Mustafa Barghouti, Jumana Odeh - Myths and Facts of the Second Intifada (2001)

Speaker 1: Most of you know Dr. Barghouti. He is one of our leading Palestinian doctors and politicians. He is the president of the Palestine Medical Relief Committee, which this year received the UN award for medical services to people in the countryside of Palestine. What was the award? World Health Organization, which is a testimony of great importance to his work and his colleagues. Dr. Barghouti is a medical doctor as well as a graduate of the business school of Stanford University and holds an MBA, which makes him powerful in more than one field. Dr. Jumana Odeh, who will take 10 minutes at the beginning to present from direct experience the situation with Palestinian children. She is herself a pediatrician and currently the director of the Palestine Happy Child Center. and also serves at the medical school of Al-Quds University. Her basic field in research focuses on the effects of trauma on children. So without further ado, I will ask Dr. Audi to give her presentation.

Jumana Odeh: Good afternoon. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. And I'll be using some slides. Please, if you can put the light off, please.

Speaker 1: Okay, okay, sure, sure.

Jumana Odeh: Yes. This is Jerusalem. where I was born, and I believe that Jerusalem is a city for each and everyone to practice their religions freely and peacefully. Next slide, please. The second slide will show, I think Dr. Barghouti will talk more about the political issues, but I'll give an example. Here is the map of the West Bank. For a mother with a child who has, I'll give a story that happened that a child, Sundar, she's seven years old. She started having some neurological signs. She lives in the north part of Palestine in Nablus. of the West Bank. And she couldn't be diagnosed in Nablus, so she was referred to Ramallah. In Ramallah, there's the only neuropediatrics clinic. And she was diagnosed to have a tumor, brain tumor. And she was stopped on the checkpoint for five hours from Nablus to Ramallah. Then she was operated in Jerusalem with no parents around her because they were not allowed to go to Jerusalem. So these pockets reflects the reality, or the story I said reflects the reality of what does it mean to have these pockets that we can't move from one place to another. Next slide, please. This exactly reflects what's going on back home, that children are throwing stones, and on the other hand, the confrontation the children's throng stones and the soldiers are shooting on them. The other slide shows a story of a child who at the beginning wasn't involved in the confrontation. He wasn't. He was with other children watching. Then he became involved. Then he was shot. He was shot. So you might ask or wonder, why are there many Palestinian children in the streets or throwing stones? Actually, there are many reasons. One, that 53% of the population in Palestine are under 18. So we have many children, the young population. Two, 100% of those kids were born during the intifada, I mean during the occupation in the last 33 years. Three, there are some studies that showed that those kids, the majority of them were attacked by tear gas or during the first intifada and they were affected by the occupation. Many of them has witnessed their parents being beaten or killed or imprisoned. Some of them themselves were imprisoned. So no wonder children are protesting in the street against occupation.

Speaker 1: Next.

Jumana Odeh: This shows how people, after the shelling, they go from one place to another. This child was coming back from the school. He was shot into his head and killed. Next, please. Yeah, so as you see that the brutality of the occupation is becoming even worse and worse, here the checkpoint... I will tell a story about this checkpoint actually. Last week, I was coming from Jerusalem to Ramallah back home with my two daughters and my husband. My little one, she's 11, and the old 17.

Mustafa Barghouthi: And it took us two and a half hours just to pass this checkpoint.

Jumana Odeh: And my husband was very upset and he was cursing and so on. I decided to switch off and read a book. And out of a sudden, we heard the little one talking to someone. So she was talking to a child. What's your name? Then he told her, Palestine is bad. I don't like Palestine. Apparently, he was a child coming from the state. coming home to Ramallah. And she was saying, no, don't worry. Ramallah is very nice. Palestine is very nice place. Just this is the occupation. Do you know what does it? And the conversation went on and on and on. And then she gave him some chewing gum. And after we finished, after we already passed, oh, congratulations. Bye, Tala. And she was there, bye, Tony, and so on. This, I think, reflects the spirit of the Palestinian people, that those kids were born to live and live in peace and live in dignity in their independent land. These are the obstructions of health staff. Next, quickly, please. Again, obstruction of ambulances and health staff from moving from one place to another. This never happened even during the first intifada. Sometimes the health staff has to remove the barricade to reach. Sometimes the only solution is to move your patient from one ambulance to another ambulance in order to take our patients, I mean, to reach hospitals. Although Israel has signed the Fourth Geneva Convention, yet they shoot the ambulance and so on. This slide shows how many people were injured as they were killed, actually. As you see here, the... 25 years old is the majority and less. Up till now, almost 33% of the people who were killed were children under 18. And the irony in this slide is those kids or youngsters were killed or shot by Israeli soldiers the same age. Next please. I'll show some slides about some drawings of Palestinian children. Some drawings of Palestinian children those days. I'll tell this story. Actually, this child, he's 12 years old here in this picture.

Speaker 1: And here, this was in 94.

Jumana Odeh: And there was no clashes, nothing. It was peace at that time, or peace negotiation. And he was shot to his head from a settler. So he became totally disabled. In this picture, you can see him. Yeah, and I know this child from his brother in the middle, who is now 12 years old. And I'm his physician, so he tells me that I can't believe in peace if each time I look to my brother. Just the drawings. This upside down. How children express themselves in drawings. They draw a Palestinian flag and Israeli flag, and they don't love each other. They don't like each other. And again, this child whose house was shelled, he's drawing himself being killed or at least injured from a tank. He's five years old only. And this drawing is very impressive somehow. A five-year-old girl drew it, and her house was shelled, too. And for five days, she couldn't talk. She came to our center, and the psychologist talked to her. And they were asking, is this rain? said no this is shelling you know for her but she yet she she used nice colors so this is the uh psychologists believe that her trauma is somehow superficial so children as you know i mean as you will notice next slide please children are children when they are relaxed they they draw pokemon and this like all all kids in the world and this year we had uh christmas and uh at the same time this year. So some kids draw this mosque and some other kids draw a Christmas tree. So actually I will conclude with this drawing that no matter what's going on those days, No oppression on earth will continue forever or will last forever. And we believe that our children are supposed to live a normal, happy life like any children on the globe. And we try our best to channel the hatred, the fear, and the pain into something constructive rather than destructive for the future of the whole area. Thank you.

Mustafa Barghouthi: Thank you all for coming today, and thank you, Dr. Sharabi, for inviting us to speak here. I want to start by noting that, first of all, that I think we should have mentioned in the introduction that Dr. Jumana also is a founder and a great contributor to the work of medical relief. So she's part of that achievement. And I want to also thank Dr. Sharabi for not only the good work they're doing here, but also for his continuous, he and his colleagues' continuous attention to what's happening in Palestine. And he has just recently been there, and we had the pleasure and the honor of hosting him in various places. And I personally had with him a very interesting trip in Hebron area in an ambulance to be able to reach and cross all the checkpoints. So, I think what Jumana did was very useful in terms of presenting you with the psychological atmosphere that has prevailed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and how difficult the situation is. And I think what I will concentrate on is to give some sort of a summary about some of the facts on the ground. And then maybe some analysis about the political situation and where we're heading. And also to talk a little bit about what I think should be done to relieve this very difficult situation. And in summary, I want to say that over the last eight months, what we had is unprecedented in terms of the level of aggression that was practiced against the Palestinian people, but at the same time, unprecedented in terms of the amount of myth that was created about the situation here in the United States in particular and all over the world. And the myth was very strong and powerful to the extent that it was based on a very well-prepared propaganda, in my opinion, which presented the situation as if Barak made a very generous offer to Palestinians. And that generous offer would have guaranteed 95% of the occupied territories to become part of the Palestinian state. And then the Palestinians rejected that and initiated an aggression against Israel. And Israel is simply defending itself. This is the myth that was created, and we have to struggle very hard to uncover this myth, although the facts on the ground are very clear. And I think I must explain to you a little bit about Barak's offer, because I found that it's very important that people understand what really was offered to Palestinians. And if you allow me, I'll show you just two slides.

Speaker 1: I hope you want to take the time in putting this on. I will, okay.

Jumana Odeh: Okay.

Mustafa Barghouthi: And a myth was created as if this is a real offer and as if this would guarantee and provide peace. So this is the first myth that was created. The second one is that Israel is under attack. Israel is being attacked by Palestinians and Israel is suffering from this conflict. Now let me give you the hard facts. Jumana, I think, gave a very good description of how human life looks like there. But let me give you the facts. During the last eight months, Not a single Israeli house was demolished or lost. Not a single piece of land was leveled. Not a single Israeli tree was cut. Israel lost 106 people, which I feel very sorry for. I don't want any life to be lost in this conflict, whether it's Israeli or Palestinian. And it had 760 people injured. On the Palestinian side, what we had is 27,000 trees uprooted, mainly olive trees. 12,000 donums leveled in Gaza Strip. 3,200 buildings completely destroyed, of which 1,200 houses are demolished, completely destroyed. The 1,500 families are totally homeless, only during this conflict. Palestinians have lost up to now 532 people. I'm updating the figures every day because they keep increasing. 532 people were killed. 23,000 people were injured. Of those, 2,000 people at least will be permanently disabled, with permanent disability for the rest of their life. 23,500 is 0.7% of the total population of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. 0.7%. To make this clear to you, that means if this had happened here in the United States with the size of population you have in the United States, you would be talking about 45,000 people killed and 2,100,000 people injured over a period of eight months. To refresh your memory, the United States during Vietnam War, which lasted 10 years, and it was a real war with missiles, with guns, with tanks, with everything. During that period of time, the United States lost 52,000 people over a period of 10 years. We're talking here about eight months during which we lost what is equivalent to 45,000 people. So what can you call that? Who is under aggression and who is under pressure? And on top of that, what we are encountering on the ground is a continuation of of a policy by Israel which never stopped, not during the time of negotiations, not during the time of the signing of the Oslo Agreement, and not during the time of this conflict. It's the continuation of settlement activities and appropriation of land. This whole peace process, on the basis of the American approach, was based on the formula of land for peace, right? Land for peace. So land was being negotiated. And during the process of negotiations, Israel did not abstain for a single minute from expanding settlements and appropriating more land. As one friend used this nice metaphor yesterday, and I liked it a lot, he said it's like negotiating about a piece of pizza. You buy a pizza and you are negotiating with another person about dividing this pizza between you and him or her. And while you're negotiating, the other side is eating the pizza. You negotiate, he eats it. You fight, he continues to eat it. And you stop the fight and start negotiating again, and he continues to eat. So each time, with the passage of time, the pizza is not there. And that is exactly what's happening on the ground. That is exactly what's happening to Palestine. They are undermining the very essence of the potential or possibility for peace. And I'm not angry at Sharon as much as I'm angry at a person like Shimon Peres, who is really covering up for the worst possible crimes in this region, and for the worst possible manipulation of the truth that ever existed in this region. And I don't have much time, we have limited time, so I can't tell you everything I want to tell you, but I will try to just take some flashes on certain points, but let me tell you that according to Peace Now, which is an Israeli organization, the most recent report of Israeli Peace Now states that during Sharon's time, Shimon Peres talks about natural growth of settlements, not expanding settlements and not new settlements. We'll take these figures. According to Peace Now, Israeli Peace Now, Israel has created, since Sharon was elected three months ago, they have created 15 new settlements. During the period since Oslo was signed, there were 15 new settlements established. The settlements have increased in size and in population since 1993 by 60%. So, it's clear. The ultimate aim is to appropriate all the land. And now, the third myth I want to tackle is the issue of security. Sharon speaks about the security of Israelis and he speaks about security and he and all Israeli governments, I accused them of confusing the Israeli public because they confused the Israeli public and they managed to spread this myth among the Israelis that they can have peace and they can maintain repackaged occupation and have peace and security at the same time. They are responsible for that mistake and In my opinion, they are now trying to confuse people, confuse the issue of security. When they speak about security, it's not clear whether they talk about the security of Israelis or the security of settlers or the security of Palestinians. It's all mixed up in a way as if security only concerns the Israeli side. What Sharon is trying to do, what Sharon is trying to create, is to convince the Israeli public that the war he is running now against the Palestinians is needed for their security. Now let me tell you the two options.

Speaker 1: One option to resolve this conflict would be... One option would be to have Palestinian state in Israel. The border that the Israeli army...

Mustafa Barghouthi: The borders that the Israeli army will have to control, if a state is established, will be 200 kilometers in length. Now, what Sharon is doing with the Israeli existing plans and the existing situation where the Israeli army is trying to establish security, the length of borders is 3,000 kilometers. Practically, what they are doing is that they are transforming the issue of security from an issue of borders between two separate entities into an issue where every Palestinian person, every Palestinian community, every Palestinian cluster becomes a threat and has to be surrounded by the Israeli army and settlements, of course, and settlers. And that's what Sharon is advocating. He's saying we need settlements. We need to expand settlements as instruments for providing security. What he is trying to present is a situation where every Palestinian has to be surrounded by borders. And every Palestinian cluster is going to be surrounded by borders. And at the moment, the West Bank and Gaza is cut into pieces with 91 Israeli checkpoints. The West Bank and Gaza Strip has become 120 clusters from which people cannot move from one area to the other. I tell you the situation, the place is like clusters of prisons. I'm not exaggerating. People are unable to get out, they're unable to work, they're unable to study, they're unable to have their health services. 70% of the rural population of the West Bank do not have any hospital care. To get to hospitals they have to cross all these checkpoints and I tell you up till now about 10 people have died because they are unable to get to hospitals and they got heart attacks and they were not allowed to get to hospitals. The worst psychological problem now in Palestine at this very moment is the problem with women who are pregnant who are so worried that they will have to give birth at a checkpoint. And this is real, because up till now, at least seven women have given birth at checkpoints. One of them gave birth at a checkpoint, and she was stopped for an hour after she gave birth. So this is the situation. The closure and siege is unprecedented. It's a collective punishment that is practiced against the people. And it was upscaled recently to a level that I can tell you that only 8% of people can manage to get to their work. The rate of unemployment is probably now hitting 60% or 70%. And the GDP has gone down by at least 40%. The GDP per capita in Palestine is now $800 per capita in comparison to $18,000 per capita for Israel. And at the same time, we have an imposed market union where we have to buy things at the same Israeli prices because this is an imposed union. This is a very difficult situation to sustain. It's a very dangerous situation. And in my opinion, What Sharon is aiming at is to destroy the potential for any peaceful resolution of the conflict. In my opinion, what he's trying to do, like he did before, the man is very clear. I don't want to talk about the massacres he participated in before, but I want to talk about his political strategy. In the 80s, his strategy was to disturb the possibility of separation by creating so many settlements and throwing them around all over the West Bank and Gaza Strip so that separation would not be possible physically. Now, in my opinion, what he's trying to do is to destroy the infrastructure of the potential of the establishment of a Palestinian state. The main difference between Barak and Sharon is that Barak tried to compromise the compromise, while Sharon is trying to destroy the possibility for a compromise. And his plan is very clear. You can read it. It's published. It's on the internet. He says, the Jordan Valley is very essential for Israel's security, so it should remain under Israeli control. The green light is very important to Israeli security because Israel is very thin, so it has to be kept under Israeli control. The connection between the Jordan Valley and the green light should be kept open, so we need all these roads. And every settlement is important for the sake of Israel, and not a single settlement could be removed from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Now, with such an approach, What kind of settlement could be achieved? And the most unfortunate thing is that he's still enjoying the support of at least 60 to 70% of the total Israeli public. A most recent fall that was done by Jaffa Center in Israel was very annoying, really, because it said that when people were asked about the siege and closure, 71% almost said they support the closure. 29% said they don't support it. But out of those who did not support it, only 5% said they don't support it because of humanitarian reasons. The rest said they don't support it because it is not effective enough. So that is annoying and that is dangerous because it drives the two people into a situation where a solution cannot be found. And I want to tell you, regardless of what you hear, we as Palestinians have not changed our mind. I think the majority of the Palestinians still are opting for a resolution of the conflict. I hope we are still able to maintain a majority support through a peaceful resolution of the conflict. But what Palestinians want is a solution that can provide them with dignity, with integrity, and that can provide them with a true, viable, sovereign Palestinian state. Without that minimum, there can be no solution. And I know that Israel has a problem, and this problem is unresolvable from the perspective of the Zionist program approach, and they have to deal with that. The most important issue here is that the biggest problem that Israel has is the fact that Palestinians are there and they did not leave their homeland. They are there. They learned from 1948. They will not leave their homeland. And as I said yesterday at the ADC, I know that deep down, if you dig deep down into Sharon's approach, you will discover that his major aim, his real aim that is inherited in his approach is to transfer Palestinians. Because this is the only logical outcome of such an approach. What he fails to see, and I don't think he will be able to see that, is that we as Palestinians sitting there, we are so determined to stay on the ground. We will not leave. We will not leave even if we have to die there because there is no alternative to us but to steadfast and continue our struggle to survive and continue our struggle to have eventually what every other people had the chance to have, which is self-determination and the right of independence and to live freely in our own country. I don't think that Sharon understands how Palestinians think, and I don't think that there is any possibility. Let me tell you, I want to jump to another question because I don't have much time. I don't think there is any potential or any possibility for a resolution with such an Israeli government. The Palestinian Authority accepted Mitchell Report regardless of all its flaws, regardless of the fact that it equated between the two sides. The Palestinian Authority accepted Mitchell Report unconditionally with the hope that this Mitchell Report could be used as an instrument of resolving the conflict or could lead to some kind of initiation of a resolution of the conflict. What we see on the ground is another myth being created. Instead of concentrating on the main issue, which is settlement activities and the need to freeze all settlement activities, and that's what Mitchell Report speaks about, the whole issue becomes now ceasefire. Ceasefire. As if Palestinians are the only ones who are firing. Yesterday, the Israelis shelled a tent in Gaza and killed three women from the same family. We have recorded up to now 35 violations of the so-called ceasefire from the side of Israel. And when they use power, they use tanks, they use planes, there is total disparity, total imbalance in terms of power. And in my opinion, the major flaw, they asked me whether we support ceasefire or not. And I said, we want more than ceasefire. We want a resolution of this conflict. And when you speak about ceasefire, it is sometimes totally misleading because ceasefire represents the situation as if it was a fight between two armies, as if it was a fight between two equal armies. But this is not the reality. The reality is that it is Palestinians who have been under occupation for 34 years and who are resisting and tried everything possible. They tried during the Oslo Process, they tried before Oslo Process, they abstained from any form of struggle, and peace did not come. They waited very long, and settlements continued to expand. So what I believe in is that we should give people hope that there is a possibility for real peace, but this time we should not allow ourselves to be deceived. by concentrating only on the symptoms of the disease rather than treating the causes of the disease. We cannot afford, as Palestinians, as human beings, as people who believe in peace and justice, we cannot afford another round Another round of avoidance of the cause and of the problem, avoidance of the real issues that have led to this situation. And the real issues are as they were always before. It's Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which if it continues for one year more, it will become the longest military occupation in history. The second major issue, the second major cause is settlements and continuation of settlement activities and the oppression of the people. These are the causes of the problem and without dealing with the causes of the problem, I believe there can be no progress and there can be no development and there can be no peace in this region. I think we all have to work very hard, we all have to explain what's going on on the ground and we need a lot of attention and work here in the United States because The attention of the media, the way things are described about the situation here, is to a large extent misleading, and this is most unfortunate. And I want to invite you, if you are interested, to help us. We as civil society organizations in Palestine have decided to take an initiative, a new initiative, called the Palestine Monitor. which is an activity on behalf of 86 civil society organizations, and the Palestine Monitor is trying to give the right facts, the precise, concise information about the reality of the situation, and also tries to give an analysis of what's going on, and tries to build solidarity networks with the Palestinian people. And if you are interested in getting information, please contact us. You can communicate with us. The website is called palestinemonitor.org. And if you need to talk to us, you can send us an email at hdip.org. I would be very glad to answer any of your questions, and I will stop here. Thank you. I believe that the most powerful and best approach for Palestinians is to keep the Intifada as a popular mass uprising against the Israeli occupation and to try to sustain the utmost possible nature, the utmost possible level of civilian nature of this intifada. And I want to use your question to say something that I didn't say. We have to identify what is the intifada, what is it about. And I know that in the American media, it could have been presented in a way that creates some negative connotation, but The Intifada is very simple. It's the resumption of the Palestinian struggle against Israeli military occupation. It's as simple as that. So this is what the Intifada is about. And I think that militarization of the Intifada and militarization of the conflict does not serve our interests. I believe what Sharon did, and actually Barak started with that, Barak started with the upscale of the situation to make it look like a military confrontation. They first tried, because they were very worried about the images that were left from the first intifada, where Palestinian civilians were encountering the Israeli army. So he wanted to upscale it into a status of warfare. And then gradually Sharon went even further to make it look like a war between two armies. This is not in our interest, and I believe that the more we can keep the Intifada as a civil uprising, the better for us. But believe me, it's not easy in the way the Israeli army encounters us. I think you might want to make a note of it.

Jumana Odeh: I have an article entitled Cry Freedom after the film, the movie of Steve Biko. And it's written by a 14-year-old girl who participated in a demonstration for the first time in her life. And she expressed herself. And I believe this reflects exactly how people, Palestinian people, feel about the intifada or what does it mean for those people. It's here. I can either leave it to email it or you can get maybe hard copies here. Thanks.

Mustafa Barghouthi: Okay. Regarding the bombing, they're using the shells. You are absolutely correct. And this is exactly the type of bomb they used yesterday when they killed these three women. And they admitted that they used it and they apologized. So, but this is not the first time they use certain types of weapons that are forbidden internationally. I have very strong suspicion. I don't want to be, to say what Arafat said, I am sure. I am not sure. But I have very strong suspicion that they have used depleted uranium bombs also in the conflict. And we want to have, we are searching for an international expert with the necessary equipment to come and examine some of the shells we have. I have some of them in my office, although this is not a very wise thing to do, actually. given the suspicion we have. But we need really some people to come and examine these materials. But this is not the only violation. I mean, the whole way of using force. I mean, we don't have time, but we could have shown you slides about, for instance, how they're using .50 caliber bullets against people, against civilians in demonstrations. And one of the reasons why it is very difficult for us to organize nonviolent struggle. I was personally involved in at least 19 demonstrations which were very peaceful. And we tried to make them as peaceful as possible, to the extent that we tried to prevent any young person from throwing a stone. But each time they upscaled the confrontation, they shot at us first sound bombs, then they shot tear gas, then they shot metallic bullets covered with rubber. They called them rubber bullets, but they're metallic. One of my assistants lost his eye in one of these confrontations. Another one had his ear cut. They were trying to, we were just, so it's very peaceful. And then they went up to using high-velocity bullets. And the type of high-velocity bullets they use is these high-velocity M16 bullets or M25 bullets, which have soft nose, has soft nose. And when they hit the body, they shrapnel into pieces, destroying more than one organ. So each case becomes a medical emergency. That's why the people say dum-dum bullets. They're not dum-dum, but they act practically like dum-dum because of the tub. And .50 caliber bullets are even the worst. I had one single case that can represent to you the reality. He was a man, a young man. He wasn't even demonstrating. He was hiding behind a car, and the confrontation was way ahead of us. And while he was standing behind that car, they shot a .50 caliber bullet. It penetrated the car from one side, from the second side. It hit his knee, shattered his knee completely, shattered his hand. And then they brought him to the hospital with another guy who was standing behind him, besides him. He was in very bad condition. I mean, his leg was almost lost. But the guy who was standing beside him had lots of shrapnels in his chest and when we examined him, the shrapnels were the bones from the first guy. So that's the level 99% of all those who were killed up till now were shot in the upper part of the body. I have tapes that show Israeli soldiers shooting at demonstrators and then clapping after one of them falls down. Because they were shooting at certain times to prove their marksmanship. This is not good for Israelis, you know? This is not good for them. It's bad. They're creating violence inside their society. It's bad for them. I don't want them to become like that. And so on and so forth. So it's really, as I said, 99% of people were shot in the upper part of the body. And the more important figure, in my opinion, is that up till now, About 60% of the people who were shot and killed were shot or killed outside the areas of clashes. 60% almost, 56.4% to be precise. Your second question, very quickly. One man, one state.

Speaker 1: Theoretically, this is the best solution.

Mustafa Barghouthi: I think this is the best solution. One democratic state for everybody.

Speaker 1: One man, one vote. One woman, one man, one vote, as a matter of fact.

Mustafa Barghouthi: But that's exactly what Israel doesn't want. We would accept that with pleasure. But that would mean that Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish state. It will become a Jewish Palestinian state. And I believe they will do everything possible to prevent that from happening. And that's why we cannot give up on the... political goal of having a Palestinian independent state. We have to sustain that goal, because politically, if I go to the State Department and tell them we want one man, one vote state, they will not deal with us. I think Europe will not deal with us. I don't know if they will deal with us at all these times, but in general, I think this is the situation, and so we have to stick politically to the right approach, although from a theoretical point of view, I believe it's the correct approach.

Speaker 1: I'm finding difficulty deciding who was first.

Mustafa Barghouthi: Well, luckily, and that gives us a lot of hope, there are still some organizations in Israel that maintain a very good level of dignified approach and a very good human rights approach. And I want to mention one of them at least, which is Physicians for Human Rights. They have been our partners for a long time, and we've dealt and cooperated with them. With these groups, it's not difficult. They know the reality. There is also , there is , there is Women in Black, by the way, which has proven to be the best and most effective organization, in my opinion. But unfortunately, they remain a very small minority. When it comes to the official medical establishment in Israel, we didn't have very big success. Unfortunately, they tend to take very sometimes racist kind of approach. And the best example of that was when we tried a few years ago to have their attention to the fact that some Palestinian prisoners, when they are sick and operated on in hospitals, they kept them in hospitals even when women were giving birth, prisoners. They were kept cuffed in their hospital beds, and we tried to have their support to prevent such practice, and they wouldn't. So there are a number of groups, and they give us a lot of hope that one day we will together overcome this extremism and this racism, and we will eventually find a way to open the road of peace for everybody together.

Speaker 1: Yes, please.

Mustafa Barghouthi: Thank you for your advice. We keep looking for that. We keep trying to be smarter and as much as we could more effective. But you see, you pointed out a very important point, which is that it is truly a fight between a Goliath and a David. But this time it's an Israeli Goliath and a Palestinian David. And the essence of the unfortunate Israeli propaganda is that they constantly try to be the Goliath and the David at the same time. They want to be the victim and the oppressor. They don't have a problem with being an oppressor, by the way.

Speaker 1: That they have no problem with.

Mustafa Barghouthi: They are very powerful. They have these F-16s, the tanks that you pay for, by the way. It's your taxpaying money that is funding all of that, including the shramnels and everything. And they are very happy to have that, and they don't hide this power, but they insist that they are also the victim. And that is the trouble with this conflict. And I believe your comment is most welcome. We keep searching for better ways, for as much as possible nonviolent ways. But also I want to tell you that it is not fair to put all the burden on us.

Speaker 1: There has to be a pressure on the Israeli side.

Mustafa Barghouthi: What we are being asked to do is next to impossible. I don't think that we as human beings are capable of being nice and kind and non-violent and very civil and at the same time survive this terrible annexation and oppression and everything. It's too much. As I told you, it's 0.7% of the total population. The psychological damage is even worse. Nothing in the world could explain to you the feelings I had as a person when six Apache helicopters were circling over Ramallah. And I was standing there. I was on TV ten seconds before the first missile fell, trying to calm people and telling them, we live in a civilized world. There is international community. This is not a jungle. Don't worry, because people were frightened. Ten seconds after the first missile fell down, and with each movement of these Apache helicopters, I was worried. Now they're hitting the site where my brother lives. Now they're going to the site where my daughter and wife live. Now they're going to the site where Jumana lives, for instance, and other friends. The level of psychological fear that was created because of this imbalance of power and this abuse of power is indescribable to you. I cannot describe it. So even when things happen, I don't want to go into that. When Palestinians perish out with strong emotions, you have to understand the amount of pressure that is exercised against us.

Jumana Odeh: I've been living all my life, and I will advise you to read two articles that I wrote. One entitled, they are here, Long Walk to Freedom, and the other one entitled, Tears of All Mothers Are Equally Salty. And I was, as I said, lived all my life in the occupation, under the occupation. And when I started my practice as a medical doctor, I've never been, I mean, abstract from going or coming or because always I used to fight to enter Gaza and come and go. And I'll always show my ID that I'm a medical doctor. Even if they'll stop me for five hours, two hours, three hours, still I succeeded. It never happened except this Christmas when my father-in-law was sick. I have to bring him to the hospital, come back. Almost midnight it was, coming back. And in the checkpoint, I showed all my IDs to prove that I'm a doctor. And I was explaining to a young guy who's my daughter's age, my home is just 20 meters from here. He said, no, you have to take the other route. The other route, which means that I have to go midnight around 10 kilometers more. I tried all my best. It didn't work with him. He said, I don't want to listen. I don't want to hear you. I don't want to talk to you. At the end, I told him, okay, great. I'll put in nice music. At the end, I'll reach my daughters. I'll celebrate Christmas. But this victory that I will feel, you will never ever feel. And I explained to him how dangerous this is for his psyche. So who's smart? To play smart, it's impossible, even if you try to overcome the obstacles, to overcome the psychological trauma that we are going through every day, every minute. I would advise you to come and live for a few hours inside the occupied territories, and you'll see how does it mean to be smart or not. A friend of mine who is a South African journalist who was visiting, she stayed only one week in Palestine, in Gaza and the West Bank and Jerusalem, and she was telling me that what we went through as black Africans during the apartheid regime was a picnic in comparison to what's going on now in the Palestinian territories. Thank you.

Mustafa Barghouthi: Well, I believe you're right, and this is my analysis of Sharon's policy. He doesn't want to have a Palestinian state. He doesn't want to allow even an autonomy, in my opinion. But what strategy we should take, I believe that, I believe, I don't want to go into the internal Palestinian issue now, but I believe one of our major problems is that the Palestinian leadership does not have a strategy. And what we need to create is a clear-cut strategy where we can really approach the issue, considering both the internal issue, what's happening in Israel itself, what's happening with the Arab world, and what's happening at the international level. The strategy has to combine all these four factors at the same time. And I believe that our best strategy is to concentrate on two issues, occupation and settlements. The only issue that could create a difference inside the Israeli society, if I don't want to say a division, or change this coherent support to Sharon inside Israel, is the issue of Israeli settlements. And but besides that, we have to steadfast and we have to survive and we have to continue our struggle. And there is something I want to tell you. I mean, that although it looks terrible and people have suffered so much, one thing that people outside Palestine should know very well is that the Palestinians have never been more determined than now to continue their struggle. I told you. Not only we will not leave, it's more than that. We have gone through so much suffering, and we have no other viable option but to survive and to succeed. And we will succeed. And as I said yesterday in the ADC, we have to prove to the world, regardless of our suffering, we, the prisoners of occupation, should maintain our approach. We should be wiser, kinder, stronger, and never allow the Israeli occupation to kill our humanity. We should maintain our human spirit, and we will overcome. This is something I am sure about.