Leila Khaled Mixtape

Leila Khaled: I can say that because the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine says or believes that not only weapons are the way to liberate our country, we have— we believe that thoughts, or the socialist thoughts, scientific socialist theory exactly is the way for the liberation of Palestine, because we think that it's not only something general to imagine or the war itself, or the liberation war. We say, or we believe, that the popular liberation war is the only way to Palestine. So I think it's something ideal for me to have the honor to join such a party— Wow. —who holds thoughts and works on that. The Popular Front holds Marxist theory, which I believe that it's a revolutionary theory, by which we can go on liberating our country the way that all the world can understand very well. If we know how to work on it and to translate it by working about it.

Speaker 3: Now, there are many branches of socialism and many parties that call themselves Marxist, and some call themselves Marxist-Leninist. Does your movement identify with the party in Russia or in China, or does it have its own independent approach to Marxist-Leninism?

Leila Khaled: We have our own thinking about this, because we don't think that just importing a theory is the way to— or how to liberate the country.

Speaker 4: No.

Leila Khaled: No. We just have this theory as a revolutionary theory that we can imply on our— In our cause. So we can learn from this theory how to work on the way we want to liberate our country. And it's not because it has happened in Russia or in China or in Cuba.

Speaker 3: Right.

Leila Khaled: We just learn from these countries things that we can get benefit from it in our war, but it's not We don't want to just to import it only and put it down here and say we want to liberate our country as what happened in Russia or what happened in China. Not at all.

Speaker 3: You've drawn from various Marxist-Leninist movements what you consider that is applicable and beneficial—

Leila Khaled: Yes.

Speaker 3: —for your liberation and for the kind of society you want to build. In Palestine?

Leila Khaled: Yes.

Speaker 3: But you see some things, for instance, in the Cuban experience that are good examples, but you don't— you're not dogmatically saying that we're following the pattern of China or Cuba or anything. You're just evolving your own ideas.

Leila Khaled: Yes, yes. We develop all the The thoughts that we have in mind. And we get from the— I mean, what happened in Cuba, we don't just copy revolutions from here or from there. We just take what's good for us, and we can— And you can adapt it. Go on doing it. That's all.

Speaker 3: And you have, shall we say, comradely relations with all other movements like your own in Cuba and so forth?

Leila Khaled: Up till now, I think we have just a little.

Speaker 3: You've been too busy with your own liberation.

Leila Khaled: Yes. But after all, we think that Our movement or our war here, our revolution, is a part of the world revolution, the Third World revolution, I mean, and not it's a part only. No, it's a revolution by itself, cut off or all that, or— Isolated. Isolated from the liberation movements of the world. In the world. We are a part of it. So we are going to build bridges with other movements in the world. Now I'm a PFLP Politburo member, and I'm responsible for the file of— or the committee of refugees and refugees. The right of return, which means that we have a program and a plan to generalize and to mobilize our people with the right of return, because now and since years, the Israelis are trying to end The idea of the right for return, and it's neglecting and ignoring the right of return to the Palestinians, to their homelands. That's why this is an important file that I'm dealing with, and I'm responsible for it in the FLP. OK.

Speaker 7: In a recently leaked PLO document, it shows that in December 2009, Mahmoud Abbas was ready to concede the right of return by allowing only 150,000 Palestinians to return over a 10-year period, leaving the remainder to rot in refugee camps or as unwelcome guests in neighboring Arab states. What were your thoughts on this?

Leila Khaled: No one can prevent the right of the people, even though it is Mahmoud Abbas or or any other official Palestinian, they cannot change the right of return with their own vision. There is a big opposition against that. Nowadays, it's— the people are, whether in diaspora or in the West Bank and Gaza, are against such declarations and against such attitudes. Because the right of return is a personal, it's a popular, it's a legal right for human beings like the Palestinians who were driven by force from their homelands. And mind you, Resolution 194 in the United Nations calls upon— calls Israel to abide by the international law. That which says, this resolution, that Israel will be accepted as a member in the United Nations on condition that the Palestinians go back to their homelands and to their villages and to their properties, that they were driven out by force. So, any official cannot or has no right to change the right to return in his vision that some of the Palestinians could go back to Palestine. And 2 days ago, we heard Salam Fayyad, who is what? The head of the Palestinian Authority. You— it's said it's the prime minister, because we don't have a sovereignty over our land to have prime ministers or government or whatever it is. So there's a big discussion now among the factions, among the people and their representatives in the PLO or everywhere, that They have no right to say that the right for return to the Palestinians is no more a realistic issue. And as long as the struggle is continuing and this conflict is continuing, it means the key for the solution is the right for return. So it's not the right—

Speaker 8: Right of return.

Leila Khaled: to change this issue and this right according to their vision.

Speaker 7: In your book, My People Shall Live, you said that violent acts were intended to blow the wax out of the ears of deaf Western liberals. The plane hijacking and other violent tactics certainly got world attention focused on the Palestinian cause. But would you agree that the wax is still firmly in the ears of Western liberals when it comes to Palestinian rights?

Leila Khaled: I think that now there is no wax. They hear it, but still they don't act according to what they hear. The problem is not the hearing. It's the problem of to be convinced. That the Palestinians have the right to have their own independent state, with Jerusalem its capital. And the Palestinians are under occupation. The Palestinians are still refugees in their country and in diaspora.

Speaker 8: So it needs more and more struggle to convince Not only— not the governments, because we know that the governments are biased towards Israel, while we are depending on the popular movement in different countries, especially in the West. And we have noticed the escalation of the calls for boycotting Israel. And diverse. So, what do the West need more than a resolution in the High Court of Justice in La Haye that the apartheid wall that Israel built in Palestine is illegal and the settlements are illegal? What do they need more? And that the settlements are illegal. More, as long as they have seen that Israel used all kinds of weapons of mass destruction in Gaza lately, to be convinced that the Palestinians need their freedom, they need their sovereignty over their land, they need the support —for their struggle, because our struggle is a legal struggle, and it's a duty to our people and to us to struggle against occupation, which is the most inhuman action against peoples. That's why I'm saying— It's not the wax in the ears of the West, but it is that they are not convinced that they have to change their idea. Anyhow, we depend on people, on campaigns of solidarity from different people, including parliamentarians and ordinary people.

Leila Khaled: And you're saying that the U.S.

Speaker 8: organizations, popular or grassroots, who are still calling for the support of the Palestinians. PFLP is part of PLO. And PLO is the sole representative of the Palestinians and the legitimate representative of the Palestinians. Now, this is the institution where we can, as an opposition, to struggle for the change of the attitude of Fatah as the leadership of PLO now. This is from one side. From the other side, we have connections with Hamas. And jihad, because these are part of the components of our society and organizations from our society. And we don't say that we don't have anything to do with them or don't have relations with them. We have relations with all factions. Because we are in a stage, the liberation stage, and the rules that govern or that give us the right to have relations with all factions, including the Islamic factions— this because the main contradiction is with the Israeli occupation and not with our— the components of our society. That's why we are still in PLO, because we are the founders of PLO, although we are not the main leadership of the PLO. But still we are opposing the Oslo Accords. We are opposing the division that has taken place through using arms between Hamas and Fatah. We condemned using arms, because since the beginning of the revolution, after 1967, we have reached to an agreement that any contradictions among the factions cannot be solved except by dialogue and by discussions, and not by arms, arms only used against the enemy. That's why we are in a place where we are on the same distance between the 2 factions, between Fatah and Hamas.

Leila Khaled: But at the same time, we have many common things.

Speaker 8: that we can agree upon— for example, the settlements, the wall, prisoners issues, issues dealing with the Israeli policy— although we are against negotiations. And lately we were, with others, against the indirect negotiations, according to the American suggestion to have indirect negotiations without stopping the settlements. And we succeeded to do that, that even Abbas couldn't accept the— he accepted at the beginning, but he stopped because of the opposition. We are leading that opposition, as the FLP.

Leila Khaled: Thank you.

Speaker 7: Why, when Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas have consistently sold out the Palestinian cause to Israeli imperialist demands, do they still seemingly have popular support?

Speaker 8: I think that Mahmoud Abbas is still having support, but not to the extent to sell the Palestinian cause. We still hear criticism, high criticism now, from different factions and from different personalities, social or from unions, criticizing the attitude of Abbas, which means that he is losing his popularity since he was elected as the president. That's why I think that if he goes on with his policy towards negotiations, I think he will lose a lot. And Fatah? Of course, he is the chief of Fatah. And Fatah will lose first from its members, from the bases of Fatah, because the bases of Fatah up till now, they are with the resistance, are not against it. But because of the situation in the West Bank between the Israelis and the security apparatus of Abbas, people reached to a point where they cannot do what they want to do, because either they will be arrested by the Palestinian apparatus or by the Israelis. Which means that they are squeezing even the people to express their attitude. But when it came to settlements or building— destroying the houses in Jerusalem, you have— we have witnessed that people were going out declaring their— Their opposition. Attitude in Hebron, in Jerusalem, in Nablus, in different cities of the West Bank, condemning the Israeli steps towards changing Jerusalem, which means that the people contain A lot of anger against this policy. And this made Abbas retreat from accepting the indirect negotiations with Israel.

Leila Khaled: Comrades and friends, it's my pleasure to address you at an event Dedicated for the prisoners. It's the 17th of April. When we speak about them, this means we are speaking about a deep and open wound, which did not heal since the day of our Nakba in 1948. This wound is a collective one. It's one of the most painful wounds. Thank you. For years and years, Palestinians were and are still suffering from being haunted by the Israelis and by the Israeli occupant, which caused this unbearable pain to every Palestinian family. This— This is because I told you that it is a people's movement. Palestinians know very well that by resisting Israeli occupation, we'll pay a high price for which we are— for their resistance, one of which we are discussing, the issue of prisoners. Comrades and friends, since 1967, Israel put 1 million Palestinians in jails, which lack the simplest human conditions. In spite of all the calls to release them or to better the conditions of the jails, yet Israel never pay attention to the calls and struggles of the Palestinians. the Palestinian— the prisoners themselves. You know very well that prisoners went to hunger strikes to face their prosecutors. The Israeli occupant drew fascist rules against the prisoners, such as the administrative rule, by which people are put in jails with no excuse. And the prisoner is expected to stay also for years with no trial. Israel also drew another rule since the First Intifada in 1987, by which children are imprisoned just because they use stones against the army. Children stay in prison until they are 18 years to be taken to the court. Some of them are deported from their homes and are not allowed to go to school for a number of years. These rules aim to break the will of the Palestinians, but never, ever they got it, due to their strength in facing their jailers. Now, in Israeli jails, There are more than 5,000 prisoners, among them 129 women, 237 children, besides men from different ages. Torture is always waiting a prisoner, from the minute he or she are arrested, without telling you about the means.

Speaker 8: Thank you.

Leila Khaled: of torture during the period of interrogation, I can tell you that Israeli torture is a new version of the Nazis' torture. Palestinian women are also tortured the same way. Some women are mothers. Some gave birth to their children in prison. According to the inhuman rules, children who are born in prison should stay and spend 2 years in prison according to their law. Then the child is released without their mother. You can imagine what will happen to a child of 2 years to face the new world. After his release, some prisoners died under torture. As for the sentences, you can never hear any sentence in in history more than for life. One time, in four prisoners. For their charges. But in Israel, it's different. A prisoner can be charged for 5 times a sentence for life, plus 100 years. I remember a woman, when the judge in the court told her— I mean, The sentence. It was about 4,250 years. And this young woman, she was about 22 years old, she was laughing. And the judge said, more 2 years, because you are humiliating the court. You are laughing. Why? She said, because— because I'm— I don't think that you will be leaving. Right. All these years to see me implementing your rule or your sentence. This is a challenging attitude. Although all Palestinians now, those 1 million and their families, know very well what is waiting for them in prison or at the court, yet many mothers, were shouting at the court when they hear the sentence for their children or for their relatives, and saying, it's an honor that the Israelis are sentencing our sons for life. It is, for us, an honor. This shows not only the pain, but also the will to resist, even in prisons. Comrades and friends, prisons for a Palestinian is a cadre academy, in spite of the horrors inflicted by the jailers. I call upon you to escalate campaigns in your country. in groceries and through all means of social media, to expose the apartheid state of Israel and its policy against our heroes in jails. Allow me to send with you warm greetings to all prisoners in Israeli jails, who represent the solid and honorable people who give us lessons. —of bravery and strong will in the struggle to liberate our homeland, Palestine, from the vicious and neo-Nazis who are occupying Palestine. They are designers. Please allow me to send a warm greeting to my leader, Ahmed Sa'adat, with a promise that he and all prisoners Will be released sooner or later by the means that Israel understands. Thank you for listening. And we will meet again on the way to Palestine.

Speaker 9: Palestinian resistance icon Leila Khaled is in South Africa. In 1969, Khaled made history by becoming the first woman to hijack an airplane. She was only 25 years old at the time. She was later released in a prisoner exchange deal. Khaled is a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and currently lives in Amman, Jordan. She will be delivering several lectures and will be the guest of honor at a Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions South Africa— that's BDS— dinner, where she'll be part of a special fundraising effort in aid of Palestine. A lot of controversy surrounded the announcement of Khaled's planned Groups like the South African Jewish Board of Deputies labeled her a terrorist who's not welcome here in our country. But Khalid has been officially welcomed in the country by the government and joins us now live in our Port Elizabeth studio this morning.

Speaker 4: A very good morning to you, ma'am. Thank you for joining us.

Leila Khaled: Thank you.

Speaker 4: It's not the first visit. You visited South Africa before. You've met with President Obama. You met with Nelson Mandela when you were here in South Africa. What do you make of the controversy that now surrounds your visit to South Africa?

Leila Khaled: You know, in every event, some people dislike it. But we have to see whether this is the majority or the minority. I have been welcomed by the —by the government, by parliamentarians. This means that this visit is on the right track. And it helps a lot our comrades, our friends, to go for their goals of the BDS and extending solidarity to the Palestinian people. Right. And those minorities, sometimes they find that they are isolated in the society, in general. So, let them speak. And we are in a country who has freedom of speech to anyone. But a time will come when they will discover that we are on the right track. And they are on the wrong track.

Speaker 4: Let's move on to your visit to South Africa. Just tell us a little bit about your itinerary, what you'll be doing over the next week or so.

Leila Khaled: I'll be going to Durban, to Cape Town, to help BDS, promote BDS, and Up till now, the visit is successful, because more people are joining and want to help through this movement and through other organizations or committees expressing their solidarity to the Palestinians. We know very well that The people in South Africa feel with those people who are still living under oppression, under occupation, like the Palestinian people, and they extend their hands to help and to support. So, it's not weird that I'm on a visit for the help of my people through BDS. That's why I'm calling every anybody, to join this peaceful movement, because it's not the first time in history that BDS campaigns are used to face the oppressors anywhere in the world. But I have to remind that during the apartheid system in South Africa, the whole world, Boycotted and isolated that hideous regime. And it helped the struggle of the people of South Africa to gain their independence and to end that regime. And it ended. This experience has been experienced by the world, and according to the pressure of the people in all continents, The governments changed their minds, finally, and they isolated that regime, except for Israel and the United States.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Leila Khaled: But at the end of the day, and after a long way to freedom, as Nelson Mandela said, the people of South Africa now is living in dignity, with— —democracy and extending their support to those who suffer— are suffering now, like they suffered before, because only those who suffer feel with each other.

Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you a little bit to give us the historical context of the relationship between Tell us about South Africa and Palestine, the battles fought and won together in the past, and maybe tell us about the relationship today.

Leila Khaled: The relation was because we, both people, were facing apartheid. You end apartheid in South Africa, but we didn't up 'til now. And it's not only apartheid. system, but also occupation and keeping the refugees— refugees outside of their homeland, and neglecting— I mean, Israel neglecting the rights of the Palestinians to be back to their homelands and villages, according to the United Nations Resolution 194, which calls Israel to accept the return of the Palestinians, who were driven out by force in 1948, and also according to the all resolutions to the Palestinian cause taken in the United Nations. But Israel denies all these resolutions, because it considers itself upon the international And this, by itself, the people of South Africa, their organizations—ANC and unions, COSATU, now youth organizations, women organizations—we had this relation before, but now it's more deep and it's going on. And we every. In every excursion Israel does against our people, like what happened through the 5— past 5, 6 years, that Israel launched war against Gaza. And the last one, last year, was devastating, and it was a holocaust. So, the people— The people of South Africa are aware of the injustice that Israel is doing for us and the violations and the killing and this brutal policy against the Palestinians. They feel it, because they know it. And I'm happy that I'm seeing the new generation is very enthusiastic, and they create new new methods for showing and extending solidarity to the Palestinian people.

Speaker 4: I want to take you back to the siege on Gaza last year. We have a relief organization in South Africa called The Gift of the Givers. They worked in Gaza, and they reported some terrible crimes against humanity that were reported. I've got the founder of The Gift of the Givers, who I spoke to recently. I just want you to look at a little piece of the interview and then get your reaction to what he said as to what happened in Gaza.

Leila Khaled: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11: One lady that I work with has been to South Africa. She is doing the distribution for me on my behalf. In the last week, I told her, Hala, how's it going with the distribution? She said the first few days were fine, but now it's very difficult. I said, why? She said, Khadijah, went around to give out food to the people, as you asked. I said, who is Khadijah? She said, Khadijah works with us. So I said, what happened? She said she had a big yellow shirt on, big bright lights saying humanitarian worker. She went in an ambulance. She was giving out food, and Israel struck the ambulance directly. So I said, what happened to Khadijah? She said, she's dead. So she said, like this, so many of our workers have been targeted. So it becomes very complicated. We even said, as a background— We will use the U.N. school to put up a field hospital inside the U.N. school. How many schools have been targeted?

Speaker 4: The U.N.

Speaker 9: school has been bombed overnight, it seems.

Speaker 11: There's no security.

Speaker 9: It seems.

Speaker 11: And the hospital, Al-Shifa— we had worked there before— that thing got hit. So where do you put the people?

Speaker 4: There you have the founder of The Gift of the Givers talking about aid workers being targeted and shot and bombed, children, schools, women being targeted. Are these crimes against humanity? And do you expect international organizations, like the ICC, like the U.N., to step in and do something about this?

Leila Khaled: You know, we have been to the United Nations last month, asking the whole world to put an end to this occupation. Occupation. But the answer was no, because there is the United States waiting to put the veto. This time they voted no, because they knew that we cannot get a resolution. Anyhow, what this organization working in Gaza— this is not the first time we know I know about it. I have met some of its members here and there. In Lebanon, in 2006, when the war broke out, they were there also. And this shows the spirit and the understanding of the people of South Africa, that they go directly to the— where there is danger, even, they go there, and they extend give help to the people. Now, these war crimes, up 'til now, Israel hasn't been punished. That's why when we call for BDS as a means to follow up, to put sanctions, and then to take them to the courts, international courts— now, PLO, We also signed the Declaration of Rome, which is including the ICC, and we are going there to charge Israel internationally. And I think now there is a big support for this step from our people and from our friends all over the world. We will wait and see. Now the Zionists are working, and the imperialists also, especially the Americans, are working to stop ICC from being— maybe they are thinking that to stop its work. Mm-hmm. They would say— make excuses that it has no work after what happened, and that's it, let's stop this issue. But we insist that we will take those war criminals to justice. This is one of the means of facing this hideous apartheid state in our country.

Speaker 4: Last week at the African Union summit, African Union leaders made a resolution that they would step out of the International Criminal Court, because they feel African leaders are the only ones being targeted by this court. How do you view this? And how do you view the decision by the African Union to think about going this route?

Leila Khaled: I think this is— some countries are pressured by the United States to take this step. And then they will move another step to go for other I would like other countries to take the same attitude. I think it's very dangerous to stop a court where people were under oppression. They were killed, massacres, like what happened in Rwanda, for example, and what happened in Kosovo, the same. And they were taken to ISIS. And they were taken to ISIS. But we know that it's more for Africa. But it doesn't mean that the African governments should accept that anyone who makes war crimes shouldn't be punished. I don't agree with it, but I think that they have their reasons for it. I understand it, but I don't accept it.

Speaker 4: I want to come back to your arrival here in South Africa now. On Friday morning, you met with struggle stalwart Ahmed Kathrada. And over the years, you've had wonderful relations with other icons, like Nelson Mandela. Can you tell us about the welcome you received and maybe give us a little insight into your relationship with Nelson Mandela?

Leila Khaled: You know, anyone in this world considered Nelson Mandela as his own hero, because he is the hero of the struggle against apartheid. And Nelson Mandela did not mean that he is only a freedom fighter for his people. But for all peoples of the world who are suffering from oppression, in our— with our people, they all know his saying, that the freedom of South Africa will be incomplete until the Palestinians get their freedom. This is a vision, a political vision, to us.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Leila Khaled: It meant a lot. It was a message to the people of South Africa that you have to extend your solidarity in different means for those people who are still suffering under occupation. That's why we look— it was very sad for us to lose such a hero, such an icon, that we all read His book about The Long Way to Freedom. This gave us more strength that those people who were suffering from apartheid, they struggled, sacrificed and went to jails for years and years. Now we have prisoners in Israeli jails now passing 33 years. 33 years. They exceeded what the apartheid regime did in South Africa— I mean, the Israelis, putting people in jail the same way. But with learning from this struggle of the people of South Africa gave us hope and the will and the strength. And still the relation is going on. And we have good ties with different groups, including the government also. Mm-hmm. That we are still looking forward for more higher steps from South Africa. I think if Nelson Mandela was still alive or is still the president, he would have taken steps higher than just BDS on the— Yeah. On the popular level, I think he will ask the government to cut ties on the diplomatic level. And like Venezuela, for example, and Bolivia, they sent the ambassadors, the Israeli ambassadors, and they cut diplomatic ties. Right. —on the economical level. And this is the practical attitude. I mean, to— Right. —move the attitude from its political level to its practical level. And I think one day we'll hear that the government in South Africa will do that. We expect it.

Speaker 4: This week—

Leila Khaled: And for— yeah.

Speaker 4: This week, on Wednesday, the 11th of February, South Africa will celebrate 25 years when Nelson Mandela was released from prison on that day. Can you tell us, where were you on that day, when you heard— when he was released? And maybe tell us the emotions that you experienced on that day.

Leila Khaled: You know, when I was living in Cape Town, I was in my house. In Syria at that time—

Speaker 8: sorry—

Leila Khaled: we were celebrating his release also, because, as I told you, we considered Nelson Mandela is for all of us and for peace lovers, for those who are still struggling, for those who are still suffering. You go to our office. In our offices, everywhere, you see photos of Nelson Mandela on the walls of our offices. It shows the— that a prison cannot be closed forever on prisoners. Our prisoners in Israeli jails, they were They were singing, dancing in their cells and telling the Israelis, your end is the same as the end of the apartheid. They told them this. And they were put in isolation, those who celebrated the release of Nelson Mandela. I'm sure that every prisoner in Israeli jail look upon this —experience, that in spite of the long terms that they spend in— they are spending in jails, that, look what happened. They were isolated in Robben Island.

Speaker 12: Yeah.

Leila Khaled: And yet they were released, and they were victorious when they went out from prison. So, this gives also our prisoners— Mm-hmm. —who are sentenced for— not only for life for once, for life 4 times, plus 100 years. Imagine. Now, this— they want to, of course, to— nobody will live for hundreds of years. But this gave those prisoners, not only in Israeli jails, but in other jails in the world, for political activists, that one day they will break the doors of the jails, with the help of their people, and be free.

Speaker 4: A final question, ma'am. What would you consider as the minimum conditions for a negotiated settlement in Palestine?

Leila Khaled: Let me tell you, apartheid regime in South Africa took 4 years, when they began to negotiate Nelson Mandela in prison. Mm-hmm. But, in parallel, the struggle was escalating, and by the isolation of this— of that regime from the whole world, except for Israel and the United States, they were obliged to go for negotiations and accept the conditions of the ANC at that time. In our case, since 21 years, the Palestinians Our leadership signed Oslo Accords with Israel. Israel denied most of its items and behaved the other way and not committed to any item of this accord. Even Sharon himself, in 2001— and those accords were signed in 1993. Right. 1993, sponsored by the Americans in the White House, where Arafat went and signed that treaty, that agreement. Israel went on with its policy, the same thing, as if nothing happened. They did not release all prisoners, still building settlements, confiscating land. Put more people in prison, assassinating our leaders like Abu Ali Mustafa, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, Rantisi—these names—and still going on the same policy. They did not change, and they denied a Palestinian state and Jerusalem as its capital. They deny our right for right for. They deny our right for self-determination. Now, after 21 years, is it possible to go with this failure again, to go to negotiate? We learned from the negotiations of the Vietnamese when the Americans were bombing all Vietnam. They used to go to Paris to meet the Americans. Right. And they told them the first point on the agenda of the meeting at that time, that the withdrawal of the Americans. When the Americans refused, they said, OK, we meet you on the ground there. And they were obliged to leave. And the Americans fled Vietnam afterwards. This is the way to oblige the occupant, the war criminals, the apartheid regime, to leave. Yes. We have to force the apartheid system to oblige them, and not to beg them, to go to negotiations. We have been doing that, and this is the result now— more excursions against our people. They are putting 1,800,000 people in Gaza in a big jail for 8 years now. And now it's all totally closed upon them. Well, I mean, you know, I think— So, what do you expect from that? I'm not asking you. I'm just saying that don't expect— except one choice for us is resistance, and resistance by all means, including armed struggle. This is the only way that we can liberate our land with. Without that— I will remind the audience to 2 months ago, less than 2 months, a minister called Ziad Abu Rehin was rallying with— going to the land to plant olive trees that the Israelis cut from the Palestinian land, and they killed him in front of all the cameras. What happened? Nobody was charged for it.

Speaker 11: Hmm.

Leila Khaled: We charge these people. It's always with the help of others, and going to the International Criminal Court to charge those people. And negotiations now is not for— we cannot get anything out of it. There are Oslo Accords, and nothing was implemented. Yeah. Because Israel, as I said— just give me one second— considers itself above international law. Daily, they violate international— they don't care about international law, because they are backed by United States and many other countries. That's why we are calling to widen the BDS campaigns. Do you think that God has a real estate agency? God promises to give this— those people or that people. This is a myth.

Speaker 12: We are with Palestinian freedom fighter Leila Khaled, who is here in Manila, Philippines. And we are to talk about her visit to the country. Good morning. Good morning, Leila.

Leila Khaled: Good morning.

Speaker 12: How are you?

Leila Khaled: I'm fine.

Speaker 12: When did you arrive in the Philippines?

Leila Khaled: On the 9th of this month.

Speaker 12: And how have— how are you finding this country so far?

Leila Khaled: You know, I— when I come to any country, I first get acquainted with the people and with the hosts. I'm thankful to them, to Gabriella, who invited me here and gave me the opportunity to meet the people, and also for the ILPS to attend this conference. It's an opportunity for me to know more about Philippines, about the situation here. I found that it's a very Because peaceful country. I'm very happy to be here. there are many similar things in common between us, as Palestinians, and the Philippine people, because we are facing the same enemies. So our struggle is common. And it was a good opportunity to strengthen our relations so that we can continue this struggle, not everyone alone, but also together. Thank you. As long as the imperialists globalize their system, we globalize also our struggle.

Speaker 12: You mentioned attending the 5th General Assembly of the International League of People's Struggle, which was your first. What can you say about the assembly?

Leila Khaled: It's very important. It's an important assembly, that people coming from— or representatives of people from different countries, 37 countries, coming together to coordinate their activities, to exchange experiences. And we got to know more about other people. In other continents, because one cannot, you know, know everything. But in these conferences, we discuss issues that is important for everybody, and also to get knowledge, more detailed knowledge, about other people in different parts of the world. For me, I knew I knew more about the Lumads, whom I didn't know as such. I knew that the indigenous people are deprived from their rights, but I didn't know that they were— there is a genocide war against them, just killing them under different reasons. But in general, I understood. And I met— the people here in Manila who came from Mindanao, because they resemble the same— they are similar in the situation that the Palestinians are, because also Israel launches wars of genocide against the Palestinian people. So, we have things What is in common to struggle for? It's because we face the same enemies. We face Israeli occupation. We face Zionism as a part of imperialist powers. And also, all of us face imperialist powers and the puppets. And here, the government is a puppet for the U.S. imperialists.

Speaker 8: And the U.S.

Leila Khaled: So, we have common things to struggle for.

Speaker 12: The Philippine-Palestine Friendship Association has been formed and formally launched and announced during this visit. What can you say about this development?

Leila Khaled: This is a step forward for the relations between our 2 peoples, and this will This association can make a lot for both of the Filipinos and the Palestinians, because we can make activities supporting the struggles of the Filipino here in our country and here for Palestinians —also people can do things for Palestinians to support their struggle. So, this association we depend on. And they— as I knew that they will form a committee for BDS, which is boycott, divest, sanctions against Israel. And this campaign influences Israel negatively. And it's not just boycott. Yes, a peaceful means, because also the world had an experience to isolate the apartheid regime in South Africa at the time of apartheid. So they can repeat it, but now in a more active way, because the governments at that time in In the '90s, '80s and '90s, they isolated that apartheid regime and helped the people of South Africa in their struggle to end apartheid regime in South Africa. But now we have a state called Israel that have relations with the United States. And they are supporting Israel. Many countries. And when that campaign for the apartheid regime in South Africa, only 2 countries did not isolate or did not boycott the regime. They were the United States and Israel. And, of course, these 2 don't allow any others to do the same thing what happened And in South Africa. But yet we are witnessing that this BA campaign is widening, it's spreading in this— in Americas, in Europe, in different parts of the world. So we are expecting that this association can do the same and getting benefit of the experience of others in BDS.

Speaker 12: It has been a very busy first visit for you. In fact, you already addressed a very big rally the other day. What can you say about the anti-APEC protests, which you participated in?

Leila Khaled: I was surprised for the organization of the protest. All sectors of the society are participating— students, peasants, workers. —humans, women, youth, all sectors. And beyond that, the response of the government, the police were cutting the roads everywhere. It's the same as it is in Palestine. The military, the Israeli military, they have checkpoints. Here, there were walls of police. Right. in the streets, because they know very well the influence of people and the strength of people when they march to the streets to say their attitude in a peaceful means. And I think it was great.

Speaker 12: You complained about not being allowed to be at the front of the—

Leila Khaled: Yeah.

Speaker 12: What can you say?

Leila Khaled: You know, they told me that they are spreading water. I said, it's OK, water. But in Palestine, it's bullets to kill. And this will not kill us. But they said, no, we don't like you to be hurt, or something like that. But anyhow, just being there, it means That we are all in the struggle against any summits that discusses their issues and not the people's issues.

Speaker 12: What do you know about the National Democratic Revolution in the Philippines?

Leila Khaled: Look, we had information, because now it's very easy to get the information. You can Google, you can see, you can read, you can— but before, from the beginning of our revolution in the '60s, we were educated with the struggles of other people, because we believed that we are part of the international movement for liberation or for freedom. Or against oppression or intervention of any countries by the imperialists. So we knew about it, because it was on the news also, even before having the internet and so on. And we had relations through students, Palestinian students who were here studying. —in Filipino universities. So, this relation was there, but not as— it wasn't strengthened and continuous. Now we have to renew this relation with the big movement of Bayan, with Gabriela as a women's party.

Speaker 11: Right.

Leila Khaled: And with all progressive parties in the country, because this is our duty and our right at the same time. So, we can exchange the experience, and at the same time, we can support each other. We extend solidarity to each other. And this will make our people—

Speaker 12: Our people.

Speaker 11: Our two peoples.

Leila Khaled: Continue the struggle, because they are supported by each other. And it's not only the 2 peoples, but also there are other peoples in the world who support the Filipino struggle and the Palestinian struggle, as well. So, this is important, to strengthen such relations. And we promise that delegations from Philippines come to Palestine. And they were coming before to Palestine, supported the hospitals and schools. And now we are going to renew that, that they come to visit us, to see. And also, we— to send delegations to visit Philippines and to see the—

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Leila Khaled: The people in the— for example, the Lumens or other sectors of the society, so we will have a good knowledge about each other.

Speaker 12: Aside from the fact that basically both movements have been launched in the 1960s, it's been more than— nearly 50 years. It's been 50 years already since both were launched. How hopeful are you about achieving victory eventually?

Leila Khaled: Well, I'm a pessimistic person. And at the same time, I have a deep belief in our people and in progressive forces in the world who support us and support our struggle. At the same time, I have a belief that the imperialist powers will not continue to exist, because the people's strength, unity, is much more powerful.

Speaker 12: You mentioned about the creation of the state of Israel. After the Second World War, what can you say about the pivotal role of the Philippine government in the U.N. vote to allow the establishment of Israel?

Leila Khaled: Well, that was in a situation— the circumstances, the Zionists Israel got the benefit out of the Second World War, and the Nazis were defeated, because Israel, as a project, is a colonial one. So the colonialists supported the Zionists, especially the British, who were— they have the mandate over Palestine from the '47 War. And the British supported Israel. First World War, and the foreign minister of Britain at that time, Balfour, he initiated a declaration that to initiate, to create a homeland for the Jews. And that was before the start of the war, 1917. So they worked hard for it, and it happened that The Second World War broke out in the '40s. And when it ended with the defeat of the Germans— I mean, the Nazis, at that time— the Zionists got benefits. And they said it's because of the Holocaust that beheld them. And they migrated to— with the help of the British— to Palestine, but they were Planning to take the land by force. So they launched war against us. And then we were expelled. The majority of the Palestinians were expelled from the country. They brought other people from different parts of the world, just saying that it is— this is the Jewish Promised Land, I mean, from God to them, to have a homeland.

Speaker 8: Right.

Leila Khaled: Why? We didn't make the Holocaust for the Jews. And it's in Europe. It's not in— on the contrary, we received them with water and bread when they came, because we are human beings also. But it seemed that we were ignorant about the conspiracy that beheld us afterwards. And— Right. Up till now, we are out of our country, and we are struggling for a homeland, our homeland, to go back there. They reject it. All the time, Israel ignores and doesn't accept the idea that we have the right to return to our homeland. So, we will continue the struggle, and we will reach one day. Thank you. If not my generation, it would be for my children, my grandchildren. OK. Now, the uprising now is for the young people who went to the streets to protest the Israeli policy, although they are shot dead, many of them. But yet they are still going on in this struggle. It's different from some— means, but still there is the combat there all the day. And the Israelis are hysterical about it now.

Speaker 12: The hysterical reaction of the Zionists, the Israeli government, they are accusing the Palestinian freedom fighters, specifically The PFLP, of human rights violations, of instigating the state of unpeace in your land. Who is committing human rights violations?

Leila Khaled: The occupation by itself. It's violation of human rights. And it is terrorism. So, whatever the Israelis say about us, but they are the source of terror. They are traumatizing our people. They are violating all kinds— all the international law, Geneva Conventions, the Fourth— Right. Geneva Conventions, they violated it. Even Israel did not abide by the international ICJ in La Haye, that the building the apartheid wall is illegal, the settlements are illegal, yet Israel is still going on with its policy. And up till now, Israel hasn't been punished, even by the Chapter 7 of the United Nations. Under that chapter, up till now, Israel considers itself above international law. We, as Palestinians— I represent PFLP, and also I represent all Palestinians, because I'm a member of the PNC. Our revolution or our struggle is a human one. We are defending our humanity. We want to be on our land. And we have the right for return. We have the right for self-determination, as any other people in the world. Still, this occupation is the longest one. And whatever Israel pretends, that we are the ones who are initiating it, initiating violence. Occupation is violence, but by itself. And the fundamental equation or formula: where there is occupation, there is resistance. And this is— and resistance is guaranteed by international law also, because people have the right to resist their occupants who oppress them. So, we don't consider what they say that is applicable to us. It's for them, for the Israelis.

Speaker 12: Being a predominantly Catholic country, majority of Filipinos believe in what the Bible says, that that part of the world Promised land for the Israeli people. Can you tell us whose land is it really?

Leila Khaled: Do you think that God has a real estate agency? God promises to give this— those people or that people. This is a myth. They just want We have to change the nature of the project itself. It's not based on religion. It's based on politics and is based on the colonial forces in this world to plant an advanced base to protect their interests in the region. So Israel fits there. And they— Describe it as something said in the Bible or in the Quran or in the Torah. I don't believe that God is not the one that they are speaking about.

Speaker 12: What benefit would it bring the Filipino people if Palestine is freed and the Palestinian people go back to their land?

Leila Khaled: It means that we are building a democratic state where everybody can live there in peace, based on duties and rights, equal duties and equal rights for all citizens, irrespective of religion, color, whatever it is. So a democratic state can build Bridges of peace and cooperation with other peoples of the world. Yeah. I suppose by that time, also, in the Philippines, there will be a democratic state, also, based on equal rights for everybody and equal duties, building socialism, because I believe that socialism is the Addressing the Filipino people, why should the Filipino people support the Palestinian struggle? Because we are similar. We are facing the same enemy, as I said. We are facing the imperialists. We are facing Zionists. We are facing reaction also. So, It means that they are in that trench, we are in this trench. So, whoever is oppressed should extend solidarity to each other, so that we can face those powers with a unity of peoples who can be victorious.

Speaker 12: To summarize this interview, Adnan Hussain, What's your general statement about this trip of yours?

Leila Khaled: I have to send a message to the people. First of all, it is my great pleasure that I came here. Second, this country and this homeland of the Filipino people and the indigenous people, as well Free. Deserves the struggle to make it free from the bases, the American bases here, and from all kinds of intervention, all kinds of repression. The people have the right to liberate their land and to have access to the wealth of the country, not to be done to— —a small gang from the society, whether it is a government or whatever it is. And the people should enjoy the wealth of their country. So, my message is a solidarity message to the people. If you continue your struggle, you will be free. Freedom deserves that we pay the price for it. A high price. But if we don't struggle, we will pay much— multiple price for being oppressed. So, we can help each other to reach to freedom. Second, this visit showed me that— gave me, myself, as a person, more strength. We have to continue, because we are not alone in the struggle. We are having other people supporting us, extending their solidarity to us.

Speaker 12: What will you tell the Palestinian people about the Philippines, specifically?

Leila Khaled: I will tell them many things, but the main message that I will deliver to our people that, yeah, across the oceans and the continent, you have other people supporting you. Don't be afraid. Continue the struggle. Thank you.