Marwan Barghouti - Palestinian Political Prisoner

Speaker 1: We are here. Har Sharón Prison, north of Tel Aviv. 119 Palestinians are incarcerated in this wing. The Israelis say they're terrorists. The Palestinians call them freedom fighters. Today, I was the first Western journalist the Israelis have allowed to interview the man who most Palestinians see as their leader, Yasser Arafat's heir. Marwan Barghouti has been in prison for 4 years, serving 5 life sentences for the murder of Israeli civilians. a charge he rejects. Today, he spoke publicly for the first time.

Marwan Barghouti: The Israelis succeeded to arrest my body, but not my head and not my soul. They will not succeed to do that. They will not break our will for independence and for freedom.

Speaker 1: Barghouti shares a tiny cell with 2 other prisoners. For 3 years, he was kept in solitary confinement. Now he says he's locked up 21 hours a day. We crammed inside for the interview.

Marwan Barghouti: I was in the solitary confinement during most of the time. I didn't see anybody. I didn't receive my children or my wife or anybody. I didn't— you are the first journalist, you and Al Jazeera and the others, who I see. This is the first day in my life in the prison during 5 years, 5, 4 years. That I met anybody.

Speaker 1: Barghouti's poster is all over the West Bank. Despite being in prison, he still tops the list for Fatah, Yasser Arafat's party, in next week's elections.

Suheir Barghouti: Allahumma ikram.

Marwan Barghouti: Allahumma ikram.

Speaker 1: In jail, he's become close to prisoners from the more militant and religious group Hamas. And claims some credit for Hamas's participation in these elections.

Marwan Barghouti: I think that Hamas is part of the Palestinian people, and they have the right to participate. And personally, I was trying all the years before and in the last year to convince them and to pressure them to participate in the elections. So I welcome this decision, historical decision, from Hamas, because what is the meaning of the participation of Hamas in the elections? That they believe in democracy, that they are ready to work according to the rules of the law and the rules of the democracy. And this is very important.

Speaker 1: So, is it the end of the armed struggle? The time for using guns and bombs has gone?

Marwan Barghouti: The Palestinian people— and it should be very clear— the Palestinian people have the full right to resist against the Israeli military occupation in the occupied territories. In any way. Do you think that they will leave Gaza without the Intifada, without resistance? They will not. They stay there about 38 years. Why they get out from Gaza? And I think this is a big achievement of the Intifada. But the Palestinians should give the chance for any efforts, international efforts, regional efforts, and we will do that.

Speaker 1: Barghouti refused to recognize the Israeli court which convicted him in 2004. But many Israelis, especially those who lost family members in suicide bombings, see him as a murderer and terrorist who should never be freed.

Marwan Barghouti: And believe me, the Israelis consider everybody who's against the occupation is a terrorist. And it's not true. I don't think the Israelis are suitable and qualified to describe the people. And the last in the world who can talk about the terror, I think, the Israelis.

Speaker 1: But they had specific proof. They took you to court.

Marwan Barghouti: No.

Speaker 1: They had particular people who they said were murdered. They showed your involvement, that the documents that showed you paying people who'd carried out suicide bombings.

Marwan Barghouti: Absolutely no. And I didn't deal with the Israeli court. I didn't. I don't recognize the right of Israel. To sentence a Palestinian leader, Palestinian member of parliament, the Israelis didn't respect the democracy. If they do, and they know very well, I'm not leading military action here and attacks and here and there. That's right. I'm very, I'm very clear that I support the Palestinian Intifada and the Palestinian resistance against the occupation, and I still. I'm very well. I am— I'm talking with you now in, in, in the Israeli jail. I'm not outside. And I will still say that.

Speaker 1: So what is your view now on suicide bombings, which are continuing? There was suicide bombing in Tel Aviv the other day.

Marwan Barghouti: We didn't do that. And I—

Speaker 1: But what's your opinion of the Palestinians who do do that?

Marwan Barghouti: I think the Israelis didn't help the Palestinians of their internal discussion. To reach to the point about that, I think the Palestinians very— more than any time, very close to take a decision about that. But first of all, the Israelis during the Intifada killed more than 800 Palestinian children.

Speaker 1: Does that justify Palestinians killing Israeli children?

Marwan Barghouti: Yes. In any case, nobody can justify killing civilians, children, women, anywhere in this world. They should be outside of the game. It should be very clear, in Palestine or in Israel.

Speaker 1: Barghouti told me he spends his days reading in English, Arabic, and Hebrew, which he learned during a previous stint in Israeli jails. He's read Edward Said and Paulo Coelho. He's studying leadership, reading the autobiographies of Margaret Thatcher and Bill Clinton, as well as a new biography of the ailing Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Marwan Barghouti: We need 2 leaders who are ready to take decisions, critical decisions, to take risk and to decide, from the Israeli side and the Palestinian side. And I think that my people is ready for peace with the Israeli people. We should build according to the categories of democracy Which are well known in the world. We should build our democratic state. And I think the Palestinian people very qualified to do that.

Suheir Barghouti: We—

Speaker 1: But they're making a mess in Gaza. Look at Gaza. People are shooting each other, kidnapping visitors. It's chaos.

Marwan Barghouti: I think it's a big crime to kidnap any journalist or to kidnap any foreigner. They should stop that. I condemn that. In the media. And I sent the message for the people that I know. And I hope that they will not repeat that.

Speaker 1: Barghouti's wife Fadwa campaigns on his behalf, addressing political meetings in the West Bank, encouraging people to vote for her husband, even though he won't be able to take up his parliamentary seat from prison. He says her role and that of other women is essential.

Marwan Barghouti: Take a big role in the struggle against the occupation. And so I hope that we will see in the future a woman as a prime minister in Palestine.

Speaker 1: And do you think that you will spend the rest of your life in prison? 5 life sentences?

Marwan Barghouti: No, no, absolutely. I will be free with all these prisoners in the Israeli jails. I think it's, it's very clear that the Israelis cannot keep us These tens, tens of thousands in the Israeli jails. And finally, they will discover— you know what happened in, in South Africa? Finally, they go to, to Mandela and start to negotiate with him. What happened in Ireland?

Speaker 1: Yeah, in Ireland, they talked.

Marwan Barghouti: Yeah, they talked finally, and they released all the prisoners. The British government considered them terrorists. So I think we are freedom fighters. Finally, will be get out from the prison. And I see myself as a Palestinian resident who exercise his rights in Palestinian democratic state. This is my dream.

Speaker 4: Since age 15, Marwan Barghouti has been one of the most prominent Palestinian figures in his opposition to the Israeli occupation. This week marks 13 years since his imprisonment in Israeli jail. I sat down with his wife. Fadwa Barghouti this week. Let's see the interview. Mrs. Fadwa Barghouti, thank you very much for this interview. I want to take you to that moment 13 years ago when Marwan was taken into custody. اتخذ فيها مروان على السجن. إيش حسيت؟ What did you feel?

Suheir Barghouti: هاي اللحظة.

Fadwa Barghouti: نعم أول شيء في إحساس شخصي وفي إحساس عام. First, on the one hand, there are the personal feelings, and on the other hand, you have the general ones. On the personal level, any woman in the world whose husband is taken in this way and judged the way Marwan was, it's not an easy thing for her. She is worried about the future of her children. Will she be able to fill the void for them? Can she— can I be a mother and a father to our 4 children? But on the other hand, I'm one Palestinian woman out of thousands of Palestinian women, mothers, that have experienced the same suffering that I'm going through, and sometimes worse. So when you see the suffering of others and reconsider your own problems, in a way you feel some relief. يعني مصحور جزء لا يتجزأ من الهم.

Speaker 4: You know, there is a general sentiment on the Palestinian street that Marwan's form of resistance, armed resistance, is no longer relevant. When you speak with Marwan, do you feel as though he feels he made a mistake? Maybe he understands now that the diplomatic stance taken also by the Palestinian Authority has replaced the old form of resistance.

Fadwa Barghouti: يعني أولاً المناضل مروان برغوثي فقد من عمره. First of all, Marwan lost twenty years of his life in Israeli prisons for his belief in the right of the Palestinian people to freedom and independence. بالنسبة لمروان برغوثي كان هو Marwan's goal has always been ending the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Marwan Barghouti believes in politics. He's a politician of the first degree. He's a political and national leader and loved by his people. He fought for peace with bravery and spent time on the Palestinian street advocating for peace. ولكن مروان البرغوثي But he also believes in international law, which gives occupied people the right to fight for their independence and freedom. من أجل حريةها واستقلالها.

Speaker 4: هذا القانون الدولي اللي شاف مروان ك. But that same international law did not view Marwan Barghoutis as a political leader. Instead, it viewed him as a terrorist. 14 سنين فاتت بالسنة 14. He's now entering his 14th year in prison, not as political prisoner, at least not in the view of Israel and international community. He's imprisoned as a terrorist, as someone whose hands are covered in blood of Jewish victims.

Fadwa Barghouti: In Israel, every Palestinian child is guilty of terrorism. In Israel, the Palestinian people, as a whole, is guilty of terrorism. Marwan Barghouti's trial was a political trial in every sense of the word. And its goal was to stop the Palestinian resistance, to stop the Intifada, to stop the right of the Palestinians to independence. This is the Israeli view. But I disagree with you completely in terms of how he's viewed the world. The world's most important leaders, from ministers to politicians, from the U.S. to Latin America and Ireland, they do not view Marwan Barghouti as a terrorist. They view him as a brave campaigner for peace and as a loyal leader of his people.

Speaker 4: Do you think this view would be easy to accept by an Israeli mother who lost her child?

Fadwa Barghouti: Unfortunately, I don't accept that we should discuss the suffering of Israeli women without discussing the suffering of the Palestinian women. A mother is a mother, and a woman is a woman, no matter where in the world she comes from, whether it be Israel or Palestine or Syria. So when you ask about the Israeli mother, I ask you back: Can a Palestinian mother who buried her child in Sijal, like many other Palestinians? Can she accept that the suffering be passed down to her grandchildren, as well? Her children are suffering, and her father may have suffered. This dates back several generations. Should her grandchildren suffer, too?

Speaker 4: To pick up on your point, I want to repeat my question, because you didn't answer me yet. In his own mind, does Marwan consider that it's time to stop fighting? It's time to stop burying our children. That the way of the past is not the right way today. For a leader, it's sometimes necessary to recognize that we've made a mistake and fix that mistake for the sake of our people. وهون يمكن أنا لازم أصلح غلطي عشان شعبي يعني.

Fadwa Barghouti: Any person in his right mind would rather achieve his right to freedom through conversation and peaceful means. The Palestinian people has given peace and negotiations a chance time and time again, more than any other people possibly could. Of course, Marwan Barghouti, as a leader, would rather that the Palestinian people achieve their freedom through negotiations and peace. But he's a leader, and he's been elected, and he expresses the view of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people has already waited 23 years since Madrid, and we have not made a single step forward. On the contrary, the settlements have grown, the number of Palestinian prisoners has increased, the number of checkpoints has increased, and the number of victims has increased. What can the Palestinian people We can only continue to seek protection under international law, which protects all people in their fight for independence.

Speaker 4: On the Israeli street and in Israeli politics, there are people who claim that Marwan Barghouti knows the Israelis better than they know themselves. What does he know about Israelis today that he didn't know before?

Fadwa Barghouti: Firstly, Marwan is a very educated man. Secondly, he has mastered Hebrew completely. Thirdly, he obtains and reads every book that is published in Israel. Israeli politicians cannot take the time to read every single book. Marwan Barghouti, in his isolation chamber, reads every book about Israeli politics, institutions, Israeli leaders, Israeli concerns and priorities. He knows them all. So it's not a stretch to say he knows a great deal about Israeli society. I don't want to elaborate on this, but he knows a great deal about Israelis. يعرف عنهم الكثير ويعرف عن تركيبتهم الكثير. And the painful thing is that Israel has proven in its recent round of elections it does not aspire to peace, as we the Palestinian people do. عن السلام اللي بننشده إحنا كفلسطينيين.

Speaker 4: بمعنى داسألك سؤال آخر. One final question. There are those who say that certain Palestinian leaders would not like to see Marwan Barghouti's release from jail. What do you say to these people? Or perhaps they may be right.

Fadwa Barghouti: I find it very difficult to believe that there is one single Palestinian who does not want to see Marwan Barghouti a free man. If there is a Palestinian who thinks this of Marwan, I doubt he's truly a Palestinian. I cannot imagine that there are Palestinians who do not want to see him released.

Speaker 4: What will be the first thing you'd like to say to your husband on the day of his release?

Fadwa Barghouti: إيش راح تقولينه؟ راح أقوله. I'll say I'm proud of you. I'll say I've missed you, but for the sake of the Palestinian people, I've made this sacrifice. شعب بس تحق التضحية.

Speaker 4: فدوى برووتي، thank you very much for this interview.

Speaker 7: Well, as Mahmoud Abbas looks for new ideas to push for a two-state solution, political prisoners in Palestine are still on hunger strike. As many as 1,500 prisoners have been protesting. against the grim conditions inside Israeli prisons for more than 3 weeks. They're calling for more family visits, better medical attention and an end to imprisonment without charge. Now, Marwan Barghouti is one of those prisoners. He's serving multiple life sentences. His son, Marwan Barghouti— his son, Arab Marwan Barghouti, joins us now from Washington. Thank you very much for joining us, sir.

Fadwa Barghouti: Thank you.

Speaker 7: So, just— first of all, just tell us the What's the current state of your father at the moment?

Arab Marwan Barghouti: Yeah, well, as you guys know, the hunger strike started like 17 days ago. I'm here in Washington to— in a trip just to raise our voice, to reach as many people as we can about the hunger strike that is going on. My father is leading the strike. He's doing it for us. He's doing it to be able to see us, because I haven't seen my father for 2 years, for example. I haven't been able to even touch him for 15 years. These are the demands he's asking for. He's not asking for privilege. He's not asking for too much.

Marwan Barghouti: I'm sorry.

Arab Marwan Barghouti: The demands can easily be met, but with the arrogance of the current Israeli government, we know that they just want to make it hard, and they want to make it the hard way.

Speaker 7: And, of course, your father was convicted. And the Israeli ministry say, in a New York Times article, that he's on hunger strike to further his own political ambitions. What's your response to that criticism coming from the Israelis?

Arab Marwan Barghouti: Yeah, about the political ambitions, I say just read the demands. You're going to find them only asking about human rights, nothing political about the message, nothing political about the strike. They're not asking anything political. The only thing they're asking for is to be treated as humans. The only thing The only thing they're asking for is to be able to visit their families. I personally used to go visit my father like maybe once every 2 years, which is illegal by every international law. And the visit would take me 20 hours just to see him 45 minutes without even being able to touch him, on the phone, where I can barely hear his voice. And you're a journalist. It's a humane message. Anyone who says it's political, they are only distracting you from the ultimate goal, from the main goal, that it's just asking for human demands.

Speaker 7: An Arab, are you receiving political support from the Palestinian organizations like Hamas and Fatah?

Arab Marwan Barghouti: Honestly, it's— We can't say we're receiving or we're not. You can ask that to my family, who are located in Ramallah, back home. For me, I'm just receiving the support of the world. We got— as you all know, we started the Salt Water Challenge, and we received a lot of support from the world. We got messages. We got videos.

Marwan Barghouti: Right.

Arab Marwan Barghouti: Everyone is doing the challenge in solidarity with Palestinian political prisoners. We're proud of that. We're keeping it going. We have on board some surprises of Nobel Prize winners, of mothers from Argentina who lost their sons back in the '60s when the struggle was going. Everyone is in support. the challenge with the prisoners. Now, when it comes to the Palestinian officials, I'm sure they're working on it, working on it. But honestly, we're not seeing these efforts. And we are waiting for the demands to be met. We are waiting for everyone to unite in one voice, the voice of humanity.

Speaker 7: We ask humanity And finally, then, Arab Marwan Barghouti, how far do you think your father is willing to go?

Arab Marwan Barghouti: I'm going to quote my father when he said, our chains will be broken before we are. My father is a man who knows what he's doing. He's experienced. He spent in Israeli jails. Throughout his life, more than 21 years.

Speaker 1: He—

Arab Marwan Barghouti: I think my father is a man that keeps his word. What he's asking is just his basic human rights. If you go to any international law, you're going to find what he's asking is legal to any prisoner. We're not talking why he's there from the first place. Right. Like, he shouldn't be there. He was backed by very high-profile people like Nelson Mandela, like the ex-president of the U.S., Jimmy Carter, like Angela Davis, and many names, Desmond Tutu. I can't name them right now. He's a very high-profile, prominent Palestinian political leader. He's going to take it as far as he can. far as it takes to get his demands, and his 1,600 fellow prisoners, who I send my love, my energy to all of them, not only my father. It's not only about him. It's about many prisoners who are asking for justice. We're talking about Karim Younis, who spent 35 years in jails in Israeli jails, the longest political leader in history, who we saw 2 days ago in trial. And they asked him about my father. And we can't— as a son, I'm worried about my father. We don't know anything about him. The lawyers are not allowed to go there. No one is allowed to go there. So it's really frustrating for us, because they put him in the solitary confinement. He is currently in solitary confinement. He spent 3 years of his life in solitary confinement. So someone with this mentality is not going to give up. Someone with this mentality is going to get his demand, because the arrogance of the Israeli government is not to be explained. And we need this to end right now. And I encourage everyone personally who is seeing me right now through your TV to join us. Thank you. Just to do the challenge and just to raise their voice with humanity and with justice.

Speaker 7: Arab Marwan Barghouti, we thank you for joining us.

Adam Harvey: In a hilltop village outside the West Bank city of Ramallah, a momentous day. Well-wishers gather to welcome home a Palestinian prisoner. It's a cross-faith homecoming. لأنني أتت لكاي.

Speaker 7: ورحب بأختنا الأسيرة المحررة.

Adam Harvey: سوهير باغوتي was freed before dawn to great celebration. There's been no sleep since. أم أسف as she's known in Arabic is one of more than three and a half thousand Palestinians detained after the October seven attacks. She was not charged or told what she was accused of.

Suheir Barghouti: لما أجر اعتكلوني اعتكلوا حوالي عشرين شب من البلد منهم إخوتي ثلاث وأولادهم وجبوهم جميعهم ولموهم عندهم معاصف مع أنها ما لهاش ذنب فيهم.

Adam Harvey: She says this photo was taken by the arresting officer and posted on his Facebook page with the following caption.

Suheir Barghouti: أنا نظفنا كوبر. من حماس داعش.

Adam Harvey: إسرائيل says the officer was not with the IDF. The Barghouti family believe he was with the Shin Bet, Israel's internal security agency, which did not respond to our questions. The Barghouti clan have long fought against Israel's occupation of the West Bank, some with guns and some with words. In 1978, Um Asaf's husband. Omar, was sentenced to decades in jail. Her son, Saleh, was shot dead in 2018 after an attack on Israeli settlers. Another son is in jail for killing 2 Israeli soldiers the day after his brother died. And her youngest son is being held without charge.

Arab Marwan Barghouti: Muluvi!

Adam Harvey: Her husband's cousin, Fakri, spent 34 years in prison for killing an Israeli soldier.

Marwan Barghouti: واللي بدوش يناضلوا، بدوش يبقى فيه دفع ثمن من أجل وطن وشعب وأطفالنا وشيخنا معناه تقول نبقى إحنا لا نستحق الحياة.

Adam Harvey: أم أصف says the family are regular targets of Israeli forces.

Suheir Barghouti: للعائلة كدار أبو عاصف يعني إذا بيجيوا بيعتكلوا أي حدا في البلد لازم يزوروني ويكسروا في بيتي. وخربوا في بيتي بدون ما أنا أبقى عامل إشي وبدون ما يكون عندي إشي يعني حتى لما بدهم إشي يأخذوني بيجوا بعبروا بخربوا الدار وبكسروا.

Adam Harvey: She was held without charge. It's called administrative detention and was one of 240 prisoners released during the week-long ceasefire with Israel.

Suheir Barghouti: لما طلعتش كان ست شهور وراح جاني تجديد ست شهور يعني الفضل لله تعالى وست ثم المقاومة اللي هم أطلعوا.

Adam Harvey: Many of those freed were of minor political value. They include 107 teenagers like 17-year-old Ahmed Newman Abu Naim, arrested for throwing stones. Stones and an incendiary device. He was due to be released next month.

Suheir Barghouti: انبساطت يعني شو فرحة يعني شيء يفهم.

Marwan Barghouti: آه، بس في نفس الوقت أنا يعني ما صدقتش بلا ما طلعت للسجن.

Adam Harvey: The prisoner exchange has played well in the West Bank and here in East Jerusalem, and it means a lot to the families of those who have been freed. But it is not the main game. To release the soldiers it holds hostage, Hamas. We hope that the international community will push Israel to free those who are serving longer jail terms, like militants and political leaders. Among those who could be released, Um Asef's 2 sons and Marwan Barghouti, a distant relative who many, including some Israelis, want as the next Palestinian president.

Marwan Barghouti: This is where Marwan Barghouti is fighting for peace.

Adam Harvey: Despite the toll of this conflict on her family, She believes resistance is the only path forward.

Suheir Barghouti: The Israeliين ما بيفهموا إلا لغة القوة، ما بيفهموا إلا لغة الدم. دائماً ناقضين للعهود، دائماً من عزمان الأنبياء وعجز الأنبياء. فهم هذه اللغة اللي هم بيفهموها. يعني إذا ما لاكوا حدا يقاومهم، ما يعني ما. مش راح يدشرون.

Adam Harvey: She supports the October 7 attacks and does not believe that Hamas intended to kill women and children. Around 800 civilians were killed on October 7, including hundreds of women and scores of children. Survivors have reported witnessing rape and torture. The green flags on display during her release are Hamas banners. Her husband Omar, who died in 2021, was a Hamas leader in the West Bank.

Suheir Barghouti: شافش شيء من جاهل بيك فلا ومع ذلك لكونها الشباب وجزاهم الله خيراً.

Adam Harvey: الحمد لله.

Suheir Barghouti: أنا بعرف إنه أحد فعتماً. إن شاء الله لا إن شاء الله لا إن شاء الله.

Adam Harvey: She says an Israeli officer told her she would be rearrested if she gave interviews after her release.

Suheir Barghouti: ولما يهدد في كل راي أنت طلعت في الصفقة، بس إذا بيجي حدا يستكب لك، إذا بشوف حدا غنى، إذا بشوف إنه مثلا ارتفع علم، إذا بشوف إنه أنت خليت حالك بطلي وحشيتي على الإعلام، راح أجيبك.

Adam Harvey: So why are you doing this?

Suheir Barghouti: هو برضو إحنا يعني رسالتنا لازم توصل للعالم، لازم نوصل معاناتنا. صحي راح تبكي على حسابنا إحنا وراح ندفع الثمن إحنا بس إحنا بدنا العالم يشوف إحنا شوف نعاني إحنا الضحية مش هم هم دائما بوروا العالم للأسف إنه إعلامنا ضعيف إعلامهم بسوّك للعالم جميعه إنه هم الضحية مع إنه إحنا اللي مات لين هو أم أسف says she wants to live in Peace, but her dream is not a two-state solution with a separate Palestine and Israel. والله بترب عليه إذا بقول لك إنه دولتي يا عمي إحنا إذا شغلنا فلسطين يروحوا وين ما يروحوا إذا شغلنا فلسطين بدنا شغل فلسطين إحنا بدنا أرضنا ومن مترح ما أجو اللي أجمل العراق يرجع العراق واللي أجمل الشيام يرجع الشام واللي أجا من أمريكا يروح على أمريكا واللي بس هذه مش مش إلهم هان هان مش إلهم. as for the Israelis who were born here والله هذا مش ذنبنا اللي ولدوا هان في نفس الوقت هم قاعدين بدرس فيهم كيف يكتل العرب بتلاقي الصغير أكثر من الكبير بيطلع