Marwan Barghouti - Democracy Now Fugitive Interview (December 2001)

Speaker 1: As the controversy over Israel's refusal to allow Yasser Arafat to make his annual pilgrimage to Bethlehem continues to simmer, the Palestinian leader can look to some sympathy from home, but not much. Just this weekend, Palestinian unity came close to dissolving as clashes between Yasser Arafat's police and Palestinian civilians left six dead, dozens injured. The violence was sparked by Arafat's attempt to satisfy Israeli and U.S. demands that he clamp down on organization's that advocate terrorism. It was the worst case of Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence since 1994, and it sparked fears of civil war. Meanwhile, Azarafat's legitimacy continues to falter. The popularity of Marwan Barghouti, another Fatah veteran, continues to rise. Known as the leader of the Intifada, Barghouti has emerged as a key figure during the last 15 months of uprising. He's a vocal opponent of the Israeli occupation and critic of the Palestinian Authority, a combination that has earned him widespread respect among Palestinians. Some believe if Arafat should fall or choose to step down, Barghouti would be the successor. Marwan Barghouti is a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council and leader of Fatah's military wing. He was interviewed by free speech radio news reporter Rafael Kraft in early December. They met at an undisclosed location in the West Bank because Barghouti is in hiding from Israeli authorities. Over the summer, he narrowly escaped several assassination attempts by Israeli defense forces, and in early December, his house was stormed by Israeli soldiers. The raid came in apparent retaliation for an attack on a bus of Jewish settlers just days before. So now we go to Marwan Barghouti, Secretary General of Fatah, central figure in the Second Intifada, being interviewed by Raphael Kraft.

Raphael Krafft: The bus attack on last Wednesday was maybe the start of a new era for the Palestinian resistance to concentrate its attacks into the occupied territories. It has been interpreted by Israeli as an attack inside Israel, which is a negation of occupation. How will the resistance keep on going this way, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

Marwan Barghouti: Yeah, from the first day, our strategy in Fatah and the Tanzim to concentrate our struggle in the occupied territories. And we call everybody to prevent any kind of attacks inside Israel. We do believe it's preferable to continue the struggle in the occupied territories and to targeting the Israeli occupation, including the settlers. I think this is the strategy. And I hope that Hamas and Islamic Jihad and all the groups will concentrate their struggle against occupation here. But when the Israelis continue in their massacres, assassinations, destroying the Palestinian headquarters, and et cetera, I think this was the result of that lead Hamas and others to attack the Israelis inside Israel.

Raphael Krafft: So you believe that in the near future, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are going to strike again inside Israel?

Marwan Barghouti: No, I hope they will not do that. I hope that they will concentrate the struggle and the attacks against the Israeli occupation inside the Kuwait territories. But I think it's very difficult to keep this strategy when the Israelis are continue to bombing the Palestinian cities under the Palestinian Authority control. Because the Israelis should respect our areas. And if they are entering everywhere, bomb everywhere, killing the civilians, children, women, and et cetera, I think this will lead for more Palestinian reactions. And when this criminal prime minister in Israel, Sharon, when he decided to assassinate or liquidate any leader, he decided how many Israelis will be killed in the same time.

Raphael Krafft: Since the start of the Intifada, the Palestinian resistance has shown a sort of policy of restraint in its fight during the Bethlehem occupation by not using heavier weapons like RPG7. Do you believe that it is time for the Palestinian resistance to go forward and escalate?

Marwan Barghouti: You know that we should not go to fight the Israelis in their power points. We should prevent their power. And we should always find a way how to fight them, how to defeat them in other places. And I think this should be the main strategy for the Palestinian people. And I think that always the resistance will continue. There is an occupation. It will continue. Never they can achieve security by force, by assassinations, by closure, by these things. So I do believe that the resistance will continue. The Palestinians are patient enough. And they know very well that this is long fighting. It's not for one month or two months or one year or two years. It will take a long time, so they should be patient and keep their power.

Raphael Krafft: What is the state of the relationship between Fatah, DFLP and the Islamic Jihad and Hamas on the field?

Marwan Barghouti: We are working together and we have coordination and cooperation in the political fields, in the activities of the Intifada. There is no any kind of coordination in military activities. Some cases, individual cases, local relations or coordination in some places and all over the West Bank and Gaza. But in central level, there is no any kind of this coordination in military activities because it's very difficult. It's impossible. It's impossible for anybody to do that.

Raphael Krafft: This new tactic Israel is putting forward by doing lightning incursions, arresting people, killing people in arms, does it weaken? In which way does it weaken the resistance? In which way is the resistance touched by that?

Marwan Barghouti: Of course, it has its effect on the people and on the Palestinian people, on the Palestinian Intifada and the resistance. and on the Palestinians in general. You know that during every day, every night, the Israelis bombs by aircrafts, by batches, by tanks, and they arrest a lot of people, killing, assassinations, demolish houses, cut uprooting trees and the closure, and et cetera. And the tanks are not far more than 200 meters from Mr. Arafat's office. And they are trying to pressure. But I do believe that this will not broke the Palestinian intifada or Palestinian resistance. Resistance will continue. And the Israelis, by this way, criminal way, they will lead the Palestinians for strong and more reactions against the Israelis. We are trying to give chance for the international efforts to be succeeded, to stop this comprehensive war. But all the international and European, regional, Arab efforts to stop Sharon war failed till now.

Raphael Krafft: The attack on the bus killed settlers. They are illegal here in the occupied territories, but still they are civilians and international law forbids the killing of civilians.

Marwan Barghouti: They are not civilians. The settlers are not civilians. They are part of the Israeli occupation. They are armed people. Their existence here is illegal. This is the point. Not why you are fighting against them. The question, why are they higher? Why they confiscate the land and build their settlements by force, by tanks, by weapons, by killing the people. So I think it's targeting the settlers. It's legitimate. And I think who are responsible of these victims between if they are women or children are the criminal Sharon. And these people should be in Tel Aviv, in Israel. Why they are here? What they are doing here? They are occupation.

Raphael Krafft: You know that the mediatic war is much more favorable to Israel and the bus attack of Wednesday night has been announced by all the medias like an attack against civilian in Israel. Don't you? I know. I know it's not. I know it's not. But taking this in consideration, don't you believe that targets should be focused on Israeli soldiers?

Marwan Barghouti: I think everything is legitimate against the Israelis in every centimeter in the occupied territories, in 67 borders. It has to be very clear. All the Israelis are legal targets in the occupied territories. All the Israelis. Because they are not hostess. They are not coming as hostess for the Palestinians. They are not invited. They are coming by tanks, as settlers, as criminals. And their existence here is illegal. And we have the right to fight against the occupation, including the settlers. The settlers are armed people. All of them are armed people. And a lot of Palestinians were killed by the Israeli settlers. And you cannot distinguish between the Israeli soldiers and the settlers. They are the same. They are in the same settlement. It became like military camps and et cetera. And the soldiers are living there. In a day they are working. And at night they are working as soldiers and etc. And I think, of course, we don't like to see any children, any women to be killed, any people. And I would like to reach for peace without any killing, without this fighting, without these victims, without a bloodshed from the two sides. And we worked well during seven years ago. to enhance, to encourage the peace between the two sides. I was one of the prominent people who lead the Palestinian groups for dialogue with the Israelis, intellectuals, professors, academics, members of Knesset, and parliamentarians, politicians, everybody. We were trying. But what happened during the 70s? They toyed the Palestinians. They played with the Palestinians. They loved the Palestinian people. They doubled the number of the settlement in Jerusalem. I know about that. What do you think about Mr. Yasser Arafat's reaction condemning the bus attack last Wednesday? I can understand the position of Mr. Arafat, and I don't accept. I think it's legal to attack all the Israelis here in the West Bank and Gaza, including East Jerusalem. And I hope that everybody will prevent any attacks inside Israel, because the borders of the Palestinian state, it's the 67 borders. And if the Israeli killing everybody in Ramallah, in everywhere, why should we respect them?

Raphael Krafft: Well, do you, how would I say, what is your relationship today with Mr. Arafat? The resistance in the West Bank is quite weak at the moment.

Marwan Barghouti: Good relation. And I met with him every night, every day. And I think we should support him. And his decisions to help him, the situation are very critical. And we are in a very critical time in these days. They are trying to kill him. They are trying to destroy him by political destroying and his authority and etc. So we call all the Palestinian political factions to give support for Mr. Rafa.

Raphael Krafft: Don't you think that this game Yasser Arafat has been playing or being forced to play in between the international public opinion, in between the Israeli public opinion and the Palestinian public opinion by condemning such attacks has weakened the resistance?

Marwan Barghouti: I think it has its effect, of course, but we can understand how much the situation is very critical. And we know how much the situation is very difficult. But I do believe we will pass these difficulties, like what did during 15 months, and the Israelis will discover that they are, by these massacres, doing in Salfit, in Beit Hanoun, in everywhere, in the West Bank and Gaza, there will be high price for their crimes.

Speaker 1: And you've been listening to Marwan Barghouti, Secretary General of Fatah, central figure in the Second Intifada. He was interviewed by free speech radio news correspondent Raphael Kraft, who reports from the occupied territories. He was interviewed in hiding. in the occupied territories, an undisclosed location in the West Bank because Barghouti narrowly escaped several assassination attempts. And in early December, his house was stormed by Israeli soldiers.