

Corinna Mullin: I realize I didn't put my last name because I'm like a one name person here, but that's my handle on Twitter.

Ambereen Dadabhoy: You can also find me on Instagram. My handle is a little bit more difficult.

Corinna Mullin: It's half of my first name and half of my last name.

Ambereen Dadabhoy: And my account is private, but you can send me a request and I will probably accept it if you're not a bot.

Adnan Husain: don't be a bot yes if you just can kind of model behavior that doesn't think make people think you're a bot you'll be in okay that's great probably good advice in general so any rate um i just want to highlight one thing that i think was worth noting on social media helia dutari who's been on this program uh in the past is in iran and just put out the first episode of what will be a continuing series of episodes it was a 15-minute video in this kind of continuing documentary series called still minab okay and it's about the stories and the conditions and situation of, you know, the whole community and not just the people who were victims of the U.S. Israeli attack on me, not talking about A.I. You know, I mean, there's a lot to be said about the way that supposedly targeting system of A.I. is used to try and immunize you know, responsibility for a war crime. But the first episode really incredibly touching. There's going to be many more. And she will be coming on the program next week to talk about the series after episode two comes out. And so I really think people should be watching for this. It's another one of these means and mechanisms for changing the narrative. And in this way, it really exemplifies what I would think of as doing guerrilla history. like contemporary history, documenting the stories of people for resistance purposes of changing the imperialist narrative. And, uh, you know, I think it's going to be really an important series. So don't go check out, you know, Helya Dutari's, uh, ex account and, um, you can watch it there. Um, and more will be, you know, in this series will be coming out. Um, and lastly, I just want to, again, of course, plug the, um, uh, course fundraiser that we're doing so that students have internet access data packages. We can hire some Gazan TAs there so that, you know, this online course can actually have a kind of personal component and, you know, with people who can help them and assist them and achieve the educational goals of the courses. There's going to be several courses, you know, the usual STEM, everybody, you know, societies in resistance need their engineers. I mean, we have to you know, really extol the virtues of STEM for anti-imperialism because that's been very important to Iran, for example. But, you know, um, there's also going to be a course on social biography taught by my colleague and friend, David Yagoubian. And I'm doing this course, guerrilla history, as I said. So, you know, if you can, um, support it, we really helpful. We're getting close to the goal. And, uh, this community has been very supportive to this point. If you can, and you haven't donated yet, please do. Uh, So lastly, I just want to thank the panel and say this has just been an absolutely wonderful conversation, just really serious analysis, definitely filled the kind of, you know, Well, I would say we weren't even pessimistically intellectually of the intellect. I'd say we were optimistic in many ways, because in fact, this is a world historical opportunity we're dealing with. And it's up to us to try and connect with these struggles together. um there's so much we can do and it was great to have all of those excellent suggestions about places to go to be involved even if you know you don't want to do one of the ones that have been mentioned here as a fundraiser or activist campaign there are things in your community you can be doing get involved with comrades we don't want to be just online it's wonderful to have this online space for us while we have it you know, to give each other a sense of community and solidarity, because sometimes we can feel we are alone in our communities. But actually, if you start getting involved and reaching out, I'm sure you will discover many comrades among your neighbors, among people in civic organizations in your city. in your community let's make sure to balance our online political education and sense of contact with one another that reinforces and bolsters us in our convictions repetition is no bad thing that's how the imperialists do it they try and just tell you the same story over and over again well let's repeat some of our you know kind of important lessons and have that in sense of community but then get involved in your communities wherever you can OK, so I want to thank everyone in the chat as well for being part of this community and for all of the sharing and discussion that takes place there and tell you that there's a lot coming up. You know, there's another Iran versus Epstein Empire collaboration with Resistance is Fertile coming up. It's become a kind of weekly series. I mentioned that we're going to have Helya Dutarian to talk about still Minab and what's happening in Iran and David Yaghoubian coming for office hours. So there's a lot on this channel. So like, share and subscribe before you go. But until next time, peace with justice and solidarity to you all. And free Palestine and, you know, victory to the free peoples of the world. Thank you so much.