Ramzy Baroud - My Father Was A Freedom Fighter (2011)

Speaker 1: It was exactly a year ago today that I submitted my book review of My Father Was a Freedom Fighter to the editor of Palestine Solidarity Campaign's magazine. And so it just seems fitting and right that I'm here a year later with Ramzy, and I'm delighted that you're in the UK.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: He's on the last leg of his tour, and so I'm quite happy that he's saved the best till last. So can I ask you to join me in welcoming Ramzy this evening to— Okay. Well, it's, it's the clarity of expression and the textbook account of a complicated history of Gaza against a backdrop of real lives. That made this book such a convincing reading for me. Being all too easy to dismiss the book as yet another version of Palestine's struggle and pain, it paved an unambiguous channel of explanation to the region, to anyone interested in the current turbulent Middle East, and particularly turbulent in the last few months. It pulls together many strands to define the situation in a historical, social, political, economic, geographical, legal, and literary framework, to meticulously position the pieces of the jigsaw to portray a rational explanation for the incensed and continues to be incensed Gaza. I thought the book was articulate yet pithy, educational, full of humility, and witty. The measured buildup of the memoir is wonderful. For example, at the time of being a high school student, in his own words, and confrontations with IDF soldiers around the outbreak of the First Intifada. father, Ramzy, gets into a little bit of trouble. Ramzy's heartrending tale is a loving tribute to his father, Mohammad, who is courageous and valiant, enduring 7 decades of hardship, being driven out of his village to a refugee camp, taking up arms to fight the occupation while trying to raise a family And finally motivating not only his children but the community in which he lived to continue the struggle. In considering Palestinian and Israeli political figures and in the detailed analysis of the reasons behind the events, I think Ramzy enables us to understand many unanswered questions. He explores the growth of political parties and tracks their Evolution dissects probable causes of problems and offers fascinating insights. The geography of the book involves Algeria, Cairo, Jerusalem, Mecca, and Washington, as much as Gaza and the Arabian Desert. Ramzy looks from within and outside the world as he weaves Yes. A narrative incorporating the life of a remarkable man, which could be applied as a familiar tale of many freedom fighters in Gaza, and interprets it in a world context with fine accomplishment. And this evening we're going to take a closer look at the book, and I'd just like to start off by reading you a short passage From the book. Engulfed by my own rebellious feelings, I picked up another stone, and a third. I moved forward, even as bullets flew, even as my friends began falling all around me. I could finally articulate who I was, and for the first time on my own terms. My name is Ramzy, and I was the son of Mohammad, a freedom fighter from Nasirat, who was driven out of his village of Beddaras. Beside the grave of my brother— sorry— and the grandson of the peasant who died with a broken heart, And was buried beside the grave of my brother, a little boy who died because there was no medicine in the refugee camp's UN clinic. My mother was Zarife, a refugee who couldn't spell her name, whose illiteracy was compensated for by a heart overflowing with love for her children and her people, a woman who had the patience of, of I was a free boy. In fact, I was a free man. And this evening we have a free man. Ramzy is here this evening to tell us about that incident onwards. Ramzy.

Ramzy Baroud: First, thank you very much for this lovely introduction and, and for the Middle East Monitor and PSC and all the lovely people who are here tonight. In fact, the story of Gaza doesn't really start in Gaza. It starts somewhere else. It starts in Palestinian villages, 518 of them, that were destroyed by Zionist militias in 1947, 1948. And I think there's this kind of common misconception, and I think it was very politicized and manipulated conception that constantly locates Gaza and associates Gaza as much as the West Bank and Jerusalem to 1967. And it's deliberate in the sense that it denies everything that existed prior to that. So, and that's one thing I tried to do from the onset is I located the story where it should have been located, back in Palestine, in In historic Palestine, in these villages. And I told the story of one of them, and that is the village of Beit Daras. That's the village where I come from, where my family comes from. But I say I come from it, although I've never seen it, I've never been there. I've heard so much about it. But the interesting thing, I've never identified with any other place but that village.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Ramzy Baroud: And that is the same for most Palestinian refugees, whether they are in South Lebanon, in Jordan, in Gaza, in the West Bank, anywhere. This is the reality of it. We come from villages. They don't exist, but they exist in memory. And that's our power, our real power, our ability to connect back to those roots. So I thought it's only proper to start the story from there. And that's how Bid Daraz falls in.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Okay, so the village of Beit Daras has a little passage associated with it.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. Well, before I read the passage to you, I want to tell you that one of the early things I've heard about Beit Daras is an argument that my grandparents used to have all the time about Beit Daras. Apparently in 1948 when the refugees, of Beddaras. And by the way, Beddaras is, you know, there are all sorts of stereotypes about Beddaras, and those from Gaza maybe know this, that Beddarasawis, or people from Beddaras, are known for having large heads. We're always told that you have— you are from Beddaras, you have a large head.

Speaker 5: And it's really—

Ramzy Baroud: it's not that we physically have large heads. I think it's just because we were very, very stubborn people.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Ramzy Baroud: And we took it very personal when the Zionists asked us to leave our village. So we were fighting for Palestine, but we also were fighting for Beit Daras itself. That's why there were 3 battles, ending with the great Battle of Beit Daras and the massacre of Beit Daras as well. And unfortunately, many people never heard of the massacre of Beit Daras, as well as the many massacres that took place in Palestine at the time, simply because they were not validated. By any other narrative aside from the Palestinians. So it kind of been discounted and rubbed out of history. And it's important that we bring it back. But back to the blankets, you know, my grandparents used to have this argument over blankets. And my grandma, Zeynab, was a very— she liked to argue. And grandpa was the imam of the mosque. Back in Beddaraz, very kindly quiet man and he just— but if he did actually push the envelope with her, she would always summon in that argument over the blankets. So this passage is related to the blankets, the new blankets in Beddaraz. Why bother to haul the good blankets on the back of a donkey? Exposing them to the dust of the journey, while we know that it's a matter of a week or so before we return to Beddaras, he told his bewildered wife Zaynab. Many years later, Grandma Zaynab would repeat this story with a chuckle, and Grandpa Mohamed would shake his head with an awkward mix of embarrassment and grief. I, I cannot pinpoint the moment when my grandfather, That beautiful old man with the small white beard and humble demeanor discovered that his good blankets were gone forever, that all that remained of his village were 2 giant concrete pillars and piles of cactus. I know that he had never given up hope to return to Berderas, perhaps to the same small mud brick house with the dove tower on the roof.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Ramzy Baroud: Bidaraz's inconsequential existence of the present would espouse little interest save 2 concrete pillars that once upon a time served as an entrance to a small mosque. Its walls, as those faithful to its walls, are long gone, yet somehow they still insist on identifying with that serene place and that simple existence. On that very spot, on the shoulder of that small hill, huddled between two— between numerous meadows and fences of blooming cactus, there once rested that lovely little village. And also there, somewhere in the vicinity of the two existing giant concrete pillars, in a tiny mud brick home with a small extension used for storing crops and a dovecot tower on the roof, Thank you.

Speaker 1: So did your grandmother and grandfather ever resolve that argument?

Ramzy Baroud: Well, no, obviously not, because Grandpa stayed in a refugee camp until he died many years later. And there's something really interesting I'd like to say here. Grandpa was, was A worldly man in the sense, in the context of the time, of course. You know, he was a basket weaver. And I'm not going to lie to you, he did not own much land. You know, you kind of hear this quite often. My dad used to own enough land where you kind of, you know, run with, you know, with your horse from, you know, dawn till— no, he didn't. He actually had a very small plot of land in Beit Daraas. And I think it's really essential that we remember this. Right. Most of the peasants, most of the fellahin in Palestine, they come from very humble backgrounds. They did not— and that is really interesting because when this conflict is being defined, it's always defined based on material values. It's a territorial struggle. And of course, in part it is. But for us, our relationship with the land wasn't that of the the actual tangible value. It was of what it actually meant to us. So Grandpa lived with this idea that one day he will go back to Beit Daraz, although once again his return would be to a very tiny plot of land back in Beit Daraz.

Speaker 1: All right. And so what happened in Gaza?

Ramzy Baroud: Well, in Gaza now, the refugee— before the refugees became refugees, There was a struggle, and that is— that led to Nakba. And I know that we often associate Nakba, and we should, with the humanitarian catastrophe that it yielded. But I think in a way sometimes we overlook the fact that there was much more than Nakba. There was much more than the mere catastrophe. There was a resilient nation there. Well-defined, self-assertive, that fought so very hard. And they did not let go that easily. And Grandpa Mohamed was one of them. In Beit Daraz, they had 6 rifles. 2 did not work. And they fought until the end. And again, it resulted in the massacre of Beit Daraz. But then, of course, a decision had to be made. And it was a— it wasn't really thought through. I mean, there was no— I traced Beit Daras back to 1250, and I know that it existed prior to that, but it was mentioned in Mamluk writings. 1250, there was a post office in Beit Daras, and all the conquerors that came and left never really destroyed Beit Daras, except the Zionists. They did. So you can imagine that people live with that historical understanding of their existence, of where they belong, of who they are. And that long, long relationship to history, and suddenly they have to face the fact that it's all over. So they haven't really made plans of what do we do next. And there's a passage, if you don't mind me reading, when they finally made up their mind and they decided to leave.

Speaker 1: We are going to bring the conversation to Gaza today a little bit later on.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Ramzy Baroud: Grandpa Mohamed mounted his faithful donkey with a few of the family's belongings and young daughter Maryam. Ibrahim was in his mother's arms. Ahmed walked alongside his father. And my father, Mohamed, barefoot and confused, trotted behind. It was another Trail of Tears of sorts. Neither parent had answers to the children's incessant questions.

Speaker 5: Where are we going?

Ramzy Baroud: They headed south. That was all they knew. First to Asdod, then to Hammamiyah, then to Gaza. Everywhere they settled, they were, they were chased with mortars and airplanes and bombs. As the bombardments progressed and more villages were razed, the roads became more and more populated, some people carrying on with a great sense of urgency. Others wandering aimlessly and in a daze. Grandpa Muhammad was a man of faith. He insisted that if the Arabs were to abandon the Palestinians, God would not. Muddied with bloody feet and empty bellies, the children could hardly argue with their father's wisdom. Even as they passed an occasional body in the middle of the road or a frantic mother running the opposite direction, Weeping for her lost children. God will take care of us, Grandpa Mohammed encouraged. Yet there was no one in sight but fleeing refugees, blown-up bodies, starved children, and crying women. What kept Beit Dara standing for 1,000 years can always bring it back, he insisted. But the many trucks and numerous donkeys walking the dirt road loaded with whatever families managed to salvage Yes. Told of another story. The number of refugees was growing by the hour. In Beit Daras, everyone knew everyone, but not anymore. The number of familiar faces was dwindling. Many died, many fled elsewhere, and those heading to Gaza were now joined by so many new faces, equally pale and teary, from numerous villages that extended beyond the world of Beit Dawas. So now they end up in Gaza and they have to deal with this new reality. It was a completely alien world for them. And I think, I mean, it's really difficult to even try to communicate that in words. I mean, you have the psychological element here that I'm completely uprooted.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Ramzy Baroud: There is no prospects of, you know, thinking of anything beyond survival at this Gaza at the time had about 80,000 people, largely nomadic tribes, but small Christian and Muslim communities in urban areas. And really, in historical terms, overnight over 200,000 people just ended there. And there was no one, no one there for their aid, except later on the Quakers came. And that's why I have this—

Speaker 1: But all the time the feeling that They were going to go back any minute.

Ramzy Baroud: That, that in fact existed, existed until the War of 1967. And there's a little story, if you don't mind me sharing, about the going back any minute thing, is that Bramba had a radio transistor that was always kind of turned on the news, always. And, and when he had faith that the Arabs would come and liberate us, it was turned on the Saudi Arab Ooh. The Arab Voice. And after 1967, naturally, he turned to another channel. And I think when he died, it was Monte Carlo. And, you know, I'm sure that he would have lost faith of it by now. But at the time, there was— and he was under the impression that there would be this broadcast on the radio that did not say the refugee problem has been resolved, people can go back home. No, he was actually under the impression That the broadcast would state, people of Beit Daras, go home. And as a result, I had, you know, an uncle, his name is Munir. He was, you know, he kind of liked to tease Grandpa. So what he would do, the moment that Grandpa would walk away from the radio, he's in the kitchen, in the bathroom, he's doing something somewhere, and then he would yell, Dad, Dad, they're saying something about Beit Daras. And then Grandpa would come running back to the radio. And I thought, OK, the 10th time he said this, you should have discovered that he's lying. And he did it 500 times, and every single time, I know that Grandpa knew that he was lying. But I think he had this faint hope that what if they are indeed saying something about the Arabs?

Speaker 1: Or maybe a superstitious idea that if he didn't go running back to the radio, then it wouldn't happen. So he had to do it. Okay. And so then did your father become involved in any way with defending Gaza? Did he move on to becoming a freedom fighter?

Ramzy Baroud: Okay. Let me—

Speaker 1: Did he join up? Did he enlist or was he sort of gradually—

Ramzy Baroud: Well, he didn't because he was still 10 at the time. So in Gaza he was 10.

Speaker 1: Eventually.

Ramzy Baroud: And there was really nothing in Gaza as far as survival is concerned except of relying on the trickles of aid that were coming and also on begging. So he began to beg along with, of course, thousands of of children in Gaza. But what do you do when everybody is poor? I mean, where do you go begging? And one of the places where he went was the Egyptian army encampments. Now the Egyptian army was defeated.

Speaker 1: Nothing's changed there then.

Ramzy Baroud: Right. And they were, you know, they are still in Gaza at the time. And he would go and he would extend his arm through the fence and along with so many children would be hanging around all the time hoping for You know, a piece of bread. And that's what he did. And of course you can imagine the level of humiliation that he felt—

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Ramzy Baroud: As a child going through this. But I think there, and you know, that was the moment where really the whole concept of freedom fighting, I think it was directly related to the loss of Palestine and the level of collective humiliation that was felt by the Palestinian refugees. And I've got to add something here. When we think violence and nonviolence, resistance or no resistance, we all almost kind of subscribe to this discourse that this is almost like a technical question or a tactical question. You know, should Palestinians use violence or— and I say if you really truly appreciate Palestinian history, again the way it is, not the way we think it ought to be, you would truly understand that resistance in Palestine goes back to so many years and was not a matter of strategy. It was a matter of necessity. And that's how the fedayeen concept, the freedom fighters, became part and parcel of the Gaza, collective Gaza psyche at the time.

Speaker 1: All right. Okay. And now I think we'll move the story on a little bit to the next part. Regarding the marriage?

Ramzy Baroud: No, I think there's a couple of things I wanted to touch upon before.

Speaker 1: So, okay, so let's go rewind a little bit. So the freedom fighter, your father would then continue and join up?

Speaker 6: That's right.

Ramzy Baroud: Well, let me tell you how his link to the Fedayeen started and then we'll take it from there.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Ramzy Baroud: The Fedayeen were mostly Palestinian guerrilla commandos that took their daring strikes deep inside Israel. They were mostly young Palestinian refugees but also included some Egyptian fighters who operated outside the scope of their government, Islamic fighters and others. Their operations grew bolder by the day. They would sneak into Israel like ghosts in the night with primitive weapons and homemade bombs. They would kill Israeli soldiers, steal their weapons, and return with the new weapons the second night. Some would sneak back to their villages in Palestine. They would steal food, blankets, and whatever money they had saved but failed to retrieve in the rush of war. Those who never returned received the funerals of martyrs. Where thousands of refugees would, would march carrying symbolic coffins into some graveyard. Indeed, hundreds wouldn't return and few bodies were ever recovered. Following every Fida'iin strike, the Israeli army would strike Gaza's refugees, inspiring yet more support and recruits for the growing commandos— commando movement. Muhammad saw in the Fida'iin and their stories A heroic escape from his humiliating life. Freedom fighting became his new calling. The Fida'iyyin was the antithesis to his humiliation and submissiveness, and a manifestation of all the anger and frustration he felt. He wanted to go back to Beit Daras so badly that he would constantly investigate whether any of the commanders passed by his village had a glimpse of his old school. He offered his services as a watchman for the Fida'iyyin as they made their initial and most dangerous crossovers into Israel. He would try to impress his family with his bravery and join a resistance group as soon as possible. But he didn't, not yet at least.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Ramzy Baroud: Instead, he ran away from home and he ended up in the middle of the Sinai Desert. All right.

Speaker 1: So can you just— I know you have one or two stories about his foray into the desert and his trip to Saudi Arabia. Right.

Ramzy Baroud: Yes. You know, there was a period of self-introspection, you know. He wanted to run away basically. And he knew that Bidrash was not an option.

Speaker 1: He hadn't fallen in love yet.

Speaker 4: No.

Ramzy Baroud: Not yet.

Speaker 1: Not yet.

Ramzy Baroud: Yeah, I'll tell you about this part later.

Speaker 7: Okay.

Ramzy Baroud: And he basically kind of jumps on this train that connected— there was this train that used to go all the way through Palestine and, you know, through Gaza to the Sinai Desert all the way to Cairo. But after the war, of course, there was this disconnect and he could not— and the train would not go to Palestine anymore. So operated— it operated from Gaza to Egypt through Sinai. That was after the war of 1956. That's when the United Nations or international forces were brought into Sinai. And he knew nothing of this. He just wanted to run away from it all. So he jumps in an empty cart in the train and he goes to Sinai and he sees the United Nations soldiers standing there waiting for the train to arrive. He panics and he jumps out and he runs into the desert. And he finds himself living with this Bedouin tribe. And, you know, those of us familiar with Bedouin cultures in Palestine, you would know their legendary generosity. They are generous beyond belief.

Speaker 1: So did he drink lots of coffee?

Ramzy Baroud: Oh, obviously he did. But at the time, he— you know, in Bedouin culture, they say that they can't ask a stranger about his name if he is seeking shelter in their dwellings for 3 days and a third. 3 days makes sense, you know, to give that person enough time to— but the third still really kind of— I don't understand why the third. But in any case, he found himself there. And then he decided to stay, and they welcomed that. But he wanted to contribute somehow to life in the tribe. And then he made some outrageous claims. What was that? One of them, he knew that nobody knew how to read or write in there. And he made the first claim that he was literate. And he could really— I mean, that was outrageous in the sense that he could barely read or write. And then he made another one that he's actually scholarly, he can actually teach. And a third one, which is even more dangerous, he claimed that he could teach them the Quran. So overnight he becomes a Quranic teacher.

Speaker 1: Oops.

Ramzy Baroud: And here they would be sitting and he would be kind of reading and then he would be making up all these, you know, the meaning of the Quran as he carried on.

Speaker 1: So obviously the gene of storytelling continues to his grandson.

Ramzy Baroud: But he— there was this inquisitive student.

Speaker 1: And his son.

Ramzy Baroud: There was an inquisitive student who used to ask, like, okay, maybe, maybe he's illiterate, but certain meanings are obvious in the Quran. You just said this, but the verse clearly says that. And that's when my dad kind of came up with this notion that questioning his explanation is really like equivalent to questioning the Quran itself. So the poor guy basically kind of held back and said absolutely nothing. And he got away with it for about a year. And then he decided to go back to Gaza. And there was this kind of— so Kind of, you know, self-assertiveness. Kind of he found himself in the desert, and he was kind of in a way a changed person, and he immediately joined the army.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Ramzy Baroud: And it was the Egyptian army at the time.

Speaker 1: Okay, so your father joined the Egyptian army, and did he— was he in it for very long?

Ramzy Baroud: Not very long. It was perhaps a year or so. And I don't think there were much in terms of battles at the time. He was obsessed with Russian literature. He loved the whole concept of solidarity. He just liked that. And in fact, he used to make these claims that he was a communist. Really, he wasn't. He used to say that he was. I mean, he prayed 5 times a day and everything. But then he used to talk a great deal about about modes of production and the Second International and all of this. And many of the refugees in Gaza would, you know, like, modes of production? I mean, there's nothing but citrus in Gaza, you know. But he insisted that there is a world beyond Gaza and there is international solidarity. And one day, only if the proletariat of the world unite at the right time, you know, everything is going to be okay. So he would be sitting as a soldier during his breaks under a fig tree. I'm not sure if it's still in Maghazi. Youssef, you need to check for me, please. But there's this tree. He used to always hang around and read his books there. And that's when my mom, who was about 15 at the time, would be walking back and forth. And that's where he saw her and he fell in love.

Speaker 1: Okay. So that was the moment A turning point where he, Mohamed, kind of got slightly diverted from his communist books and maybe fighting for freedom for a little while.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. Even a warrior needs a time of rest sometimes. And he goes, he asks her mom for her hand, and she asked for really outrageous— she had outrageous demands. You know, I'm not sure, you know, if things have changed in Gaza recently, but if I remember correctly, the culture there, we had a very specific way of asking for dowry. So you would kind of ask, for example, you always had to have a brand new watch of a very good quality placed inside a purse, you know. So the purse and the watch is something that he needed to bring, and of course the necklace and the bracelet and all of this. And the bride's parents would accept that?

Speaker 1: And of course he couldn't afford to do that.

Speaker 8: He couldn't.

Ramzy Baroud: So he had to go to Saudi Arabia. And he did all sorts of things in Saudi Arabia. You know, there's a section in the book called Mecca, Anyone? And he basically kind of crosses the desert in Egypt and he ends up, you know, crosses the Red Sea and he ends up being there in Mecca. We do not know what—

Speaker 1: He tries to go there several times, doesn't he?

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. And he gets there finally and he becomes a barber in Mecca. And again, he really didn't know anything.

Speaker 1: He has a series of different jobs.

Ramzy Baroud: He did. But I think the most interesting—

Speaker 1: And he became very popular with a certain clientele.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. Now you are reminding me of that story.

Speaker 1: So perhaps we could share that.

Ramzy Baroud: Well, I think, you know, yes, I will tell you that story. But it's important that I'm highlighting these stories to tell you how resourceful Palestinians are.

Speaker 1: Well, and they continue to be.

Ramzy Baroud: Yes. And, you know, I mean, with Under the Siege, for example, you know, I mean, who had ever thought that you can run a car on falafel oil? But they did. And there's a million other ways, you know, of survival. And he's just part of that culture as well.

Speaker 1: Totally environmentally friendly too.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. But, you know, all of Gaza smelled like falafel for weeks. Yeah, one of the things he did there was he had a table in which he sold his knickknacks and he has some sort of a cream. I really have no idea what it is.

Speaker 1: This is in Mecca?

Ramzy Baroud: In Mecca, yeah. And there's this lady, she was a Somali woman who lived in Mecca and she came and she asked him, she said, you know, I can't, I have this fever and I have all these problems and my body aches and all of this. And he wanted to make a sale, I mean, you know, so he goes, well, take this cream and just rub it all over, wrap yourself in a blanket. And we're talking about Mecca in the summer here. And just don't do any— just, you know, lie in bed until the morning and you're going to be just fine.

Speaker 1: It was a good job she didn't go under the sun with all that oil.

Ramzy Baroud: And she did. And he said the next day she came and she was charging, you know, coming from the opposite. And he said, oh no, this is the lady I— and he thought it was just a little— and she actually came.

Speaker 6: Big trouble.

Ramzy Baroud: Yeah, exactly. He thought he was in big, big trouble. And then she came and she told him, God, Bless you, what a wonder. I mean, I feel no pain and all of this. And then he becomes really popular among the middle-aged ladies with ailments. Exactly, with all sorts of ailments.

Speaker 1: Come see the young man, he'll give you a potion.

Ramzy Baroud: But finally he makes his fortune and he goes back to Gaza.

Speaker 1: And does he buy the dowry?

Ramzy Baroud: He does, he does. And of course, You know, the dowry included sunglasses. That was essential. And it was essential because sunglasses were—

Speaker 1: In those days, yeah.

Ramzy Baroud: It was a big luxury, but they were particularly important because international forces and aid workers who came to Gaza, they brought sunglasses with them. And then, you know, to be kind of stylish and modern, people asked for sunglasses. So he was asked to bring sunglasses and he did. Can I read the passage about that?

Speaker 1: Please do, yes.

Ramzy Baroud: In a refugee camp, a wedding is a most happy occasion for the entire community. Rarely do the refugees gather with such enthusiasm and joy amid song and dance and piles of couscous and baklava. Indeed, Mohammad and Zarifa's wedding was most memorable. Women gathered from near and far to get a glimpse of the lovely young bride who took who took center stage in her mother's house. The zaffa or the wedding parade crossed one refugee camp into another amid celebration and song, and joined by hundreds of refugees. Zarifa wore her white gown, which Muhammad had purchased in Egypt, and naturally. Wore the sunglasses throughout the entire ceremony, even in shade, and throughout the evening celebration. During the procession to Mohammed's neighborhood, flocks of little children chased after Zarifa chanting, the bride is international, the bride is international. This reference was, of course, to her sunglasses, an item that was introduced to Gaza by international aid workers and forces that made a brief appearance in Gaza after the Israeli withdrawal at the end of the 1956 war. Zarifa took so much pride in that designation and held on her sunglasses for years until they mysteriously disappeared.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's a sweet story. And maybe Youssef can give us an update with regards to the sunglasses in Gaza.

Speaker 9: There was a lot of questionable stuff going on there, especially with the young people.

Speaker 6: We, some of them were brought in through the tunnels.

Speaker 7: Oh, thank you.

Ramzy Baroud: That's great. So the legacy continues.

Speaker 1: It's just a slightly different way. All right. So parents got married and obviously—

Ramzy Baroud: And Muhammad joins the army.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Ramzy Baroud: But this time it wasn't the Egyptian Army. And of course, you know, we are skipping chapters here and I am not touching on the politics, but I truly tried to situate the personal narrative within the larger collective and even political narrative.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Ramzy Baroud: So he joins not the Egyptian Army, he joins the Palestine Liberation Army, which is a product of the PLO. at the time, but really more or less it was still under the command of the Egyptian army, but was largely made of Palestinian fighters and he was one of them. And of course the mood was very high. I mean, people— 2 things.

Speaker 1: Believed.

Ramzy Baroud: People believed that the war is going to be won. And the second thing, they were not talking of anything at the time but going back, to the point that the term return was included in the way that the soldiers were training for battle. So they would be jumping through hoops and that sort of things, and they would be screaming, Huda, Huda, Huda, which means return, return, return. So that was the rally cry for the Palestinian fighters at the time. They really made that association so very clear. But unfortunately, and as you know, the war, you know, was lost in a very humiliating way. And the dream of return at the time was And instead of Mohammed coming back victorious to Zarifa, and now she has her daughter Suma with her in the Nuseirat refugee camp, he gets wounded. And he finds himself being hauled into Egypt. And Zarifa is stuck at an orchard in Gaza waiting for him to come back. And I'm going to—

Speaker 1: So that's the passage from around '67.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 6: Okay.

Ramzy Baroud: Mohamed was barefoot. His army boots were too heavy and his toes blistered and bled. His legs were wounded from shrapnel, yet somehow he felt no pain. He watched the blood slowly flowing from his wounds and did nothing. The air smelled of blood and salt. The haggard army truck that carried Mohamed across the desert was now An all-purpose vehicle transporting living, wounded, but mostly dead soldiers. Those killed, Palestinians and Egyptians, were piled atop one another in no specific order. Some of the wounded were quietly uttering Quranic verses, those that one would recite before his last breath. The truck sped through Sinai, which was no longer barren. For it was speckled with burnt vehicles, scattered bodies, and boots. There were so many boots, the exact same kind that Muhammad still held between his arms. They filled the desert like uprooted trees, and around them were barefooted men lying still. Hiding in an orchard, Zarifa slipped under a tree. She was all alone and she was afraid. She woke up to a violent commotion, noises partly made in a foreign language with which she was not familiar. The voices drew near. They were abrasive and commanding, interrupted or joined by screams, submissive words pleading in Arabic. For God's sake, don't take him. He's, he's only a child. I swear by Allah, soldier, my son has never hurt anyone. Please spare him, and may you return safe and sound to your own mother. Such exchanges would soon end with a hail of bullets, then silence, then more screams and shouts in a language with which Zarifa was hardly familiar. But soon after, the commands were loud and clear, barking in a strange but comprehensible Arabic accent through a loudspeaker. To all of those hiding in the orchard, come out with your hands on your heads. Those who violate the army's order will be shot at once. As Zarifa walked slowly forward, she discovered that she was not alone in that terrible place. Hundreds like her, mothers with their children, old men and women, all began moving in one direction, some quietly whimpering, others in complete silence. Once the crowd emerged from behind the trees, Zarifa came face to face with the Israeli soldiers.

Speaker 1: So that was the kind of first taste that your father had of freedom fighting, real freedom fighting with a passion and with injury. And it was the first time that he met the Fida'iyyin and And how do you— how did that affect him? What did that in actuality feel to him?

Ramzy Baroud: Well, the fact was he was a big fan of Gamal Abdel Nasser. He used to call himself a Nasserite. And he was a big fan of Nasser because there was a spirit of resistance that, you know, was espoused. During that era, and he was part of it. So he wasn't, you know, on the sideline watching things unfold, but he was very much a part of it. And the change, I think, from being a member of the Egyptian Armed Forces to being a member of the Palestine Liberation Army was also part of that transformation, not only in his character but also in the collective Palestinian experience. We are becoming more confident, more aware of our own power as a nation. But there was much hope then.

Speaker 8: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I think at the time it was— Gamal Abdel Nasser was seen as somebody who was going to do it for them.

Speaker 10: That's right.

Ramzy Baroud: And until now you find lots of pictures of Gamal Abdel Nasser.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. And that love continues until today. I mean, you go to Palestinian homes Everywhere in Palestine. Yes, in the hotels. And you would find pictures of Gamal Abdel Nasser. He meant that much really. But of course after the defeat, after the Naksa of '67, things were beginning to change and the language and the discourse was beginning to change as well. We are no longer talking about return, at least some. We were talking about new realities, about the occupied territories. That was not part of the of the political dictionary. The Arabs met in Khartoum, in fact, in Egypt, in Sudan, almost immediately after the war. And that was the debate that they had. What are the new ceiling of demands? And of course, the refugees, as far as they are concerned, it was Beit Daras. That was the ceiling of demands, you know, as a microcosm of everything else. But for them, for the Arab leaders, now they understand that there's a new reality.

Speaker 5: Right.

Ramzy Baroud: And the Palestinians could not accept it and they refused to accept it until today. Muhammad also refused to accept that his fate is now will lead him to Israel as a cheap laborer. Remember, he's an, you know, he's a principled man. He would not put up with this. So he decided to leave Gaza once more and to find work elsewhere.

Speaker 1: And where did he go?

Ramzy Baroud: Oh, he'd been to many places. He worked in Lebanon as a construction worker. He worked in agriculture in Syria. And nothing worked for him. And finally he ended up in Saudi Arabia. And he was not on his own. This time he had my aunt's husband. His name is Rasmee. I changed the name in the book to Rafiq, fearing liability, because I wasn't very kind to Rasmee. He was a nice man, but he loathed the very idea of work. He just didn't like it. He would be hanging around at the coffee shop We called the casino, the beach casino of Nosairat. It's really not a casino, of course, in the traditional sense, just tables and coffee and 7-Ups. But he would be playing poker there all day and my dad was forced to take him, you know, to do something, you know, with him and help him feed his family. So they end up in Saudi Arabia. They are in a small town near Jeddah. And they put it all on the line and they decide to invest. And they invested in a falafel stand. And that's the falafel terrorist part, so if you don't mind me reading it.

Speaker 1: Okay, so Ramzy is going to read the part of the book called The Falafel Terrorist. It's very funny.

Ramzy Baroud: Mohamed fired up the grill and his sidekick Rafiq finalized the falafel mix. Things seemed to be moving in the right direction. Mohammed's expectations were falling into place as a simple sign promising cheap price for an exquisite meal generated much interest, including, regrettably, that of the local police, alarmed at the presence of many immigrants standing in one long line. For falafel was perhaps an unknown delicacy in parts of Saudi Arabia at the time. Mohammed calculated that once the first batch of falafel was ready, He would send Rafiq with a few warm sandwiches to pacify the snooping police and keep them at bay. Together, Mohammad dreamed that these two would make their fortune and return to their families with wealth unimaginable. He let his daydreams get away from him as he called to the crowd that they were in for one of the greatest culinary experiences of their lives. Rafiq, known for his laxity and negligence, Claimed to have followed the falafel recipe to the letter, but with one critical component Rafiq had improvised, adding excessive quantities of sodium bicarbonate, insisting that it would give their falafel a unique and electrifying taste. At least that's what Mohamed later claimed and Rafiq fervently denied. Regardless, when the first patties were dropped into the hot oil, Amid the growing anticipation of the ever-swelling crowd, disaster struck. Overwhelming amounts of the electrifying secret ingredient caused the falafel to take off and erupt like mini bite-sized grenades. Hot oil splattered everywhere. Morsels exploded in midair, and a confused crowd ran in fright, as did the police. Oh my God. Goddamn you, Rafiq! Goddamn you a million times!

Speaker 5: You ruined me!

Ramzy Baroud: What have you done? What did you put in the falafel? Mohamed bellowed as they both ran for cover. Rafiq's electrifying ingredient was enough to place a warrant on Mohamed and his companion for disturbing the peace. The falafel terrorists fled the country, never to return, leaving behind the falafel stall and what could have been a successful business venture. محمد returned to Gaza with no money and with no intention of ever leaving again.

Speaker 1: Thank you. And what did Zarifa make of that?

Ramzy Baroud: Well, I'm sure that she was very happy to see him back.

Speaker 1: Find out. Yes, you have to find out. Yes, absolutely. You have to. If you haven't bought the book already, they're available tonight. And anyway, more about that later. OK. We're going to fast forward a little bit in the book and jump to the 1987 Intifada.

Ramzy Baroud: To the Intifada.

Speaker 1: And there's a passage there that I'd like to read.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right. But maybe I should kind of set this up somehow.

Speaker 1: Set it up for us.

Ramzy Baroud: Yeah, in 1987 is the first Palestinian uprising. We lived in a— we lived in the heart of the refugee camp. So let me kind of help you try to envision this.

Speaker 1: So the Intifada brought much sorrow and, you know—

Ramzy Baroud: Of course.

Speaker 1: One of the saddest events was the passing away of your mother.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right.

Speaker 1: Is that right?

Ramzy Baroud: And we will be talking about this in a second, but let me first try to position the, you know, our relationship to the Intifada. Now, this is of course a popular uprising. It's people's power at work. It was very difficult because articulating the demands politically was extremely difficult because we did not have, you know, we did not have the kind of leadership, unfortunately, That was able to reflect the general demands of the Palestinian people. But as far as the people themselves were concerned, they really held true to their rights and they fought the good fight for years, they did, from 1987 until— largely until Oslo was signed in 1993. My house was located in the center of the refugee camp. The area in front of the house was called the Red Square.

Speaker 1: Right.

Ramzy Baroud: You know, for many people were killed and wounded there. So because of the blood, it's the Red Square. To the left, we had the Martyrs' Graveyard, also self-explanatory. And in front of us, there was the Great Mosque. So it was really a, you know, very obvious relationship. Kids come there, they gather, they battle Israeli soldiers with their stones, they get killed, they get— they take them to the mosque for prayer.

Speaker 10: Right.

Ramzy Baroud: And then they take them to the martyrs' graveyard to be buried. Whenever the soldiers came to the camp, they would immediately— they would position themselves in that red square, and my house would be the first that they would raid. And in order for my dad, being the very clever person that he was, he kind of developed ways to, you know, kind of to stand the test of time. between the soldiers and his children, and he was very smart about it. And there is a passage I would like to read about this.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Ramzy Baroud: In our sitting room also sat a basket overflowing with miscellaneous pairs of spectacles in an array of styles, and many of them taped together and had missing lenses. Beside the basket sat a large stack of books, old classics, From Homer to Hugo, Aristotle to Zola, ready for an impromptu read at a moment's notice. My father was one of the most ingenious men I've ever met. When you looked at him, you could see the wheels turning in his brain, spinning to soup up a crazy business deal that only he could pull off, or some new creative way to keep the ever-present Israeli forces at bay. So this is how the stage is set. We all line up and we carry thick books and we just sit there and we put glasses randomly on, his old glasses. The soldiers will come in and my dad will explain to them in Hebrew that his kids— hi, Mamoun— that his kids are actually scholars. They're not troublemakers. And so there's this specific episode. I particularly remember an episode on a sunny curfew afternoon when we had little time to set the stage before the door was kicked in. I grabbed a copy of Maxim Gorky's Mother and buried my face in its pages, afraid to look up or make eye contact with those who broke the door down and announced themselves as Jews when they stormed into our home. My father would put up He would put on the most amazing performance. He would grab the old cane that leaned against the wall beside the door for that— for these very instances and would limp so convincingly to the sitting room where he would explain in his impeccable Hebrew that his sons were not troublemakers but scholars. As my father pointed out the fact that we were all enthusiasts of higher literature, I breathed out of the pages of my book to find out that my younger brother Munir, who sat across the room from me, wore a pair of glasses that had no lenses at all. He would reflect— he was reflectively taking in another classic but hadn't noticed that he was holding the book upside down. Although these moments were terrifying, I had to bite down on my tongue to keep myself from bursting into laughter. God knows what might have happened if Munir or I would have blown our cover.

Speaker 1: Thank you. So jumping to the 1987 First Intifada, we once again in the history of Gaza, we see It's bringing much sorrow, and one of the saddest events was the passing away of your mother. And, um—

Ramzy Baroud: There's a passage that I was hoping that you would read. Is that possible?

Speaker 1: Sure. This particular passage is called The Car Downstairs. I was awakened by a friend who told me in a somber voice that my parents were home. He wanted to elaborate, but I gave him no chance, throwing the COVID to the side and running to wave to them from the roof. My father was being embraced by neighbors as he stood by a truck with an open flatbed. Inside the truck was a coffin draped with a Palestinian flag. It was my mother. My father soon came upstairs. He hugged us and we all cried. He gave me a small plastic bag filled with knickknacks that my mother had had bought me in Egypt. She sent to you her love and many kisses, my father said. I hid her gifts under my mattress and joined the rest to the refugee camp to bury her. Nuseirat was under a curfew, and the Israeli army agreed to allow her burial on the condition that the only The immediate family was to be present, under the monitoring of Israeli soldiers. We arrived at the graveyard carrying the coffin and were soon joined by Maryam, Zarifa's mother, who came running into the graveyard calling out her daughter's name. We began digging. But neighbors peeking through their windows quickly concluded that Zarifa had died and was being buried. My mother was a beloved neighbor. She was particularly adored among the older women of the group, whom Zarifa treated with untold kindness. Allahu Akbar! resonated a voice coming from one of the refugee homes. Umm Anwar has died. God is great! God is great! cried another. And within minutes, shouts of God is great! echoed through the camp. People appeared from everywhere carrying Palestinian flags. Women, children, old men and women, and youth all descended onto the graveyard. Refugees were outraged that the poor woman was to be buried subject to Yes. —military restrictions and was to be followed even to her grave under the watchful eyes of the occupiers, their guns, tanks, and a hovering army helicopter. Youth began throwing stones, and soldiers responded with bullets and tear gas. But the people were not to disperse easily this time. Thousands of them ensured that Zarifa would depart the earth and enter paradise in the company of friends, treated as a martyr should be treated. As an ambulance hauled some of the wounded to the local clinic, Zarifa was lowered into the ground amidst chants and Quranic verses recited by everyone. Shouts of Allahu Akbar! Were intermingled with the whimpers and prayers of the crowd, the sound of bombs, the tear gas, and the hovering helicopter. My mother was 42 years old when she died. So I guess, um, that backdrop continues today, and Now, we'd like to move the discussion on to wider political issues of people continuing to die in Gaza today. So, Ramzy, you know, How does that make you feel?

Ramzy Baroud: Well, the reason I actually wrote this book, it wasn't necessarily about me exposing my family or trying to share stories. It is because I felt that the Palestinian narrative has been neglected, frankly.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Ramzy Baroud: Or it has been discolored or tainted somehow. There's something that I call history by association. It's when we try to tell our history because we know that it will not be accepted the way it is for many reasons, including racism and dehumanization of the Palestinian people. So what we do is we do this 2 kinds of history actually. History of negation, which is trying to prove through our history that we are not what you think of us. So I'm going to tell you why Palestinians are not terrorists or just trying to always respond to an already created discourse about who we are. So that's the history of negation. And the history of association, well, in order for For me to explain to you and to make my cause more relevant, amiable, I have to constantly borrow from other historical experiences, which is important, I think. Apartheid of South Africa or American imperialism in South America and so forth and so on. But at the end of the day, our history ended up being kind of a concoction of so many different versions of history. The authentic history of Palestine and the authentic narrative is not centralised in all of this. It's almost always on the margin. And I felt that it's really time to change this. And of course, it wasn't, you know, I wasn't the only one. I mean, we have some wonderful authors out there with great books trying to de-alienate the same discourse. And I think it's really important That we appreciate Palestinian history the way it is, not the way we think it ought to be. And that's what I tried to do. And I also tried to do some justice for Gaza, because when Gaza is discussed in the media and wrote about, again, it's presented as a crisis. People are dying, you know, the people are starving, and there's very little by way of historical connections to why people are dying, why are this. And when we do, refer to history, we are very shortsighted in how we cite history.

Speaker 1: I mean, what we hear constantly is statistics. X number of people died, X number of people were injured. And these numbers then become very meaningless in many respects because people get used to hearing just numbers. And it would be nice— and This is being done, I think, to connect those numbers to names, real names and people, because then people don't get so desensitized towards it.

Ramzy Baroud: Exactly. But even more to that, which I fully agree with what you said, but even more to that is that, you know, the issue of numbers is easily countered. I mean, we have our facts and figures and charts and maps and say, this is Palestine, basic information about Palestine, all in 500 words. Over time, we end up reducing the people of Palestine. I mean, the 8 Palestinians who were killed in Gaza recently, they included 3 children, I believe, 3 children. We know very little about those children. And where do they come from? Where do their parents come from? Why are they in Gaza in the first place?

Speaker 7: Hmm.

Ramzy Baroud: There's always that disconnect. And then we talk about 8, and then someone else would say, well, but Palestinians fired rockets Rockets first. Rockets first. And we say, no, no, no, if you refer to the BBC report on such and such date, it shows that it was Israel. But, and then we kind of enter into this kind of useless, you know, argument and counterarguments by presenting a history that is devoid of humanity, devoid of people, devoid of the fact that no, it wasn't about the number of those who were killed, but about why they were killed, why they were there. That's why I think it is so essential that we bring back Palestinian— and I agree that it has been done, but hasn't been done enough. It really hasn't.

Speaker 1: Well, it started, at least recognizing a list of names so that we can put a name to a number, just to make it more human.

Speaker 7: Right.

Speaker 1: And I think it's quite right, and that should be done. So, in a way, your book brings that alive, because it makes the narrative very personal. It, it points towards a man and his life story. And very often we, we don't read about that in the media. We're in too much of a hurry to, to find out the Not really, actually. And all— and despite this, it takes place. Because look at the Israeli story.

Ramzy Baroud: Look at the perception of the Israeli narrative. First of all, we know that the Israeli narrative is centered in an Israeli-centric history. No, the Israeli story doesn't start in Cape Town. It doesn't start in Nicaragua. It actually starts in the Holocaust, in Germany, and starts in Palestine itself. So they have a very centralised and clear historical narrative, and ours is not. And I think it's essential that it becomes that way, not just simply that we recognise that there are people behind the numbers. But if you, if you can't see the relevance of Palestinians to this history, over time what's going to happen is then Palestinians are going to find themselves in this situation where they are told what to do. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: Yes.

Ramzy Baroud: I mean, like the whole debate, for example, over one state, two states, violence, nonviolence. It's all these reductionist type of discussions that are taking place everywhere. And I assure you that when I was a student at Birzeit University, we haven't really sat there kind of thinking, what is the solution? One state, two states? It was completely irrelevant to us. And that's why I'm saying that we've got to really Try to appreciate the Palestinian narrative, and by that appreciation, we will start imagining the conflict from a Palestinian point of view. And if we imagine the narrative from a Palestinian point of view, our attitude and our relationship to that narrative would eventually change. And I think it ought to.

Speaker 1: And I think it is changing. And I think that in the past, the Arabic historians The historical narrative was very oral, wasn't it?

Speaker 8: Right.

Speaker 1: And now it's, it's being written and it's being documented, so people will have archives and references to go back to. And I think that that's going to help make the argument, because we then have records and statistics on which to draw on. And we're, we're in the throes of all these revolutions now, and why are all these revolutions happening now? What's the impact of them going to be?

Ramzy Baroud: Well, you know, there have been 3, 3 competing forces, I would say, in the region that we call the Middle East. One that is the Western interventions, American imperialism, neocolonialism, the self-seeking, you know, bunch that comes from the outside. And the other is the Arab elites and Arab rulers and regimes. And they've been battling it out. Those who concede Are called moderates. So that's how you achieve the title, you know, that of moderation in Arab politics. It has nothing to do with the people. They are completely discounted, are out of the equation altogether. And those who fail the American test are the radicals. And the people have been just absent from all of this. They are really just used, you know, One extremely silly manifestation of that is when Americans were kind of realizing that they are losing, you know, public opinion. So they decided, well, maybe we can win hearts and minds in Iraq. So you would see pictures in the New York Times and news reports on CBS of American soldiers handing candy to little kids in Fallujah and Basra, which is absolutely ridiculous that this idea—

Speaker 1: It's patronizing.

Ramzy Baroud: It's very patronizing. But again, It makes you think of how little they actually considered and how, you know, how much they— how little they thought of the people. And what is happening right now is that this dimension of this triangle, the neocolonialists, the regimes, and the people, is now being changed.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Ramzy Baroud: The people are kind of becoming a much more relevant factor in this equation. I'm not saying that they have They have changed the rules entirely, but they are in their way of changing the rules. And at the end of the day, and I think this is really the unwritten chapter in my book, that those who did what they did in Egypt and Tunisia and achieving that in Yemen are the Zarifas and the Mohammads of these countries anyway. You know, and they are the people, they are the ones who have been, you know, discounted for all these years and they are taking charge. of charting their own destiny. And I think if it's an indication of anything, is that eventually the Muhammads and the Zarifas of Palestine will be able to articulate their own demands and will be able to assert themselves as a very important factor in all of this.

Speaker 1: Well, let's just hope so. And I can't help but feel that The current state of affairs in Palestine and Israel is really— is the end of the Oslo Agreement. I mean, we've— I think that chapter has been—

Ramzy Baroud: I think it has. I think it has. I think we live through it.

Speaker 1: Sorry?

Speaker 9: It never started.

Speaker 1: It never started, but everybody referred to it. That's what I meant.

Ramzy Baroud: So even as a frame of reference, it's no longer even valid anymore. And I think we do live in the post-Oslo years right now. And I think this is why the panic, you know, in the Palestinian Authority and all of this, because they fear that the new reality and the new calculations is not going to include them anymore. And I do think that there is, you know, a serious change that is underway in Palestine. And I think it is essential that we insist that this change Is not an elitist type of change. We don't want to see changes of faces. And people ask me, you know, wherever you go there's always that question, you know, the Palestinian Gandhi. And, you know, where is the Palestinian Gandhi? Or do you think Marwan Barghouti will— and, you know, there's this obsession with finding a man, a man actually, who will make it all right. Again, very patronizing. And this time I think it has to be done the other way around.

Speaker 8: Right.

Ramzy Baroud: It has to be the people, and then the man would emerge after that, you know.

Speaker 1: Thank you. And I think also that the discourse regarding statehood, the debate between should it be a single state, should it be a one state, is almost irrelevant now because what we're wanting to see is Perhaps simple implementation of human rights.

Ramzy Baroud: That's right.

Speaker 1: And that the discourse regarding statehood really is, is now closed and becoming irrelevant.

Speaker 7: That's right.

Speaker 1: Because neither way there seems to be a door open, or if it is open, then it's marred by a series of obstacles.

Ramzy Baroud: Right. You know, I think, you know, there's—

Speaker 1: And they're unsurmountable, these obstacles.

Ramzy Baroud: Right. I think that the new— there's this kind of new realization that 2 states are not practical. So out of desperation, we are saying, well, we have nothing but one state. And in my— I mean, when did the whole 2-state debate even start? It wasn't a new UN Resolution 181. You know, to divide the land because they were not really speaking of a Palestinian state even then. This was an invention in the late '60s and after the war, after the 1967 war. It was Henry Kissinger who brought all this nonsense to us of peace process this and two solutions that. That was really not part of the political agenda of the Palestinian people. Effectively, there is already a one state.

Speaker 10: Yes.

Ramzy Baroud: I mean, there are people living in, you know, a million and a half Palestinians.

Speaker 1: Exactly. You know, the Palestinians within Israel are—

Ramzy Baroud: But they are divided by walls and checkpoints. And a draconian and racist agenda that ensures that these divisions, whether legal divisions or physical divisions, remain in place.

Speaker 1: But legal they certainly are, because, you know, the Knesset has passed no less than 23 laws that discriminate against Palestinians living inside Israel.

Speaker 4: That's right.

Speaker 1: And these laws keep on being updated and revised and tightened. Tightened to the degree now where, you know, Arabic is not permitted to be spoken in Israel.

Ramzy Baroud: But that tells you something, though. It tells you the level of panic that they are reaching in Israel. And indeed there is this rush. You know, I think it's, you know, out of desperation in a way. I think if anybody is growing desperate, it's them, not us. Because here we are, 63 years later, we are still speaking of Palestine and Palestinians and Nakba and all of this. I mean, why the sense of urgency? How did we manage to maintain this sense of urgency of an issue that Israel wished to be sorted out and finished and over with a long time ago without the people in the way? You know, was it Moshe Dayan or Ben-Gurion? I can't remember. I can't remember who's the one who assumed that the refugees will melt into the poor masses of the earth. Moshe Dayan. But they haven't. They're still there. We're still talking about them. So they built walls and add more and more checkpoints. They would attack Gaza and they would use this type of weapons. And then they think, well, maybe it wasn't effective enough. Let's try something even more lethal and more lethal and more lethal. Yet nothing is happening. The Palestinians are still there. They're still holding on their rights and they are still fighting for the same demands that they've had many years ago.

Speaker 5: And now?

Ramzy Baroud: Israel is trying to find these creative ways to co-opt Palestinians. You have no right to remember the Nakba. How ridiculous is that? And it's even more ridiculous that if we forgot, and we would never do, now we would remember even more because of what they are expecting us to do.

Speaker 1: So really it's a moment for us to change the discourse brought about by the boycott, divestment, and sanctions. —to maybe restore Palestinian rights. And through that way, maybe we can see a breakthrough. And that's perhaps where we should be focusing our attentions.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: And for full human rights for all Palestinians, for us to redefine the discussion, and for the Palestinians, as you said, people upwards, to take— not to wait for any government to take action, but to say, okay, negotiations haven't worked, politics hasn't worked, let's try a different tactic. Go for boycott, divestment, and sanctions, and take action ourselves. And with the call of the, you know, civil call from the Palestinians to To use BDS as a way of reaching a new solution. And I think it's being felt by Israel. We know that in various publications recently that Israel is seen as one of the least popular Yes. And I think I read in a holiday destination, the Israelis around the world aren't making themselves particularly—

Ramzy Baroud: And even more important than this, because sometimes they're not popular because of who they are, because of the, you know, like, you know, I was in this conference in Korea recently, and I found that we have all these friends in Central America, and some of them were friends of ours just because Israeli tourists behave really badly in their country. But I think there's a more important poll actually that was done by the Middle East Monitor and the findings were published recently.

Speaker 8: Yes.

Ramzy Baroud: That doesn't talk about how popular or not Israel is, but rather that the people's relationships to this conflict, the people's relationships to this conflict, there is greater sympathy with Palestine than with Israel. And that is essential. It is essential because that is the time, this is the time where civil society becomes effective. We have the critical mass in European societies. The question is, how do we channel that support to achieve political ends? And I think not only do we need to redefine the Palestinian narrative within the discourse, I think we need to redefine our relationship as a to that discourse as a whole. What I mean by that is, you know, I don't think we should be consumed too much with one state, two states, violence, nonviolence. That is an issue that Palestinians will sort out on their own because they have their own dynamics. And these dynamics are happening independently from whatever the activists in Norway decide or don't. But what we really need to do— I was in South Africa recently and I spoke To a group of lovely people in Johannesburg. And then I was told, but Ramzy, you are telling us all of this, and yet Palestinians are not united, and that makes it really difficult for us. Which was really ironic considering that we all know about the history of division of the anti-apartheid struggle. Who doesn't know that? We don't talk about it now because it's not very popular to address such— but in fact, there are divisions in any revolutions, in any time, in any place.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Ramzy Baroud: So Palestinians are really not the exception. But then I discovered when I was there that there were still some military contracts that were signed between the apartheid government of South Africa and Israel that were never really canceled. And those military contracts included explosive bullets that are being shipped to Israel. And you know what explosive bullets do.

Speaker 7: Yes.

Ramzy Baroud: And then I asked that gentleman, I said, did you know all of this? He said no. So here I'm thinking, like, my gosh, here's this, you know, brother in Johannesburg so worried about Hamas and Fatah reconciling or not, and he doesn't realize that he's actually funding— I mean, as a taxpayer, he's paying for all of this. So I'm thinking, we have got to reposition ourselves as well.

Speaker 10: Exactly.

Ramzy Baroud: No, the battle for us is not Jerusalem. It's not Ramallah. It's not Gaza. These are important. It should inspire our battle. But our battle is London and Leeds and Toronto and Johannesburg. We need to ensure that we're not going to liberate Palestine. The Palestinians will. But we want to morally divest from Israel. And I think this is even more important than the practical divestment, but the moral divestment. I want to have nothing to do with you. Whatever happens happens in this conflict, but I'm not going to fund your war machinery. I am not going to contribute to your vile acts in Palestine. So I think this is where it really all starts.

Speaker 1: I think, you know, I mean, we hear about celebrations of the recognition of the state of Israel around the world. And the question that I ask myself is, you know, what are they exactly recognizing? What are they recognizing? Are they recognizing bannistans? Are they recognizing ghettos? So I think that when you try— when you then begin to celebrate the recognition of the state of Palestine, you are accepting the status quo. And the status quo is the occupation.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Speaker 1: So I think we need to move our thinking forward. And, and, and say, okay, well, no, we're not going to celebrate, because what are we celebrating? And we, we really do want to bring it back to, you know, the, the youth demands and protests calling for unity. Maybe they have every right to do that. But, but to, to say to ourselves, We want more than simply recognizing of the state of Palestine. We want it to happen on— in reality. We want to try and answer the calls of the civil call for BDS by the Palestinians.

Ramzy Baroud: And I think the call for BDS by the Palestinians, I think it was July 8th, 2005.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Ramzy Baroud: I think it was really essential, because Because again, the Palestinian civil society has been absent in all of this. And Palestine was viewed in, you know, as factions and all of this. And it was a time where the Palestinian civil society stepped up to that challenge and presented a challenge to Western civil societies and civil societies everywhere that, you know, this is what we need from you right now if you want to stand in solidarity with us. And I think this call is— I think what is fundamental at this point, that we build knowledge and awareness of what's going on in Palestine if that call is to be effective. And I, you know, I must say that I am, you know, I was in Olympia, Washington, 3 weeks ago. Then I went to Canada and I spoke there. We raised money for the Canadian boat to Gaza. Then in Scotland and back here in England. And you spoke at the University of California, Berkeley. You see this happening everywhere. People are no longer talking about slogans. People are not talking about, you know, these kind of endless debates on who started what. And they are talking about boycotting this, you know, water cooler company or this, you know, are talking about real things. We are getting involved. We are being part of this. And we are contributing. And I think it's essential that we continue. The momentum of direct involvement.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, unity has to be a unified strategy and a set of outcomes, not just a sort of a sham marriage between, if you like, the Israelis and Fatah and Hamas, I think.

Ramzy Baroud: Right. So this is really bigger than Hamas and Fatah. I mean—

Speaker 8: Exactly.

Ramzy Baroud: If Hamas and Fatah decided to unify around the lines that are not accepted by the Palestinian people, is that okay? Of course not. So it's really not the unity per se, it's around what platform are they uniting and is this platform consistent with the rights of the Palestinian people. I think that's even more important.

Speaker 1: Yes, I agree. Okay, well, I think people are— I can feel that people are sort of itching to ask questions now and I'd like to maybe open the floor and take I'm going to take a few questions, if I may, and just try and get Ramzy to answer some of those questions. So I'll take 2 or 3 at a time, and then we'll see how the time goes.

Speaker 9: I'll go from the other side. Maybe you— I'm sure I'm not allowed to. My name is Jafar Amiri.

Speaker 1: Could you spell it?

Speaker 9: Sure. Jafar Amiri. I'm a Palestinian. I'm 60. I wrote you a couple of times, and what you said now is all commendable, warm and loving towards your father. The Palestinian people never, ever come into play. They're ignored. Nobody has ever taken the trouble for a referendum to ask the Palestinians, Some of them are here, some of them in America, some of them in Australia. The refugee camps— what is it you want? We have been ignored since the inception of Israel. We have ignored— we have been ignored by the Arabs. We have been ignored by the West. We have been ignored by the Fatah and the Hamas and Mujahideen al-Shaabi and all the political movements That have mushroomed over the last 63 years, I have never been asked, what do you want? And it's about time that somebody, maybe like you— and that's why I wrote to you, because you have— you are at the helm of the Palestine Chronicle. And I wrote to your counterpart, Mr. Ali Abunayme, who has the WWN, the father. And he kindly answered, and I saw it last night. Yes. What we want, the Palestinians, is to be asked. Our right nobody can deny. Maybe they sweep it under the carpet. Maybe they play politics with it. What I want as a Palestinian, and I have lived like your father even more, and I was jailed by all the Arabs in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia, in Kuwait, and my wife was pregnant with our firstborn. when I was invited officially by the government of Morocco and arrested at the airport because my sobriquet is Abu Nidal, the name of my son. It's about time, please, ask the Palestinians what they want.

Ramzy Baroud: Exactly. I agree with you. But at the same time, nobody asked the Egyptians what they want either. They kind of, they decided to answer that question on their own at Tahrir Square. I think it's only the Palestinians who kind of can, who are capable of pushing themselves into the heart of that equation. I don't think Mahmoud Abbas is going to really care about what Palestinians want or not. What he really cares is to—

Speaker 7: He doesn't care.

Ramzy Baroud: What's that? I don't care about him either. Exactly.

Speaker 8: And most Palestinians don't.

Speaker 9: Most Palestinians don't care about him either. None of these Abbas represents me. Exactly.

Ramzy Baroud: But what are we going to do about that? That's what I'm saying. That's what I've been saying. Exactly. That's what we've been saying.

Speaker 1: That's exactly what we've been saying.

Speaker 9: What you— what I'd like you, as a journalist who has a platform, to do— Is ask the question, what do you want? Because by comparing—

Ramzy Baroud: No, no, we know what we want, Mr. Jaffar. We know exactly what we want.

Speaker 9: My friend, it hasn't been canvassed. It hasn't been collected. We are part of a collective. We are looked upon by the entire universe not as a nation. We are looked upon as part of 2 collectives: one, the Arab collective, To the Muslim ummah. And I, for one, as a Palestinian Arab and as a Muslim, I resign from both. I am only a Palestinian. I want people to talk to me as a Palestinian, address me as a Palestinian, and listen to my grievances. I am not a victim. I refuse to be a victim. I am a landowner. I have a history twice the age of the West. And if I do not take the helm now, nobody will do it for me.

Speaker 7: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I mean, you're very passionate about it, and I think that many of us Palestinians feel the same way. We do not want to be victims.

Ramzy Baroud: But we have to take charge. That is not enough. I've got to say something. We've got to take charge. Nobody is going to ask you, Mr. Jaffar, what you want. If you don't answer that question on your own, nobody would do it. I think it's essential that we force ourselves into the heart of this equation. I think enough is enough. I think by saying that nobody cares about where we are located in all of this, it's kind of in a way perpetuating the same old question. But we are at a stage, we have this historical opportunity that we step forward and say that this is what we want, this is how we are situated in this. And I think that's the point. Narrative, and this is a Palestinian collective that is self-assured and capable of articulating these demands. And that's exactly what we've been talking about, and that's exactly what my book is about. So I think it's really important that we do so. I'm not saying that on a sentimental level. I think we do need a strategy and we need to discuss this. But I think mentally we have to part with the past. We have to have new thinking and entirely entirely different take on how we've been conducting this.

Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. The gentleman at the back with the blue shirt wanted to ask a question, and then Fahim. Thank you. Can you just introduce yourself to us, please?

Speaker 5: Yes. My name is Ali Fudiga. I'm from Jerusalem. I'm a Palestinian, of course. I agree with my brother, Is that— I'm sorry, is that right? Yes. Jafar.

Speaker 10: Jafar.

Speaker 5: Jafar, even better. I agree 100% with my brother Jafar. This is, you know, the problem with the Palestinians is that, I believe, in my humble opinion, is that we've been too nice and too polite and To, you know, in our attitude towards people, that even when we see rubbish, we, we call it diamonds, you know. It is— we've got to get rid of— who is Mahmoud Abbas? This is a lot of bullshit. This is, this is my friend. They, they, you know, they are the invention of, you know, Kissinger and the rest of the You know, Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and Hosni Mubarak and the rest of the, how shall I say, rotten camp. So it's just, you know, why do we accept? Why do you say president? President of what? You know, he's not even president of his own shoes, you know. Yes, you know, we all of us know Mahmoud Abbas, you know, he cannot get, you know, not even a sergeant, you know, an honest worker can stop him from, you know, going to the oil, you know what I mean? So it's just all a fantasy and we've got to get rid of it. And it is people like you, the Palestine Chronicle, Palestine Solidarity Campaign, because you are also too polite to Maybe Middle East Monitor and the rest, we should just get out, get out of this shell, you know.

Speaker 1: But I think we are. I think that's what we're saying.

Speaker 5: More forcefully, more forcefully. That's what I mean.

Speaker 1: Say it more forcefully when I ask you to sit down so I can take the next question. Thank you so much.

Speaker 5: Thank you, Ramzy.

Ramzy Baroud: Okay, right here.

Speaker 4: Thanks, Ramzy, for the Thank you so much for the talk. It's been really interesting. My name's Fahim. I live in London. I'm a lawyer. One brief question. You said that, you know, rather than the people waiting for a man to, you know, waiting for a man to emerge to lead them, that really the people should rise up and then, you know, someone will emerge from amongst them. But don't you think it would be better if it was a woman rather than a man?

Speaker 1: You have a man and a woman on stage, Fahim.

Speaker 4: The reason I asked that is like something The other thing that's in my mind is you had the whole Lula period in Brazil, this amazing, incredible change of the last 5 years of Brazil coming from what was 5 or 10 years ago this huge country that people had virtually no respect for, that it was just a very poor place and this is what it is. But within a short space of time, they've built something very powerful. And now Dilma Rousseff is the new president, and she's going to be leading that nation. I'm sure she's going to do a great job.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 4: And me personally, I'd like to see someone like maybe Leila Khaled, when she calms down a little bit from where she is and can get properly involved in politics. I don't think it would be better to have a woman than a man to lead?

Ramzy Baroud: There's no yes or no to this question. It's the Palestinian people who would have to determine. And I don't think they would be determining that based on gender or anything else. It would be based on the credibility of not even that person, of the— you know, one thing, you know, I'm still living the euphoria of the Egyptian And one thing that I enjoyed about it is that days into the revolution, Al Jazeera reporters or news anchors are asking, you know, those who are calling from the Tahrir Square, and they are saying, so who are your leaderships? Who are representing you? And then you would have a lady named Lubna saying, I think it's Mohamed El-Sayed, one of them. No, who is Mohamed El-Sayed? Who is Lubna? And that was so beautiful about it. Is that you had the collective uprising and then the names were, you know, followed. It wasn't the other way around. So I don't think we should concern ourselves at all. But as far as whether these people are available, and again, you know, the question of where is your Palestinian Gandhi, I mean, every single day we have so many Gandhis and Guevaras and people holding on, you know, on the trees that are being uprooted in Qalqilya and Tul Karem and Jenin and in Gaza. I mean, These are the people. They are there. And they are more than capable of leading the new period in Palestine. But again, I think we need to move beyond complaining about the bad reality and just, you know, get moving. And I think we need to stop blaming others for our problems as well.

Speaker 1: And we did celebrate women in the Intifada last week very well. And for the purposes of I think I'd like to ask a woman the next question. So, the lady in the orange top.

Ramzy Baroud: Yes, thank you. I'm Sana Ramini.

Speaker 10: I'm a Palestinian by marriage. Ramzy, you said, which I think is very important, you said where we should be now fighting the battles is in London and Leeds and around Europe and America. And one of the huge forces a change that has been very, very recent and nobody seems to have mentioned, and has brought in a great many people whom I know to suddenly understand the history of Palestine. There's a series of television programs called The Promise, which was done by a most wonderful writer-director— I'm a journalist— writer-director called Peter Koskis.

Speaker 7: Peter Koskis.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 10: Who I believe is Jewish, and who made a very excellent remark in a discussion about making these programs, which he didn't make because he said, I wanted— I had a message. I just wanted to tell the true story. And he used— 11 years it took to get the research together, and every single scene, every word, every nuance in that series Can be backed by sources. It's, it's a very, very exciting thing. Now, the greatest propaganda machine is of course Hollywood, which is of course run by the Jews. Um, but obviously I haven't read your book. We've had little bits of it. It seems to have a lovely narrative in it. Surely there, there is now a time that Channel 4 put this series of programs on. It's 8 hours of television. Yes. All of it seemed to be by the Israelis as totally anti-Israel and totally anti-Jewish, which in fact it isn't. It's simply accurate. But it got on. It got on peak-time television in this country. It's sold in Australia. They're now selling it all over the place. And this is where, you know, there are other areas, not just politics, not just talking, not just writing important Thank you. But in the popular media.

Speaker 8: Can I just say in support of that, I've worked in television for a long time, Palestinian, born and bred outside Palestine unfortunately. I've worked a lot in television, had many successful programs on some major Arabic language networks, and I'm still waiting to see some Palestinian body go into a proper network where the talent and the writers and the presenters and the reporters and the creators can come together and create something. Let's not forget how valuable Al Jazeera was in the revolutions that did take place. This is very important and it's really very late. And I see a lot of Palestinian money put into all sorts of projects, but the media is always the last thing to think about. I remember that I got a scholarship to go and study media, which I did in the States. And when I came back to the Arab world and people said to me, well done, what have you done? And I said, I did media, of course, because it's very important. They laughed at me. They just said, what a waste of time. I'm still waiting, not that I can still go and come here anymore, but I'm still waiting to understand, can you explain to us why this is not an important issue to us, but it's What was your experience?

Ramzy Baroud: It's really hard to answer this question. I think part of it is that we kind of reached the point where we felt, you know, like the whole idea that Hollywood is controlled by the Jews. I mean, we kind of reached this kind of— we have been polarized as far as our relationship to the media. Someone else controls it, don't even try, don't even bother. And that's why I think, again, I need to bring the ball back into our court. I think We need, you know, I'm not going to tell you about the Palestine Chronicle and our tiny, tiny, tiny little budget, but the fact that we reach about 25,000 visitors every single day. If I worried too much about how much money I need to get this started, I would have never got started. And I think some of the most effective work that has been done has been done by media people, by journalists, by activists, by Movie makers who had nothing by way of budget. So I really don't think that money is in itself. I think the will. I mean, there has got to be the will and the willingness to get started on this. And, you know, I've heard this argument over the money and where— well, of course, I mean, if I have a million dollars, I'm a millionaire. And if I'm a millionaire, I have— I'm self-seeking and I have my own interests. And it's essential that we kind of—

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Ramzy Baroud: Escape that argument and think of ways to communicate the message in as effective of a way as possible considering the resources we have. Of course, I would like to see more and more money invested in this, but I'm not going to wait until someone comes with the millions and invests them. I'm going to do things on my own.

Speaker 7: That's right.

Ramzy Baroud: And I know that you are already doing things on your own, and so many people over here are doing the same and getting the message across. That's what we should be focusing on.

Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm going to take 3 more questions. Please introduce yourself and keep your questions brief. So, Dima, Yusuf, and— okay, 4 more questions. Harry and the young lady by the speakers at the back. Okay.

Speaker 2: I'm Osama Hamdan, and as you know, probably, my film Gaza London My question was inspired by your book. Sorry, sorry. My name is Dima Hamdan. My question is regarding— you've been talking about the revolutions that we've seen in the Arab world recently. It's the normal people, the Muhammads and the Zarifas, who have started these things, and it's not the leaderships. Rather than talking about what ought to happen, in the short term, what do you think the scenario would be in Palestine, because we've seen people coming out and demonstrating, asking for an end to division. But the Palestinians are fighting against a divided Palestinian leadership. They're fighting against the occupation. And in fact, they're fighting against the Israeli people in a way, because it is the people in Israel, you know, unless they move and they decide that it's time to make peace, they're also a third barrier in the path. I Palestinian think that's a very good point. struggle. So if we are to witness a kind of popular uprising, what do you think the outcome in the short term would be?

Ramzy Baroud: Okay, 2 things. First, thank you, Dima, and thank you for that beautiful film you did. I really appreciate it. 2 things. First, I think, you know, I think we have to be aware of the fact that yes, people went to the streets and made broad change in Egypt and Tunisia, but they are being watched and there are every attempt at quashing the revolutions. And I think the US involvement in Libya was very much that. I really don't think it was about the oil. They were getting the oil anyway. It was about taking the initiative from the Arab people and turning what is purely a people's rebellion into something entirely different. So there— and there is a level of demoralization going on. And I hope it doesn't continue forever. However, that said, in 1982, the Palestinian leadership— the Lebanon War happened and the Palestinian— and Sabra and Shatila, and the Palestinian leadership was sent to Tunisia, and Palestinian fighters in Lebanon were everywhere from Yemen to Somalia to Sudan. So, and we passed through a period of several years In which the leadership wasn't just divided politically, it was divided physically as well. That division then was even worse than the division that we are experiencing right now in Palestine, but worse. When Arabs began meeting and holding their Arab League summits, they were speak— they were saying very little about Palestine. Even the lip service they used to pay to Palestine, they were not paying it anymore. And then the Israeli occupation became even more brutal. wicked and more violent and more violent. And then 4 men from my village, from Beit Daraz, were ran over by an Israeli truck driver in Gaza and they were killed. And then I remember that day because I was a student at Khaled Ibn Walid High School. And our high school is right, is right on the highway. That's where the settlers would pass and the Israeli soldiers. And we just didn't know what to do. So we basically went down to the highway and we just blocked it. And the Israeli soldiers came and the settlers and they began shooting. And then the opposite refugee camp, Burayj, took to the streets too when a couple of our students were killed. And then Maghazi and then Khan Yunis and then Gaza and then Rafah and then Nablus and Ramallah. And then Palestinians within Palestine in '48. And then suddenly there was a revolution. And that revolution, even though it was presented as kids with stones, what it— the underpinnings of that revolution, it was a stance against division. It was a stance. It was bringing back the Palestinian factor into the equation. It actually revived the Palestinian leadership in Tunisia that was long neglected. It restated the importance of Palestine within the Arab conscience. It once more revived the struggle. And it took a few students from Khaled ibn Walid High School in Nusaywat to achieve all of this. And I really think, I mean, you cannot urge a revolution. You cannot call on people. I mean, if, you know, Those who understand how Palestinian uprisings happen, and I've heard Palestinian leaders in Damascus and elsewhere calling on the Palestinian people to carry out a 3rd uprising. I'm sorry, it doesn't happen that way. It never happened that way. And it didn't happen that way in Egypt either. But I think it's the Palestinian people in Palestine who will eventually restate their importance to this struggle. And believe me, once that happens, all of these old illusions and Oslos and this— Right. Ugly hierarchy that was created, the corruptions within our societies that was espoused by the PA, the Israeli occupation, the settlements project, all of this within days would change. And we have seen that change happening in 18 days in Egypt. Now we are talking about a brand new reality. And it's America that's repositioning itself from that reality for the first time in many years. America has been leading change, playing around with people's lives and geography and politics. And suddenly it's not that way anymore. We have done this before. In '36 we've done it. In '87 we've done it. In 2000 we've done it. And we will do it again. I'm sure of it.

Speaker 1: OK. OK.

Speaker 6: A fellow journalist came from Gaza 2 weeks ago visiting here. Thank you very much, Ramzi. It's an honor meeting you today here. I think we as Palestinians, you know, we should be proud to be Palestinians. We should educate ourselves before, you know, and we should actually make our voices heard. We shouldn't expect people to ask us what we need. We should tell the people who we are, what we need, what is the problem, how they can help. My question is that, of course, there's 6 There are so many Palestinian refugees, you know, scattered all over the world. And of course, in light of the failure of the so-called peace talks, how come we still, after like 6 decades, we still did not see any leadership like emerging, any somebody emerging from the outside of Palestine? I mean, why the Palestinians outside the Palestinian territories do not exert enough effort? I mean, are they like lacking the measures or the means or the money? And also, don't you think that we should seize or, you know, make use of the power of the people outside Palestine, you know, to do something?

Ramzy Baroud: Absolutely. That's very essential, you said. I mean, I think it's a bit overdue for self-criticism here. I mean, we've got to recognize our failures. And I haven't brought this up because I was you know, kind of pushing for an entirely different subject, the discussion, which is the importance of repositioning the Palestinian narrative because of what it actually means, you know, to take Palestine out of this, you know, victimization complex. Yes, we are, we have been victimized, but we are not victims. We refuse to be victims. And that's exactly what Israel wants us to do. But what you said, it's very important. And I think the ills and ailments that afflicted our society in Palestine also afflicted it in diaspora. And I, you know, I really wanted to keep these— keep this upbeat and optimistic, but I can tell you many examples of that divisions that I saw wherever I go. I mean, Mr. Jaffar here spoke about how Palestine is hijacked into, you know, this collective and that collective, and in the midst of it, Palestine itself is being lost. Yeah. And I found myself in these overlapping collectives. And as a speaker, you kind of find yourself trying to renegotiate your relationship to these collectives as opposed to them finding their way to where you stand. So it's really been really hard. I mean, one day you are speaking at Ahmad Deedat's mosque in Durban and you have to use certain language and certain— and the other time you are, you know, you are Speaking at a communist conference in Detroit. And you find yourself— and again, it's essential to create associations to— it's a successful strategy, but you can't fall entirely into that sets of associations. You kind of lose the plot altogether. And I think Palestinians in diaspora are a reflection really of Palestinians at home. I mean, we have our Hamas and Fatahs and Jabhat al-Sha'abiyas and— Right. And many of the conferences and many of the events are divided based on that as well. And that's unfortunate. And I think we can, as, you know, civil society, interfere in this and try, you know, kind of take that narrative back and say we are not going to fall into that, you know, factionalism that has deprived Palestine from its Palestinian identity and has been hijacked into religious, ideological, or any other faction. It's important that we do so. But the good news is that it is indeed happening. It really is happening. And those of you who saw Ali Abunayme yesterday, he was pushing for a similar agenda as well. And I see this happening everywhere. And I think we are encouraged. Like, you know, when you do something, you're a brilliant reporter, and I've seen you on Press TV many times. And you've done— you guys, Youssef Alhelou has done such a wonderful job communicating a message.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Ramzy Baroud: Beautiful message coming out of Gaza. So thank you for that, Yusuf. But you know what? You will find lots of young Palestinians who look at Yusuf al-Helu and say, "I would like to be like this." And if he has a platform, exactly. But but when I write a book, you know, I am I I you know I am looking at at Rada Karmi's book, and she looked at someone else's book, and suddenly we have a new new narratives, and and eventually we will have the discourse. We just cannot dis. We've got to keep on pushing and we have to be clear about our demands and objectives. And really, I don't like complaining. I really complain very little. And I expect myself to do things because honestly complaining is— kind of deprives you from the ability. It's disempowering.

Speaker 2: Of course.

Ramzy Baroud: In fact, you know one term I don't use, Youssef, in America? The powerful Zionist lobby. I don't use the— Powerful. I mean, we had— we've kind of de-alienated this discourse in a way that we kind of stand there and we say, we just need cement to build our houses in Gaza. I mean, that's all that we expect that we can say. We are victims and they are all-powerful. We need to challenge that. We need to challenge their narratives and claim our own.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. We have run out of time, but if the questions are very quick, then I'll let them through. So, Harry.

Ramzy Baroud: I think there's a lady over there. There's just 2 more, and I promise. Hi, I'm Harry, a documentary filmmaker and activist, and my question's quick. You're talking about sort of the info war, basically, Basically, the Palestinian narrative and pushing it in the West. London was mentioned, and you talk about sort of media and this sort of thing. In short, what is the sort of campaign that we should be pushing? Is it one central on international justice, or what? I think there are 2 narratives. One is, how does this conflict relate to you as someone who is living in London, and then someone who is living in the UK? And then as someone who is living in Europe. So you need to localise. We as Palestinians, we need to internationalise our narrative. And we want to reach a point where I don't have to borrow from anybody's history. And I would say Nakba and you understand exactly what that's all about. I say Naksa and you would immediately understand what— So we need to internationalise a conflict that has been localised by Oslo and the Palestinian Authority and divided us Politically and socially and then territorially into areas A's and B's and C's. And with all these divisions, we also became divided from within psychologically. We became divided. We need to change that. But then you, you cannot internationalize, you have to localize it because it matters to you because that grocery store across the street is selling Israeli products. And you see what I mean? So you kind of need to reach it from the other way around.

Speaker 8: Right.

Ramzy Baroud: So I hope that this addressed part of your question.

Speaker 1: Thank you. Okay, last question.

Speaker 7: Hi, just— it's going to be quick, but first, I really like Ramzy, and I have to say that it was through Ramzy that I first went to Palestine a few years ago, and I had the pleasure of meeting Mumia, who I think you haven't seen in 17 years now. And only after reading your book, after meeting both of you, have I really seen, well, really how it was inevitable that Your parents for going to bring up 2 incredibly kind, eloquent, and indefatigable children. So thank you.

Speaker 5: Thank you.

Speaker 7: The question is mainly about— to do with Gaza, about how I think over the years we've always seen how whatever happens, or over several occasions when something happens in the West Bank, it's always Gaza that pays attention— pays the price, sorry. Whether it was the lynching of 2 soldiers, let's say October 2000 during the Intifada, Gaza would get the most attention. And now with the Egyptian revolution and Egypt still having the same army that's been paid for by America, and we see that there hasn't really been any change with the border so much, do you think that it's going to be a good thing for the people of Gaza, what's happening now? Or do you think that the Egyptians will be so preoccupied with their problems and the same army that has always done this to the people of Gaza will continue doing so?

Ramzy Baroud: Yes, it will bring good things. To Gaza. And again, simply because it's the ordinary people of Egypt who led that revolution. If this was a classical revolution in the old sense of, you know, a couple of guys with rifles overthrowing some other guys with rifles and taking their place, I would have said, well, you know, it depends on the guy, the new guys with the rifles. Maybe they are better guys with rifles. But in the case of Egypt, it's different, because you and I know very well what the Egyptian people stand for. You and I know very well what the Iraqi people stand for. When I go to Egypt, when I go to Iraq, and they know you are a Palestinian, it's like you descended from heaven. I mean, there's this thing to the point that I also feel like there's a level of, you know, objectifying Palestinians in a way, but in a positive way. So we know what Egyptians feel about Gaza and about the Palestinian people. If this remains, if this revolution Remains true to the demands and to the wishes and to the spirit of the Egyptian people, and it will, eventually a difference is going to be made. But I have to also warn you that the hyenas are also circulating this revolution and they are trying to, you know, the counterrevolution is happening. And the counterrevolution is not just happening by, you know, the old followers of the regime. It's also happening by the outside. I mean, David Cameron, for example, was the first A foreign leader to visit Cairo, and he was so shameless that he takes 6 bosses of the biggest arms— I mean, and you know how he describes that? He says— now it totally escaped me. He describes this as instilling the demands of democracy in Egypt. The arms dealers are there to ensure— To protect democracy.

Speaker 8: That's right.

Ramzy Baroud: That the basis of democracy are actually solid. How ridiculous. I mean, the fact that they supplied Libya with weapons, then their weapons bombed the other weapons that they supplied Libya with. And so they are at work as well. Egypt in particular is extremely important to them. The IMF immediately offered Egypt this huge package of billions of dollars. You know, just take it. How much money do you want? They are trying to entangle Egypt because they know that there's a moment of truth that is coming. And that is with whether the government likes it or not, whether the army likes it or not, when the Egyptian people are going to come and exact another price. And they say, listen, this in Gaza is not going to continue. So this is what's happening right now. The Egyptian people are solidifying and they are articulating their own relevance to this political discourse. And on the other hand, there are many Others who are trying their best to weaken the Egyptian position. But I have every hope to believe— I mean, at this point today, for example, there was the mass protest for journalists demanding names and faces to be fired. I mean, they are going that specific in their demands. They are aware. They have unearthed their inner power as a people. And if that continues, I don't see a reason of why the siege would continue.

Speaker 8: Thank you.