Nelson Mandela - on Palestine, Libya, and Cuba (1990)

Ted Koppel: Mr. Mandela, you're participating in what is a very old and honorable American tradition, a town meeting. And rather than waste any time with my questions, if they don't ask you good ones, I promise I will try to.

Speaker 2: Those of us who share your struggle for human rights and against apartheid have been somewhat disappointed by the models of human rights that you have held up since being released in jail. You've met over the last six months three times with Yasser Arafat. Are these your models of leaders of human rights? And if so, would you want a Gaddafi or an Arafat or a Castro to be a future president of South Africa?

Nelson Mandela: One of the mistakes which some political analysts make is to think that their enemies should be our enemies. Our attitude towards any country is determined by the attitude of that country to our struggle. Colonel Gaddafi, Fidel Castro, support our struggle to the hilt. They do not support it only in rhetoric. They are placing resources at our disposal for us to win this one. That is the position.

Ted Koppel: Mr. Mandela, as I mentioned to you before the program, we also have some distinguished guests sitting behind us. One of whom, Mr. Henry Sigmund, together with two other Jewish leaders, came to Geneva to visit with you precisely because they were so concerned not only by the kind of thing that you just said before the break with regard to Yasser Arafat, with regard to Libya's Colonel Gaddafi, but also because of the support that you seemed at different times to give to the PLO. I would like to ask Mr. Sigmund to stand now for a moment and pose whatever question he would like directly to you. Mr. Sigmund?

Henry Sigmund: I think I would be dishonest if I did not express profound disappointment with the answer that Mr. Mandela gave to the previous question. because it suggests a certain degree of amorality.

Nelson Mandela: As far as Yasser Arafat is concerned, I explained to Mr. Sidney that we identify with the PLO because, just like ourselves, they are fighting for the right of self-determination.

Ted Koppel: We have ripped through the first part of this broadcast extraordinarily quickly. There are still a number of issues that we have to take up with Mr. Mandela, not the least of them being sanctions by the United States against South Africa. We will continue with that in the Nightline segment of this broadcast. Just a quick break now. We'll be back. And we are back once again at the City College of New York with Nelson Mandela. And Mr. Mandela, we have just heard a number of the things that you said in our hour between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock this evening, some controversial things, not the kinds of things necessarily that a very political man says. If you were very political, you might have been more concerned about not alienating some people in this country who have it within their hands, within their power, either to continue sanctions against South Africa or to raise those sanctions, to lift them. Why were you not a little more political? Perhaps we're too accustomed to politicians in this country.

Nelson Mandela: I do not understand what you mean. Perhaps if you clarify what you're referring to, I may be in a position to comment.

Ted Koppel: What I'm saying is that in this country, for example, there has been for many years a close alliance between the Jewish population and the black population in the civil rights struggle. there is likely to be a rather negative reaction to some of the things that you have said. That reaction could very well cause people to call up their congressmen, their senators, and say, go ahead, lift the sanctions. Why not? After all, President De Klerk is doing a great deal. against apartheid. Only today, in fact, is number two man, Heret Viljoen, said that the government perceives itself in South Africa as being part of the anti-apartheid struggle.

Nelson Mandela: As far as the Jewish question to begin with, I have had discussions at my own initiative with prominent Jewish leaders to straighten out this affair. Amongst the people I saw was Mrs. Helen Sussman, who has been an MP in our country for more than 30 years. There was Mr. Mazins, who has been a judge in Lesotho, Botswana, and the old rotation. There was the chief rabbi of Johannesburg. There was Professor Katz from the University of Witwatersrand and an eminent community leader in South Africa. We discussed this question and all misunderstanding was cleared, the question of Yasser Arafat and the PLO. I have also discussed the question with the Jewish leaders in the USA and very top people like Mr. Signe. We reached an agreement on this question and we saw eye to eye Now, I don't know where your concern arises. The Jewish leaders themselves are able to determine their own affairs. Nobody else is entitled to say that the Jewish leaders are going to be concerned about your stand. Because I... Because I have had the discussions with them, and those discussions will reach consensus. But there are matters, of course, which we did not agree. But the position which we take as the ANC, I thought we were able to explain it in such a way that it removed the concern of the Jewish community.

Ted Koppel: Let's broaden it up.

Nelson Mandela: I am still prepared to do that, even in this talk. If the Jewish leader have any doubts about our stand, I am prepared to address them and to allay their concern, because they are a very important community, both in South Africa and, of course, in the States. And I'm prepared to iron out any differences that might exist. But they must know what our stand is. Arafat is a comrade in arm and retreat in a sack. We have many Jews, members of the Jewish community in our struggle, and they have occupied very top positions. But that does not mean to say that the enemies of Israel are our enemies. We refuse to take that position. You can call it being political or a moral question, but for anybody who changes his principles depending on whom he is dealing, that is not a man who can lead a nation. Apparently, Mr. Corporal, you have not listened to my argument. If you have done so, then you have not been serious in examining it. I have replied to one of our friends here that I have refused to be drawn into the differences that exist between various communities inside the USA. You have not commented that I am going to offend anybody by refusing to involve myself in the internal affairs of the USA. Why are you so keen that I should involve myself in the internal affairs of Cuba and Libya? No. I expect you to be consistent.