Soffiyah Elijah - The Struggle to Close Attica (2017)

Speaker 1: It's fitting for the first of our last spring series to be moderated by Sophia. We are colleagues, friends, and sisters in arms. Sophia has more energy to take on the world than anyone else I know, and with more energy to spare, as you all shall see and hear in this program today. You will hear the extraordinary feat of one woman's vision to not only speak truth to power, but through her organization, the Alliance of Families for Justice, which is a mere 2 years old, to galvanize hundreds to march for 19 days from Harlem to Albany to protest and demand an end to the human rights abuses in prisons in New York State, indeed across the country. Sophia, I'm sorry I'm not able to be present with you today on this stage, which we have shared on so many occasions. I thank you for all you do, all you stand for, and the ways in which you support and assist families of the incarcerated and their loved ones. You give hope to those who are without power or voice, that they may gain a reprieve from the human rights abuses that they endure. Thank you, Sophia. Thank you to the panelists who shared their stories today. And thank you to all of you, our audiences, who care, who share the struggle, and walk the talk of justice, equality, and equity. Stand strong, Elizabeth Sackler. So before we begin, I'm just going to share a little bit more about Sophia and the Alliance of Families for Justice. Sophia, as we have heard, is the founder of the Alliance of Families for Justice and its executive director. AFJ's mission is to support families of incarcerated people and people with criminal records, empower them as advocates, and enable them to marshal their voting power to achieve systemic change. Prior to founding AFJ, Sophia Elijah was the executive director of the Correctional Association of New York, where she was the first woman and the first person of color to lead the 170-year-old organization. Ms. Elijah has dedicated her life to human rights and social activism and is a frequent presenter at national and international forums on criminal justice policy and human rights abuses. An accomplished advocate, attorney, scholar, and educator, Ms. Elijah has practiced criminal and family law for more than 30 years. She has served as deputy director and clinical instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute at Harvard Law School, has been a member of the faculty and the director of the Defender Clinic at CUNY School of Law, worked as a supervising attorney at the Neighborhood Defender Service of Harlem, and also as an attorney at the Juvenile Rights Division of Legal Aid Society. So thank you, Sophia, for being here, and I will invite you up now.

Kevin Barron: Thank you.

Speaker 1: To begin our panel. Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: Well, good afternoon, everyone. I must admit, it feels a little strange to be here without Elizabeth, because we've done several of these programs together. But I know she's with us in spirit. I want to thank you for joining us this afternoon. And I particularly want to thank our panelists. They're going to tell you a little bit later on about their experiences with the March for Justice and with the Alliance of Families for Justice. But to kind of set the tone for the program, we wanted to show you a short video about the march that kind of puts into context the work that we're doing, the reason that we marched, And what we have in mind for the future. So I think there's somebody who's much better at tech than I am who's going to turn this image into a video for us to watch. And then we'll have our panel discussion. Thank you. In September of 1971, The men in Attica had an uprising to protest the inhumane conditions under which they were being held, many of the conditions that are exactly the same as they are today. And they took over the yard, and they created their own organizational structure, and they had a set of demands to bring about change and to end the inhumanity they were subjected to.

Carol Harriott: Right.

Soffiyah Elijah: At a certain point, they asked to meet with the governor, then-Governor Nelson Rockefeller.

Kevin Barron: Right.

Soffiyah Elijah: And he refused to meet with them. Instead, he ordered the New York State Troopers to retake the prison by force. They came with assault weapons. They scaled the top of the walls all around Attica. They fired tear gas into the yard. And they fired thousands and thousands of rounds of assault weapons.

Carol Harriott: Yes.

Soffiyah Elijah: Bullets and murdered 42 people, including 10 hostages. And to this moment, the state of New York has not apologized to any of the family members of those people who were killed by the state. Where should we start? The Alliance of Families for Justice is a statewide organization, so we are very interested in building networks with other organizations and individuals all over the state. And so this March for Justice was designed to culminate in a rally on September 13th, the 46th anniversary of the Attica Massacre, to draw attention to what happened and to say we will never forget. And we are calling for the shutdown of Attica. And we are calling for the end of all human rights violations and Yes.

Kevin Barron: No.

Soffiyah Elijah: What we should be looking at is, should anyone with a mental health diagnosis be put in a cage? Should anybody who's pregnant be put in a cage? Should any child be put in a cage? Should any human being be put in a cage? We have more advocacy for 4-legged animals than we do for 2-legged people. People will beat you, out of your mind for what you do to their dog and ignore what you do to another human being. So it's not about the laws. It's about the hearts. It's about the conscience. It's about our willingness to treat everybody with respect and dignity. And unless and until we get to that, we're not going to fix this problem. Why don't we let people who are incarcerated have access to the internet? What are we afraid they might see? They might learn something. They might learn something, like their rights. Go visit. There is no substitute for walking through those doors, filling out those forms, talking to Officer Asshole, having to walk through the metal detector.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Right.

Soffiyah Elijah: Ladies, if you have on an underwire bra, being told you have to take it off—

Speaker 1: Right.

Soffiyah Elijah: —and go into that visiting room braless. Sit in that visiting room. Watch people try to piece together their relationships and being humiliated. And once we do that, we will challenge every inhumane practice We have to, because otherwise we can never look at our children and grandchildren with any kind of pride. We owe it to them to build a humane society. We cannot ignore— we cannot ignore what's happening. So we tell 'em.

Kevin Barron: So we tell 'em.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Tell 'em!

Soffiyah Elijah: We are a family.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: We are a family.

Soffiyah Elijah: A mighty, mighty family. A mighty, mighty family. A united family. A united family.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: A diverse family.

Soffiyah Elijah: A diverse family. Marching to Albany.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Marching to Albany.

Soffiyah Elijah: Fighting for justice.

Kevin Barron: Fighting for justice.

Soffiyah Elijah: Please welcome Kevin Barron, Carol Harriot and Lily Osetutu. Is everybody ready?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Hi, everyone.

Kevin Barron: Are we good?

Soffiyah Elijah: Okay. Hello. All right. So let's just jump right in. In the short video, we saw some of you. In fact, I think we saw all of you. And I would ask you to begin by telling the audience why you marched. And I'll start with you, Kevin.

Kevin Barron: Well, I marched because there was a need to spread awareness about some of the conditions that are going on inside the prisons. There was a need to make people aware of the suffering of families. A lot of times the families are ignored in these situations. And we just needed to bring attention to some of the abuses that are going on. And we wanted to march along this route, a route that a lot of families take to visit some of their loved ones inside. And so, for me, it was just creating a situation of awareness. And once we're aware, then we can start taking some action to remedy some of the problems. Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: And thank you, Kevin. And Carol, for you, why did you march?

Carol Harriott: I marched basically because of my son. I didn't know much about Alliance of Families for Justice. I didn't know much about the organization as yet, because I've just— it's just started. And when they talking about marching to Albany, I thought it was crazy. But basically I did it for my son. So, you know, but when I got— when I went on the march, I realized it's more than my son. It's a universal thing with all family members. So basically I thought I would for my son, but then I realized it's more than my son.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you, Carol. And for you, Lily?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: So similar to Carol, when I first heard about marching, I thought you were crazy. Sophia had put forth the idea of marching from Harlem to Albany, and being from London, I just knew that that was I knew they were just far away.

Soffiyah Elijah: Yeah.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: And as we explored the notion, the term putting your feet to the street, I think you use quite often, and that really resonated with me. Because I know that for me, I wanted to march for everybody else that couldn't march alongside us. But I didn't know how best to do that. I know about my role in AFJ and how I contribute in that way, but I really wanted to I wanted to be at the front lines. I wanted people to see me in action doing something. So I stood up and I agreed to the madness because I thought, in all honesty, I have to do this for everybody else that would love to be as crazy as me and do it.

Soffiyah Elijah: Okay. Well, now all of you have declared to the audience that I'm crazy. Thank you for that. But you still marched. Since you thought it was a wacky idea initially, if you would describe, what was a typical day like? And I guess I will start with you, Lily, this time.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Well, at the beginning? Midway? Because it changed. I think it changed. It evolved. So initially, we obviously had hundreds of people marching with us from Harlem to the Bronx. So in the beginning, I would say that was quite hectic. That day felt like— it felt like it was going to be an interesting start, but it was in no way preparing me for what the rest of the march would be like. As we continued, we would start to implement and incorporate new ways of bonding the group. And that would be welcoming in new people, and in some ways saying, you know, clapping out and saying goodbye to the people that marched with us previously. And I think that's a really important point. Obviously. But it started off with us waking up extremely tired. Your legs are sore, your feet ache, but finding the strength amongst our group to just keep going. Sophia, you introduced us doing some stretches, which were very helpful. It helped you to feel a bit more limber to prepare you for the day. But more than anything, I felt like it centered me. I found a way to ground myself and prepare myself for the task ahead. I'm so glad Because you said that. it's no easy feat to march God knows how many miles a day. So a typical day started off with us doing some stretches and Kevin and I being like, why are we doing this again?

Soffiyah Elijah: And Kevin, so how did our day kind of flow and end?

Kevin Barron: Well, I also wanted to add that logistically, you know, we had to pack up all our things, The beds we— beautiful, lovely beds we had. That, you know, that we slept on the night before. And just the organizing effort, I think, was really amazing that Safiya and Lily put together the logistics of this. These things you take for granted were just, I mean, well taken care of. And just the idea of packing up everything and getting everybody on board, you know, everybody wakes up Differently, you know, and organizing bathroom time. There was one time in Yonkers, I mean, it was packed. I mean, we had about, what, 50 people in a very small area? So we had to organize bathroom time and how we would get out on time to go to our next destination. So those are things you kind of take for granted, but somehow we made it happen. And We got through personality differences and all of that to look at the big picture of what this was all about and to keep people focused on why we were doing this to begin with.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you. And what did we do each evening besides our dinner? Yes?

Kevin Barron: Well, the great part about the entire march of 19 days, I think almost every day we had teachings or rallies or seminars where whatever area we were in, we would have somewhat of a workshop and just inform people of the issues, the general issues, the issues that might be in those particular areas. And it was a great turnout. It was a way for us to connect with the community and other organizations that we're going to talk about later that we networked with. So in each and every one of those 19 days, we were able to tell people in those particular areas exactly what's going on. A lot of people were shocked to hear, you know, the things that are going on inside. So I enjoyed the teachings very much.

Soffiyah Elijah: And what kind of reception did you experience, and balance that against what kind of reception you thought you were going to experience along the way? I'll ask— I'll start with Carol and then Lily.

Carol Harriott: Why not?

Soffiyah Elijah: Why not? This is the way it was for 19 days, by the way.

Carol Harriott: Well, when I talk about the march and I talk about where we're going to be, you know, up north in the— basically, I call it— can I use the word? I call it a—

Lilly Osei-Tutu: The boondocks.

Carol Harriott: The boondocks, basically up there. And, uh, I'm thinking that these people are not gonna be receptive to us. They're gonna be like, what is these people doing in our backyard? They're probably gonna shoot us, hang us. I'm sorry, guys, I'm being really honest. That was my thought because we do not know where— what we're going into. What are we getting ourselves into? So I was scared. I didn't tell him though because I'm one of the brave ones. So I didn't say anything, but I was literally scared. But we had got a little problem when I was on the march, because I didn't march all 19 days. But one of the times when I got on the march, we was kicked out of a park by the fire department. They said, get out of our park, we don't want you in here. And it was very aggressive. That scared me. But most of the time, we had really nice people who, like she said, fed us. They fed us like we gained weight. Instead of we lost, we gained weight. Yeah.

Soffiyah Elijah: Mm-hmm.

Carol Harriott: So we've had more nice than bad, so that overrides, you know, what I expected. So basically, it was an experience that I was scared going in, and I was scared for a minute with those people in the park, with the fire department. But we also had some very nice people, you know, which surprised me, because the way— from the treatment that I get when I go to the facilities, It's basically mostly white guards that's there, so I get very bad treatment. So when I was going up there, I expected the same treatment from the same— because, you know, white people, you understand? I expected the same treatment the way I get from there. So it was very refreshing to find that there was really, really nice people.

Soffiyah Elijah: Lily, you want to add to that?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: So I think I was— I was somewhat apprehensive moving forward. I, I didn't know exactly what to expect, but I do know that in this day and age and in the political climate that we sit in at the moment, there isn't room for people to kind of sit on the fence right now. People have a view, they have an opinion, and they're quite open about expressing those views and opinions, and sometimes they don't necessarily match your own. So I have taken many a visit upstairs And as I have gone upstate, I've seen that a lot of people are fans of Trump. I personally am not, but, you know, their views differ to mine. And so those kind of things being in the back of your mind made me a bit wary of what to expect. I would say, though, honestly, like Carol said, it shattered my expectations, because we were met with so much love, so much love. There were times when, you know, people People would come out to meet us in droves, or to just generally come and see if we needed some water. That's when I really felt the humanity and the spirit of people coming together. And I knew that even though you could differ in terms of opinions, it wasn't necessarily going to cause a problem. That's not to say we didn't encounter some people who did have a problem with what we were doing, even though they didn't know what we were necessarily doing.

Carol Harriott: Mm-hmm.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: There was an occasion where we marched through the town of— is it Buchanan?

Kevin Barron: Yeah.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Right. So we were marching, doing our usual chants, you know, we are a family, a happy, happy family, singing things that I think are quite uplifting. As we were walking through this small town of Buchanan, a guy comes out on his porch or something, and he starts shouting. I don't know what he's shouting, because we're also shouting, so there's a bit of a clash. We're chanting, not shouting. He then proceeds to do some sort of— I'm thinking he jumps up and down and does some sort of a movement, um, and then says, hold on one moment, I've got something for all of you. He ran into his back garden, which is out of sight. So at this point, some of us are thinking he's going to get a knife, a gun. You don't know what he's doing. We're in a small town upstate, and they're not happy to see us. He then runs back outside. Okay, that's given him He's too much credit. He kind of waddles back outside because he was a heavier set guy and eventually gets back to the sidewalk, and he has a hose in his hand, and he then begins to start to spray the hose towards us. Now, I didn't live through the civil rights movement, but I can imagine that that probably hits home for quite a few people that did. And that's when I thought to myself, wow, wow, wow, as much love as you can be met with, When people meet you with that same passion and it channels into hatred, that is scary. Hatred for something that they don't know or understand. Because we were chanting about things that were what I believe should bring people together. Like you mentioned in the video, you know, we have more compassion for 4-legged animals than 2-legged people. And some of the things that we were marching about was for the human rights abuses that are taking place against They don't think you're human. And this guy just saw a mixed group of people, I will say a diverse group, because as we went further and further upstate, we actually had more diversity in terms of our group. And he just wasn't happy. And that, that for me, I think, hit home. It didn't overshadow all of the good we were met with, but it definitely stuck with me.

Soffiyah Elijah: Yes.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: And it reminded me that the fight So, I remember in that moment, it's like we had this, this thing, this energy between us. We all started chanting louder, and our feet started hitting the street harder. And there was something about us that find— that found the strength. So, I want to thank him for trying to hose us down. You know, it was cool to do it at the time to give us that strength, but it was a reminder, to say the least, of what we were doing and the task we were taking on.

Carol Harriott: Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you. Yes, I remember that guy with the hose. I actually thought he'd gone to get a gun.

Carol Harriott: Right.

Soffiyah Elijah: In that moment, we were being followed. We had a little caravan that was following us, a small school bus, a truck with all of our supplies, and a volunteer who was driving a Jeep. All 3 of the drivers were Vietnam veterans. They were all at the ready.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Mm-hmm.

Soffiyah Elijah: To go into action if we were in danger in that moment. But we didn't know that they were planning some kind of, I don't know, military action, I guess, over there. But it was quite a moment out there in that small town. I want to shift the conversation a little bit, because you all have shared why you marched. But I'd like if you could share kind of like what kind of preparation did What did you go through to get ready for this event? And I'll— other than deciding that I was crazy. I'll start with you, Kevin.

Kevin Barron: Months and months of walking. And because physically I wasn't sure if I was going to make it physically. You know, my heart was in the right place, but I wasn't sure if my feet was going to follow my heart. So I did a lot of walking. And then I was ready. I was motivated. Once we got started, you know, that was it. There was no turning back. But also mentally, you know, just being prepared. And we encountered media along the way, so I wanted to be prepared and to present our case in, you know, articulate manner so people understand exactly what's going on and what we're doing, and to prepare for resistance.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Yeah.

Kevin Barron: So all of that stuff was kind of going through my mind. I had no idea what it was going to be like. But it was a great challenge. I really enjoyed it, actually.

Soffiyah Elijah: Karen, how about for you? Because you ended up doing extra duty during the march. What kind of preparation did you do?

Carol Harriott: I didn't do any preparation, people. I was lazy. I did not want to go. I'm not lying. But I had to go. I have a bad knee. And I'm saying, Carol, what in God's name are you doing? But it was so important. This march was so important, so eye-opening. So I didn't really do any kind of exercise. Like I said, I'm lazy. I didn't run, I didn't walk. Sophie keep telling me, Carol, you got to walk a couple of days before you start. I say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing. But I lied. I'm sorry, guys.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: I didn't.

Carol Harriott: And let me tell you something, my knees hurt. I felt every pain. Sophia, my knees felt every pain.

Soffiyah Elijah: That's because you didn't practice. You didn't warm up.

Carol Harriott: I didn't listen to Mama, and I'm sorry, but I didn't feel pain. So I really didn't prepare anything, but Mom, with my mind, I pray a lot, so that helped me to meet people, see people, and talk to people. We also had some forum that Sophia did before we leave where we do media, or to talk to media People, how to talk to people without, you know, if they push your button, how to keep calm. Because people do push your button. So, you know, we had a little program about that, which was very helpful, you know. So beside that, that was it.

Soffiyah Elijah: Helyeh, did you prepare?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: I mean, I'm going to follow on from Carol. I didn't prepare. I go to the gym, so I thought, I've got this. I'm fine. I'll be fine. After day 1, I was like, my legs. My legs, I can't feel my legs. But in terms of like the physical way of preparation— preparing, I was like, I'll take it each day as it comes. But I think a lot of that happened because the logistical team— there were a lot of us in the office trying to make all of these moving parts come together, and it was not easy. And that's why I want to give a shout out to Tiffany, Maya, Izzy, Sophia, Linda, and everybody else that helped to Roberta set up our whole system.

Soffiyah Elijah: She's here. Roberta, raise your hand.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Yep. Thank you. Like, there was so much that had to go into it, and that meant, for a lot of people, not myself, early mornings, but more so for me, late nights. And so, in terms of preparing for the march, I feel like I was so buried into trying to take this march off of paper and make it come to fruition. So that was my preparation. Just mentally always trying to envision where we're going to be and how it's going to look. Yeah.

Soffiyah Elijah: Oh yeah, go ahead, Kevin. You want to answer?

Kevin Barron: I just want to add one part that also I needed to prepare in terms of photography and videography, which was kind of thrown upon me to document what was going on. So I wanted to be prepared that everything was I've done still photography for years, but I never really did any videography, so some of the videos weren't all that great, but some of it served the purpose of documenting what we were doing.

Soffiyah Elijah: And I would like if each of you would share one particular highlight during the march, and then I'm going to shift I'm sorry, I'm going to repeat again. But if there was one highlight during the march— and before you answer that question, I do want to give particular thanks to the various faith-based organizations that housed us over the course of the 19 days. We stayed in various churches along the way, none of whom had we had any relationship or contact with before we kind of reached out and said, hey, you don't know us, but can we sleep on the floor in your church? We did have air mattresses, so those— it wasn't quite as bad as the sleeping bags we had originally planned on. But I definitely wanted to say thank you to all of the religious leaders, not only who housed us, many of them, after housing us that evening, came back the next morning and marched with us.

Carol Harriott: Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: Even though that hadn't been their original plan. So I'll start with, I guess, Helyeh. What's a highlight that you took away from that 19 days?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Sophia, I know this might sound a little bit bland, but the thing that sticks out the most to me is the laughter. Because through it all, no matter what we were going through and the difficult times and the struggles and how exhausted we were, I'm going to say you, me, and Kev, because we've done the whole thing. We always found time to laugh, whether we were sitting around dinner and, you know, as part of the logistical team, I'm exhausted at this point because I've been in go mode from beginning to the end of the day. I always found some sort of way to laugh with you, and I want to thank you both for that because it kept me going. That was a highlight. But if I think about an area that we stopped off, Newburgh. That's— that stood out for me.

Soffiyah Elijah: Okay. And what about Newburgh stood out?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: They cooked us a lot of food. A lot of food. Not that we needed any more food, because we'd eaten a lot, but I will always say yes to another plate. They went— they went absolutely all out for us. We arrived, and they had put on the most amazing spread. When we arrived at their first church, we had eaten a buffet-style meal. Then they took us over to their second church, which couldn't have been any more than, what, 15 minutes away? And we had another meal where everybody had cooked and brought food from home. And I was happy for Sophia because she's vegan, and these are SDA, so Seventh-day Adventists, so they are vegan. So the spread was incredible. But they also had a revival afterwards, which I've never been to. That was incredible to see. I, I really appreciate Newburgh. But something Thank you. Something that touched me about Newburgh as well is how heavily impacted the community was. Sophia done a talk there after we'd eaten our second meal, and she, she asked people to put up their hands if they had a loved one or had been impacted by mass incarceration in any way. And surprisingly, or not surprisingly, a good few people raised their hands. And there were so many people within that congregation that didn't know somebody else had been impacted. For them, that was the first time that they had shared that they had a loved one that was incarcerated. And that really hit home because it goes back to the idea of isolation and the fact that there have been studies conducted by Hedwig Lee, and, you know, they touch on the fact that family members who have someone who is incarcerated are the least civically engaged. And for us, that was something we needed to— we wanted to eradicate. And we'll talk a bit more about the ways that we're doing that later on, but that's why Newburgh stood out for me. There were so many things in that one moment, that one night.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you. And Carol, for you, what was the highlight for you?

Carol Harriott: When I reached her on the march.

Soffiyah Elijah: Whichever.

Carol Harriott: I mean, when I reached her on the march. Well, I like Pastor— was Pastor Mike? What's his name? Pastor—

Soffiyah Elijah: Oh, Pastor D.

Carol Harriott: Pastor D, we stopped at his church. I find it— it was very refreshing for me because I realized diverse people can work together. We're diverse, but we can work together. And it was so refreshing to see majority of the people that was up there was not of my color, but they was willing to work with us. Like Lily said, the food was awesome. Always food. How can you go on a walk for 19 days and gain weight? I don't understand. But there was always food. There I'm not a vegetarian, but was I'm a vegetarian. always food. And Pastor D was so nice. His congregation was very nice. So that was one of my highlights. But I have a few, but I'll wait till later.

Soffiyah Elijah: And Kev, what was a highlight for you?

Kevin Barron: I think there were a lot in between, but the kickoff and the ending were both the highlights for me. The kickoff was tremendous. I mean, we had, you know, probably 300, 400 people there. Danny Glover. I got a chance to meet Danny Glover. And, you know, some of our people spoke. Jamal Joseph was there. And it was just a tremendous, tremendous kickoff in Harlem. And then our elders leading the way for blocks and blocks and blocks was just— you guys raise your hand.

Carol Harriott: Barbara.

Soffiyah Elijah: Barbara. Please call her Miss Barbara. They don't hear us.

Kevin Barron: But it was tremendous. It was really inspirational to have them leading the way, and you just see a whole group of people behind them crossing the bridge into the Bronx. That was really inspirational for me. And then the ending, you know, we did it. You know, we came near the end. We set out to do something, and we accomplished what we set out to do. So that was— those are the highlights for me.

Soffiyah Elijah: I wasn't going to ask you I about the ending, can but I'm going to ask answer you about the beginning. the question myself, but I think I want to share one highlight. And like you all said, there were many. But we went to Garrison, and we stopped there for lunch at a convent. And the nuns prepared our lunch. And they were all in nun attire, I guess that's the best way to describe it. They had their habits and their— they had the floppy habit.

Carol Harriott: Mm-hmm.

Soffiyah Elijah: So then they were like Bustling all around waiting on us. Now, I don't know how many of you in the audience have ever had a bunch of nuns waiting on you. I would venture to say probably you haven't had that experience. So that in and of itself stood out. But then we were finished and they really didn't want us to leave. And they were already talking about us coming back and marching next year. And it was kind of early in the march to be talking about us trying to do it again. But what really What struck me was at the end, we're all saying our goodbyes, and our group's lined up now to start chanting and marching to go to the next space. And there the nuns are lined up behind us, and they're waving to us. But the next thing I know, they're marching with us. They just start— they just fell into formation and marched with us down till we got to The main thoroughfare. And that scene really stood out to me because it spoke to how people just embraced what we stood for. Even if they didn't understand why we would choose to march as opposed to another way to make a point, they really respected the fact that we were willing to put in that much effort, that it was that important to us that we would take 19 days out of our lives And we would literally put our feet on the ground to draw attention to it. So before I ask the next question, I want to shout out a couple of people in the audience. First, I want to shout out Jane, who will raise her hand, I hope. Thank you. Who came to an event that we had last year at the Sackler Center. And Jane and I hadn't seen each other in a few years. And afterwards she came up to me, she said, I really like what you're doing. I want to get involved. And she volunteered to get the parade and sound permits for all of the towns and villages that we marched through, which was a tedious job.

Kevin Barron: Mm-hmm.

Soffiyah Elijah: People weren't always happy to hear that she was getting permits for us to come. Those New York City people to come walking through their peaceful towns. But she took that on, so I want to give her a shout-out for that. And then I want to give a shout-out to her husband, Marc, who was pressed into service doing photography for us. And then we have one of our We have Upstate Partners, Phoebe, who's here from Ithaca. And I think I saw Kadel. Did I see— yeah, there she is, from the Unitarian Church of All Souls that hosted one of our events last year. And then I definitely And we have to acknowledge Emily, who's back there with the knitting needles, who's done all of our grant writing as a volunteer for a full year before she came on board just a month ago as a paid employee. I can't leave out 2 of our 3 fearless elders who led the march. Those of you who got to see the video saw Ms. Barbara. And Miss Beverly. And then there was Miss Ivan, okay, in their 80s, who led the march. And as Kevin mentioned, they were supposed to only walk for a couple of blocks. And then the game plan was they were supposed to get into the school bus, right? And then the rest of us were going to walk. But, you know, we were going to, in a respectful of elderly way, they were going to ride while we marched. They think they have the mission of the colonists. Okay. And they wouldn't get on the bus. They kept marching and marching and marching. And we had a police escort from Harlem to the Bronx. And those cops actually, whatever they were thinking about us, they were totally swept away by these 3 elders who wouldn't Sit down on the bus. And finally, one of the cops said, ma'am, you've got to please get on the bus. We're, we're out of our jurisdiction, but we can't leave you. And so finally, reluctantly, after crossing the bridge into the Bronx, they got on the bus. So I think they deserve some applause.

Carol Harriott: Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: I'm conscious of the time, so I want to shift the conversation. We've talked a bit about this march, the takeaways from it. I think we're also clear, I don't think I could convince you all to march next year.

Carol Harriott: No.

Soffiyah Elijah: That's good. We have a solution for that. So what are the future plans? What are the What are the things that we have in the works going forward? And I think I'll start with Kevin.

Kevin Barron: Well, it's always good to follow up on marches. You know, a lot of groups have a lot of marches, and then that's it. But we plan on— we're going to have some regional conferences coming up. The first one is going to be in New York City in April, April 13th and 14th. in Manhattan. And what we plan to do there is to raise some issues and consolidate some of the networking partners that we've been in touch with and just talk about some issues that are affecting the community and come up with some strategies and some action plans as to, you know, what to do next, some practical stuff to make— you know, to follow up on the momentum that we created for the march. So we have 6 regional conferences planned, 3 for this year and 3 for next year. And some of them will be in Ithaca and Adirondacks, Adirondacks and Buffalo and Albany.

Soffiyah Elijah: So thank you.

Kevin Barron: Thank you. Yeah, we're going to start in April. As I said, it's going to be here in New York City. Then we're going to Peekskill in July. Ithaca in October. And then the following year we'll be in Buffalo in April and Albany in June and the Adirondacks in May. So we want to follow up, as I said, what we created on the march. We created some dynamic partnerships. And we're going to come up with some action plans to really make a difference and to put pressure on people. You know, there are people in power that we need to give them a little shove.

Carol Harriott: Right.

Kevin Barron: And we have some power of our own that we need to start exercising. So we're looking forward to that. We're also going to have a family retreat coming up at the end of June, beginning of July. And we're looking forward to that, to some relaxation and some recreation, but also to, again, create a safe space where we could talk about some issues regarding families. So those are 2 things we got coming up. Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you. Huda, did you want— anything you would like to add, particularly about the regional conference or anything else we're going to be doing?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Okay, so Kevin spoke a bit about the regional conferences, and we do have some palm cards at the back if you want to grab them. It's got a bit of info about what we're doing, the dates we're doing it, and we've got some really key speakers that will be present as well. So I think it's not to be missed. I'm really excited. We've got some key keynotes But just following on from what Kevin said, this is a great way for us to have this conversation around why we march, what we're doing, and how we're going to do it. And in AFJ, we've been sort of in our little hub having a lot of conversations like this. So the regional conferences for me really stand out for that reason.

Soffiyah Elijah: I want to thank the Unitarian Church because they're going to be hosting us. And for those of you who are involved Or come to learn about AFJ. Everything that we do for our family members is free. We've not charged anybody for anything. We took a bus of family members up to caucus weekend so that they could make the issues known as far as how families are impacted by mass incarceration, and no one had to pay a dime. When we did the March for Justice, All the food, everything was free. Every single event— we do a mother's acknowledgment event in May, a father's acknowledgment in June. We had a family dinner gathering in November. No one ever has to pay anything. And that's because we don't ever want economics to be a barrier for people getting involved. We live in a society that's driven by money. This is our small way of making it clear that money should never be the separator of people. Carol frequently will tell me that you should ask people to give a little something. If people want and can, that's fine.

Carol Harriott: Donate, people, donate.

Soffiyah Elijah: If they can't, they should still be able to come and get involved. That's what's really Thank you. We have been building a statewide network of other organizations that share in our beliefs and our concerns that families are really being shredded by mass incarceration. In this state, there's a little under 50,000 people who are currently incarcerated, and another 36,000 people who are on parole or probation supervision. So all of those families are impacted by mass incarceration, and the focus of the regional conferences is going to be how families are impacted and how we can do something to rebuild those families and push back against the devastation that is being visited on those communities where the families come from. So I hope that all of you will come. As Lily mentioned, we have these palm cards. And one of the ways— people always ask us how can they help. One easy way that people can help is you can take a bunch of these, they're in the back, and give them to other people. Another easy way you can help is to go on our website, sign up to get our newsletter, and urge other people to do so. Carol said, and it's true, None of the— None of the— we don't charge people for anything, but we have to pay for everything we do. So we raise the money through foundation support and individual donations. So certainly donations are always helpful. But spreading the word is perhaps the most impactful thing that you can do. Many of you, I'm sure, are on social media. So we'll ask you— is it up there? It's not up there, but it's on all of our materials, our various social media handles. Now, I'm tech challenged, so I'm going to use the wrong technology, but those of you on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter, please follow us, post, tweet, whatever those words are that I'm supposed to say at this moment. Do those things, okay? Okay, I'm going to now shift. I want to talk a little bit about some of the advocacy that we've been engaged in, and then I want to open up the floor for questions. So I'll start with— Carol just voluntold Kevin. That's a new word for AFJ, by the way, voluntold.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: We don't volunteer for anything in this place. We're just told what to do by Sophia.

Soffiyah Elijah: But you're supposed to feel like you're a volunteer, so it's voluntold. So we'll start with Kevin. What is some of the advocacy What are some of the policy endeavors that we've taken on in the past year since you've been involved with AFJ?

Kevin Barron: So many issues going on, but I particularly was excited about the caucus weekend that we went on where we were able to go up to Albany and let the legislators know some of the issues that are on our heart, and we were able to have scheduled meetings and sit down with them For 15, 20 minutes, half an hour, and give out— also give out our postcards and just let them know what's on our hearts and that we're going to be following up. And we wanted to know exactly where they were coming from. So there's a lot of issues going on that we're probably going to get into. But that weekend was really special. We also had a workshop, which I myself, my partner here—

Soffiyah Elijah: I'm here.

Kevin Barron: Participated in. And, you know, we discussed how families are affected by everything that's going on. You know, as I said earlier, a lot of times we just talk about those inside, as we should, because there's a lot of injustices going on inside. But most times families are left out. Nobody talks about the support of the families. And one of the reasons why I joined AFJ was because the emphasis on Families being supported. And that's really critical. A lot of people don't realize the impact incarceration has on an entire family, emotionally, financially, you know, if you have children, you know, the stigmatism that goes along with that. So, I went off a little bit, but that's some of the issues that just come to mind.

Carol Harriott: Thank you.

Kevin Barron: Right away.

Soffiyah Elijah: Kevin, you have that palm card on your lap. Could you show that to the audience, please? So those are in the back, and they are like a snapshot of the various ways that mass incarceration impacts families and communities. So if you feel that you want to start talking to other people about these issues, please grab some of those palm cards. You can give them out to other people, and they're easy talking points. It helps you to understand. If you haven't lived that experience, it may help you to be able to describe it to other people. And if you could kind of imagine putting yourself in the place of a mother or a spouse or a child who has an incarcerated loved one, this palm card was designed by one of our family members who's directly impacted. It will help you to start that conversation with other people who you think might give you a listening ear. I'm then going to turn to Lily, because you have postcards. Maybe you could tell people about that package policy that we worked on.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: With pleasure. So—

Soffiyah Elijah: Voluntold.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Voluntold, right? Yes. So, DOCs are very sneaky. I'm not sure how familiar all of us are with the way that they do things.

Soffiyah Elijah: You have to tell them what DOCs is.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Oh, sorry. The Department of Corrections and Community Supervision. So, they are the body that runs the facilities in New York State, as well. So, so, DOCs, as I was saying, very sneaky. They tend to be doing a lot of things behind the scenes that a lot of people aren't aware of, namely family members. Recently, they tried to push through a policy, which we've labeled the package policy—

Carol Harriott: Mm-hmm.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: —which would have made it so there are a lot of changes to what our loved ones can receive inside. The things like fresh fruit and vegetables, which we are told on a daily basis we need to eat, we need to consume these things. Docs were trying to rid our loved ones of being able to order these things or have access to them. Certain religious material, books, they would have had a say over the kind of books that would have come through. They would have had vendors which were out of state basically benefiting from the revenue and just capitalising off of essentially our misery and lack of funds. So, once AFJ caught a whiff of this, of course we were not happy. We decided, alongside a number of organisations, that we were going to push back against this DOCS policy. So, this postcard you see me holding here was our way of pushing back. We would ask that family members or anybody we encountered could sign and put their zip code on there as a way to show that they stand in solidarity with us to say, we're not going to allow this to take place. And that involved us doing one of the most important things we do in AFJ, which is the outreach. We go to these bus stops where loved ones are picked up and taken on these 6-hour journeys to go and see their loved one upstate somewhere. And we would stand there and have conversations with the different family members about what's happening. And a lot of them didn't have a clue. They had no idea. And in spreading the word, like Sophia said, it raised a lot of awareness, and the policy was rescinded. So, we can half-clap, because, you know, we've done half the job. So, half a clap. Half a clap. But stop. You have to stop. Because although it's been rescinded, DOCS always has another policy that they're trying to push through. So, we have not stopped doing what we're doing. So, I would ask that if anybody is here that feels passionate like we are about this, please grab a postcard. Take a stack of them and go and give them out to people and have a conversation. And if you can get them to sign their name and their zip code on the back, and we've even paid for the postage, so all you have to do is pop it in a letterbox. Is that what you call it? Letterboxes?

Soffiyah Elijah: Mailbox.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Mailbox. A mailbox.

Soffiyah Elijah: Letterbox is a British thing, I think.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Yeah, mailbox. So just pop it in the mailbox. British, yeah. So yeah, that's one of the things that we're working on as well.

Soffiyah Elijah: Do you want me to talk about the book?

Kevin Barron: Can I just add one thing? Just as a result of— we sent 2,000 postcards, around 2,000 to the governor. That influenced him to rescind the policy. So this stuff works. I just want to add.

Soffiyah Elijah: And part of the way that we were able to be effective is the partnerships that we have formed with organizations across the state. So when we decided we were going to engage in this postcard campaign, we mailed dozens and dozens of bundles of postcards to our various organizational partners that we met during the March for Justice. And they all got postcards signed. Now, some of you might be saying, why didn't you just do a petition campaign? Wouldn't that be easier and cheaper? Well, we know that the governor's office counts pieces of mail. That really has a major impact on him. So one piece of mail is the equivalent of almost 25 signatures on a petition. And a postcard counts just like a letter. And so since we know they count them, we decided to send him thousands of them. Love letters, we call them. And we're continuing this effort because Because no sooner did the governor announce that they were rescinding the package policy, DOC announced that they were only temporarily suspending it. So we know that they're planning to come back with another policy. And in the interim, each of the 54 prisons is doing whatever they want to do with respect to packages, which is causing major confusion all over the state. So we hope that you will join with us and sign the postcards. If you don't want to find a mailbox, which They're not too hard to find these days. We'll even put them in the mail for you. But the main thing is please don't take them and throw them out. If you take them, please get them signed because it's— yeah, we already have stamps on them. The last policy— does any of you— are any of you able to talk about the visiting policy before we talk about rule review? All right, I'll talk about the visiting policy. Last year Governor Cuomo announced that he was going to Reduce in-person visiting at maximum security prisons from 7 days a week to just 3 days a week, which was going to be catastrophic for a whole host of reasons.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: And it obviously was going to have a major impact on family ties. And so our members across the state engaged in a campaign, letter writing, calling, putting pressure on the governor's office and say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, not on our watch. It's not going to happen. And in just a few weeks, they were effective and victorious and got the governor to rescind this idea of reducing visiting. So, this is— these things are very important, not only because the policies need to be rescinded, but also it sends a strong message to our family members that when they take that pain that they feel from having a loved one incarcerated and they feel empowered by putting their efforts together, they really can make a difference. And that, that will— is part of the reason that we believe that we can shut down Attica. Because if we can push back on a visiting policy and on a package policy, if we can galvanize more people, people who are directly impacted and people who care, just like at one point no one thought Rikers could be closed and now it's going to be closed, We can shut down Attica, and we're going to shut down Attica. I do want to have Lily talk about an effort that we're engaged in right now about— well, I won't describe it. Lily, please explain for the audience.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: I'll touch on it just because I know we're conscious of time. One of our volunteers has Hi. Hi. I'm here because I've received a request from her loved one who's locked up, and he asked us to take a look at what are some of the rules that will be reviewed. As we explored this, we went away for a retreat, like, a couple of weekends ago, and ourselves and the rest of our coalition decided to have a chat about some of these rules that will be reviewed. And it's absurd. It's absolutely absurd. They are proposing the idea of removing law libraries. Law libraries are key for people who are incarcerated. Key. Because that essentially is the key to their freedom. There are many people who are considered jailhouse lawyers. Even lawyers who are on the outside respect their work and their efforts, because they have a lot of time. And a lot of time means they have a lot of time to read, Oh, my gosh. If you remove a law library, you are taking away people's freedom and their hope, more than anything, to ever think that they can bring themselves back home. The fact that they are talking about removing law libraries or eliminating things like contact visits, the— again, it blows my mind. So, there's a suggestion in this Royal Review that initial contact visits will be removed. So if you have a husband, a son, a daughter, and they've been moved to another facility or have just gone in for the first time, you won't be able to touch them. You won't be able to kiss them. And these are the kind of ridiculous things that are being proposed. So in AFJ, of course, we caught whiff of this and we're like, nope, not having it. So we have put together— or I should say Akira, thank you, shout out to Akira— she has put together a nice letter that says what we are opposing. And all we ask is that you take some of these letters with you. Do we have some at the back?

Soffiyah Elijah: Yes, a bunch of them.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: We've got some more of these letters at the back. And have a read. It just says all of the things that we're not happy with and we're not going to stand— like, agree with. And if you could just sign your name at the back and put your zip code as well, like Miss Beverly's saying. Again, it's another way for us to push back.

Soffiyah Elijah: And They can leave those here, right?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Yeah, you can leave those here and we will take over from there. But I do ask that please, everybody here, if you could grab some of those, that would be amazing. Because one thing we did realize as well is they've already determined when they're going to review these rules. So is it every 2 years?

Soffiyah Elijah: Yes, every 2 years they're being reviewed, and there's a deadline for this letter of April 1st.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Yeah, April 1st. So we, we need to, one, almost be prophets And try and anticipate what they're going to try and take away or change in the future. But whilst we're here in the present, we need to push back. So I would ask that please, especially with the deadline approaching, you take, you sign, and you leave behind, and we will do the rest. Thank you.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you, Lily. You know, the question—

Carol Harriott: I'm sorry, question. I'm going to do what the audience will do. Do you need to put the address on it, or just zip code?

Soffiyah Elijah: Just the zip code.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: And there's a reason why we say the zip code, because we need people We need it to show that it's from across the state. If people can put their zip code, it doesn't look like it's just coming from Brooklyn. We need to show that everybody across the state is aware of this.

Soffiyah Elijah: And it's interesting, like, you know, as the world becomes more digitized and we use email for everything, we pay for bills online, right? Why would they require that the response to this particular Right. Right? By snail mail. Like, how— I actually know people who have no idea how to write a check because they pay for everything online, okay? But be that as it may, we're flexible, so we adjust to whatever the demand is. So we have the letters printed, we had somebody go through with a fine-tooth comb. Some of you might like to look at the the litany of proposed rules that are up for review, and we have copies of those in the back if you'd like to look at those. But we hope that everybody will sign this letter so that many voices are heard, because what usually happens is the DOCS promulgates a bunch of rules and nobody ever responds, okay, because they don't know. All right, we're fortunate that a guy inside had the time and the intellect And he found the rule and got it out to his wife, and so we could go into action. And that's how we learn about a number of different policies, because the people inside are the true experts, okay? They're living and breathing it every day. And so our job is to support and do what we can do on the outside that they can't do on the inside, okay?

Kevin Barron: Right.

Soffiyah Elijah: So hopefully all of you will take that letter. We have our next The next community organizing meeting is when, Carol?

Carol Harriott: This is in the back also, and it's on April 26th from 6 to 8 at the National Black Theater, 2031 5th Avenue. And we have some in the back, right?

Soffiyah Elijah: Yeah, there's flyers.

Carol Harriott: So there's flyers in the back, so please come out to the meeting. It's very important, because if I didn't come to that meeting, I don't know what I would do. I'd be lost, you understand? This meeting This Alliance of Families for Justice has helped me tremendously. Not only I got someone to talk to, let my guards down, because when my son was— I hate talking, because then I talk about, you know, cry, right, like a little baby. And I hate being like that. When my son got incarcerated, it was very hard for me.

Soffiyah Elijah: Mm-hmm.

Carol Harriott: And if it wasn't for this family that gave me one of these flyers at a bus one night, I probably would be so depressed. I don't know what would have happened. And the organization has helped me, that I now am volunteering for Alliance of Families for Justice.

Soffiyah Elijah: And believe me, people, it's so important, because these family members, you don't know what they're going through.

Kevin Barron: You do not know what they're going through.

Soffiyah Elijah: So it's very important. I'm so sorry.

Carol Harriott: I get so emotional when I talk about this.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you. I met last night, I was at the bus stop.

Carol Harriott: I met mothers, wives.

Soffiyah Elijah: I went to see my son yesterday Friday.

Carol Harriott: I met wives and the things that they're going through with these they're going through. It's so sad to see that we're in 2018 in New York City, America, land of free and justice, and these people are going through so much. There's a mother who got a letter from her son. Her son hasn't. He hasn't eaten food in 3 days because it's in a box. They choose to feed him if they want to, or they choose not to feed him if they want to. There's another mother whose son passed out, a wife. She drove from Florida. She lives in Florida. She drove down and she can only come over every 6 months. She's a schoolteacher, and she can come up when school give recess. Her husband passed out because they forgot to order medicines for her husband. They know he needs this medicine. Okay, I'm talking to people and it's like when I go to the bus stop and meet these people, I cannot get a good report. Oh wow, Doc's been so great to me. I'm— oh, my son, they're fine. My daughter is great. I'm getting all these things and I cannot get that information from— why?

Soffiyah Elijah: Why can't we just receive a good report from Doc?

Carol Harriott: Why are they so powerful? I don't understand. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Sophia.

Soffiyah Elijah: It's okay. Why are they so powerful?

Carol Harriott: I don't understand. Our children is suffering, and you guys, you know, you come to the meeting, you, you know, you do, you listen, but are you doing anything? Are you doing anything, guys? Because everybody in prison is not guilty. And you have watched how many of our brothers, our sisters walked out of jail because Of not guilty because of lack of funds, of lack of good education, of not getting a good lawyer because they can't afford it, are sitting in jail and nothing is happening more than they are being abused. So I'm sorry if I took up too much time. No, it's okay. But you guys, we have to do something. These people saved my life, like I said. I would have— I was so depressed. And when I got to meet Sylvia, she's one of the— and Virginia. Virginia. I'm sorry she's not here to meet you. I talk about them all the time. Some people don't like to say, I see 2 white people at the bus stop in the freezing degrees giving out these flyers, but there was 2 white people at the bus stop giving out these flyers, and it took my heart to see 2 white people at a bus stop at 0 below 2 degrees on a winter night giving out this. So it really affect me to see, well, hey, it may be all white people ain't all that bad. You understand? Yeah, I'm being honest, because the views that I get when I go to the facilities and what I'm hearing from my son— my son said, Mom, you know, sometimes the correction officer, they'll have a bad day. They can't beat their wife. They can't run nobody off the street that try to run them over. They can't— if they get a bad coffee, they can't throw it back at the guy that gave them the bad coffee. So when they come inside and you say, good morning, officer, they say, What you say about my mother? What you say about my mother? And they're ready to beat you down. You understand? It's bad. It's very bad. The system is messed up. And Alliance of Families for Justice, God bless their heart, they're trying to fix it. And I'm behind them 100%. And you guys better get behind them too, because it's very important. Because everybody in jail is not a wicked, evil monster. Thank you. I'm sorry.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: So please come to the meeting. I'm sorry. April 26th, right?

Soffiyah Elijah: Yeah, April 26th. Well, let's open it up for some questions. I'm sure that there's a few ideas. Simon's back there with the mic.

Kevin Barron: Yeah.

Soffiyah Elijah: And, you know, one of the beautiful things about our form of language is that questions end in question marks. So if you want to give a speech, let's hold the speeches till later and get some questions out, because I'm sure that there's some things that you'd Who would like to know? Who has a question? I know somebody does. Okay, first question.

Speaker 1: You were talking— you've been talking about closing Attica, and I was wondering, you've been talking about what you're doing in general, but how is the campaign to close Attica going?

Soffiyah Elijah: We're building up momentum. At first, when we said close Attica, people were like, yeah, uh-huh, but that's impossible, because people couldn't think beyond a certain norm, right? And then we started to unpack it for people. The prison population in New York State has declined drastically. It's dropped by more than 22,000 people over the past 15 years.

Kevin Barron: Wow.

Soffiyah Elijah: And at the same time, the crime rate has dropped by 40%. So it shows that we don't— we can have public safety and not put people in cages.

Carol Harriott: OK.

Soffiyah Elijah: So if we just wanted to crunch numbers, back in 2011, Governor Cuomo closed several prisons. There were 8,000 empty beds in DOC's system at that time. With the facilities that he closed, That closed— that shut down 3,800 beds. Everybody with me on the math?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Yes.

Soffiyah Elijah: So that left 4,200 still empty beds in the system. And remember, the population has continued to decline. So I'll just take a wild guess that there's at least 4,500 empty beds in the DOC system right now. Okay? Attica holds, at capacity, less than 2,000 people.

Carol Harriott: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: So if you were going to do the least humanitarian thing, you could just move those 2,000— under 2,000 people to one of those 4,500 empty beds, and you could shut down Attica immediately. So that would be the quick and dirty fix. And so— and we're not closing our eyes to the quick and dirty fix, because for some people, that's as far as they can imagine it for right now. So we would I would say let's at least start with that, because Attica is so symbolic. But there's Clinton, and there's Great Meadow, and there's Fishkill, and there's Sullivan, and there's Auburn, and there's Wende, and the list goes on and on. And many of the atrocities that happened at Attica also happened at many of these other facilities.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Clinton.

Soffiyah Elijah: Clinton facility that's up in the Adirondacks. I've talked to countless people who were in Clinton decades ago, And they described to me the time when they decided to build a gymnasium. And so they dug up the floor, and under the floor were bones, bones of men who had died in that facility and had just been dumped in shallow graves underneath that facility.

Kevin Barron: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: And so they're continuing— people are continuing to be beaten, not within an inch of their life, but to death in these various facilities. So at the same time that we're talking about closing Attica, and we're talking about raising up the conversation about human rights abuses, we're trying to challenge people's thinking about putting people in cages. Because we know every single behavioral health research study that has been done has shown that punishment does not change behavior. But we are a society that has been We're fed from birth to believe in punishment, even though we know it doesn't work. So we continue to do that. So we're hoping to also challenge people's thinking as to how we could build a better world so that eventually we evolve from the thought that putting people in cages is acceptable. But for now, we know there's 4,500 empty beds that could shut down Attica tomorrow.

Carol Harriott: Okay.

Kevin Barron: Question?

Carol Harriott: Yeah, I have a question in terms of the impact of private prisons on the closing out of public prisons.

Soffiyah Elijah: Do you have any comment on that? Certainly. So in New York State, they don't have private prisons. There are several other states that do, but New York has done a decent job as far as pushing back and What has happened, though, in New York is this other privatization that is attached to prisons. So medical care is privatized, okay? The linen service is privatized. The food service is privatized. And on and on and on. So there's privatization, but the prison itself is not privatized. The operation of the prison isn't privatized. So we must always stay vigilant. When Lily was I was talking a little while ago about the package policy. Docs has announced, and some of you may have heard this, that they are going to suddenly benevolently give out tablets to every person that's incarcerated. All right? How many of you have a tablet, an iPad, or something that looks like that? Okay. How much good is it to you if you couldn't access the internet with it?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: No good. No good at all.

Soffiyah Elijah: It would turn into a glass Frisbee, right? And that's what the tablet is, okay, because the men and women inside are not going to have internet access, okay. So what material is on that tablet is going to be controlled by the vendor who owns it, and the data, the information about how someone uses that tablet is going to be owned by that company, free to sell, and the information about how people think in using the tablet is subject to subpoena. Okay. Everybody follow those— that bouncing ball? Okay. So that— and so there's a— there's a form of privatization with respect to that tablet that can have a very sinister intent. Okay. Thank you for asking that question. Other questions?

Carol Harriott: Can I ask, what can be done about the system when you go to visit, they keep you waiting? I went to visit and I got there earlier than I normally would.

Soffiyah Elijah: I got in the visiting room about 10:20 or 10:30.

Carol Harriott: I sat. I sat and sat and did not go up to ask, you know, whatever, until about 5 minutes or 10 minutes to 12.

Soffiyah Elijah: As I walked up, my son finally came down.

Carol Harriott: And I asked them what was the problem. Because I asked what was the problem and then she didn't respond, I asked to speak to the The person, I don't know what his status is, and he stayed on the phone and would not approach me to find out what I wanted.

Soffiyah Elijah: Now, I waited 2 and some hours for the visit.

Carol Harriott: And because as I was leaving, I said, God don't like ugly, what they did was they said, you would not be able to visit for a week.

Kevin Barron: Wow.

Carol Harriott: And said, no, you won't be able to visit until we send you a letter. Now, what can be done? Because that's abuse. Because I sat there 2 hours. That's not the first time that they have done that.

Soffiyah Elijah: Somebody on this panel want to answer that question? What do you think we could do?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: I want to speak to Ms. Polk. Can you hear me, Ms. Polk? Is that a bit better? Is that a little bit better? Can you hear me a little bit better?

Carol Harriott: Yes.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: I don't want to deafen everybody else though, because if I start shouting— I wanted to say that I had a similar experience. I had gone up to visit a loved one, and when I arrived, for whatever reason, my visit was denied. Um, I probably wasn't so taken aback by the rejection or not being able to gain access, more so the treatment that I experienced from the CO when I was there. First of all, when I walked into the space, they didn't even say good morning, good afternoon. I was speaking to air. You know, I say hello, and I got nothing. And that already, after a 6-hour journey, which has taken its psychological toll on you, is enough to push anyone over the edge.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Because you're going to see someone you love, and they are in a cage, and that's all you think about all the way there.

Carol Harriott: That's right.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: So to get there and then be met with this hostile, cold reception does nothing for us. I took it upon myself to pull that CO to the side when nobody else was around, because I didn't want it to look as though I was trying to challenge her authority or status. And I had a word with her, and I took her into the world of what it feels like to be a loved one traveling to this very moment at this place in time.

Carol Harriott: She's not hearing us.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: I told her— no, she did, Miss Beverly. After speaking with her, I told her that something as simple as a smile can make the world of difference to all of us. Acknowledging our presence and our existence means the world to us, because we are criminalized from the moment we walk into that space anyway. I'm told to take my bra off, I have to take this off, make sure I haven't got this hidden, do drug tests, da da da. Last time I checked, I hadn't done anything wrong. When I spoke to that CO, she was not happy. She was not happy. But something happened and she shifted. And it's because I connected with her on some sort of a personal level. She broke down and she started telling me about the stress that she has to go through with Having to process numbers of people within a certain space of time.

Speaker 1: Right.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: And the pressure that she's getting from up here and how that affects her. So my conversational question to her was, how are we, coming from 2 different positions, going to fix this moving forward? Because this can't continue. And from that point forth, she agreed. She would smile. She would say hello. And I know it didn't make a difference in terms of me gaining access. But one thing I will say is it makes a difference to other people walking into that space. So that's just my— that's how I deal from on an interpersonal level. I want to have conversations with people. But I know you're going into something a lot deeper about the abuse of restricting someone from seeing their loved one.

Soffiyah Elijah: And what we can do collectively, what we can do—

Carol Harriott: They could see if it was once that they did.

Soffiyah Elijah: I understand. So what— and we are attempting to push back on systemic abuses. So one of the things we can do, we can write to the superintendent, the organization can write to the superintendent, we can send love letters to the governor. We know he likes to get love letters, all right? I can call the commissioner. He always knows if I call him, it's not going to put a smile on his face, okay? So there are various ways that we can use our collective efforts, all right? And that's why it's so It's important that we raise these issues so that more and more people know, so that more and more people can add their voices to this effort. So thank you for asking that question. I think someone else had their hand up a moment ago.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Kevin Barron: I wonder, just, you know, the problems here are just amazing, and it seems like a lot of what you're doing is raising awareness.

Soffiyah Elijah: It's like educating.

Kevin Barron: If people know about what you just described, it's horrible. And so people would do more.

Soffiyah Elijah: But that's one thing.

Kevin Barron: But it also sounds like there's this whole—

Soffiyah Elijah: there's a lot of people in favor of prisons. They make money on them. It's an employer. You mentioned the packages. There are vendors who make money on that. So I just wonder, how do you attack both of these?

Kevin Barron: Well, I think that's a very good question. What is the resistance you would face from that, sort of more that the economics of it?

Soffiyah Elijah: First of all, that's a great question also, Marc. Thank you for asking it. You heard us say earlier that we formed partnerships with organizations throughout upstate New York. Almost all of the 54 prisons in New York State are located in upstate Yes. And in most of those communities, they are the centerpiece of an economic life raft, really. Okay? So what we are looking at is the fact that for many of those communities, the young people who are coming up have no other place to turn for a job except to go work in a prison. Okay? And so Part of our effort in building relationships in upstate communities is to build a conversation about how those communities could join us in advocating for a different form of economic support.

Kevin Barron: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: There's— just like when a company decides it's going to go offshore, it's leaving the United States and go someplace else, it sets up an industry in another area where they feel they Right. They're going to get cheap labor. Okay? So it is possible to build new industries in these communities if there was the will to do it. And part of the way to create the will to do it is to help empower people to elevate that conversation and to help them understand that the dinner on their table is at the expense of another family that's suffering in Bed-Stuy, East New York, Brownsville, Harlem, South Jamaica, and on and on. Because for many of them, there's a— you know, we all know there's this upstate-downstate divide. And that was another reason that the March for Justice was so important, is that we could start to break that down. And so people-to-people relationships is how you reach hearts and minds. Other questions?

Lilly Osei-Tutu: Hi. Thank you. We came in late, so apologies if this has already been addressed. In terms of the work that you all do, you mentioned interacting directly with the CEO who you had taken issue with. You talk about CEOs coming to work, cheap labor, and things like that in your last What type of work do you all do to reach out to the people who are working in the prisons to attempt to change hearts and minds? And so in terms of, as like a long-term strategy, like the prison to be shut down, but in terms of, okay, here we are, what do we need to do to make the process better for the people who are having to live in these prisons by working with the people who are working in them?

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you.

Lilly Osei-Tutu: working at these prisons?

Soffiyah Elijah: So first of all, I'm glad you asked that question, because a lot of times people do ask us. Our organization is called the Alliance of Families for Justice intentionally. And our first concern is the families whose lives have been destroyed because they have loved ones who are incarcerated. Okay? That has to be where we start.

Carol Harriott: Yeah.

Soffiyah Elijah: Okay? Our sister Carol here, her son is incarcerated, and it was wrecking her life. Okay? All the families who come to us come to us traumatized, and their loved ones inside are terrorized by the people who get a paycheck Yes. From the state of New York. Okay? So we have to start with the people who are traumatized. Okay? We intentionally partner upstate New York because we know most of the guards live in the regions where our upstate partners are. And so it is our upstate partners who help us build and Yes. And craft what the dialogue will be to reach some of their neighbors. Okay? But our first concern is the families that are being destroyed. Okay? But we are clear that ultimately the way that we're going to take this beast down— and I do call it a beast— is that we will have to build bridges with the people who are employed in those facilities and the people who are incarcerated those facilities. But we also have to get the people who are employed in those facilities to recognize the humanity of the people who are incarcerated in those facilities. And so the awareness that we're focused on building right now is on that. Okay? Yes, question? Yeah, I have a question. Because like, when I did 10 years in prison, and when you mentioned speaking to the officers, Officer at the visit, or like taking collective action against the system. Oftentimes when a letter is sent to Albany or—

Carol Harriott: Thank you.

Kevin Barron: When a letter is sent to Albany or any action is taken as an inmate, funny things start happening. Like they call you to the ID room, you get smacked up, punched in the face, made to sign off on things to say you didn't do anything. There's a lot of physical violence and coercion that takes So what are some of like the action plans that we have in place to ensure that like the individual inside is safe? Like, do we have things in place to like periodically check up on them and whatnot?

Soffiyah Elijah: Yes, we— who wants to do that? Yes, other Carol, go first.

Carol Harriott: Yes, on my son, he was getting a lot of retaliation because we was doing a lot of back and forth, you know, like you said, they They take you out, they beat you, they gas you for no reason, because he's been aware that he's sending letters to Albany, sending letters to the court. And when Alliance of Families got involved, they kind of backed off, because they realized it's not just he's writing and I'm writing, but there's a group of people that's taking notice. Sophia, it's been 5 years. A problem with his throat and stuff like that. Sophia got in touch with the commissioner and they started giving him the medication that he needs. Okay, so the Alliance of Families for Justice is doing what they're doing, but we also have to get our loved ones in there to write and let them know, you know, what's happening to them, because if we don't know, we can't help. Okay, so the retaliation will go on. But is— I mean, he's still being— getting retaliated against, but is it important enough to get a little slapping so 10 other people don't get that slapping? You understand what I'm saying? Which is not right in any form at all. It's not right for you to be beaten. But sometimes you have to take that retaliation so we can take notice, so they can be noticed and other people can be aware of what's going on. So as for some So, Sophia and her Alliance of Families for Justice, they are intertwining with the family members and the people inside there. I don't know if I answered you correctly about the retaliation, but right now they do do that. And a family member, I think they would rather a little retaliation and get noticed than just it still keep going on and on and on.

Soffiyah Elijah: Thank you, Karen. The other thing that we do, Angel, is When we can, we reach out. I usually reach out to the commissioner, and I don't use the name. I don't use the name or the DIN number. I say, there's a situation happening in this facility.

Carol Harriott: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: It happened in this month.

Kevin Barron: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: Need you to look into it. I don't give the date. I don't give any DIN number.

Carol Harriott: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: I don't give the age of the person.

Carol Harriott: All right.

Soffiyah Elijah: So that it's not easy to identify Who it is that brought it to our attention, but I let the commissioner know that we're watching, and he knows we're not at a loss to make a noise. If we had enough nerve to walk to Albany, we sure don't have a problem calling him out.

Carol Harriott: Okay.

Soffiyah Elijah: And so that is how we try to protect against retaliation, and we make it clear to our family members that we need to know from the person inside if they want us to We don't want to use their name, because we will never use their name unless they say, absolutely, we want you to do so. And I ask them to tell us in writing, because I know I'm not there on the 3 to 11 shift when all the mischief happens and people are beaten and killed. Right.

Carol Harriott: Excuse me. And we also have some family members up in— I'm going to mess this word up completely. And the Randalls. Oh, you got it. And the Randalls. We also have family members up there that, you know, if anything happens and they're so close, they'll go and check up on them for us, because that's what happened to me. Lovely Martha, she went to the prison because they beat my son, and I didn't hear from him for about 2 weeks, and I was very scared. So we contacted one of the members that's upstate. They went up there, about an hour and a half away, they was able to go up there. Make sure he's okay. Also, they— what they do is that if you reject, you know, they reject you from seeing your loved one, they'll come and pick you up and take you off for the day, so that you're not sitting there 6 hours to wait for the bus to come back. They will take you up and take you around and, you know, and treat you. They also bring you cookies and hand warmers and, you know, toasty toasties. So, you know, this is not just us.

Soffiyah Elijah: Yeah.

Carol Harriott: It's opened up all the way upstate, and there's people doing work up there also.

Soffiyah Elijah: Yes, question? It's a question and a positive. Who has the microphone?

Speaker 1: I don't know where it is.

Soffiyah Elijah: Oh, here it is. I'd like you to comment more on the groups that support you sometimes in terms of advocacy or Faith groups. So there are people who may not be in the trenches emotionally, but because we all are human beings, we all know that this is wrong and this is our tax dollars. Can you comment? Because there are a lot of groups, you know, that you give advocacy, and it's not personal, but— There are a whole network of churches and organizations organizations that stepped up when we did the March for Justice and who also supported us with the package policy effort with respect to getting the postcards sent in. We mailed them out throughout the state, and people readily got the members of their congregation to sign them. When we stayed in Kingston, we stayed in the LGBTQ center. We took postcards and got them signed. Every minister that we connected with took postcards and got them signed. And they have pledged to stay in contact with us and always ask us to keep them informed about what are the issues we're working on. Because they don't— not everybody has to be walking 180 miles or coming to our monthly meetings But in whatever way people can assist, they do. We have people who intern with us. There's a woman who's helped us, she lives in North Carolina, we've never met her in person. We have students who come and spend 3 weeks with us, or spring break. One young lady came up from Florida, she's a law student down there, and she spent 1 week with us interning because she was— it mattered to her the kind of work we were doing because she has a cousin who's incarcerated. Another young lady, she was getting her PhD at Yale, and she came and spent the summer with us. We have some volunteers who are retired who come and spend time with us. There's a gentleman who works up in Westchester. He comes down on Fridays and spends 6— 4 hours volunteering his time. So there's so many different ways. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That people support our work. Most of the materials that you see, the graphic designer is a young woman who learned about us through a friend of hers. She doesn't have the time to come to our meetings, but she designs anything that we need designed. The palm card about the regional conference, our brochure, our annual report. She's in business for herself, She came and did outreach at night. That's the person that Carol was referencing, gave her material about what we do. And I will readily admit, when she first saw the kind of materials that we had designed, kind of makeshift, she was mortified. Okay? Just like, oh my God, this is like, this is like really embarrassing. I got to help these people. And she took us from looking ragtag to looking professional. Right? And so there's a way for everybody who wants to help to help.

Carol Harriott: Hi.