Nelson Mandela - MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour (1990)

Jim Lehrer: Mr. Mandela, thank you very much for joining us.

Nelson Mandela: It's a pleasure. It comes to very few people to stand at the podium of the United Nations and not only be applauded by the whole standing audience, but cheered. What did you feel at that moment?

Jim Lehrer: Well, I felt this was a great compliment to the ANC in particular, and to the struggle of the people of South Africa against racial oppression. It is an indication of the extent to which our struggle has made an impact throughout the world, and in particular to the United Nations organization, and I was happy about that.

Nelson Mandela: You told the United Nations it would be better if you'd come to celebrate a victory. Is this a good time to be so long away from home for you?

Jim Lehrer: Well, the struggle against racial oppression is worldwide. It's not only confined to South Africa. The developments, the significant political developments that are taking place today are the result of the cumulative factors of internal mass struggle and international pressure. And therefore it is quite correct for me, as part of my struggle against apartheid at home, to address and thank those peoples who have supported us all along.

Nelson Mandela: What I meant was that some people feel that there may be a very narrow window of opportunity to achieve the kind of constitutional change you want by negotiation in South Africa with extremists in the white community proliferating, some extremism in the black community, all opposing the idea of negotiations. Do you feel that your time may be limited in which you can achieve some kind of negotiated settlement?

Jim Lehrer: We do not regard that we are working within any time limits.

Nelson Mandela: You don't?

Jim Lehrer: No, we don't. These factions which are opposing the peace process in the country have to be expected by those who have been following political events in our country. In fact, they were expected by the government itself, and they must have examined the situation very carefully. knowing that there would be a backlash because this is a monster of which they themselves, the government, have created. And therefore, this reaction on the part of the right wing is something that we expected. But we are not going to be paralyzed by that and not do our work inside and outside the country. I have gone out because we have assessed the situation very carefully and felt that it is time for us when there is talk of re-examining sanctions to go out and point out that that would be a catastrophic step. And the vote by the United Nations, by the European Parliament, which voted by 177 votes to 47, is a vindication of our visit to Europe and to America to appeal to the various countries to maintain sanctions.

Nelson Mandela: Apart from opposing sanctions, and I'll come back to that in a moment, opposing the relaxation of sanctions, I'll come back to that in a moment, you're also using this trip to raise the prestige and the financial resources of the African National Congress. How much do you need that? I mean, do you not have the resources and the prestige enough to carry on your struggle without this kind of international campaign?

Jim Lehrer: How can we... carry on the programs that we have without a financial assistance from the international community. The resources of the country are monopolized by the white minority. We don't have resources. How would we be expected to rehabilitate the political exiles which are coming back, who want jobs, who want accommodation, who want educational facilities for their children? How do we rebuild the ANC, which has been banned for 30 years? How do we mobilize the entire country for peace if we don't have the resources? We cannot generate those resources from inside the country. And it's but natural for us to approach the international community for assistance in this regard.

Nelson Mandela: Come back to sanctions now. Who is the chief target of your anxiety? Which country are you most worried might want to relax sanctions?

Jim Lehrer: We don't want to deal with the situation from that angle. We are appealing to all countries, whoever they are, not to relax sanctions.

Nelson Mandela: Are you afraid Margaret Thatcher will want to relax sanctions?

Jim Lehrer: If I have any fears, I will express them directly to her. And I do not consider it improper that I should be discussing here what I propose to discuss with the British Premier.

Nelson Mandela: Right. Well, you are also going to see President Bush, of course, on this trip. Do you have some anxiety that Mr. Bush wants to relax sanctions?

Jim Lehrer: No, I have no such anxieties. But he may have views which, if they conflict with ours, then we'll be able to thresh the matter out.

Nelson Mandela: What would happen if some sanctions were relaxed? You've said that you believe Mr. de Klerk is negotiating with integrity and that he has the same aim of a multiracial society that you do. Are you afraid that if sanctions were relaxed that he would slow down, that he would reverse himself?

Jim Lehrer: There is that possibility. Not from the point of view of a man who can't keep his word. I am convinced that he will keep his word. But he faces problems and he just has to make a choice. The continued application of sanctions puts an obligation on all of us to try and find a solution as quickly as possible. We are just as anxious as the government for our economy to be saved from being shattered by sanctions. We are keen that we should have a chance as soon as possible of putting our economy on a sound basis and therefore we are keen to reach a solution as quickly as possible. And the danger about relaxing sanctions is that you will actually undermine the rate at which we want to reach a settlement.

Nelson Mandela: Because Mr. de Klerk would feel that for political reasons he could go slower. Is that your...?

Jim Lehrer: Well, that is a possibility. because he faces problems.

Nelson Mandela: The City newspaper, a black newspaper with a big circulation in Johannesburg, this week came out for lifting of some sanctions. And they said, the writer said they didn't want blacks to inherit a wrecked economy, a wasteland. Now that's an argument that opponents of sanctions, that's the phrase that opponents of sanctions have used a lot in the West. Does it disturb you that some prestigious black opinion now inside South Africa is calling for a relaxation?

Jim Lehrer: We are a democratic organization movement and we are tolerant of opposing views. People are entitled to express their views. I do not know which newspaper this is, but if one talks about the city press, generally speaking, they support our struggle. And if on any particular point we don't see eye to eye, we will discuss that with them. And we have a powerful case, and we think we are in a position to convince anybody, as I have convinced you.

Nelson Mandela: You've said that for the West to try and help de Klerk, to make some gesture to help him. For instance, Mr. Bush has talked about his desire to make some gesture to reward de Klerk for the steps that he has made. And I've heard your answer that you don't think he's... due for a reward because he's just undoing what the white community shouldn't have done in the first place. But are you worried about de Klerk being weakened? Are you worried about an erosion of support for de Klerk, that that could catch up with the negotiating process, that he could lose whatever mandate or moral authority he has to negotiate with you?

Jim Lehrer: Not if he carries out our recommendation to him. We have said to him he has another four years in terms of the election laws of the country. Within that four years, he can bring about fundamental and irreversible changes in the political scenario of the country. That fundamental change would be to extend the vote to every South African. If he did that, he would take out the political power from a white minority and place it squarely in the hands of the masses of the people. Once he has done that, the right wing would be absolutely powerless. And he would be in an invincible position.

Nelson Mandela: Are you saying that if black voters were enfranchised across the political spectrum, that enough of them would vote for Mr. de Klerk, a white man, after all that he's represented in their past?

Jim Lehrer: No, I am not talking of voting for him as a person. But the cause for which he stands, that is a negotiated settlement on the basis of a non-racial constitution, that cause would triumph and he would benefit because he would be part of that process.

Nelson Mandela: How close are you to removing now the obstacles to a full negotiation? For instance, the release of political prisoners and the return of exiles?

Jim Lehrer: There's no problem about that. We're going to agree with that.

Nelson Mandela: It's going to be very quick now.

Jim Lehrer: In our next meeting, I have no doubt to say we'll clear that completely.

Nelson Mandela: Okay. You've said that the next step is to decide and how to choose the delegates who will represent blacks in the real negotiations and that they should be democratically elected. Are you going to look to the government to set up such an election machinery, or are you going to set one up within the ANC?

Jim Lehrer: It's a joint affair. We are discussing with the government already And the structures that we are going to put up for the purpose of negotiating on a new constitution is now a joint responsibility between the ANC and the government. And it may well be that other organizations will be involved. We have not taken up the stand, the position that we are the only organization that is entitled to negotiate. That has never been our stand. but we insist on democratic elections in order to identify the people who are going to negotiate.

Nelson Mandela: So in other words, just to what would amount to a constitutional Congress, to use the American phrase, the election to that would become the first democratic election across racial lines in South Africa.

Jim Lehrer: Well, I don't want to use any labels. All that I'm saying is that people who are going to be entrusted with the important work of drawing a new constitution for South Africa, acceptable to all population groups, must be undertaken by people who have been properly mandated through non-racial elections.

Nelson Mandela: You said to the, oh, I just want to ask one more question on the timetable. If the question of the release of political prisoners and the return of exiles can be settled at your next meeting, What do you see as a probable timetable for electing delegates and sitting down, the earliest one could sit down and start having serious negotiations?

Jim Lehrer: I would be reluctant to say to talk in terms of timetables. It is sufficient to say that in the first meeting that we've had with the government, the element of urgency was evident on both sides. That is why we appointed a working group composed of equal members of the ANC and the government and instructed them to report to us before the 21st of May. They have done so and indicated to us the ways and means in which these obstacles could be removed. we are meeting then in order to take specific decisions as to how to remove the obstacles and we don't expect you know any problems about that there is of course the question of removing repressive legislation because it's not only just the state of emergency there is a battery of laws which give the government sweeping powers of suppressing political activity from their opponents. We have also insisted that these laws should be repealed. But of course, the question of the repeal of the laws is not something that can be done overnight. And we will look into that. And we have no doubt that in a future meeting of parliament, some of these laws will be withdrawn.

Nelson Mandela: You said today in your United Nations speech it was strange that the victims of a crime against humanity were being told what procedures were proper to rid themselves of that crime. What did you mean by that?

Jim Lehrer: Well, we are told, for example, that we must lift sanctions. We must call off the armed struggle. We are now talking to the government we must give them sufficient space to maneuver with regard to the right wing. Now, we consider this approach to be totally incorrect because the methods which are used by an oppressor, the methods of political action used by the oppressed are determined by the oppressor. In South Africa, the methods which the people are using to oppose apartheid and racial discrimination are determined by the government. Where the government talks peacefully, wants to solve problems by peaceful means, talks to the oppressed, it would be very difficult for them to turn to violence. But when the government bans political organizations, bans political activities, paralyzes individuals by imposing bans on them, and intensifies oppression, and carries on a brutal suppression of all political activities, what do you expect us to do? We must resort to violence in order to defend ourselves. But many people, especially in the West, seem to be blinded to this reality. that we ought not to have embarked on violence. We ought not to continue with violence when we're negotiating. We know better because we are the people who are responsible for this negotiating process. And we should be telling the world what methods of action should be abandoned and at what time. It is not for the international community. to try to lecture to us as to what methods of action we should use.

Nelson Mandela: You said to Ted Koppel last night A man who changes his principles depending on with whom he is dealing is not a man who can lead a nation. The context was this. What principle are you being asked to change, you, Mr. Mandela, when Americans question your praise for the human rights under Gaddafi and Castro? What is the principle involved there that you're being asked to change? Mr. McNeil.

Jim Lehrer: This is a matter which should not be handled lightly, as many people do. The first country which we approached in the 60s for assistance, when our leaders had to leave the country in order to mobilize the support of the international community, the first country we approached was the United States of America. We could not even succeed to come close to the government And they refused to assist us. But Cuba, the moment we appealed for assistance, they were ready to do so. And they did so. Why would we now listen to the Western world when they say we should have nothing to do with Cuba? It's just unreasonable. No human being acts in that particular fashion. Here is a country that was the first to assist us when the West, which had formidable resources, was actually supporting the government. Now you expect us to change our whole approach and to start condemning Cuba for what is supposed to be happening inside the country. No man of principles could ever do that. And that is what I try to convey to Coppel.

Nelson Mandela: Mr. Mandela, our time is up. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. Thank you.

Jim Lehrer: It has been a pleasure.