PLO 2nd-in-command, Dr.George Habash says he "regrets very much the split of the PLO"

Speaker 1: We're starting, Doctor, yeah. I'm sorry about this delay. OK, fine. Dr Hamish, could you tell me how serious you consider the division within the PLO to be now?

George Habash: Of course, I have to confess that it is rather serious. But in spite of this, we are still raising the slogan for one united PLO. There will be many difficulties, serious difficulties, but we have to overcome it. There is no other way but to overcome because it's so dangerous that our people will be split while fighting against Zionism and against Israel.

Speaker 1: How much damage do you think that the holding of the PNC and Arafat's move has done to the PLO?

George Habash: It was very, very serious, very serious, because it has a very clear political content. It means that Arafat is deciding, or rather deciding, to have a close alliance with Camp David regime and Reagan's regime in the Jordan. And as you know, comrade, neither Camp David nor Reagan fulfill what our people really want. And that is why it is a serious thing. Also, from an organizational point of view, as you know, that the PLO is rather a wide front that contain within it, within its frame, all classes, all organizations, all national personalities, the wide-frame what is happening in Amman, you cannot call it that it is the PNC. It is Arafat's conference rather than the conference of all the groups that represent the Palestinian people. Besides this, we can say that it is really illegal from the point of view of the internal regulations of the PNC.

Speaker 1: Do you really believe, though, that Arafat is putting himself in the American camp, as you put it, because that would surely make him a traitor in your eyes?

George Habash: To a great extent, yes. In an indirect manner. not in a direct manner because America is still refusing him. He is putting himself in the American way through King Hussein and through Hosni Mubarak. This is very clear to our people. And this is one of the main causes for what is happening in the PLO.

Speaker 1: What sort of future do you see for Arafat and his PLO if he goes ahead with the American way, as you put it?

George Habash: If he continues in this way, I think the Palestinian people will not in any way accept... Arafat to continue as the head of the PLO. And I think we will have a united PLO without Arafat and without his line.

Speaker 1: Do you not think perhaps that the Palestinian people want peace?

George Habash: A just peace? Of course. But any peace Israeli peace? No. I think our Palestinian people are ready to continue fighting for one more hundred years to have their own right in self-determination and establishing their state. Otherwise, there will be no peace.

Speaker 1: When you talk of fighting, Are you still committed to what you have called revolutionary violence, what some in the West and we in the West call terrorism? No, not terrorism.

George Habash: Armed struggle. Armed struggle to have our national rights. And the regulations of the United Nations give us the right to use Such armed struggle in order to fulfill our national aims. You are mistaken if you regard our fighting as terrorism. This is the great fault of American administration.

Speaker 1: Does the split within the PLO make the use of violence by some who oppose Arafat inevitable now? Does the split within the PLO, does it mean that some will now turn back to violence, revolutionary violence, terrorism, call it what you will?

George Habash: Against Israel? If you mean increased armed struggle, certainly. And we are planning to increase our armed struggle against the Israeli forces in the West Bank, the Israeli forces in Gaza, against Israel in general. But if you mean violence against Palestinian groups, no, we are against this and we want to prevent it.

Speaker 1: Doctor, do you ever see peace with Israel? Because clearly there are some within the PLO today who do.

George Habash: We see in the very distant future peace... in Palestine where all sects, Jews, Arabs, will live in peace. It's very difficult to have peace with Zionism because Zionism, as it proved itself on the ground here to our people, we cannot live with it as the European people were not able to live with fascism and with Nazism. It's very difficult. We have seen it. We cannot live with Zionism. Zionism is fascism, exactly.

Speaker 1: But do you ever see in your heart Do you ever see compromise, peace with Israel? I'm still not clear on that, whether you actually believe it's possible.

George Habash: Israel is the embodiment of Zionism till the present moment. Till the present moment, it is the embodiment of Zionism. We are ready to have peace if we can get rid... of Zionism, Zionistic ideology, Zionistic plans.

Speaker 1: How do you explain Arafat's thinking today? I mean, you know him terribly well. You've been together over a number of years. How do you explain what he's doing and where you think he's going?

George Habash: Arafat gives... very much importance to tactics when we were out of Beirut Arafat thought that the whole area fell in the hands of the United States and that is why he has to arrange himself according to this formula he does not give great importance to the Palestinian masses, to the Palestinian organizations who want to know where we are going. This is a great fault of Arafat and through his contacts with Fahd and all the reactionary rulers, Arab rulers, he is more affected by what they say, more than he's affected by the Palestinian masses.

Speaker 1: Do you think that he's betrayed? Do you think that he's betrayed the Palestinians in any way?

George Habash: Let us not talk about betrayal. Let us talk about the political line he is following... at the present moment, which is very wrong and so dangerous and which will not fulfill our national aims. I am afraid that Arafat, after four or five years, will discover that he lost the faith of the palestinian masses without getting anything from his coalition if i'm not if i'm using the right word the coalition with uh king hussein and husni mubarak one final question and a very personal question looking looking back dr habash

Speaker 1: Do you ever question the revolutionary violence of the past? I mean, you said that you're planning to increase attacks now against Israel. Does that mean you would consider returning to the days of the early 70s where the armed struggle and revolutionary violence, what we again call terrorism, for want of a better phrase, could be used again as a weapon? Do you ever see that?

George Habash: Please, please make it... clear that there is a very clear difference between what you call terrorism and what we call armed struggle to have to fulfill our national aims. Allow me to say that I do not like your mixing between armed struggle and terrorism. If you mean armed struggle, we have to increase it. We are planning to increase it. Terrorism is something else.

Speaker 1: But do you see a return to attacks against Israeli targets? You say that you're planning to increase attacks. Are we going to return to the days of attacks against Israeli targets?

George Habash: This is our job to return to strike Israeli targets in the West Bank, in Gaza, in Palestine. We regard it as a right for us. The United Nations regulations give the conquered people the full right to struggle against the conquerors in all means, including armed struggle. What do you think it achieves? You said this is the final question. In spite of this, I will answer this question as a final question. What is the question now?

Speaker 1: What do you think that it achieves? What do you think it will achieve, a tax against Israel?

George Habash: It achieves very much. Because in the very long run, the Israeli people will recognise that without... giving the Palestinian people their rights, there will be no peace. And I don't think that the Jews in Palestine are ready to continue losing their sons day after day, as is happening at the present moment in South Lebanon.

Speaker 1: Dr. Hambach, thank you very much. I've got one simple thing.