Miko Peled - Keys to Peace in Palestine - VFP Convention (2015)

Speaker 1: Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny. He has credibility, so when he debunks myths that Jews around the world hold with blind loyalty, people listen. Miko was born in Jerusalem in 1961 into a well-known Zionist family. His grandfather was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence. His father was a young officer in the War of 1948 and a general in the War of 1967. When Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and the Sinai. Miko's unlikely opinions reflect his father's legacy. General Paled was a war hero turned peacemaker. The general clearly stated that contrary to claims made later, the 1967 war was one of choice and not because there was an existential threat to the state of Israel. He then dedicated his life to the achievement of Israeli-Palestinian peace. Pleasure to be here.

Miko Peled: Good morning, everyone. Well, it's a real pleasure and an honor. The honor actually is mine to be here and speak in front of this group of people. I think Veterans for Peace are— I mean, everybody you say, whenever you mention Veterans for Peace, there's a consensus. Great group of people, dedicated, on the right track. So to be here and speak to you on this issue is a privilege and an honor for me.

Speaker 3: Thank you.

Miko Peled: And I'm always encouraged when I come to an event And speak in front of people who really, when you think about it, have no earthly reason to care about this issue other than they are caring people. And I think that's very encouraging, and it's something that you see more and more and more happening in this country, and I think it's a good thing. Now, when I say have no earthly reason, of course, it's a pretty— From a shallow perspective, there's no earthly reason. When you look into it and you think about it some more, you realize that $10 million of our tax money goes to Israel every single day, and that's a lot of money. Did you say $10 million or $10 billion? Yeah. So really, no— well, that tells us 2 things. Number one, nobody can say that they're neutral, that They are like objective on this issue, because $10 million every day of our money goes to Israel. So we're supporting one side whether we know it, whether we agree with it, whether we like it or not. And what's interesting about that, if you listen to international news from mostly non-American news stations and news outlets, then you get some perspective. I heard recently the United States committed to giving $40 million to 3 African countries over 3 years in order to promote peace and understanding and democracy and fight ISIS. $40 million to 3 countries over 3 years. Israel gets $40 million every 4 days, and it's a completely developed country. It doesn't need the money. It's not like a poor developing country. So that gives us some perspective.

Speaker 4: Right.

Miko Peled: So nobody really can say that they're neutral in this country because unless we are actively opposing Israel, unless we're actively engaged in this issue of Palestine, then we're supporting Israel. That's the reality. And, you know, for a lot of people this just goes over their head. You know, foreign aid going here, foreign aid going there, Israel, Palestine, it all sounds so complicated. So what I like to do in my talk and what I'll do this morning is 2 things. Number one, Try to maybe provide some clarity and some context. One of the reasons that people find this issue so confusing is that there's never any context. So suddenly there's rockets flying out of Gaza and Hamas is trying to kill Israelis. You know, suddenly Israel invades this place or that place and there's violence and there's bombing and there's really never any context. It all seems like it's just— It's just happening. Out of, you know, out of thin air. So I'm gonna try to provide some context and, you know, this might be a little bit of a history lesson as well. The other thing that I'm gonna do, like Tariq said, my book is my own personal journey coming from a very patriotic Israeli Zionist family, ending up going around the world and speaking for Palestinian rights. So that's quite a curve.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Miko Peled: That requires some explanation. So I'm gonna go through some of the points in the book and just to kind of explain that. So there is a personal dimension to it. One thing that always interests me is when I hear people say, you know, I visited Israel and I visited Palestine. Or some people say, Something, something, something, Israel and Palestine. So I like to start my presentation with the question, are Israel and Palestine one country or two? Because the impression that you get, unless you are really involved and learn it about, you know, and take the time to learn this issue, is that there are two countries, two states. There's an Israel, there's a Palestine, and they're at war. There's something going on. There's a conflict. They fight each other. For some crazy reason, they can't seem to get along. Peace talks and so forth. And my question is, is it one country or two?

Speaker 4: One.

Miko Peled: You know, I was born and raised there. I lived, you know, half my life there, and I go back and forth all the time. I got family there. If there is this other country called Palestine, Or this other state called Palestine. My question is, where is it? What are its borders? Where is its capital? Who lives there? And of course we hear that there are peace talks, so peace talks mean you've got 2 parties, you've got 2 countries at peace talks, they're trying to, you know— well, if there's peace talks, then is there a Palestinian army? Because where is that army? I've never seen it. And recently over the last year or so, several European countries have recognized the State of Palestine. And I'm looking at the map and I'm traveling around the country and I'm going, so where is the state of Palestine that they recognized? I don't see it. I don't see any sign of a Palestinian state to be recognized. And I think this is part of why there's so much confusion because there's a— this is very confusing. On the one hand you look at it and you realize That it's one country with one government with one army, but it has 2 names. So how can this not be confusing? The reality is that Palestine and Israel are the same place, but there's one state, one government, one army, and that's Israel. And I think the question that begs to be asked is, Why can't they— why isn't there peace? Why can't they get along? Well, this brings up the next question, which is, is peace really the issue here? Is peace really the answer to the conflict? Or perhaps the answer to the conflict is a concerted effort to bring about freedom and equality. Because we don't have 2 states at war. We don't have 2 armies fighting each other. We have a country that has been occupied. We have a regime that's an oppressive regime. We have a government that controls the lives of everyone who lives there. It's the Israeli government, albeit by using different laws. So the laws that Israelis, Jews like me live, are different from the laws that Palestinians live, who— and again, depending on where the Palestinians live, it's a very convoluted kind of a web of laws. And so— peace really is not the issue here. The issue here is human rights. The issue here is justice. And what needs to happen is there needs to be a concerted effort to bring about justice and equality, which eventually will lead to a reality where Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace. So all these peace talks that have been going on for several decades Again, they're adding to the confusion because when you have peace talks there's the impression that you've got 2 countries at war. That is not the reality in Palestine. The reality is that we have a country that has 2 names, 2 nations live there, Israelis and Palestinians, but the life of everyone is governed and run by the state of Israel. And that is the reality. So it's an occupation, it's an oppression.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Miko Peled: It's not a question of war that should be resolved through peace talks. Now, like I said before, the— one of the problems is that there's never any context. This happens, that happens, there's violence here, there's violence there, there's rockets out of Gaza, all these different things are happening, but there's never any context. Now, people always talk about this issue as though it's been going on for thousands of years. Those people over there, they've been killing each other forever. It's intractable. It's not something we can ever in our lifetime expect to be resolved. And I think if we're really honest about wanting to find the roots for this conflict, why there is this conflict in Palestine, I think it's fair to say that we can look to the racism and colonialism that were brought to Palestine Mostly from Europe. In Israel they talk about the Balfour Declaration. You may have heard of the Balfour Declaration. The Balfour Declaration, and they treat it as though it is one of the 10 Commandments. Every city in Jerusalem, every city in Israel has a Balfour Street. You would think that Balfour was one of the prophets. And it's that, I mean, it's that prominent. And you, when you look right down at it, Lord Balfour. Lord, you know, Balfour was the foreign secretary of Great Britain and he gave a note promising that His Majesty's government supports basically the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. None of these men were from Palestine or really had anything to do with Palestine, but between Lord Balfour and this Jewish millionaire by the name of Rothschild, they decided that it was okay to take somebody else's country and give it to the Jews. You know, this was a world where you could do things like that. People who were white and European could take the countries of people who were brown and not European and do as they will. And basically that's what the Balfour Declaration is, one white racist promising another white racist somebody else's country.

Speaker 3: Right.

Miko Peled: Now we move forward several decades and then we have the United Nations decided to partition— deciding To partition Palestine. It's called the Partition of Palestine. Because some people say there was never a Palestine, so how could there be the Partition of Palestine? And that was on November 29th, 1947. And the map of the Partition of Palestine is this. And besides the fact that the boundaries look absurd and there's nothing doable about these boundaries, it's a complete mess. It's a complete mess. There's something else that is troubling about the map, about this idea of the partition. At that time, at the end of 1947, the entire Jewish community in Palestine numbered only about half a million people. The local native Palestinian population was 3 times as many, about 1.5 million people. But the partition plan gives the Jewish community the larger portion of the land.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Miko Peled: And to this day we hear people say, you know, this is all the Palestinians' fault because they rejected the partition plan. How would they— who would not reject a plan like this? I mean, besides the fact that nobody really asked them, but who— how could anybody not reject a plan? Now the entire— the majority of the Jewish community in Palestine at the time were the generation of my grandparents who had immigrated.

Speaker 1: To Palestine.

Miko Peled: To Palestine. And then the generation of my parents who were born there, the first-generation Israelis, if you will. You know, really basically a community of people who just came off the boat. And the United Nations felt that they could give these people the majority or the larger portion of the land. Now, this is very troubling for many, many reasons. Beyond that, Yes. At that point, or from that point on, we have 2 narratives that emerge, almost literally from that moment on in history. We have 2 narratives that are diametrically opposed. We have 2 histories that are diametrically opposed. So they don't differ in nuance. It's not like we can bridge them. When you accept one, you have to reject the other. We have one narrative that talks about heroism, and the revival of the Jewish people. And we have one narrative that talks about occupation and ethnic cleansing. Now go bridge that gap. Now the narrative or the story that I learned as an Israeli and most people learn in America and in the West in general is a story that talks about, like I said, the revival of the Jewish people only several years after the Holocaust. They tried to develop their own state. They were attacked by the Arabs immediately after the partition plan. They were attacked by the Arabs. Thankfully, they were quick on their feet, and they were a little bit smarter and more advanced than these Arabs, so they were able to defeat them and conquer most of the country and establish a homeland for the Jewish people after 2,000 years in the land of Israel. Now, you are— go argue with a story that is so romantic, and it's like another chapter out of the Bible.

Speaker 4: It is.

Miko Peled: You know, it is so powerful, it is so romantic, and it fits in really well with, you know, thinking, you know, Christian thinking and colonial thinking and so forth. It kind of makes— it's a story that why would you refute, why would you argue? The problem is, of course, that like every story, it's got some problems with it. And about 20 or so years ago, several Israeli historians began to look into this history, this version of the history. And Ilan Pappé is probably the, you know, the chief among those, but there are several others. And they found several problems, one of which is that, like I said, at that time there was a rather small Jewish community in Palestine and a rather big local Palestinian community. But by the end of 1947, the Jewish community in Palestine had managed to develop a very strong armed militia, a fighting force. That militia, that fighting force numbered about 40,000 trained armed men. And there was no equivalent on the other side. There never was. There was no real Palestinian militia, real Palestinian armed force. So the question that begs to be asked is then who are these Arabs that attacked the Jews? Because if the story is that the Arabs attacked, then who are they and what did they attack with? Because there was no equivalent on the Palestinian side. We know that several months later, 6, 7 months later, other Arab armies tried to intervene in Palestine. And by the way, they too were defeated quite easily by the Jewish militia, by the Zionist militia. And the conclusion of some of these historians is that actually the entire story is flawed. When the United Nations accepted this partition resolution, it was the Zionists, it was the Jewish militia, Zionist militia that began the assault. And it was an assault that lasted a year or about a year at the end of which hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages were destroyed. Close to a million Palestinians were forced into exile, and almost the entire country was conquered by this Jewish militia, by the Zionist militia. Now there's 2 interesting things about this. Number one, Palestinians have been saying this from the very beginning, but nobody can believe Palestinians because they're Arabs and they're probably liars, so we can't trust them. But when an Israeli historian says this, now people are paying attention. Especially an Israeli historian with German background. The other thing is now this is not a story of heroism anymore. This is more a story of terrorism. It was basically a prolonged terrorist attack by an armed militia against a civilian population with a clear intent of the ethnic cleansing of the land. A completely different story. Now here in America particularly, you know, there's always this desire to bridge the gap, to dialogue, to find— you can't find common ground when the stories are this different. By accepting one, you reject the other. And this is very troubling for a lot of people. It was troubling for me as I was struggling to accept this and understand this as well. Now like I said, a lot of people say that there was no Palestine. Or if there was a Palestine, then really there was nothing there. Or if there was something there, then these were just poor villages and, you know, Bedouins and, you know, there was really nothing. Anything of consequence that was brought to Palestine was brought to Palestine by the Jewish immigration. So I like to show these pictures. This is from an example of one city, one Palestinian city from before 1948. It's the city of Jaffa. It was a city of about 120,000 people with a rich business life, rich political life, trade unions, several newspapers, movie theaters, and so on. Clearly there was someone there. Beautiful boulevards. The Jamal Basheh Theater was a famous theater. The biggest names in the Middle East would come and perform there. And this thriving metropolis in Palestine In the spring of 1948, in 2 weeks it was reduced to about 3,000 people, from 120,000 to about 3,000 people, all concentrated in one neighborhood with barbed wires and Israeli guards surrounding them. Good morning. Good morning, sir. It's all right, thanks for coming. And on the ruins of, pretty much on the ruins of, and almost, and a picture almost from the exact same angle, is the city of Tel Aviv. Now there still is a small— there is still a Jaffa. In fact, Tel Aviv calls itself Tel Aviv-Jaffa, as though there's an extension to the past, some glorious past. And there still is a Palestinian community in Jaffa, very small, neglected, oppressed, subject to constant harassment by the Israeli security forces. And beyond this little history lesson, there's something else that's important to understand. You cannot reduce Palestine to just the West Bank and Gaza. You know, this is not the West Bank or Gaza. This is of course considered Israel. There are Palestinians in Jaffa, which is now called Tel Aviv. There are Palestinians in the Galilee. There are Palestinians in Jerusalem. There are Palestinians in the Negev Desert. There are Palestinians everywhere. You cannot reduce Palestine into these 2 little areas called the West Bank and Gaza. Because Palestinians, regardless of where they live, they are subject to the oppression of the state of Israel, albeit different laws, different groups, different bureaucracies that deal with them. And I think this is something we have to learn to accept. The entire country is Palestine. Palestinians live everywhere. In fact, they make up the majority of the population today. I'll touch on that in just a little bit. Now, another issue that of course is in the news quite a lot, comes and goes, but it's in the news quite a lot, is the issue of Gaza. And it's— there's never any context. There's this place called Gaza, there's these people called Hamas, and then there's these rockets flying out because they want to kill Jews. This is summing it up, is basically the story. So I'd like to touch on Gaza for just a little bit. I'm not going to go through the entire list of stats there, but these are interesting things. Now, the Gaza Strip is not a naturally delineated area. It was delineated by Israel. After the war of 1948, as a result of the ethnic cleansing, they needed a place to herd hundreds of thousands of refugees, Palestinian refugees. The Gaza Strip was created as a place around the city of Gaza to push these refugees into. And to house them. And the attacks on Gaza did not begin in 2008 or last year. They began pretty much as soon as the Gaza Strip was established in the early 1950s. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine went on into the early 1950s. And Palestinians, particularly from the southern part of the country, were pushed into the Gaza Strip.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Miko Peled: So the reason there are refugees in the Gaza Strip is because of what happened in 1948. Now, like I said, Israeli forces began attacking Gaza almost as soon as the Gaza Strip was established, in the early 1950s. In the beginning, the reason that was given was because there were infiltrators. And what were these infiltrators? Something very mean, something very deadly and scary. Some kind of an ISIS or something, an early version of ISIS. They were called infiltrators. And these were mostly Palestinians who either tried to go back to their land to bring food to their families, from time to time of course commit acts of violence against Israel. But basically this was a poor community of refugees. So Israeli forces would go in, Israeli commandos would go in and commit horrific acts of violence against the population. An unarmed, basically poor population of refugees. Then later on they changed the name. They weren't called infiltrators anymore, they were called fedayeen, also something very mysterious and threatening. Then later on the name changed and they were called just terrorists. So we're going through the '50s, the '60s, the '70s, the '80s. Now they are called Hamas. The names change. The technology improves. So whereas in the beginning maybe they only killed dozens, last summer they murdered over 2,000 people in 51 days. So the technology improves. But it's still the same thing. It's the state of Israel attacking an innocent civilian unarmed population. And the question that begs to be asked is why? Why do they keep attacking Gaza?

Speaker 4: Why?

Miko Peled: There has never been, certainly not a serious military threat from Gaza. There's never been an existential threat to Israel from Gaza. Why are they attacking? What is behind this? When we look at the pictures of the tanks, this is from 2009. Countless tanks, thousands, tens of thousands of ground forces, thousands of flyovers that are bombing them from the air. I was there last summer actually during the attack. I was there and I drove down to the border just to— drove around that border of Gaza and at one point in the southern part which is where the ground forces came in, you suddenly see this field of green. And when you come closer, you realize these are tanks. More tanks than you can even imagine. You would think World War III or maybe World War II is back. Rommel is back from World War II. What is going on? Why do they need so many tanks? And this is after thousands of attacks from the air. Millions of bombs that were dropped from the air. They called 40,000 reservists. Who is it in Gaza? Is it the Chinese? Is it the Germans are back? Who is it in Gaza that requires such heavy, heavy, heavy force? And of course, we look at the results. And again, the question that begs to be asked is, why? And I believe that the answer is, while there is no threat, military threat certainly, there is none from Gaza, there never has been. When we look at the Gaza Strip, the threat is to the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Because when we see the refugees, we see the poverty, we see this inhumane reality minutes away Minutes away from Israeli cities where people live like this. Minutes away. There's no clean water. There's no water fit for drinking in the Gaza Strip. Almost 2 million people live there, the vast majority of whom are under 18. 5 minutes away, a 5-minute, 10-minute drive, Israeli cities, you wouldn't dream of not having clean water or electricity or antibiotics if your child has an ear infection. Never mind the bombing.

Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

Miko Peled: When we look at that, it raises doubts as to the legitimacy of the state of Israel. And that is why Gaza must be attacked. Because doing nothing is not an option. You've got almost 2 million people living in the Gaza Strip in insanely inhumane conditions that were imposed on them by Israel. So, You either have to allow them back home and fix this, allow these refugees to go back to their homes, fix the problem, allow aid to come in, rebuild, which Israel won't do of course, or you have to kill them and then blame them for the violence. And that's the choice that Israel has opted for from the very beginning. So these attacks on Gaza are nothing new. These massacres committed by Israeli forces in Gaza are nothing new. It's been going on for almost 7 decades. And what Israel is fighting for, what Israel is killing for, is to maintain the narrative, to maintain that story, because that story, the Israeli version of what happened in 1948, is the legitimacy, is the only legitimacy, if you will, for the state of Israel. There is no other explanation.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Miko Peled: Now, there's a story in my book about my mother. This is a picture of my mother, by the way, when she was young. She's 89 in a few days. She'll be 89 this month. And she was born and raised in Jerusalem. She still lives in Jerusalem.

Speaker 4: This—

Miko Peled: in this picture, of course, she's young and beautiful. And there's a story that she told me throughout my entire life, and I talk about it in the book. And I can't remember when she told it to me the first time, but it has to do with—

Speaker 4: The Holocaust.

Miko Peled: Something that happened or the experience that she had had in 1948. Now she was living in Jerusalem, she was born and raised there, she was living in Jerusalem in a small apartment with her parents, which was no walk in the park. And during 1948 Israeli forces came into Jerusalem, and I'm not talking about the Old City of Jerusalem, I'm talking about the Jerusalem that became a part of Israel, the western side of Jerusalem. And by the way, has anybody here been to Palestine, Israel? Can I see a show of hands? Okay, good, great. So I'm talking about the Jerusalem that later on became Israel, the western side. And there were many neighborhoods there. There were Palestinian neighborhoods. There was a very wealthy and, you know, important Palestinian community there. The Israeli forces came in, took the neighborhood, pushed out the population. And the homes of these neighborhoods are beautiful Palestinian homes.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Miko Peled: Very distinct Jerusalemite Palestinian homes. And they're— most of them are still there. After the Palestinians were forced out, these beautiful homes were made available to Israeli families, and my mother was offered one of these homes in one of these neighborhoods. Now she was 22 years old. She was already a mother. And every time she tells me the story, even to this day, because we still talk about it, her reaction is exactly the same. How can I possibly take the home of another family? How can I possibly take the home of another mother? And then she goes on and she said, the looting, how are they not ashamed? These are well-to-do families, well-to-do homes, beautiful rugs and furniture and so on. She said she would sit there and see the trucks full of loot from these homes. She tells, and I've heard this from other, many other people, Palestinians particularly, when the Israeli forces came in, the coffee was still warm on the table when they came into these homes. Now this is a, this is an, of course it's an excellent story and we're all very proud that this is a choice that she made. I don't know if I would have made that choice when I was 22 to just, you know, refuse a beautiful home for free. But for me growing up, this story was very troubling.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Miko Peled: And I couldn't really understand what was troubling about it until I was working on the book, actually. And then I realized her story contradicts the national narrative. The narrative is, the story is, we returned. We, the Jews. We were gone for 2,000 years, but thankfully we're back to reclaim our country. We are reasonable people, so we accepted the partition which allowed the local Arabs Who, by the way, we see as invaders, a small portion of the land. They refused and attacked us. Of course we won. You know, we are the descendants of the Maccabees, so of course we won, and of King David. And then they got up and left. We asked the Arabs to stay, and they left. Their leaders told them, somebody told them. And when I hear this, and I hear— you hear this today, people say, they got up and left. It's not our problem.

Speaker 4: Right.

Miko Peled: And you wonder, how did they leave? Did somebody provide buses? I mean, were they taken to a resort? Were there hotels? Was there housing provided? What do you mean they got up and left? You see the pictures of millions of Palestinians, or hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, children, old people marching in the heat. What do you mean they got up and left? This is the story. And this is our story. Now, the story that she's saying, she's telling, is a completely different story. And how do you bridge this? How do you bridge this? And Israel is very good at always coming out on top morally. You know, the Arabs left, it's not our problem. They started the war, we conquered, hey, it's fair game. We're killing thousands of civilians in Gaza. Phosphorus bombs being dropped, children burning alive.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Miko Peled: But it's okay because Hamas is in Gaza. So morally we're okay because Hamas is the problem, not us. Israel is very good always coming out on top morally. And like I said, this was— both of these stories were stuck in my head for a very long time until I could finally understand how— what was going on. Now there's this story out there. Which is very interesting and it was a story that I believed as well for a very long time. And that is that the occupation in Palestine, that the occupied Palestinian territories were occupied in 1967. That there was no occupation until 1967. Now this is what Israel looked like between when it was established, you know, 1948, beginning of 1949, until 1967.

Speaker 4: Wow.

Miko Peled: Basically Israel was occupying 80% of Palestine almost, except for 2 areas that were delineated and determined by Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Then the 1967 war came and those lands were taken and now we hear that the occupation of Palestine began in 1967. And the question I ask is, so what happened, what about all that What about the part of Palestine, the big part of Palestine that was occupied in 1948? Does it not count? What about the Palestinians who live in those places? What about the refugees whose homes were taken and land was taken? Does none of this count?

Speaker 3: It—

Miko Peled: you know, when I hear this today, especially today when there's so much information out there, that the occupation began in 1967 or the occupied Palestinian territories All of Israel is occupied Palestinian territories. There are no territories there that are not occupied Palestinian territories. They talk about the occupied Palestinian territories as though it's another part of the country. It's only in one little part. It's different from Israel. It's all occupied. They talk about illegal settlements. They say, oh my God, Israel is building more settlements in the West Bank. Israel is building more settlements in East Jerusalem. Of course they are. All of Israel, all Israeli cities are illegal settlements.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Miko Peled: All Israelis are settlers. Of course, Israelis who live in this part of the country look at the people who live in the West Bank as though they're different. We're not like them, you know, we're peace-loving people. They are the problem. There's no difference. They're all settlers. They all live on stolen Palestinian land. Like I said earlier, to try to reduce Palestine to these 2 little areas that make up only about 20% of the country Is absurd. But that's the myth that's out there. Now, the book is called The General's Son and my father was the general. And this is the picture of the entire Israeli general staff, or the top brass, right after the 1967 war. This is like the victory picture. Now what we hear about this war is That Arab armies were amassed at the border, ready to come in and destroy the state of Israel. Israel was under an existential threat. It had no choice. It opted for a preemptive strike. Thankfully, once again, we, the descendants of the Maccabees and King David, defeated the evil Arabs who wanted to kill us and destroy us. And we did it in 6 days. We did all of that in 6 days. Now, when I was working on the book, one of the things I chose to do was to go into the Israeli Army archives, mostly to learn about my father's career. I didn't really think I was going to find anything, you know, that I haven't seen before, because so much has been written about this. And particularly I wanted to see the minutes of the meetings of the generals leading up to the 1967 war. A lot has been written about the period leading up to the war. Why there was a war, why they waited, why they didn't wait. There was this thing going on between the government and the army and all this kind of— it was very interesting stuff. So I wanted to read the minutes of the meetings. So— and these are available. Many people have written about them. Many people have seen them. Again, I wasn't expecting any new revelations. But as soon as I started reading those minutes, I noticed something that I hadn't seen anywhere else, something my father says, the other generals concur. And that is that— now they were talking particularly about the Egyptian army because that was really the main supposedly threat. That was the only really army of any consequence. And they're saying the Egyptian army is not prepared for war. The Egyptian army needs— somebody needs to wake up?

Speaker 3: Oh, come on.

Miko Peled: That the Egyptian army needs at least a year and a half to 2 years before it's prepared for war. Therefore, we now need to attack them. What was the story? Now, the story that I knew was there was this existential threat, that the forces were on the border ready to come in and rape and slaughter us all. And they're saying that the Arab armies were not prepared for war, therefore we have— are you ready for this?— an opportunity. We now have an opportunity to go in and destroy. My father says this, the other generals say this as well. Nothing about a threat at all. Now if the Egyptian army wasn't ready, certainly the other Arab armies were no challenge for the IDF. But in order to create public— to force public opinion to support the war and in order to force the government to approve the war, they needed to create a myth that there was an existential threat. And they talk about this in their meetings. It's in the minutes, the need to create the impression that there is an existential threat. And they were successful. Of course, they got the approval. In 6 days, they destroyed 3 Arab armies, killing almost 18,000 Arab soldiers at a loss of 700 soldiers to the Israeli forces. Now, every soldier we know is somebody's son or Or husband or brother, so we cry for all of them. But the difference between 700 and 18,000? Who was the threat? And all of this, all this tremendous threat was eliminated in 6 days, 5 actually. So certainly we have to reach a conclusion. That in fact, in 1967, Israel did not fight a war of— a defensive war that was forced upon it. In 1967, Israel completed the occupation of Palestine. The occupation didn't begin in 1967, it was completed in 1967 by the taking of the West Bank and Gaza. The taking of the West Bank and Gaza, I'll say it again, it was not the beginning of the occupation. It was the completion of the occupation of what we call Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel. Now, people like to talk about it as the Jewish state. By taking these lands and completing the— and by the way, the generals themselves called it Finishing the job. They congratulated themselves on what they saw as finishing the job, the job of the conquest of the land of Israel. It wasn't like they were hiding it or anything. By taking these lands, Israel completed the project of establishing one state for the Jewish people in Palestine with exclusive rights for Jewish people. Now, they call this a Jewish state. Most Jews don't live there. Most Jews don't live there. The majority of the people who live there are not Jewish. Out of 12 million people, 6.1 million people are Palestinians. So Palestinians are the majority. It's probably a little bit more than that by now. Israel is not espousing some kind of Jewish values that I know of, denying children water, Kicking people out of their homes, dropping millions of tons of bombs on civilians. What exactly is Jewish about any of this? The only thing that is Jewish about Israel is that Jewish people have exclusive rights. That is what makes it Jewish. And what this tells us is there's nothing anti-Semitic about criticizing and rejecting Israel. Because there's nothing Jewish about Israel. It's a racist regime. It's a colonialist idea. It has nothing to do with Jews. In fact, many Jews reject— many Jewish people rejected it from the very beginning. But a lot of people are afraid to talk about this. And to talk about this clearly because nobody likes to be called anti-Semitic. And we know that the Anti-Defamation League and the Israeli lobby and all these other pro-Israeli groups are in the business of making people feel guilty, guilting people into supporting Israel. You can't say a word against Israel before, you know, getting the ADL or somebody coming in and creating some kind of a storm. Let them create a storm. This is anti-Semitism? So what do you call somebody who supports this? What do you call somebody who supports this? What kind of racist, violent, brutal values do people have when they support this?

Speaker 4: Murder.

Miko Peled: You know, the other thing is, yes, the other thing is people talk about, you know, Jimmy Carter has been involved in this issue and he wrote the book. He took the word apartheid out of the box and put it out there. But only in the West Bank. In fact, he was there this— a couple months ago and I was there at the same time and one of the things he said was there's something around a lot like— I'm paraphrasing— there are instances of apartheid-like policies or something like that.

Speaker 1: Excuse me?

Miko Peled: The very first laws that were passed by the Israeli Knesset, by the Israeli parliament in the early 1950s as soon as the state was established were laws that defined Israel as a racist apartheid state, a state only for the Jewish population in a country that's an Arab country with a large Palestinian non-Jewish population. Laws that govern citizenship, land rights, land ownership, you name it. And these laws continue every single day. I mean, more and more laws are added to the Israeli law books that discriminate against Palestinians. Palestinians, and I'm talking about Palestinian citizens. In other words, the Palestinians who are Israeli citizens. Never mind the ones in the West Bank and Gaza. They have no rights. But this is, you know, the apartheid regime was established from the very beginning on the entire country. The occupation began in 1948. The apartheid regime began as soon as the state of Israel was established. And it's time to say this clearly. And I'll say it again, there's nothing anti-Semitic about it because there's nothing Jewish about criticizing it because there's nothing Jewish about it. And in fact, in 1967 Israel wiped Palestine off the map, crossed out Palestine. And then we hear people, you know, Golda Meir and several others all these years saying there was no Palestine. I never heard of Palestine before 1967. This was some kind of an invention.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Miko Peled: Very, very convenient. This is, by the way, the picture of my father, still in uniform. Now he did something very strange. He was one of the— and this is— you can see this clearly in the minutes of the meetings. He was pushing for the war. He was one of the strongest, loudest, rudest, demanding from the Israeli prime minister and the cabinet to start the damn war. After the war, at the very first meeting of the Israeli High Command after the war, of course the sense of glory, the sense of this messianic almost glory of the conquest and this wonderful victory, everybody's basking in the glory and he stands up and he says, we now have an opportunity to solve the Palestinian problem. And the way to do it is by allowing the Palestinians to establish their own state in these areas that we just conquered, in the West Bank and Gaza. Everybody looked at him like he was, you know, maybe he drank too much or something, like he was out of his mind. He said, if we maintain this occupation of these lands, We are going to be faced with resistance. We're going to have to spend all of our resources fighting this resistance. And eventually we're going to become a binational state. We're not going to become a Jewish— we're no longer going to be a Jewish state. He said this in 1967. There were no settlements yet or anything. But as he was saying these things, you know, the gun barrels were still smoking. Israeli bulldozers were already destroying Palestinian neighborhoods and towns in the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.

Speaker 4: Right.

Miko Peled: And building cities and towns and neighborhoods for Israeli Jews only on Palestinian land. Exactly what they did in 1948, they repeated in the West Bank in 1967. As he was saying these things that were prophetic, if we look back now almost 50 years later, everything he said actually took place. Today there is no West Bank, by the way. There is no West Bank. It's all one country. When you drive along the highways, the signs that go to cities in the West Bank, the signs that go to cities in other parts of the country are all the same. It's all the same signs. And they all point to Israeli cities. Very few point to any Palestinian towns. Then my father retired from the military about a year later, and then he kept pushing and kept promoting this idea of what we know today as the two-state solution. Basically a small Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza living in peace with a larger Israel. And he established an organization along with other Israelis like him, prominent but retired so to speak, who promoted this idea. Eventually they were contacted by the leadership of— the Palestinian leadership, by the Palestine Liberation Organization. Top people, top Arafat aides contacted them and they began a discussion that lasted several decades on this idea, on how they might implement it. Now within the Palestinian leadership there was a split. Some accepted this idea and thought it was a good idea, very pragmatic, very, you know, realistic. Others said absolutely no way. And in this picture, by the way, my father is with Essam Sartawi who was the main proponent of this in the Palestinian leadership. He was the Palestinian ambassador in France for many years and later he was assassinated. And the main idea, the main thrust was to try to convince of course the Israelis to recognize this and to convince Yasser Arafat to give up and change the Palestinian platform which called for a single democratic state over all of Palestine. Recognize the State of Israel and accept this 2-state solution idea. By 1988, Arafat was convinced and basically in 1988 he accepted this and that was kind of the beginning of the beginning of what we know are the peace talks. Eventually we all heard, or I'm assuming everybody here heard about the Oslo Peace Accords, 1993, the White House lawn, Yitzhak Rabin and Arafat shaking hands, Bill Clinton in the standing there in the middle and so on. And I think what we need to wrap our heads around when we talk about these peace talks, there was a moment there of promise that maybe this 2-state solution could work. And there were a lot of people who felt very optimistic about Oslo for a while there. But this promise led to catastrophe. And when we look at this picture, the people who were involved in creating and pushing for this so-called peace accord, this Oslo Accord— look at this picture. If that doesn't tell you everything, I don't know what will. Who are the 2 on the left? So, good. So we got on the one side, we've got Jordan King Hussein. On the other side we've got the Egyptian President Mubarak. 2 vicious, brutal dictators that nobody ever elected. Now we consider them— they're both dead but it doesn't matter— them and their successors, we consider them to be moderate Arabs, which really means bribable and willing to conform to American and Israeli policies.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Miko Peled: On the Israeli side, we have Yitzhak Rabin, who I don't know if he's the worst war criminal, but certainly one of the top 3 worst war criminals in Israel. He was later given the Nobel Peace Prize. He should have been sent to The Hague for war crimes. And then they're all led by the American president, and we know that no American can be president unless they support Israel fully, 110%. No man can be— in fact, no man or woman can hold office in America unless they support Israel 110%. That's another story. But this is— nothing good can come out of this combination. Certainly nothing good for the Palestinians. Since these peace accords were signed, things went from bad to worse to unbelievably worse. I don't think anybody thought things could get this bad. And at every point we say, well, how much worse can it get? And of course Israel surprises us by making things worse. For the Palestinians. These so-called peace accords only allowed Israel to strengthen its hold and strengthen its control on the land, on the resources, and on the people, making life for Palestinians even more unlivable. That's what this was. There was a moment of promise, but it turned out to be catastrophic. And if you were to tell somebody's day, just anybody on the street, to describe a day in the life of a Palestinian, nobody would believe you because it's just unbelievable, incomprehensible. Now there's another issue I think that is crucially important and isn't really talked about enough or at all actually, and that's the issue of Palestinian prisoners. And the ones I chose to put on the On the screen here, Shirin and Samer Isawi. Samer Isawi holds the record for the longest hunger strike in history. He survived something like 250 days of a hunger strike. Khader Adnan was held and also conducted a very long hunger strike twice. One was a couple years ago and one was just recently, over 55 days. Now, the issue of the prisoners is very interesting, 'cause of course Israel calls them terrorists. But according to Israeli sources, the vast majority of Palestinians held in Israeli jails have never been charged with acts of violence. According to Israeli sources, and we're talking about the military courts where the bar is set very low. So they're not terrorists, they're political prisoners. Now, the world as a community and the United Nations recognizes that people have a right to resist. In fact, this is directly from a UN resolution that reaffirms the legitimacy Of people's struggle for liberation from colonial foreign domination, alien subjugation, which is exactly what Israel is, by all available means. Now I'm not someone who's going to preach for armed resistance or violence, but including armed resistance. So this tells us 2 things. Number one, Hamas is not the problem. Number two, if Israel does not like rockets coming out of Gaza, Israel Israel has the ability to stop it by giving these people freedom, allowing the people in Gaza to live. But more importantly, the vast majority— I think this is important to remember— the vast majority of Palestinian resistance has always been unarmed. Of course, the armed resistance gets all the news. Now, these 2 men— by the way, the woman, the lady there is Shireen Esawi, she's his sister, she's an attorney, she goes in and out of jail. The reason they went on a hunger strike was because of what Israel calls administrative detention, where Israel can detain people and keep them pretty much indefinitely without charge, without trial. Now here's the thing, we're talking about again the Israeli military court, 'cause Israeli military law governs Palestinians in the West Bank. And even they found nothing with which to charge these people, yet they arrest them and keep them in and out of jail or sometimes in jail for years.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Miko Peled: Today Israel holds about 6,000 Palestinian prisoners in its jails in violation of God only knows how many international laws. And nobody talks about this. One of many things that people don't talk about. Now there's another aspect of my story. People always ask, you know, how I got into this and why and what was the thing, the What propelled me to do this. And this is really the story. I mean, I was not involved in activism or anything like that for a very long time. In September of 1997, my sister's little girl, Smadar, was killed in a suicide attack in Jerusalem. It was an attack that was ordered and executed by Hamas. I was living here in the US at the time. I took the first plane home.

Speaker 4: Aww.

Miko Peled: By the time I reached my sister's apartment in Jerusalem, it was packed with people who came to express their sorrow, but also with the press. Now this is big news. Things like this are always big news in Israel when this used to take place. But of course now this was the granddaughter of Mati Peli, the granddaughter of a famous Israeli general. And not only a general, but a general who became an advocate for peace and Palestinian rights. He'd already passed away by then. So like I said, this was very big news. Now, after the funeral, my sister Nareed came out and started talking to people. And the questions that are always asked, that were asked, were always the same question. Number 2, who's responsible? Second question is asked, how do we get them? How do we get them back? How do we make them pay?

Speaker 1: Revenge, retaliation.

Miko Peled: And Norit, my sister, came out and said, no real mother would want to see this happen to any other mother. Don't talk to me about killing more people. Killing more people— Killing more people in response to somebody's death, particularly a child, You know, she quoted a famous line from Bialik, a Jewish poet, that said, even the devil himself could not come up with a vengeance that's appropriate for the death of a child. Don't talk to me about killing more people because no real mother would want to see this grief fall upon another mother. In terms of who's responsible, she said, basically, who is it that's keeping Palestinians under this oppressive occupation?

Speaker 4: Right.

Miko Peled: Who is it that's destroying Palestinians' homes? Who is it that is killing Palestinian children? Who is it that is incarcerating Palestinian fathers and mothers? What do we expect? We the Israelis as a society are responsible. And both she and Rami, her husband, said they hold the Israeli government directly responsible for Smadar's death. So now of course this became even bigger news. Because here's an Israeli mother who is now turning everything upside down. We know that they're the terrorists and the Israelis are the good guys. Israel wants peace. The Arabs, the Palestinians don't want peace. And here's this Israeli mother who's turning everything upside down. So, of course, this became very big news. She's been outspoken all these years. Her son, Eli, who's right here, my nephew, he's also a veteran for peace, big time, is out there speaking and promoting the idea of reconciliation and the end of—

Speaker 1: War.

Miko Peled: Of Israeli oppression of Palestinians and so forth. Now I came back to the US and what do you do? I mean, I don't know if you've seen the coffin of a little girl going to the ground, it's not something you can just go to work the next day and say, well, moving on. My good fortune was that here in San Diego I came across this group which was a dialogue group, a Jewish-Palestinian dialogue group, a discussion group. Now here's the thing, I was born and raised in Jerusalem which is supposedly a mixed city. Here in San Diego, meeting with Palestinians was the first time I actually met Palestinians.

Speaker 4: Wow.

Miko Peled: Now, talk about an apartheid regime, if you've been to Jerusalem, it is a racist segregated city. There is no place for Israelis and Palestinians to get together. In fact, the line in the chapter in the book that talks about the story begins with the line, my journey into Palestine began in San Diego.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Miko Peled: Growing up in Jerusalem, I mean, you see them, but there's no contact. And here I was sitting in the living room. We would meet once a month in somebody's home. And there's a little food and so on. And suddenly I'm hearing— now dialogue, it's not— nobody's accusing anybody. Everybody's telling their story. And suddenly I'm hearing this other story. Forced expulsions, massacres, all these horrible things that were not possible Because we do not do that. We're Israelis. The Israeli soldiers, Israeli army does not do these things. They never did these things, not in '48, not any time after that. Maybe a few, you know, bad apples. But we don't do this. This was impossible. What these Palestinians were telling me was not possible. Not just unbelievable, not possible. And a lot of Israelis or other Jews would come and leave these meetings in anger. And they would say to me, how can you sit with these people? They're all extremists. But you know what happens after time. You sit with people, you talk, you develop this very dangerous thing called trust.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Miko Peled: And it's hard to just discount them all as anti-Semites and crazies and whatever, terrorists. So at that time, another thing that happened that helped a lot was Ilan Pappé and some of the other Israeli historians came out with these revisions of the history of 1948 and that helped a great deal. And then I began my own journey. I would go into Palestinian cities. I drove into the West Bank. I describe here to Bil'in, my first drive alone in an Israeli car into the West Bank was to Bil'in which is today the Mecca of nonviolent resistance and so forth. And I thought I was gonna die. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that driving into the West Bank alone as an Israeli with an Israeli license plate, I was not going home that day. This was going to be my last day on earth. And I didn't even know that I had this fear, this virus in my head. As I'm driving this beautiful countryside, all I can see is the Arabs around the corner with knives waiting to slaughter me. It was really insane and I had no idea I had this kind of fear.

Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Miko Peled: But that was the beginning of the journey, and that was, you know, it's a journey that goes on to this day. I think if there's one compliment that people give me about the book more than anything, and it's the most humbling thing anybody can say, is that it gave them hope. And I think too often we talk about this issue as though it is hopeless.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Miko Peled: We criticize Israel, we may be on the right side of the issue, but the conclusion always is that this is hopeless. There's nowhere to go. It's going to go from bad to worse to worse, and that's the end of the story. And I think it is criminally irresponsible to talk about this without looking for hope, without seeing the end. So if we have context, we know the beginning, we realize where we are today, maybe somewhere in the middle, and we have to talk about the end of the story. It's not going to happen on its own. We have to create the end. We have to create this, the end of the story. It's up to us. Apartheid in South Africa didn't just fall one day because the white people woke up and said, let's be nice to blacks. I was in South Africa. It's a wonderful place, by the way. Everybody should visit. And they all say the same thing. We are grateful to the world for the boycotts, for the divestment, for the sanctions, for For the isolation of the apartheid regime, for allowing us to destroy apartheid, the apartheid regime. Of course, they're very supportive of Palestine now as well. But where can we find hope? We have to realize that we have a choice. The choice is not one state, two states. The choice is a single state with exclusive rights for Jewish people, a single state that denies Palestinians rights, a single state that murders Palestinians on a regular basis in prime time like we saw last summer in Gaza, a single state that shoots Palestinians when they protest unarmed, a single state with thousands of political prisoners, basically a single brutal racist regime. That's one option over the entire country. Or a single state that respects human rights, that respects justice, that is democratic, that sees all people as equal, and allows for justice. These are the 2 options. The first option exists today. So the first option means we do nothing. We allow $10 million to go to Israel every single day. We allow Israel to get away with crimes against Palestinians. And we think it's a good idea. Or we don't care. If we want to see something change, we have to make it change. We have to do this. Boycott, divestment, and sanctions, BDS. You know, 5, 6 years ago when you'd say BDS, people didn't know what you're talking about. Today everybody has an idea. Some people like it, some people don't like it. It's part— it's an integral part, it's an important part, it's a principal part of Palestinian resistance. We have to support it. We have to support it. There has to be boycotts, sanctions, divestment, isolation, just like was done with South Africa. Israel should not be allowed to play soccer. Israel should not be allowed to participate in the Olympics. Israelis, anything that has to do with representing the state of Israel should not be allowed to go on without disruption. We cannot allow this to continue and pretend that everything is fine. Now, the possibility, if we look at the last 50 years, you know, fascism fell in Europe, communism fell in Europe, dictatorships fell in Latin America, apartheid fell in South Africa, Yeah. Like I said, nothing of this— none of these things happen on their own. Of all of these examples, Palestine is probably the easiest one. We have 2 nations who are very similar. If this room was filled with Israelis and Palestinians, you couldn't really— couldn't tell them apart culturally, religiously, linguistically, in any way, shape, or form, education levels. They're very similar. If any one of these conflicts or these issues is easy to solve, it's easy to see Israelis and Palestinians working together and creating a real democracy, a functioning state together. And once we get to that point, that's when we start solving the big problems. The right of return, compensation, restitution, all these things that need to be resolved. Water rights, land rights, all these other things. None of that can be resolved as long as the state of Israel remains as it is, which is this Zionist racist regime. It won't allow for anything to change. A real democracy with equal rights, a reality in which Israelis and Palestinians can live together is possible, but we have to remove the Zionist regime. We have to change it into a real democracy. We have to get rid of the apartheid. You know, apartheid was a bad word, so it was easy to attack it. Zionism is kind of biblical and Jewish, so nobody likes to attack it because It makes you seem like you hate Jews. You know? They're very smart. But Zionism is the problem. The state of Israel as it is today with this ideology is the problem. We remove that and we allow for real democracy to emerge, real equal rights to emerge, releasing of prisoners. These are the things that can happen. And we have to let them happen. Now I want to leave you with these 2 images. Talk about hope. You know, if you've been there, you know. If you haven't been there, you should know. It's a beautiful country. It's an absolutely beautiful country. It's definitely a country worth living for. It's definitely a country— this is definitely a cause worth fighting for.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Miko Peled: This issue of Palestine is going to define all of us. In fact, it's already defining all of us, like the Vietnam War was, like civil rights in this country. It is defining all of us. People are going to ask, where did you stand?

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Miko Peled: On this issue, like apartheid in South Africa. This is a defining issue of our time, or certainly one of the major ones. It's the right side of the issue to support the Palestinian cause, to support a real democracy with equal rights, to support the end of the racist regime in Palestine. And when Palestine is free, as it will, as it must be, as I absolutely believe it will be, All of us will be able to proudly— or to feel proud of the fact that we had some small thing, you know, that we had a part, we had some small role in making it happen. So I encourage all of you to take on this cause. You've taken on a lot of causes. This is the right cause. And like I said, when Palestine is free, as it must As it should be, we are all going to be very proud of the fact that we supported the cause. Thank you all very much.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Miko Peled: If I could have a piece of paper, I'll take a few questions. And I'd like to take— My question is, if we support BDS of Israel, are we not also punishing Palestinians and children and everybody who lives in Palestine? I'm going to take 3 questions at a time.

Speaker 3: Patrick?

Miko Peled: Yeah, if we could comment also on the I want to ask about the role of the U.S. in keeping the whole region off balance, in having a— in its global ambitions, having Israel as kind of a cop on the beat in the region.

Speaker 4: And yeah.

Miko Peled: I'm wondering if you could talk about the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Let's take one more and then I'll— let's do one more. After 9/11, for Larry Silverstein and Paul Wolfowitz to still walk around as free people, aren't— isn't America an apartheid state today as well? Okay, I'll answer these and then we'll do another round. Boy, you guys don't mess around, do you? Well, it's— you know, there's this claim that BDS, that if we boycott Israel then we're actually harming the Palestinians as well. It's kind of like saying that the occupation brought progress to the Palestinians and the U.S. brought progress to Iraq. That's— it's the same vein, it's the same— you know, the people who claim that can claim the other as well. The call for BDS came from Palestinian civil society.

Speaker 4: Yep.

Miko Peled: Came from Palestinian organizations, grassroots organizations. It came from them, it came from people from labor, from human rights and civil rights groups. You look at the list of the Palestinian organizations that made the original call, the initial call, you know. So I don't believe that's an issue at all. I don't think that's an issue at all. Again, it's like saying that, you know, when we bring progress to Africa and things like that, it's the same kind of claim. It's not true.

Speaker 3: Thank you.

Miko Peled: The anti-BDS laws, they're— I mean, there used to be, I think, there was an anti-boycott law from I think the '70s or something, and they're trying I think to revive it and change it here in the US. There are laws being passed in Israel, there are laws that are being passed in Europe. I don't think you can legislate against a resistance, a national resistance. You cannot legislate against This kind of resistance. It's too strong. I think if they made laws in every single country that BDS, that boycotting Israel is illegal, it still wouldn't stop. You can't legislate against this. There's nothing they can do. It's too strong. The Palestinian resistance, and again BDS is one big pillar, one big part of this resistance, cannot be legislated. You can't legislate and get rid of it. Now there are attempts to do this of course, And the Israeli lobby is all over it both here and in Europe, but I don't think it's gonna help. I don't think it's gonna make a sing— I don't think it's gonna make any difference other than raise it to a point where more people know about it and realize exactly how effective it is. Because if it was not effective, they wouldn't be so scared and trying to legislate against it. I'm not exactly— you probably know more about the role of the U.S. in the region and trying to keep the region on fire.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Miko Peled: But I think there's a danger— to me, when I talk about Palestine, I try to stay on Palestine. I mean, I'm no expert on Syria, Iraq, and all these other things, but you don't have to be a genius to see what America did to these countries and the result of American intervention. But I think it's important for me personally to focus on Palestine and what happens in Palestine. When you look at the region, It's— I mean, the region's on fire, except for perhaps Jordan and Egypt again, these 2 very moderate regimes that we like so much. But certainly keeping Arabs killing Arabs is good for Israel, and therefore this is part of American policy in the Middle East. I don't think America became an apartheid state. I think America was founded as an apartheid state. I keep hearing talking— I'm tired of people talking about how great America was and returning America to being great again. Wasn't this country built on genocide of the natives, stealing the land, and then slavery?

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Miko Peled: And then a horrifying history of racism, Jim Crow, which, by the way, hasn't ended. Look at— I mean, I don't need to tell you what the prison system is doing, the mass incarceration of Black people, the massacre, the killing of— you know, I mean, this country was founded on apartheid. It somehow managed to get away with murder for all kinds of other reasons, but I think it was founded as an apartheid state. Okay, you want to do a quick another round? Maybe 2 more questions and—

Speaker 3: 10 minutes?

Speaker 4: No, we have to be out.

Miko Peled: Oh, out of 10, yes, yes.

Speaker 3: Okay, we'll do 2 questions.

Miko Peled: And I'll be outside with the book when you talk some more.

Speaker 3: Oh, okay.

Miko Peled: I just got back from the 3rd Gaza flotilla, and I wanted to ask you, in your times that you've been in Israel, have you gone down to Haifa Harbor to see what I understand is the tour of the terrorist boats, called the boats from the Gaza flotillas that they have taken and confiscated? I haven't seen it, but I'm sure I've got to see that. Okay, gentleman in the gray shirt.

Speaker 4: Thank you. I just got here, so all my material is in the car. Please take a good look at me. I'm going to be— I'm an activist in BDS, and I have with me letters to be signed to Meg Whitman of Hewlett-Packard. hpboycott.org if you want to find out why we're doing this. Take a good look at me, and when you see me later, I'll have my material, and you can sign a letter to Meg Whitman. The other question that I do have for you is, on the radio, I just heard about Chuck Schumer, who's a big supporter of AIPAC, and who is scheduled to be the next Democratic leader in the Senate.

Miko Peled: Yes.

Speaker 4: You know, that's a very big obstacle that we have to deal with, and so I'd like your comments on that.

Miko Peled: Okay, that's all the questions we have time for. Amigo's going to be outside, and you can speak with him further. We just don't have time, Barry. No, we have to be out by 10 o'clock.

Speaker 4: Sorry.

Miko Peled: It's 4 of now. He's got to answer 2 questions. Well, they're both quite easy to answer. They're not very long. I never heard of this tour, but I'm gonna take it next time I'm there for sure. And thank you, by the way, for all the work that you do. And Phyllis too, by the way, is in here, Phyllis Bennis. So I don't know, but I will certainly make sure to see this next time I'm there. I had no idea it was there. But certainly the Gaza boats are important and courageous. effort to try to help people in Gaza and create awareness. As to Schumer, he's also going to decide he's going to vote against the Iran deal, I think, right?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Miko Peled: So to have another— what's the word— AIPAC collaborator in the Senate running the Senate, I don't think that's anything new in American politics. That's the way it is. I don't think we should allow ourselves to fall into this illusion that Change will come from American politicians. You know, change is gonna come from, you know, people like you, and then eventually when it becomes politically impossible to support Israel, which I hope will be sooner rather than later, then things will change. You know, this idea that somehow the strategic alliance and it's a strategic friend and so forth is all a bunch of nonsense. It's all about the Israeli lobby. Anyway, I'll be outside.

Speaker 4: I'm gonna take—

Miko Peled: You're going to take one more?

Speaker 3: Okay.

Miko Peled: You're the boss.

Speaker 4: Okay, go ahead.

Miko Peled: Make the question. You sound like you have a good strong voice. It's okay.

Speaker 3: Zahid Chowdhury, president, Rachel Corrie chapter, Veterans for Peace. We initiated BDS, and it was very successful. It was so successful that it was talked about in Knesset. It was so successful That the Israeli ambassador came and had meetings in Seattle. So the— our 2 food co-ops instituted BDS. There were many talks before it, many public forums. Hundreds and hundreds of people came in. And we only boycotted 3 products, 3 little products. And then after the Israeli ambassador came and had some meetings in San Francisco and in Seattle, Then we had many lawsuits on our 2 little food co-ops, many, many lawsuits. Every single member, current and past board member, was sued. And then he went to our Thurston County Superior Court, and the judge said that it was SLAPP, you know, anti-First Amendment suit, which these people brought in with the help of the Israeli ambassador. And what happened is that the judge ruled against them and actually fined each petitioner $10,000.

Speaker 4: So—

Miko Peled: I think I'll say one thing. That's great news. I think it teaches us 2 things. Number one, it's not going to be easy. Number two, You know, we're on the right side of the issue, and eventually this is going to be the reality. So that's a great story. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. Things are changing. Thank you all.