Kwame Ture - Zionism Lecture, Debate (1990)

Kwame Ture: The topic before us is one which I feel rather confident in. In 1965, while working for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, I was, through another member, a female member of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, presented the topic of Zionism. This female member of SNCC happened to have come in contact while working in South America with Palestinian forces. I myself had no scientific understanding of Zionism. And I started within the circle of SNCC quietly, unbeknown to certain elements.

Keith: We had a—

Kwame Ture: every month we read one book on Zionism. And since 1965 till today, at least, I read one book a month concerning Zionism, or broaden it out, of course, the history of Judaism. I've attended many anti-Zionist international symposiums in Baghdad, In Tripoli. I've attended many meetings of the Palestine National Council Corporation, Palestine National Council Congress, Congress, Palestine National Congress. And of course, I've had great working relationships with anti-Zionist forces within the Jewish community. In order for us to properly understand the topic, a clear delineation must be made between Judaism and Zionism. I understand that this creates certain problems in certain forces, certain elements within the society. But even if one doesn't agree with my statement, at least one should understand the general outlines which allows me to arrive at the statements that I do. Of course, Judaism is a religion, and we know that religions— of course, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in the Communist Manifesto said that religion is the opium of the masses, of the people. Of course, this statement is correct in the particular instance of Europe. It is not correct generally speaking. The error that is made by those who have been dominated by Europe is that the particular history of Europe usually becomes the general history of the world, and this certainly should not be done. We said in the particular instance where Marx and Engels both said that religion is the opium of the masses, of the people, they were correct for Europe. If one would look properly at Europe, one would see that Europe has never produced any universal religion. All universal religions that have come to Europe have come from the outside— Judaism, Islam, Christianity. One would also note that the question of religious differences in Europe is dominantly intolerant. That is to say, they burn Jews at the stake, they burn Muslims at the stake, they burn Christians at the stake, they burn nonbelievers at the stake. Outside of Europe, certainly in Africa, which we may use as an example, The problem of religious intolerance, the problem of religious differences is not dominantly intolerant but dominantly tolerant. That is not to say that in Africa one does not find religious conflict here and there, but it is not the normal way of life. Thus, this question is particular to Europe. The question of Zionism too will have a lot to do with the particular history of Europe, not with the particular history of areas outside of Europe, and particularly Africa. Of course, this question of Judaism as a religion is necessary for us to understand. As a revolutionary, I understand, unlike Mr. Marx and Mr. Engels, that religion is not the opium of the masses, but on the contrary, religion must be used as an arm by the revolutionary forces. Certainly our history has demonstrated this. Just since we're speaking all the time of Martin Luther King is a clear example, but even if you go back through our history, you will find those who've been inspired to fight for the people, that their motivation have come from religion. Yes. So we then, as revolutionaries, do not consider religion to be the opium of the masses.

Speaker 4: Not us.

Kwame Ture: We say the position here is entirely different in Africa. The religion of Judaism and Zionism must be— the religion of Judaism and the political philosophy of Zionism must be completely separated. Judaism is a religion. As an African, I'm very proud of this religion because it was given to the world by my people. Judaism began in Africa.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: We must be clear here. Of course, forces seeking everywhere to stoke nonsense will make it appear as if Africa didn't give Judaism to the world, but others came from the outside and gave it to Africa. This is nonsense, bourgeois lies, and racist manipulation against Africa. Africa gave monotheism to the world, belief in one God. And at the time that Africa gave monotheism to the world, belief in one God, every other area surrounding Africa were believing in cows, were believing in moons, were believing in the sun. It was Africa and Africa alone that gave monotheism to the world. That is why Judaism had to be born in Africa. It presented the proper conditions for Judaism to be born there. Sigmund Freud, in his book Moses and Monotheism, his last book and the book usually hidden, it's hard to get and I don't see why. I find the book to be a particularly interesting book and the conditions under which it was written. Mr. Freud began to write the book, I believe, in Austria. And because of Nazi occupation, he had to leave, and he took all the notes with him and went to Britain and hurried very much to write the book. Of course, this book, Moses and Monotheism, here Freud comes to show through archaeological proofs, Freud comes to show through historical proof, Freud comes to throw through psychoanalytical proof that Judaism began in Africa, and not only this, that Moses himself was an African. Of course, the early priests of the religion were Africans, as they had to be. They were the ones who recorded the religion. Thus, when I hear— when I take a position against Zionism, for example, when I hear people tell me that I'm anti-Semitic, which makes no sense at all because Judaism has nothing to do with Semitic people. One is a religion, the other is a biological specification, and the Palestinians certainly are Semitic. Mr. Arafat is a Semite. So if I support the Palestinians, I cannot be anti-Semitic.

Speaker 4: That's clear.

Kwame Ture: But this is all confusion here, and this confusion is well done to keep people more confused. But we are revolutionaries and we believe in dialectics. Out of confusion comes clarity. Thus, since— because our time is limited and we want a lot of time for questions, we want to make it clear Judaism was given to the world by Africa. This is clear and undeniable fact. Those who wish to look at the history, and we can develop it, look. Zionism is a political philosophy. It did not come out of Africa. The first organizational, uh, the first organizational conference of Zionism, if my memory serves me correctly, was in 1897 in a place called Balse, Switzerland. B-A-L-S-E. The reason why this meeting had to be held in Balse, Switzerland, was because the majority of Orthodox Jewry in Europe was against Zionism, totally against it. We must look properly at Zionism, its beginning, and its founder, a man by the name of Theodor Herzl, H-E-R-Z-L. Mr. Herzl was, of course, bourgeois from the deep, from ev— from his toes to his top of his head.

Speaker 6: He was bourgeois.

Kwame Ture: As bourgeois as you can get. He didn't think about the proletarian. As a matter of fact, uh, Mr. Herzl himself was not a religious person. It's extremely important. And we'll want to read his diary. He himself says that he's an atheist. You must understand the word properly. An atheist does not just not believe in God. An atheist makes the affirmative statement that God does not exist. Thus, Mr. Herzl is an atheist. I could never understand, until this day it is incomprehensible for me to understand, how is it that Zionism, a political philosophy, Born thousands of miles away from Judaism, one born in Africa, the other in Europe. Born thousands of years different from Africa, thousands of years of difference, one thousand— Judaism thousands of years ago, Zionism 1897. And how is it that they can link each other together? And according to the philosophy of Zionism, that they feel that somehow that they have some relationship to Judaism and this promised state that God promised his chosen people.

Speaker 5: Thank you.

Kwame Ture: Mr. Herzl did not believe in God. Not only did he not believe in God, he said that God did not exist. Now, he who tells me that God does not exist sets out to find a place that God promised to his chosen people. If this is not ludicrous— and this is the basis, of course, of Zionism. So you can see here the contradictions just everywhere. According to Mr. Herzl, Jews— and the theory that he said is that Jews were discriminated against all over the world. This is not true. In Europe, yes, but not all over the world. We must never make the particular history, the particular history of Europe, the general history of the world. There's no question that Judaism had trouble in Europe, but we said all religions had trouble in Europe, so that's nothing new for Europe. These are historical facts. Consequently, we must not confuse it. But Mr. Hertz and those who are Zionists say that there's a hatred for Jews Which is innate in human beings. This is unscientific garbage. How can anyone tell us which preaches a religion that someone cannot be transformed to a higher state when religion is about transforming human beings to a higher qualified state? They come to make an unscientific statement. Not only does Mr. Herschel say that people are innately— have an innate hatred for Judaism, but he says there's an innate hatred which we who are non-Jews have will continue forever. Even making an unscientific statement that nothing changes. Everything changes all the time. And certainly, if one can be a heathen and become a believer, one who hates Jews can come to understand and correct oneself and come to appreciate Jews and may even become a Jew themself. Consequently, this statement that innate hatred that the people have against Judaism is garbage, stupidity, unscientific nonsense. Zionism is a political philosophy. According to Mr. Herzl, the Jews were oppressed everywhere and they needed a state, a country which would save them and give them the right to protect themselves. Thus he called— look at the stupidity. He says that everybody in the world is against Jews, they hate Jews, and now he wants to collect them in one spot where we can all come and get them. Clear stupidity, every aspect of it. Here Mr. Herzl comes to tell us that not only are we innately against Jews and that we will never change, but the only way Jews Yes. Who protect themselves is when they come to have their own country. We said Mr. Herschel began in 1897. That great man, V.I. Lenin, at the turn of the century wrote a book entitled Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism. Is it Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism?

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: If one would read this little pamphlet, one would see here that Mr. Lenin had precisely pointed out that all of the world had already been conquered and divided by colonial powers.

Speaker 6: There was no else in the world left to be conquered or divided by colonial powers.

Kwame Ture: Yes. This is the time when Zionism comes to rise. Zionism comes to look for a state when everywhere else in the world is already dominated. Thus, in order for Mr. Herzl to get a country for Zionists, what he did was to attach himself to imperialism, British imperialism in this case, quite specifically. Of course, as an African who suffered under the heels of British imperialism, I can have no love for it, and certainly I cannot love anyone who attaches themselves to it and attaches themselves to it for the foundation of a state And then call this a liberation movement. Liberation movements fight against imperialism, not with it. Clearly hear. The legal foundation of the State of Israel is what is known as the Balfour Declaration. This declaration was issued in 1917. A man in the government of Britain named Balfour Yes. Wrote a paper and promised the Jews a national home. The national home he promised them was an area which Britain was colonizing, Palestine. Palestine didn't belong to the British, just like Ireland doesn't belong to the British, even though they have troops there. But here, these British imperialists gave— signed a note and gave it to the Jews, and they accepted it. Where is the morality for this? If you say that Israel belongs to you, then you don't go to a thief to get Israel. You go and take it. Once you go to an immoral, immoral being such as British imperialism, and this is the basis for you getting the land, then clearly here those who are truly liberation fighters must question this. The basis we say is the Balfour Declaration, and Zionists know it. The Zionism is certainly not a liberation movement. Because it never fought against any imperialism. As a matter of fact, today Zionism is the baby child and infant protector of imperialism in the Middle East. It carries out the interests of American imperialism. As a matter of fact, Zionism and American imperialism is like this: if our tax dollars would stop giving money to Israel, the state would sink tomorrow. And certainly no one can deny that American imperialism is the leading imperialist nation in the world. So we cannot see how a liberation movement is so tied, string and ham to American imperialism. They work hand in hand with American imperialism. Thus they can hardly be a liberation movement. In addition to this, Zionism has nothing to do with anything religion. Nothing. All religions are concerned with human beings after they die. That's what religions are for. Islam will tell you what happens to you when you die. As a matter of fact, this which forces you to live a good life so that after death you'll be able to enjoy the rewards of heaven. The same is true for Judaism, but Zionism says nothing about the individual after they're dead. They don't give a damn about you. Zionism has nothing to do with religion at all, and one should not make the confusion here. The Palestinian state belongs to the Palestinian people. This is a fact. Of course, Zionism in the early days made all sorts of nonsensical propaganda. Oh, they ran away, they left the land. I saw one, he said, he said, well, you know, they ran away and left the land. I said, well, they want to come back now, so just get out the way and let them come back. If you said they just ran away on their own, no. Zionism took Palestine through raw and naked terrorism. Naked. Even that butcher, Begin, he will never rest in peace. He who came and came into a village and terrorized the village to scare the people to run out and was proud of it. This is how Zionism conquered the land. They didn't conquer it not even with the Torah. They conquered it with the gun passed to them from American imperialism, British imperialism. All the imperialist countries in the world supported them. The Palestinian people have been totally driven out of their land, and Zionism comes to use as a justification for the state religion. There's no state in the world that can claim it's a state because of religion. That's not possible. Zionism cannot say that Jews belong to any one race. They cannot, because we know that Judaism came out of Africa, and the earliest Jews in the world were Africans. Even today, they must admit that those in Ethiopia are Jews and therefore should come to Israel. So once you You admit this, you admit that. Oh, Judaism then is not— this question of Zionism is not a question of race, but what they say is a nation. Of course. But a religion is not a nationality, nor is a religion a nation. Religion transcends— that's the correct word— religion transcends the boundaries, national boundaries. We know that Islam, for example, began in Saudi Arabia. But you will find Frenchmen born in France who adhere to Islam and are true Muslims. It transcends geographical boundaries. We know that Africa stabilized Christianity for the world, but everywhere in the world today you will find Christians. Religion transcends geographical boundaries. Consequently, Zionism must come to understand that it cannot claim or have anything to do with religion if it doesn't seek to transcend Geographical boundaries, and it does not. As a matter of fact, it makes itself boundaries. Of course, these boundaries are not declared. Israel is the only state in the world with undeclared boundaries. Every other state has them except Israel. Zionism itself shows itself in the flux that it is. Even though indeed Zionists want to brag about the intellectual superiority that they have, even today they haven't decided in Israel who is a Jew. Yet they've taken the land for Jews and they haven't yet decided who is a Jew. Of course, the relationship of Zionism and Judaism and Jews must be properly understood. Zionism dominates all Jewish organizations throughout the world. They were able to do this during World War II. Now you're misunderstanding something about the Jewish— Judaic religion. This question of the chosen people must be properly understood. Of course, God can never choose any of his children over any of his children.

Speaker 6: That's clear.

Kwame Ture: Because while governments may discriminate, God cannot. But one can be chosen by God if one chooses God. And so once you choose God, you become God's chosen, and you choose God to do God's work. And of course, if you will look through all religions, the majority of them, they all have a theme running through them which says that in order to be redeemed, one must suffer. And Judaism takes seriously this axiom of religions. The theory of Judaism is that the Jews must suffer, suffer for humanity, for the cause of humanity, and their suffering will redeem not only them but all of humanity. Certainly this attitude in life must be saluted by every serious man and woman. This attitude towards willingness to suffer for all of humanity for that it be redeemed must be Yes. Appreciated by all revolutionaries. Thus, when we speak of chosen people, we must understand precisely the context in which it is done, in which it is said. So that means that not only are Jews chosen people, but a Muslim who truly chooses God, a Christian who truly chooses God, anyone who truly chooses God is God's chosen people. We set the basis for it. Any other way will make it appear as if indeed it is a discriminating God, and no one can believe that God discriminates. God must be a God of justice. The Torah tells us this everywhere. Zionism then has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. It seeks to confuse the people. Of course, this is a job of all political philosophies, all backward political philosophies. They seek to dominate religions and to use religions as a tool in their exploitation. Imperialism was able to do it so well with Christianity that Christianity hunted slaves for imperialism. But in no way does this mean that we attack Christianity. No, we— when we judge a system, we judge it by its principles, not by its adherents. Were we to judge any system by its adherents, all of them would have to be destroyed because human beings are weak in relationship to their fidelity to principles. We do not judge Christianity by Christians.

Speaker 5: By Christians.

Kwame Ture: We judge it by its principles. Were we to judge Christianity by Christians, all of us would agree it should have been wiped out of the face of the earth a long time ago. We do not judge Islam by Muslims, not even Khomeini notwithstanding. We judge it by its principles. Just in passing, do not let capitalism, this stupid and backward system, confuse you. You do not judge socialism by socialists. Thus, all their nonsense about the East only threatens those who know nothing about socialism. I'm a socialist, Jack, and it hasn't shaken me a bit. The principles of socialism are intact. Thus, there must be no confusion here. The principles of Zionism are unjust. The question is whether or not Zionism is white supremacy. I need not answer the question. The United Nations gave the answer years ago.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Kwame Ture: They said Zionism is racism. And certainly, given the power of lobby that the state of Israel has worldwide, you know that if this vote came down in the United Nations, it was after a serious struggle, and there must have been a determined voice to ensure it. Zionism is racism, according to the United Nations. So this one, I won't even hide behind the United Nations. I know it's racism. Anytime you will take a people's land and come to take— well, anyway, Zionism Itself does the same thing that imperialism did with Christianity. Zionism seeks to dominate Judaism. And just like some Christians were catching slaves in the name of God, so Jews are throwing, uh, shooting Palestinians in the name of God. Of course, in no way does this shake our faith in Judaism, not at all. Zionism, of course, has certain conditions which allows for it to arise. We said they came to control Judaism after World War II. We explained that Zionists have a feeling that Jews— not Zionists, Jews— have a feeling that number one, they come to accept the suffering of the world to redeem humanity. And the Jews have been thinking according to their history and according to their religion that if they kept on going and suffering, that at one time somewhere a redeemer will appear, and this redeemer will help them and lead them towards a higher level of Human society, for the entire world. Well, if you've looked at the suffering of the Jews in Europe, you will see they suffered everywhere. Everybody gave it to them. The Russians gave it to them. The Spanish gave it— everybody. The British, everybody. They were tormented. There's no question here. Tortured in Europe.

Speaker 4: This is clear.

Kwame Ture: And these Jews, the honest Jews, the serious Jews, the religious Jews, they were looking for a redeemer. And when they thought their redeemer was to come— and even if you look at the history of Judaism in Europe, you will see they had many false prophets, opportunists who came to jive the people. Just like Christian jackleg preachers come to jive us. No difference. We're the same people. All people. Yes, they came to, to, to, to jive them and to make believe they were prophets. They were not. They were false prophets. And if you would study the history of Judaism, the Jews paid seriously for following these false prophets. But they kept believing and believing that really their Redeemer was coming, and they thought around 1939, 1940 their Redeemer would come, and Hitler came. And when Hitler came, the rabbis were completely lost for direction. They could hardly explain to the people. It was now that Zionism stepped in. Yes, we are Jews, but we must do like everybody else. We must take what belongs to us, and since Israel belongs to us, we must take it. And until we take Israel, this suffering will continue. I must tell you, for that And here their work, their work hand in hand with the Nazis was to scare the Jews and to give them the political power to dominate Jewish organizations. Needless to say that after 1948 with the State of Israel, it was a fait accompli. At this time, Zionist organizations controlled all Jewish organizations. We want to make it clear here, not all Jews in these organizations were even aware of the fact that Zionism controlled their organizations. And thus directed the energies towards Zionist goals. Here, of course, it could be easily made with confusion because these Jews were wanting to go to Israel and Zionists got Israel and Israel is our home and our spiritual base, etc., etc. You can see how easy it is to confuse.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: But we cannot be confused. Any religion that oppresses a people must be fought with without pity and without mercy. And no one can tell me that Judaism is a religion which comes to oppress Palestinians.

Speaker 5: Zionism.

Kwame Ture: It's Zionism that does this, not Judaism. Of course, Zionism tries to hook Judaism together, making them one and the same. This is to help them by doing this, because no one wants to attack a religion. Who wants to attack a religion? It's just like when they say anti-Semitic, which has no meaning at all. They want to get you afraid. Who wants to attack a people? But they're not even Semites. Golda Meir is a Cossackoid. This is a biological fact. It's about all the leaders. Abba Eban was born in South Africa. There's nothing Semitic about him. He is Khoisanoid 100%. Thus, there's no question here when they talk about anti-Semitic. They may say that I'm anti-Judaic. That's the best they can say. But I'm a conscious African. I gave the religion to the world. I cannot be against the contributions of my ancestors. So in no way can I be anti-Judaic.

Speaker 4: I'm not anti-Judaic.

Kwame Ture: But I am anti-Zionist and will remain so until it is destroyed, because it is an unjust, illegal, immoral, and racist system. What is the solution? The solution is correct, as handed down by the Palestine Liberation Organization. The state of Palestine must be secular, Mandate state. It's as simple as that. Jews must come to understand that this is their fight, and unless they take on this fight, they will allow Zionism to make their religion a gutter religion, as Farrakhan says it will become. Thus, Jews have a responsibility here, and we want to let it be known that there are many Jews who are anti-Zionist, many even here in America. And they write some very good books, excellent books. So Jews cannot confuse us and say all Jews are Zionists. No, even the Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn, they say a Zionist can never be a Jew and a Jew can never be a Zionist, and they're correct. It's like God and the devil. We say the Palestinians have the correct solution to the problem. The state of Palestine must be a secular state. Those of us who truly are against Zionism have a double fight here, not just a fight against Zionism by all means necessary, but also a fight against those who are intolerant of Judaism. A true way to undermine the force that Zionists have in the Jewish communities throughout the world is to ensure the tolerance of the religion of Judaism and use force where necessary to ensure this tolerance.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: Thus here, an educational program is necessary, but we point out here, this educational program necessary for the tolerance of Judaism is attacked clearly towards Europe because it is Europe that is intolerant. Anyone would look throughout the world and see Jews have lived in harmony throughout the world. It is only with the intrusion of Zionism into the Middle East, into North Africa, that one finds problems between Judaism And non-Jews in these areas. It is Zionism that caused all this. There's no question that Zionism will be destroyed, not one. Even today we can see it's growing. I remember in 1967 when as chairman of SNCC, the last act I did before resigning as chairman was to write a press conference against the Israeli war of 1967. I didn't read the statement because that would have caused too much problems as I was writing. It was read by a brother at that time who was called Rap Brown, Jamil El-Amin today, and he sure read the statement. The statement was clear. When we read the statement, we were isolated by everybody. SNCC was called everything and everything, and I saw the power of Zionism. I came to see it. I came to know it. There's no nonviolent coordinator in Medineh. Took a strong position against the war in Vietnam. Not only did we take a position against the war in Vietnam, but we took a position against Zionism, against imperialism itself, and the army in America by issuing the slogan, hell no, we won't go. We intended to break the draft, and we broke it. That's not giving American imperialism the chance to suck up youth who knew nothing and send them off to die for the interest of imperialism. But while we did this, Zionists everywhere supported SNCC. Why people isolate us? We spoke against the Vietnam War. We spoke against the draft. They supported us. But once we spoke against Israel, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee was destroyed in 3 months.

Speaker 4: These are facts.

Kwame Ture: These are facts. Oh, I remember those who were weak and slick at that time. The weak-kneed came and said, we've got to stop. Stop? Are you crazy? Stop! This is Africa here, and we have integrity. What do you mean stop? Now we continued, and we suffered for it, and suffered seriously, just because we took a position, and our position was clear. Egypt is Africa. How is it that you expect me, an African, to sit in America— you a Jew, a Zionist is what you are, you supporting Israel, attacking Egypt, and I can't say nothing? Oh, Egypt is Africa, Jack.

Speaker 5: Exactly.

Kwame Ture: Everywhere we— but today Zionism is no longer as powerful as it was in America. It's being questioned everywhere and attacked all the time. It's weaker today than it was then. I remember in our African community they even formed a committee called What is it? Blacks in Support of Israel Committee, BASIC. Andrew Young was a member of it. Oh yes, all of them. The names are there. History doesn't cover anything. In the African community, even now, when we spoke against Zionism, they put others to confuse us. Even Martin Luther King himself was confused on this issue. When we attacked Israel, he said any attack on Israel— this is a quote— any attack on Israel, no matter how you camouflage it, is an attack on Semitism, is anti-Semitism. Poor King was confused. He was very confused. To attack Israel has nothing to do with anti-Semitism, but we can understand King could not take the position we took. King's support came clearly from Zionists who didn't say they were Zionists, but of course any attack against Israel would have meant serious problems for King. But for us, we had nothing to worry about except the truth. And the truth was that they were attacking Israel. Israel is our home, and we had to defend Africa. So King himself was confused. But today, even those who follow King's footsteps, like Reverend Jesse Jackson, had to go and meet with Arafat. In conclusion, I want to show you sincerely how Zionism has come to control the thinking of the people. We know imperialism gives what is known as a one-sided view of history. One-sided. In America, if you want to learn the history of the Indians, you get one side, the side of the cowboys. When one came to talk of Israel, you get only one side, the side of the Zionists. You're not even allowed to look at the other side, the side of the Palestinians. That is to say, all we said in 1967 was simple. Hey man, look, there's a problem here with 2 sides.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: This is one side. That's what we hear. Let's look at the other side and see what they say. But even if you say you want to look at the Palestinian side, they attacked you. They came to show clearly their ideological connection with imperialism and their penchant for a one-sided view of history. But today that's no longer true. We say even Jesse Jackson, who says he follows the footsteps of Martin Luther King, must go and meet with Arafat and find out what the Palestinians are saying. One cannot make a judgment about a war unless you know both sides. Zionism keeps everyone confused, only their side. And the issues that they make are unjust and immoral. How can you justify the death of 6 million Jews as the rationalization for taking the land from the Palestinians? The Palestinians did nothing to you. Hitler did everything to you. Hitler lost the war. Germany lost the war. Take your state in Germany. That's where you should take it. Even the Bible says that the victors belong the spoil. Yet the Palestinians did nothing, and they went all the way over there to Palestine. The reason why they've been able to do it is because they serve properly the interests of imperialism. They were so confident in their arrogance that they thought that they could stand at the tip of Africa and stretch and control African liberation movements and also control movements in the East. They're going to get crushed by both of them. Zionism must be destroyed. Judaism as a religion must be respected. Thank you. Ready for the revolution.

Speaker 6: We're now going ahead and go ahead and, uh, begin to field questions.

Vernon Bellecourt: We've got one.

Speaker 8: Let's go.

Speaker 6: This is the first one I noticed right up there in the back, over the top.

Speaker 8: I—

Speaker 6: yeah, okay, go ahead. Wait.

Speaker 8: First of all, I take great offense with anyone defining myself and my Jewishness Judaism is not as racist as anything that you decide it is. Judaism, I define for myself, best for my wife, no one else's. If Judaism, if Zionism was racist as you say, then the state of Israel, what you would call the Zionist state, would not have taken Jewish people who were black from Ethiopia and brought them out of starvation. It is not important at their quest Jews from India, Jews from Morocco, Jews from Algeria, Jews from all of those countries which are in Africa, which are in Asia, which are not white countries. Also, Israel would not have one of the best centers for training African leaders, which is the Asian African Institute, which is located in Tel Aviv.

Kwame Ture: Let him talk. Let him talk. Let him talk. Let him talk. Let him talk. Look, we have a democracy. Are you finished or you want to continue? All right.

Speaker 9: Thank you.

Kwame Ture: Let me just answer you. We can start on your last question first. We Africans, of course, are involved in a serious struggle for the socialist unification of our continent. This struggle is a serious struggle because if one looks at Africa, it seems as if we have a monopoly of corruption. Our leaders are filthy pigs. They have no concern for the masses of our people. They're only concerned with lining their pockets. And the countries which Israel helps have the biggest pigs Who oppress us. Go now and you'll see who is the bodyguard of Mobutu, the killer of Lumumba? Israel. Go to Liberia. Who supports that butcher Doe? Israel. Go to Ethiopia, where Mengistu played that he was a socialist, and now when he's in trouble, runs back and forth. Who protects him? Yes, sir.

Speaker 5: Right.

Kwame Ture: We don't stop here. You ought to talk about the relationship you have in Tanzania, South Africa, with the racist pigs there, too. Your second question, the statement which you use saying that Israel shows that it's non-racist by going to get Ethiopian Jews and bring them to Israel shows exactly its racism. Because how can you, in the time you sound just like God, you're going to mark out and decide who you're going to save when there's drought? Here's a drought of all Africans, and you're only concerned with serving those who you call Jews. And you say this is a remark and a quality of human behavior? Judaism cannot be defined by you. I am African. I gave it to you. I too can define it. You are only representing European culture, which every time a religion comes into Europe, it tries to take over that religion and chauvinistically make it its own. It has got to such ludicrous heights that it paints Jesus Christ white, even though he never put his foot in Europe.

Speaker 6: Brother, you had a question right there. Yeah, go ahead. Then we have—

Kwame Ture: right, louder.

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Kwame Ture: Is revolution coming up?

Speaker 5: No.

Kwame Ture: America is more ripe for revolution today than it was in the '60s. This is a fact. The American press media, an arm of capitalism, tries to make it appear as if the people are less conscious today than they were in the '60s. This is nothing but nonsense. No woman sitting here in this audience No woman today can tell me that women, no matter what age they are today, are less conscious than those in the '60s of their responsibility to fight for their liberation. No handicapped person sitting in this audience can tell me that the handicapped are not more prepared to fight today for equality than they were in the '60s. In every aspect of life, The conscience of the people of America is rising, so much so that even the right wing comes to demonstrate this. They are involved in activities today which they called communistic in the '60s.

Vernon Bellecourt: No.

Kwame Ture: Yes, they picket. Even policemen go on strike. Thus, the objective conditions for revolution is clear, because the conditions in America today are worse than they were in the '60s. Beyond the wildest imagination. As anti-capitalist as I've always been, if someone would have told me in 1960 that in 1990 I would see 3 million homeless in America, I would tell them they were lying. But I see it today everywhere. While we have some 303 African mayors throughout the country, the conditions of the masses of our people are worse today than they were before they became mayors.

Speaker 5: Yep.

Kwame Ture: The hysteria of American imperialism screaming about all these young gangs with Uzi submachine guns, that's my army, and I'm glad they give them Uzi submachine guns. I'm gonna use them. So in no way must I be— no, my brother, the conditions are more ripe today than ever before. One final thing on this question about Judaism and picking up these Jews out of Ethiopia. The first country mentioned in the Bible is Ethiopia. Genesis 2, verse 13. It may be felt— it may be called Cush, K-U-S-H, or Cus, C-U-S-H, depending upon the version of the Bible which you have. If you go to an authoritative source, it will show you that Cush, either with a C or a K, is the ancient name for Ethiopia. Those Jews in Ethiopia didn't join Judaism because they wanted a state. We had a state.

Speaker 6: Next question, right there.

Kwame Ture: Oh, please, please. No, no, this is my brother. I'm sorry, I didn't even see him. This is my brother, Wabui Nini. This is my brother, the leader of the American Indian Movement, known as Vernon Bellicourt. This is my brother. And next to him is my sister and my sister-in-law, because she's his righteous comrade in arms.

Vernon Bellecourt: Dr. Ture, I had a question framed when I walked in here, and then after I heard this man up here make his statement, this really reaffirms my question, and I wanted to ask you this specific question. First of all, what he just described is, again, a good argument for the Palestinian people that they collected immigrants from all over the world to bring and occupy Palestine. Not much different than what American imperialism has done here. Now, it continues to do it. And your topic, your talk here is Zionism, white supremacy, and imperialism. Now, it goes right to the heart of my question because what he describes, of course, is what's going on now. I mean, if it's Haitians or people from Guatemala or El Salvador fleeing the death squad governments that the United States and Israel supports, Mm-hmm. Then they're turned back. We don't want these pink people here. That's what Reagan said. But if it's a gymnast or a— some Olympic superstar from Romania and she happens to be white-skinned, or it's a nuclear physicist that wants to get out of the Soviet Union, they're welcome here almost with a ticker tape parade. And so you can see how racism and imperialism and Zionism is linked together. Very inseparable. So the question I have based on that is, uh, we see the racist apartheid regime in South Africa occupying the territories of the rightful owners of Azania. We see occupied Palestine. And of course we see occupied Indian territory in North, Central, and South America.

Speaker 5: Right.

Vernon Bellecourt: Over 50,000 Indians have been brutally murdered by Bush and Reagan in the last 9 years. With the support of Israel.

Kwame Ture: Of course.

Vernon Bellecourt: And that's a known fact. And I would like to hear people like this brother start speaking out as vehemently about that. And, uh, and so I want— the question I have is, how do you see apartheid, American imperialism, and Zionism?

Kwame Ture: One and the same.

Speaker 6: I, I thought I saw a question right up here. Did you have your hand up? Yeah, you were— he was the next one, then we'll move that right there.

Kwame Ture: If there were to be a perfect world, where would the Jews yearning for a homeland go? I imagine they would go the same place as the Catholics urging for a homeland would go, that the Muslims looking for a homeland would go, that the Buddhists homing for home— there is no basis for giving a homeland based on religion. That's what I said. The question isn't to give the Jews a homeland, but to make the world more tolerant of the Judaic religion because it issues its intolerance from Europe. That's repeated again. There's no basis for giving a homeland because of religion. What is the basis? There's none.

Speaker 4: The basis is repression in every country that they've been in.

Kwame Ture: Yes, but the struggle is to fight there against that repression. That's precisely what I'm saying to you. But no, if you say that— look, look at the logic of what you say. If you say they're oppressed by all the world wherever they are, if they collect themselves and come together, wouldn't it be easier for the world to wipe them out?

Speaker 4: Has it happened yet?

Kwame Ture: Remember this statement and don't forget it. Everything changes all the time, and those who are on top will not stay on top all the time. Don't forget this statement. You had a question?

Speaker 6: Well, with the guy in the, in the, uh, the guy in the front there, Okay, as you were saying before, you were talking about the fact that Jews were only persecuted in Europe.

Kwame Ture: You did not happen to mention that Jews were also persecuted in Africa, such as Yemeni Jews in the past and today. I was wondering why you didn't—

Speaker 4: you decided not to mention that, or what your feeling is about the Yemeni Jews.

Kwame Ture: I'm sorry, would you please give us some facts as to this persecution that occurred Because myself, I'm lost, and I thought I was aware of this topic. Give me some examples of this persecution by these Yemen Jews in these countries in Africa where they've been oppressed.

Speaker 4: We don't have to talk about Yemen. We can talk about what happened in Morocco in the early 1800s, in Fez, in the Jewish ghetto where they were required to live. Talk about what happened there. First Morocco, Europe. Also, the Jews in Yemen, where there's a whole set of laws made against them.

Kwame Ture: I think we're going to punch order.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Kwame Ture: How many fruit cups?

Speaker 6: Halt, halt, halt, halt. The man right there in California with the shirt on right there, you were next. Let's do one thing. Let us again respect the speaker and respect the individuals as— and also me as I call on people who they are. Respect the authority, okay? When I call on you, then you can speak, okay? I'm calling on the man in the blue there, the California. He will be speaking. Everybody else listen.

Kwame Ture: Okay, I have one comment before I ask my question.

Speaker 4: Go ahead. That comment is that Jews were slaves in Egypt, and if I can quote you, Egypt is Africa, Jack. Can you say that that is the responsibility of the oppressed to overthrow the governments that are oppressing In that case, the Jews would have to overthrow the governments of Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Algeria, Spain, Germany, Poland, the United States, everywhere.

Speaker 5: And if that's the case, you're going to have a state of global anarchy.

Kwame Ture: I'm sorry, I just need some point of information on your first statement. Uh, these Jews, how did they get into Africa? These Jews that were slaves?

Speaker 4: You said that the Jews came from Africa. You said it yourself.

Kwame Ture: I said Judaism came from Africa.

Speaker 5: Right.

Kwame Ture: You said Jews were slaves in Africa. Is that what you said? So where did these Jews who were slaves in Africa come from? Were they Africans?

Speaker 4: I was telling you.

Kwame Ture: Were they Africans?

Speaker 4: It doesn't matter. You said Jews.

Kwame Ture: Were they Africans? They were not Africans. I'm trying to get a point of information. That's what I asked for. You know what it is? It's Robert's Rules of Order.

Vernon Bellecourt: It ain't mine.

Kwame Ture: It comes from Europe. You all know it better than me. I asked for a point of information, and I repeat my point of information. These Jews who were slaves in Africa, this statement which Begin made and even Sadat made him back up off of, Nobody's a fool around here, Jack. You understand? Benin made the statement and Sadat made him back up off of it. And if Sadat ain't hardly no revolutionary, Jack— yes, that's what I'm talking about. He went even to meet Begin in Jerusalem.

Speaker 4: May I ask a question? So what you're saying is it's okay for Africa to enslave people who came from other countries?

Kwame Ture: No, I'm speaking a point of information for you which I haven't yet gotten. These Jews who were oppressed in Africa, where did they come from? Were they Africans or were they Jews who came from the outside into Africa to be oppressed?

Speaker 4: They were slaves. What's the difference?

Speaker 5: They were slaves.

Kwame Ture: Well, in Africa— as a recent slave, you can understand there's a big difference here. Because not everybody in America was a slave. You dig that?

Speaker 9: Uh-huh.

Kwame Ture: So I want to know, these slaves, what distinguished them as slaves and made them Jewish slaves in Africa? I'm asking a precise question. Listen, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 6: He listen, listen again. Respect the people talking. The question was directed point of information at the man in the blue. He will be the one that will answer.

Speaker 4: They were slaves. I don't feel that anything can justify slavery.

Vernon Bellecourt: I don't.

Speaker 8: I can't.

Kwame Ture: That's not the issue. That's not the issue. No, I asked you again precisely if I ask you. Who were the slaves in America? Were they Jews?

Speaker 5: No.

Kwame Ture: Who were they?

Speaker 8: They were—

Vernon Bellecourt: Thank you.

Speaker 8: Thank you.

Kwame Ture: It's simple. It's simple, isn't it? No, I am not— No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I want to answer your question, but I'm asking for a point of information. I cannot answer it if it's not clear. I have a great answer for the question. I fight against slavery all my life. That's not the issue. I want to be clear, unto what slaves are you speaking of?

Speaker 5: That's right.

Kwame Ture: Well, why don't you tell me? Let's— let her help you. Tell me, what were the Jews, these slaves? But then keep quiet.

Keith: Excuse me.

Kwame Ture: Ignorance is never— ignorance is never an excuse for debate.

Keith: Excuse me. So that we can retain order, we're going to ask that you not applaud after you hear a response that's favorable to your particular position. We're going to ask you to not do that so that we can hear one another, strictly so that we can hear one another. Everyone has— will have an opportunity to—

Kwame Ture: everyone will have an opportunity, sir, to speak.

Keith: No one's trying to squelch your speech, but we do want to be able to be heard, and we do want to have a thoughtful dialogue, not a pep rally. So if you will, please indulge us.

Speaker 5: Thank you, sir.

Speaker 4: That's one thing too. I guess, I guess I don't understand your question because it seems to me—

Kwame Ture: well then, if you don't—

Speaker 4: if I say I don't know where the Jews from Egypt came from, then you're going to say, well, they were outsiders, so it was okay to enslave them. I want you to answer the question.

Kwame Ture: But you cannot tell me what I will say. I'm quite capable of speaking for myself. I'm trying to answer the question, but I cannot answer the question if I don't know what slaves you're speaking of.

Speaker 4: The slaves in Egypt that were slaves to the Pharaohs.

Speaker 5: Moses.

Kwame Ture: Is it mentioned in the Torah?

Speaker 10: Yes.

Kwame Ture: All right, now tell me in the Torah what Jews, what slaves they were and where these slaves came from. Leave the Old Testament, go to the Torah. I haven't read it. I know you don't. I know you don't. That's why you can't answer.

Speaker 4: How are you going to justify slavery to me?

Kwame Ture: That is not the issue. No one can justify slavery, even if I wanted to publicly. That's clear. Could I publicly defend slavery in 1990? Come on, be serious. That's not the issue. I am answering— I cannot answer the question because I don't know what slaves you're talking about. I know that in Africa, as in all countries passing through stages from communalism through slavery on the way to socialism, as an economic science, I understand that Africa had slavery.

Speaker 4: The Jews that Moses led out of Egypt, they choose as a subject the entire bulk of the Exodus.

Speaker 6: Look, look, will you hush?

Keith: Please, man.

Kwame Ture: No, it's all right. Dan, Dan, come on now. Thanks a lot. I can handle 5 at a time now. I can handle 100 of them at a time.

Speaker 9: I ain't worried about it.

Kwame Ture: Let them go. I can handle them all.

Speaker 6: It's interesting, they can't stand authority, can they?

Speaker 4: The whole book of Exodus is based on that.

Kwame Ture: Every country in the world has had slavery in its history. True or false? True.

Speaker 5: True.

Kwame Ture: So consequently, if I'm condemning slavery, I condemn that slavery in Egypt. That's not the question. You now say to me that these Jews were slaves in Egypt. Now I want to know, these Jews who were slaves in Egypt, were they Egyptians or did they come from outside Egypt? That's what I'm asking.

Speaker 4: And my question is, what's the difference?

Kwame Ture: The difference is clear. The difference is very clear. I'll tell you what the difference is. Slavery existed in England, did it not? We condemn it. It existed in America. We condemned it. But the slavery in America was not the slavery of Jews. It was the slavery of Africans. You understand it? We are precise here. So also the slavery in Egypt, which you're speaking about, is the slavery between Africans in Egypt as it passed through its stage in human development. But to now say that these slaves were Jews and were made slaves because they were Jews is something I cannot accept. That's why I asked the question.

Speaker 5: Why can't you accept that?

Kwame Ture: Because it is not true. That's precisely what I said. Because as every country goes through its stages, just like you said, there is not one country in the world that did not pass through the stage of slavery. Yes or no?

Speaker 6: Move on. Uh, man right there, you were the next one in the gray. Then we're going to the brother right there.

Speaker 9: In one of your answers, you openly supported these, quote, gangs with machine guns, and these are the, quote, your army.

Speaker 4: These are the gangs that are pushing drugs into our communities.

Kwame Ture: So how can I, sir, not consider you a drug pusher? You— I'm sorry, my brother, my young comrade, do you really mean to tell me that you think that these young people with Uzi submachine guns, that they're the ones who really control drugs in this country? I'll tell you who's doing it. The CIA and the FBI are bringing drugs in this country. I'll tell you better than that. That Georgie Porgie terrorist George Bush, he's the one bringing drugs into the community. How do I base what?

Speaker 5: Not me.

Kwame Ture: I'm sorry. Yes, I'm sorry you didn't understand my statement. My statement was— no, you didn't. Let me explain it to you. The Chinese Revolution built its Red Army by transforming bandit groups into the Red Army. You know this for a fact?

Speaker 5: No, I didn't take notes.

Kwame Ture: All right, well, you can read it to verify. So, okay, now these groups who are gangs with Uzi machine guns, this is my army which must be transformed to my army. They have guns now and they're being used by the enemy against my own people. I said that. You know anything about the Contras and, uh, Watergate? And Bush was the vice president, he didn't know nothing about it? You think I'm a fool? You think I'm a fool? Reagan has a deal with selling drugs through the CIA, and Bush, who's the CIA, is the vice president, he know nothing about it? You must go for that hokey-pokey stuff. Bush is the one who's bringing drugs in. I said it and I'll say it again.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Kwame Ture: And when you find out years later, you say, oh, he was right again.

Speaker 6: Let's move on right there, brother. You're next. And then, then the man here, then you.

Kwame Ture: Everybody's saying, I don't know if it's true or not, that Jews own the media.

Speaker 4: Is that true or is that a racist statement?

Kwame Ture: Because wait, here's this, my point is, if they own the media, we see how the media treats people, see how it treats African Americans, how it treats different groups where they don't like them.

Speaker 8: If Jews own the media, then who's the Jews? Why they doing this to us? They're supposed to be so oppressed.

Speaker 6: They don't like to be oppressed.

Speaker 8: Why are they doing this to us? This is true. Is that true, Che?

Kwame Ture: I would like you to read a book entitled The Zionist Connection. Anybody ever heard of the book here? Anybody knows the author of the book? Lilienfeld. Thank you. Read the book. He's a Jew. He's anti-Zionist. He's born in this country, and he gives facts, nothing but facts. The book is called The Zionist Connection. The author is Lilienthal. That will answer it. He documents it. There's no need for us to discuss it here because it'd be just back and forth, but he discusses it and he documents it in his book, and he's a Jew.

Speaker 8: Wesley, you're next.

Speaker 6: Go ahead, Wesley.

Kwame Ture: Well, you know, about the banks, let me just tell you this about the banks. Dig this. You know that during feudalism in Europe, the Jews were not allowed to own land. You know this. Matter of fact, the only thing they could do was to be usurers. They're the ones who handled the money. So when the world went from feudalism to capitalism, you know where they were. Why was that?

Speaker 4: Because the people don't even want the money. They use the Jews to collect the money so they would be more—

Speaker 5: the anger was meant for oppression.

Kwame Ture: Let me go back again. During feudalism, Jews were unable— they were prohibited, they were discriminated against. They had no right to land ownership in Europe. True or false? Therefore, their job were usurers. True or false? Therefore, who would understand money better than anybody else when the world went from feudalism to capitalism? Next question.

Speaker 6: Wesley. Wesley, go ahead.

Speaker 11: The second part that led them to the Pale of Nations, and the second part, the Zionist revisionists, Jabotinsky, Begin, and Shamir, and the Zionist connection on how they collaborated with Mussolini, the college that he set up for them to become into the military.

Speaker 12: Yes.

Speaker 11: And how Eichmann helped facilitate their Him visiting Palestine twice and how these so-called Jews are misinformed historically, even to their own history. There's a book called Egypt and Israel by Petrie in 1921. And also when the Israeli army took Sinai and went to discover that Moses come through, they found no artifacts, so there was no extra—

Speaker 8: No.

Speaker 11: It's documented in the Toronto Globe, February 9th to February 14th or so, 1987, '88 newspaper. It's documented. So he never had an exit, collaborated with the exiles, so there was never no slaves there. Habsburgs still understand. Queen said, just get these boys out of here, they are polluting our people. So therefore, could you explain it all some more?

Kwame Ture: You know, there's even, you know, the book— there's a book called Zionism in the Age of Dictators.

Speaker 5: Lenny Brenner.

Kwame Ture: Well, give them the author. Lenny Brenner. Lenny Brenner. Zionism in the Age of Dictators. He's a Jew. He's anti-Zionist. He's born in this country. He's a professor, and he has strong academic documentations to all the points the brother just made. Zionism in the Age of Dictators. Lenny Brenner is the author. I told you I've been reading one book a month since 1965 on Zionism.

Speaker 6: Go ahead, let the man right there go, and then we're going to cut it off.

Keith: Uh, sir, no, uh, before you go, I just want to say that we're going to take only—

Speaker 4: we can go through more—

Keith: only a few more questions after you.

Kwame Ture: Uh, so you should understand that, uh, we're about to bring it to a close.

Speaker 6: All right, I'm sorry.

Speaker 9: Uh, first of all, I'd like to thank you for our religion, my religion. I'm Jewish, and—

Speaker 4: You're welcome, you're welcome.

Speaker 9: Now that I am a Jew and I am a part of a lineage of a long range of Jews, I would say that the experience of being Jewish is mine and not yours. And I think that— and it can be yours too. I mean, everybody can experience it.

Kwame Ture: There's an African Jew in the back room there.

Speaker 9: But I have a problem with what you said about— somebody said, well, what are the Jews to do, right? You know, where are they to go? Well, they should do What the Christians and the Muslims and Buddhists do. But the problem that we have here is that there are hundreds and hundreds of millions of Christians, hundreds of millions of Muslims, billions of Buddhists, and about 12 million Jews. And the fact that there are so few Jews and so— it's so difficult for them to maintain any sort of a power base for negotiating, for living in a host nation, and that's basically That's basically been our history up until '48. I'm not saying that the answer is to displace another people, but I'm saying that we're in a situation here where— and another point, just very quickly, you said that the Jews came to Israel or to Palestine with arrogance. Most of them came with empty stomachs and disease and death, you know, the taste of death in their mouths. So, you know, the idea of—

Speaker 10: I'm not saying that the Jews came to Israel or to Palestine with arrogance.

Speaker 5: Most of them came with empty stomachs and disease and death, you know, the taste of death in their mouths.

Speaker 9: So, you know, the idea of You know, that type of picture really isn't that accurate. The leaders, the Zionists, maybe the initial Zionists, you know, they were fat cats. I'm sure that's true. But the people, and what we're talking about here is people, you know, people were in the midst of their suffering.

Kwame Ture: But I think you've come to corroborate my point. I think you've come to corroborate my point. I said that Zionism came to dominate over the religion of Judaism At the height of, uh, 1939, 1940 with Hitler. I said it. And that's— they're using Jews as cannon fodder. I think I said it. I outlined the strategy. I even said they worked hand in hand with the Nazis, allowing Jews to get exterminated so they would get afraid and move to Palestine. So you corroborate what I said?

Speaker 9: What are the Jews to do?

Kwame Ture: I repeat, listen to me very carefully. How many Jews are there in America? Do you know? About 5 to 6 million. 5 to 6 million.

Vernon Bellecourt: Let's give them 6 million.

Kwame Ture: How many Africans are there in America? Do you know? Let me tell you, 50 million.

Speaker 5: 20%?

Kwame Ture: No, 50 million. I'm telling you, it's the truth, it's the truth, 50 million. And you can do it very quickly. 60% of the American population live in urban areas today. True or false? In every urban area in America, at least 1/3 of it is occupied by Africans. True or false? Of course. And then when you go ahead, don't let them fool you with this nonsense. I know my work. Now when you go to the South, You will find in the South, in many states, certainly going down from South— North Carolina, South Carolina, into Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, all the way into Texas, at least one-third of the population in all of these states, sometimes going almost to one-half, as in the case of Mississippi. So I say 50 million. All right, now let me ask you a question. Out of the 6 million Jews in America and the 50 million Africans in America, who suffer the worst discrimination?

Speaker 5: Africans.

Kwame Ture: Africans, no question. So this question of the number doesn't seem to make very much sense to me. Because according to you, since there are only 6 million Jews in America and we're 50 million, they should leave us alone and lynch you. Which population— I'm just following your logic.

Speaker 9: Right, right. Which population would be easiest to destroy?

Kwame Ture: Obviously. Let me make another point.

Dan: In terms of numbers?

Kwame Ture: All right, let me make another point. The odds is out of it. Out of the two, which has more power in the society and more access to power in the society, the 6 million Jews or the 50 million Africans? Thank you. Now to come back—

Speaker 9: in certain circles, in other areas it's not the case.

Kwame Ture: Okay, but anyway— but it's not an easy question to answer because it's— No, in relation to the Africans. No, in relation to the Africans. It's easy to answer in relation to the Africans. For example, we have more elected officials in the Democratic Party than Jews do. True or false?

Speaker 9: I'm not a member of the Democratic Party.

Kwame Ture: I know, no, I'm not.

Speaker 9: I don't know.

Kwame Ture: Well, I mean, you can figure out that Certainly, we have more elected officials than Jews in the Democratic Party. But just between you and I, not the rest of them, just a personal little question. Who do you think has more power in the Democratic Party, us or the Jews? I know you don't know. I know. So anyway, one thing is clear. Let's look at it this way. The Democratic Party makes a foreign policy of giving aid. Who gets more money, all of Africa or Israel? Excuse me for interrupting. Please, no interruption. Discussion, continue.

Speaker 9: I'm not interested really in comparing the populations because what my point was, you know, with such a small amount of people, how are they going to survive? They were very much in the middle of the political mainstream in Germany before Things can change here. I'm totally convinced of that. The corruption of this country, clear, you know.

Kwame Ture: There's no question. Things can change anytime.

Speaker 9: My ass is on the line, you know, that's it. I have no place to go.

Kwame Ture: But I also said to you, and I repeat, well, I'm sure Wabanini, you let him on the reservation. The issue was raised following the logics of what you said. According to what the logics of what you said, since there are only 6 million Jews in America and there are 50 million Africans in America, or even 25 million, drop it as you like, if there are 6 million Jews, then it seems to me according to the logics of what you say that the repression would be here. But in all the history of America, I think, in all the history I've done, you may know better than me, I don't think I've seen more than 10 or 12 Jews lynched in the whole history of America.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: All right, well, I'm, I'm sure, but, uh, even the proportion in relationship to us is nothing to even wink your eye at, I'm sure.

Speaker 9: Well, but one-third of our entire population was destroyed in Germany. I mean, that's pretty big.

Kwame Ture: Yes, but you see, I— you don't, you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying this one-third was destroyed with the active collusion of Zionism and Nazism. Well, that really is a strong one, isn't it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just finishing. Let me just finish. Are you coming? Can you come here? I want to go back. The position which the other man raised—he said, "You know, well, the Jews are oppressed in Poland; they're oppressed in Britain; they're oppressed in France; they're oppressed in America. Where should we go?" But I find Israel having perfect relationships with America. As a matter of fact, as far as I'm concerned, when Israel says jump, America says how high.

Speaker 5: All right.

Kwame Ture: That's the relationship I see. So it seems to me that if one would look seriously at the relationship, it seems to me that Israel, the State of Israel, in relationship to America is in no junior partner. As a matter of fact, it's almost full-fledged partner. They— when America says don't do something, they say, America, we're not going to do it and you're going to give us money, and they give them. This is a fact. You can look at it anywhere. So the statement which you make is not clear. If the Jews are discriminated in America, you understand, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that there's not anti-Judaic Sentiment in America. I can never not say that. It exists, yes. But you can never tell me that this anti-Judaic sentiment could ever reach the level of active discrimination and active terrorism against the African masses in the country. So it's clear that even if the Jews are supposed to be more discriminated than we are, you must tell us what trick you use to get the power you have with America.

Speaker 6: Next, go ahead, go ahead.

Dan: I'd first like to make a comment, and that is to Keith and those of you who also worked to bring Dr. Ture here. While I respect your ambitions and your goals in helping us come to some kind of constructive dialogue about what the nature of the problem is and to educate ourselves, I'm very disappointed. I feel you've done a tremendous disservice to that But bring in Dr. Ture, who mentions historical facts along with many misrepresentations. He confuses things, he proposes simple answers to complex problems, and essentially draws historical conclusions where there aren't none. He— where there are none. He— it's unfortunate—

Kwame Ture: Please ask your question.

Speaker 6: Excuse me.

Kwame Ture: No, let him go. No, no, no, no, no. Let him finish. Let him finish.

Vernon Bellecourt: Let him finish.

Speaker 6: Let him make his comment.

Speaker 9: Respect the USP.

Speaker 4: Dr.

Speaker 8: Turek, you mentioned that you like to read one book a week about Zionism.

Kwame Ture: No, one a month.

Dan: I'm sorry, one book a month about Zionism. I encourage you to read, for example, the book which you quoted in your speech, the Torah. It talks all about the Jewish slaves that left the land of Canaan and went down to Egypt, became slaves under Pharaoh, and were led out of the country by Moses. You claim you know everything about that. Well, perhaps you should look more to Jewish belief, Jewish understanding of the history of the Jewish people. What is it the Jews have longed for, not just since 1897 and Theodore Herzl, but throughout their history, ever since their exodus from Egypt and their—

Speaker 8: Hold, hold, let him, let him speak.

Keith: Please let him finish.

Speaker 8: Why don't you let the guy speak? Let him talk.

Dan: Their exodus from the land, from the land of Israel, land that they had as a nation for almost 500 years, longer than any other people My question is, you've mentioned Theodore Herzl. Why not mention the fact that Zionism has existed long before Theodore Herzl, as a desire to return to the land that they were exiled from after the destruction of the Second Temple? Why not mention that in Jewish literature, in Jewish ceremonies, in Jewish longing, in Jewish prayer, the return to Zionism has always been a central Why is it now that after you decide to draw some parallels to modern Israel that you've neglected to mention a 2,000-year desire to return to Zion?

Keith: If I may, since you started out your statement by addressing me in particular, I want to say, Dan, that I don't think that this dialogue should end now, but I think that Dr. Ture's contribution to our greater understanding And I think also that I appreciate you making that statement. It's another perspective. And with—

Kwame Ture: Let me first talk about this question of unity between Africans and Jews in America, this unity that we've had. You know, you cannot think about something unless you're involved in it. So many people who talk about the '60s were never involved in it, but they just talk about it. I was involved in it. And this unity stuff, I don't understand. I am a clear revolutionary. There is no country in the world where the economically insecure can make an alliance with the economically secure hoping to bring about fundamental changes in the country. Africans in this country since slavery till this day have been economically insecure. Jews have been economically secure. Tell me, what kind of unity can you have between the economically secure and the economically insecure to bring about fundamental changes in society? There was never such unity. It was nothing but bourgeois garbage in the press to try and confuse the people. It never existed. There were individuals, Jews, who struggled, yes. But these individual Jews who struggled couldn't struggle on behalf of Jews who were economically— not only economically secure, but who in fact, when the question came for real affirmative action, On the part of the African community. They were the ones who came and broke this so-called unity because they were the ones who opposed this just demand of the African masses. So this unity which you speak about never existed. It's nothing but bourgeois theory and capitalist press media. And if you can show me— please show me— where were the constructive unity? What alliances did any Jewish organization have with any African organization in this country? Show me.

Speaker 8: So, Brooklyn, uh, the Lubitsch Jews in Brooklyn and Abe Philip Randolph and the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters.

Kwame Ture: You mean there were many Jews who were sleeping car porters?

Dan: No, there were many Jews who helped fund Randolph.

Kwame Ture: So you mean an alliance is one who gives the money and one who does the fighting? You must be serious, Doug.

Speaker 8: Many of those Jews were communists, so they shared common interests with communism.

Kwame Ture: Listen, you know, this reminds me of the alliance that the Black Panther Party had with the Peace and Freedom Party, or the alliance that people talk about that exists in Tanzania, South Africa, with white people. When I look in Tanzania, South Africa, I see only me dying. I don't see no white people getting shot down in the streets. So I don't know where the alliance is. If you got an alliance, Jack, when I'm on the front line, you're supposed to be there with me. If you ain't there with me, don't tell me you got no alliance. Now, when the Sleeping Car Porters, when the Sleeping Brothers, Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters were out organizing and these Africans were being brutalized and sent to jail, and the, and the very union which were controlled by other Jews were fighting against them, where were the Jews with us on the front lines? When you speak of alliances, you speak of alliances, and to me an alliance means that we go down together. That's what we say in our community. We got an alliance because we're going down together. That's what I understand alliance is. But if alliance is, I'm the only one going down and you doing something from behind, I don't need your alliance. You understand it? I'll go down.

Speaker 6: Okay, wait.

Kwame Ture: No, no, no, no, no, no. Let me continue. I'm coming with him. I'm coming. I didn't get to him. I'm not finished with him. I'm coming to him. Okay. I'm coming to you now, I said. I'm sorry. I started off with your question of unity because you did touch on it.

Speaker 8: Yes.

Kwame Ture: You said that it was a disservice to bring me for this unity. That's what you said. I heard you. You didn't hear you. Now, your second point. These Jews who went into Europe, since you are much clearer and certainly more precise than I am on the history of Judaism, etc., tell me exactly how many Jews went into Egypt according to the Torah. According to the Torah, they flourished under slavery. Just a point of information.

Speaker 5: No, no, no.

Kwame Ture: The Pharaoh was there before. I'm sorry. Yeah.

Dan: It's referred to in the Torah as when a pharaoh rose over Egypt who knew not of Joseph and the Jews and enslaved them, put them to hard labor. That's the slavery that I was referring to that you didn't mention, that you refused to deal with threats of—

Kwame Ture: I am still dealing with it with you. Don't go back to him.

Speaker 6: I'm dealing with you.

Kwame Ture: You got it. Tell me how many Jews went into Egypt according to the Torah. Oh, according to the Bible, it's in the Old Testament. It's in the Old Testament. How many? And how many came out? Now, when you tell me how many went in and how long they stayed and how many came out, you tell me exactly whether they were Jews or Africans in that struggle.

Speaker 5: You know everything, you tell us.

Kwame Ture: No, I know, I know everything, but I want you to know for yourself, so I'm sending you to do the research. Uh, excuse me, we, we were going pretty, we were going pretty good there, Let's cool it back out for a little. Let's continue to have a thoughtful dialogue as we were having for a few minutes, if you please. So what I'm saying is that the statements you make are beautiful statements, but we here are revolutionaries. We're scientific. We don't work with beautiful statements. We work with scientific facts. Since you know the Torah, tell me, because once you— you cannot answer the question. You know you will not answer the question because you know that the numbers of Jews that went down, and you know how they got in there, When you talk about slavery, who sold who into slavery? Well, you told me. You told me you knew it.

Dan: I told you that according to Torah, you referred to explicitly in some of your comments, the Jews went down, and then after you spoke with Fred, you didn't even acknowledge it. The Jews went down into Egypt and became slaves under Pharaoh. All I recommend to you, Dr. Lurie, is pick up a Jewish holy book and read through it and understand it.

Speaker 8: All right, thank you.

Dan: And then you'll get a further understanding of what Zionism really is.

Kwame Ture: I know.

Speaker 5: And not—

Kwame Ture: and not go on the streets constantly selling theories that have no basis in fact. But you see, as a Jew, you're not helping me, and Jews are supposed to help others. You refuse to help me? Tell me how many Jews went down to Egypt and how many came out.

Speaker 14: According to the Torah, it says 70, and it goes on to say that—

Kwame Ture: How many what came out from the 70?

Speaker 11: 70,000.

Vernon Bellecourt: 600,000.

Kwame Ture: Please. Okay, we give it to her. She's helping you. She's helping me.

Speaker 6: Yeah, that's, that's a— yeah, she'll help you. Then go right back and then we'll go over there.

Speaker 14: If I remember somewhat correctly, and if anyone happens to have an Old Testament around, we can check it out, which is really the best way to find any information, I would suggest that the number quoted is 70 down into Egypt. And after Joseph died, and after his other brothers died, and so on and so forth, through a couple of more generations, there arose a pharaoh who had no recognition And he remembers all the things that had gone on before. And it was at that point that the Pharaoh decided that the Jews, he said, actually referred to as Hebrews, are getting too numerous. Let us do something about them. And he proceeded to institute, we will kill all the male children, we will make them work so hard that they will not be interested in anything else except getting some sleep and going back to work, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 14: And this is not something I'm making up. I'm simply just quoting. And as I said, if you send someone out for the Old Testament, you'll see it right there.

Kwame Ture: How many went out? I don't know. I'm just saying. 600,000. 600,000. Huh?

Speaker 11: 650,000, and 90% were African, and the other 10% were a combination of what we call mulatto type. Didn't look like no European like y'all do now. It's all documented from your own authors, and I have the books, and you can go to the person that's in the library and pick it up if you can't see.

Kwame Ture: Okay, now we're moving on to the brother right there.

Speaker 6: Everyone else quiet. He's going to ask the question and let him go through. Then we're coming here to you, sir, and then we're going to the To the lady right there in the aisle.

Kwame Ture: Okay, uh, if it's for— I'll make mine quick.

Speaker 8: And in fact, if there is a system, you know, I don't want any women to be silenced.

Kwame Ture: I'll give my—

Speaker 6: Okay, well, give it up to the lady right there next to you.

Speaker 15: It's a very general observation of the theme of today, and I kind of want you to tell me your vision because the main— if I had to summarize this lecture for somebody afterwards, it's that the main religion— we're talking about religion a lot— that the major religions of the world were born in Africa and distorted by the northerners. Okay. The white people screwed up. So I would change— I don't want to say this offensively, but it seems like the theme is not white supremacy here, but that you have a vision of black supremacy. And you may be right. I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 5: No.

Speaker 15: But how is it going to be when your day comes in this country or in the world? And it may be coming. How is it going to be better? How's it going to be different?

Kwame Ture: In our Holocaust, we lost 300 million. Our day has been here, our day is still here, and our day is not over yet. We lost 300 million in the slave trade. Africa's backwardness today, economically speaking, is a result of the underpopulation of Africa, which was taken out of Africa and built imperialism— German, French, British, and American imperialism. Consequently, I do not understand how from anything I said that you can assume that I'm speaking of superiority of Africans. But when you say the white people screwed up, I could understand your statement because it's in relation to what I said. I said, and I repeat, the history of Europe in relationships to religious differences is dominantly intolerant, that the history of Europe shows everywhere struggles against religion. As a matter of fact, I once read a book I read a book recommended to me by someone. It's a 2-volume book. It's entitled The General Outline of the History of Europe. I forgot the name of the author. I think it's Perrin. Anyway, he's a man who was in jail at the same time Hitler was in jail on the other side. He wrote the book from prison. Very good book. But his book— what impressed me about the book was that he demonstrated that the history of Europe must be seen as a struggle of religions. And he started off with the struggle for the Pope between the Germans and the Italians. Yes. And said the final resolution came with the German Reformation with Martin Luther, which is quite clear and understandable. So when you say white people screwed up, that's your term. My term, and I repeat, the culture of Europe on the question of religious differences is dominantly intolerant. I would only remind you that many of the white people who find themselves in America today are here as a result of this religious intolerance in Europe.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Kwame Ture: And many of those in Tanzania today were Huguenots from the French who went and took our land in Tanzania, were also the result of religious intolerance. Thus, for me, the problem of Judaism itself and the rise of Hitler is only a continuation of this culture of Europe reaching certain heights. This is a problem, a European problem. I will not make the particular history of Europe my history. I will never do that. So I'm correctly— and I will repeat to you that religious differences in Africa In Asia and outside of Europe has been dominantly tolerant, and this is a historical fact. So they screwed up, we didn't, and we ain't about to.

Speaker 6: The woman right there, go next.

Speaker 12: I'm not Black or African American, and I'm not a Jewish practitioner. I'm just an American, and I'm here because I thought I'd learn something and I thought I'd be inspired. And I'm not I'm extremely sick. I see hatred between people who have labeled themselves Jewish or African American, and I'm totally against these labels because I don't see it as progressing. We're regressing. We're grouping ourselves off. We're segregating ourselves off, and we're arguing. Everybody wants revenge for the things that have happened in their history. Everybody's been hurt. Even on an individual basis, we get hurt. I'm We extremely sick. want revenge. We want something better. We want to prove something for ourselves and for other people. We don't need to step on each other to do it. I mean, more power to everybody to get what they want, to, you know, fill their beliefs with freedom. Everybody should have freedom and power of choice. But what is the point in putting down somebody else, blaming somebody else? I mean, accept it. Take responsibility. It's today, you know, right now. Move on.

Kwame Ture: We're going to have one more question.

Speaker 6: Sister, you right up there in the back, you got your hand up.

Speaker 10: There are Jews who are frightened by the whole war. What are we going to do about it? We have to respect their position. We have to respect their people. We have to respect their women. We have to respect their children who are going to war against the Palestinians. Don't forget I'm a Muslim too. I am a woman, again, crying for the Crying for the children in the world, crying for the woman in the world. Please, let's have something else. History has been done. Let's go forward.

Kwame Ture: My sister, it is really difficult for me to understand how from anything I have said you've considered me to be against Jews. I repeat, I'm against Zionism and the state of Israel. Well, then I don't see what the discussion is. Well, then ignorance is not a basis for argumentation with those who have knowledge.

Speaker 5: That's right. That's right.

Kwame Ture: That's right. She said she didn't know. I told you I knew. My sister.

Speaker 11: My sister.

Kwame Ture: We present to you the solution. Since you say you are ignorant of this, then let me tell you, and I repeat, ignorance What are you going to talk about tomorrow? I am talking— I am telling you, in the first place, I said that the problem is on one side a question of religious tolerance for Judaism. I said this more than once, did I not?

Speaker 10: I would like to say, love is the answer.

Kwame Ture: Sister, can you please let him respond to you?

Speaker 10: We would like to respect the Jews. We would like to respect the Jews. Disrespected.

Kwame Ture: Who has disrespected? Which African has disrespected a Jew? Which African has ever lynched a Jew? Farrakhan. Farrakhan? Give me a break. Give me a break. Which African? What? Where? I mean, I told you that the problem of religious intolerance sprang from Europe. Are you disagreeing with me? Are you saying that we in America, even the Africans here, have lynched Jews?

Speaker 10: We don't want to mix between the people and the political standing.

Kwame Ture: How can you not mix between people and political standing? Where— which people are not political? Once you get 2 people together, you got political relationships. How can you have people without political— and if that's the case, then you must be with me. You must be against Zionism, because Zionism is a political philosophy which seeks to misdirect the energies of religious Jews.

Speaker 10: What is it? Israel is not one state.

Kwame Ture: But I told you, I repeat to you the solution if you didn't hear it. A democratic secular state. I repeat it, not a religious state. I said it.

Speaker 10: No, it's actually not. My family are PLO.

Kwame Ture: Well, where were you when I was saying it? Before I said it's the PLO, I mentioned it. Do you want me to repeat it just for you?

Speaker 10: PLO knows that.

Speaker 5: The people who are living in Israel need peace from them.

Kwame Ture: Hey, the problem of the Middle East was the intrusion of Zionism in there. Before then, there was peace. The Arabs always want to have it. It is— yes, the Arabs always fight among themselves. Me too, we Africans fight among ourselves. But you superior Jews don't fight among yourselves. Zionism controls you and makes you fight us.

Speaker 6: This is the last question right here, and that is it. I have a question.

Keith: Okay, here it is, the last question for the day.

Speaker 6: It's the last question.

Vernon Bellecourt: Uh, you stated many times during your talk, which I thoroughly enjoyed— I heard you talk before a long time ago, but I'm an older beatnik— but what I'd like to know is, you stated you were a revolutionary and you convinced me. You sure as hell are. What I would like to know Is when the revolution comes, what are we going to have?

Kwame Ture: Socialism, baby! Straight up.