Kwame Ture (Stokely Carmichael) at the University of Georgia, Part II (February 1, 1979)

Kwame Ture: I think we can begin, yeah.

Speaker 2: Thank you, first of all, and for the enlightening lecture. And I hope you remember when I meet you at the University of Lagos, '69.

Kwame Ture: I'm glad to see you again, my brother.

Speaker 2: And I hope the struggle for the African people will continue. And I think it will continue. And the African people are very, very conscious. Wherever they go, they are becoming conscious of the problem. Either in the United States or somewhere else. And even the American people themselves, they are becoming aware of the struggle that the Africans, they are leading, and they are trying to help themselves. Because when I came here, and many of the African people, the same situation, Africans are ignored as a kind of curiosity to come to them. But I think most of them are becoming aware of the African people that they exist.

Speaker 3: Thank you.

Speaker 2: As a human being like them, and many of them, they share the struggle already. They're starting sharing the struggle. I just want you to ask some questions. Do you think— one question, in fact. Do you think socialism, Russian, I mean, here, or communism is fit for the African people? Or the African people should create their own socialism or their own communism? I think communism is fit for the African people. Something which very congenial to their own culture, to their own ideology, instead of importing another ideology, Russian, because I do, personally, I do not believe that the Russian socialism or the Chinese communism is or fit for the African people. The African people have to produce because the social, the Russian socialism, it was for the Russian people. Not for the African people, like the NATO or even to some extent the United Nations. And here I go beyond. The United Nations or the NATO was not for the African people because they were not created, not motivated by the African people. So I think you have to think about the idea of importing Russian or communism or any foreign ideology. To Africa, we have to create from our intelligentsia, from our knowledge, to your— as you refer to it, we have to create our consciousness. Thank you so much again.

Kwame Ture: Thank you for the question. It is good to see you again. 1969, Lagos.

Speaker 2: Lagos University, Lagos, in the basement in the library.

Kwame Ture: I remember it.

Speaker 4: I remember it.

Speaker 5: Thank you.

Kwame Ture: Well, the struggle continues. The struggle continues. We get stronger, as a matter of fact, more determined to win.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Kwame Ture: Truth, we know, is universal. It must be. 2 plus 2 is 4 in China. 2 plus 2 is 4 in Moscow. 2 plus 2 is 4 in Timbuktu. 2 plus 2 is 4 in Athens, Georgia. Truth is universal. Truth cannot be invented. It can only be observed and reported. Scientific socialism is a truth. Of course, in our compilation of knowledge, in our attempts to help assist ourselves remember things, sometimes for the sake of remembrance we may become a little bit sloppy about precision. Let me give you an example of what I speak. We may call the laws of gravity Newton laws, that is to say we refer to them commonly as Newton's laws. Newton cannot invent that a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless stopped by an outside force. He cannot invent this. The best that Newton can do is to observe it, and the best we can do is to know that he might have been the first man to have recorded it, written or oral. But certainly, as a baby, I knew that a body in motion tends to stay in motion unless stopped by an outside force when I ran into an object.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Kwame Ture: I say we call it Newton's law, but Newton couldn't invent it. He observed it. So too, we come to confuse socialism sometimes, and the capitalist system, wherever we make mistakes, will aid us in our mistakes, aid us in our mistakes, aid us to make them bigger, that is.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Kwame Ture: We come to see socialism sometimes as belonging to Marx or belonging to Engels or belonging to the Russians or belonging to the Chinese.

Speaker 3: Not at all.

Kwame Ture: Just as the laws of gravity cannot belong to Newton, So too the laws of socialism cannot belong to Marx. They cannot belong to Engels. The best that they can do is to properly observe these laws and record them. The best we can do is say these are people who were the first we know to have recorded socialism or concepts and precepts of socialism. Socialism is a universal truth. Its principles are, one, that the people must own and control the means of production. Number 2, the system must be planned properly and there must be all scientific and technique data used to improve it. Power must come from the people and be emanated by the people. I'm coming, I'm coming. That is to say that socialism in Russia, socialism in China, socialism in Europe, socialism in Africa must be the same like 2 plus 2. It may look different. Its manifestations will be different. There are different cultures. The culture of China is not the culture of Africa. Because they're different cultures, Doesn't mean that they're automatically antagonistic to each other. Not at all. The culture of Europe, the culture of Africa are different cultures. Therefore, the manifestation of socialism in Africa, the manifestation of socialism in China, the manifestation of socialism in Russia will be different, but the essence will be the same, as it is with 2 2. If we went to China and we wanted to see 2 2 is 4, they will do 2 2 is 4 for us on the abacus board.

Doug Teeper: 4.

Kwame Ture: If we go to Africa and we ask for 2 2 4, they will do 2 2 4 for us with the cowrie beads. If we go to Russia and we ask for 2 2, they may give us 2 2 4 with wheat grain. They're different manifestations, but the essence is the same. The truth is there. Therefore, we in Africa must fight for scientific socialism. Those in Russia must fight for scientific socialism. And just since no one has a monopoly on socialism, It is not to be assumed that any one country will be the first to arrive at socialism. That one must be clear. And also, since no one has a monopoly on socialism, it cannot be assumed that if one country moves forward and makes mistakes and falls back and even seems to be revising its stand, that's no reason for us to be discouraged. On the contrary, we hold stronger to truth. Yeah, but don't forget—

Speaker 2: sorry to stop— but don't forget that Remember when the colonization, the French or the English came?

Speaker 5: Yes.

Speaker 2: The same thing, like just recently in Ethiopia. I think they say socialism, but the books of Lenin and Marx are sold there. We don't need them.

Kwame Ture: No, we can read them.

Speaker 2: We can always learn. They came with— remember the French, what they did? What we call assimilation, the policy of assimilation. When the French came, they colonized, they wanted to produce African French, and they did, like Senghor.

Kwame Ture: Exactly.

Speaker 2: You see, and you, in France, they have a white French representing French ambassador, Senegalese ambassador. But these people, when they came, if we bring Russia, they don't come just as— socialism is associated with them. So as they come there, you have their flag, you have their books—

Kwame Ture: I understand the problem.

Speaker 2: —and their language.

Kwame Ture: I understand the problem.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Kwame Ture: The problem here is not so much socialism as the objective as much as our cultural integrity and the ideology. Socialism is an objective. The ideology, that is, that thing which is to guide us to socialism, must be ours and authentically ours. Our party fights for socialism. For example, the Chinese Communist Party, holding true to its principles, fights for socialism. The Chinese use Maoism as an ideology to get them to socialism in China. If I in Africa also use Maoism to get me, I'll be confused. I can only use the culture of Africa to arrive me at where I want to go. Therefore, my ideology is Nkrumahism, and here I'm correct. But this Nkrumahism is not at all in opposition to Marxism-Leninism, not at all. On the contrary, we take the universal truths of Marx and Lenin, we take the universal truths of Mao Zedong, we take the universal truths of Ho Chi Minh, we take the universal truths of the capitalist system, because truth can come out of the mouth of anyone, even the enemy. And these truths we take and we mold.

Speaker 4: That's right.

Kwame Ture: But these truths are molded according to our culture, our understanding, and the level of production of our society. It's not imposed, and we cannot at all impose ideology, never. Thank you.

Doug Teeper: My name is Doug Teeper. I'm organizer of the Truth Demands Justice Concern.

Speaker 4: I'm glad.

Doug Teeper: And victim of the Kent State atrocities.

Kwame Ture: Oh, excellent.

Doug Teeper: And I'm also a candidate for student body government. I'd like your opinion, is can destruction of the system best come within or outside force?

Kwame Ture: What do you mean outside? Do you mean— because I'm not sure. Some people say, I want to get inside the system, then I'll help overturn it. But when they get inside, they look like all the others and do like all the others. So do you mean to get in the system, or do you mean an over— I'm not sure. Were you talking outside or inside, physically or ideologically? Well, it must be ideologically, obviously.

Doug Teeper: No, it can be physically, and there you can cause destruction within the system. Don't you believe that capitalism is a self-destructive system?

Kwame Ture: It is, it is.

Doug Teeper: That's right. So can you not, if you obtain a position inside capitalism, can you not thus hurry the process?

Kwame Ture: Yes, but you must hurry the process. What I say is that some people, if they're not careful, get into the process and automatically become contaminated with the process. As a matter of fact, The only safeguard against going into the system and messing with the system is when you have an ideology which is diametrically opposed to capitalism. That is to say, once you know, once you go in there and you know properly the truth and you have an organization which continually aids you in your ideological struggle, because if you go in by yourself with all the honesty and integrity, you will come out probably corrupt. The best you can do is just to walk out without being corrupted. Well, I congratulate you for your work as an organizer. I salute you for your work on the Kent State. You should keep up the struggle. It is a just struggle. Do not be discouraged. I wish you good luck in your campaign. And if you get elected, use your office for the students. Use your office for the students uncompromisingly. Use it.

Doug Teeper: The revolution comes.

Speaker 4: Yes. I would like to ask you, do you believe in the Martin Luther King theory, or are you strictly communist? Also, like, I was born and raised on a farm, and like, I can't use all these philosophical words, so forth and so on, and I'm not— well, I went a year and a half of junior college, but I didn't get a degree. But, uh, I would really like to know, do you believe a person like, uh, John Roseboro told me, the, uh, professional baseball player said once, you can go to elementary school and like you learn a little knowledge, and when you come out of high school you're supposed to learn common sense, but when you go to college That's where your degrees come in. That's where your education come in. He said you can miss one of the 3 and you can come out of school an educated fool. Do you believe people supposed to have common sense or the education?

Kwame Ture: Let's see. I think I can detect 3 questions.

Speaker 4: That's right.

Kwame Ture: On the first question, as a brother born on a farm, if I use words which you don't understand, Please, let me tell you that what you should do is to write those words down and go study them and know them as well as I know them, because there's nothing I can do that you can't do. And you must never let anybody whoop you with any knowledge, because it belongs to everybody. And as your brother, I urge you and encourage you to learn these words and to understand them, to know capitalism, To know communism and to know socialism. I urge you to know them for yourself, not to take my word for it or anybody else's word for it, because there are forces that are fighting in the world over it. On your question about Dr. King, no conscious man, no conscious woman can have any principled disagreement with Dr. King. I, being a conscious man, striving every day to be more conscious than I was yesterday, can never have any principled disagreement with Dr. King. Dr. King was a man who demonstrated properly that above all the interests of the masses came first. He clearly demonstrated that the value of his life could never be questioned in terms of a relationship in regards to the people's interest. Myself, for me, this is the greatest good. This is the best life that a man can live. I, however, do disagree with Dr. King on certain tactical areas. Now, the confusion arises— again, once you make mistake, you see the press will help to create and widen the diversions. The problem arises because Dr. King While being a great man, while being a sincere man, while being a devout man, was a man who made some mistakes. The mistakes he made represent us, because he fought for us. He came from us. He fought with us. Therefore, we have a responsibility to properly analyze the mistakes that Dr. King made, so that we ourselves do not repeat these mistakes. The television press, The mass media, those who control the society today, do not want this. As a matter of fact, they want to further confuse us. Let me show you how the confusion can arise. They can say, for example, Dr. Martin Luther King, and right out of Dr. Martin Luther King, next word coming out their mouth is nonviolence, so that when you talk about Dr. King, as a matter of fact, all you talk about is nonviolence. The very question which you raise is that when you say the Dr. Martin Luther King theory, I know what you mean to say, nonviolence. Dr. King's error was that he confused a tactic with a principle. Nonviolence is not a principle. It cannot be. It can only be a tactic. It is a means to achieve certain ends. Dr. King, because he was an honest man, because he was a sincere man, because he was a dedicated man, and because he had a history of theology, it was easy for him to confuse this tactic, nonviolence, and make it a principle. Once Dr. King made the confusion of making a tactic a principle, that is, to make nonviolence, which is a tactic, a principle, Dr. King now had to say, because he was an honest man, that the only way we can achieve our liberation is through nonviolence. What he now did was to say the only way. If you examine properly this statement, it means that if Dr. King could achieve his liberation by getting an army together and a battalion together and waging some struggle with the army, he won't do it, that the only way he will do it is through nonviolence. Obviously, this is an error. Nonviolence is not a principle. It is a tactic. As a member of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, I didn't join the Southern Christian Leadership Conference because the Southern Christian Leadership Conference advocated that nonviolence must be a way of life, a principle. I joined the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which advocated that nonviolence was a tactic. That is to say, for us in SNCC, if we could achieve our liberation, if we could achieve our objective by being nonviolent, we'd be nonviolent. But if in order to achieve the liberation of our people we have to throw some hand grenades, we're chucking them.

Speaker 4: That's awesome.

Kwame Ture: I hope you understood it. That'll be the last question.

Speaker 3: No question?

Speaker 5: Okay. I've been following closely what has been going on in the press. My question is as regards the American-Red China relationship. And I know that a lot of Third World countries have been trying to emulate Chinese approach of socialism. And I'm not sure whether— where this relationship between Red China and U.S. is going to— how this is going to change things. Yes. You know, as far as the Third World or developing countries are concerned, what do you think about this relationship? Is it going to help Chinese people in their drive towards socialism?

Kwame Ture: The policies being directed by the leadership of China can in no way help the masses of the people of China. When the Chinese Vice Premier stands and tells us that America China, and the third— so-called Third World countries should join hands against the Soviet Union, he is a totally confused man. My biggest enemy is not the Soviet Union. My biggest enemy right now is Smith Wollster and American imperialism. And I will not have him come and confuse me, just like the Americans can't tell me who my enemy is. He cannot tell me who my enemy is. He will not confuse me. My enemy is American imperialism. If he needs to join hands with America for Russia, that's his problem. That's his problem. But certainly he cannot sell out the interests of the millions of the Chinese people who struggle and suffer and move forward for socialism. It cannot be destroyed. The movement can only go forward. There are setbacks always. No reason to be discouraged with scientific development.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Kwame Ture: We will go forward. He's only trying to confuse. My enemy is not the Soviet Union. Why am I going to Soviet Union with Smith's stand? Does it mean that I should join hands with Smith and we go fight the Soviet Union? He sounds just like Smith. He sounds just like Foster. That's just what they say. He's a communist. The Soviet Union has given him the guns to shoot us. He sounds just like him. No wonder he's in Zaire holding up puppet regimes in Africa. But we do not, of course, denounce the Chinese people. We know the people will move forward to freedom, but the reactionary leadership, it will die away as surely as Mao Zedong died. Well, we thank you. The— one more question, I'm sorry.

Speaker 7: I'd just like to state an opinion. You said that capitalism is backwards and stupid, stupid, stupid, repulsive.

Speaker 2: Stupid, stupid, stupid, reactionary, barbaric.

Kwame Ture: No, I didn't use the word repulsive. That's too mild.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Speaker 7: Well, I'd just like to state my opinion that I think violence is barbaric and stupid and repulsive, and that's my opinion.

Kwame Ture: But please, please, please, may I ask you a question? Please. Just for clarification. All right, now I'm not sure, are you agreeing that capitalism is bad or you don't think it's bad?

Speaker 7: I didn't say. Huh? I didn't say anything about it.

Kwame Ture: Well, what do you think about it?

Speaker 7: Capitalism?

Kwame Ture: Yes. Well, well, let me ask you this question. Let me ask you this question.

Speaker 7: I live in a capitalist society.

Kwame Ture: Okay, let me make it easier. Let me make it easier.

Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, please, yeah.

Kwame Ture: If you were a slave and I were your master, and the only way for you to be free was to strike a blow to kill me, What would you do? You didn't answer? You didn't answer? I didn't hear him answer. Are there any? Yes, very many. Yeah, get a sister the mic.

Speaker 3: As a Muslim in the United States, I've been encouraged. by the power of religion in Iran in eradicating oppression. And I'd like— I wonder if you would speak to— I'm a little nervous. I wonder if you would speak to that power, the power of the faith and the unity of people in one God, and to see, you know, to see what role you think that plays in world affairs. Well, I think that's a very important question.

Kwame Ture: I could address myself, particularly the question about Islam, but I would like to address it generally to all religions, that is to say, not just Islam. I will speak also of Christianity, Hare Krishna movement, Unification of God, all religions. The reason why men and women cling to religions is because all religions preach righteousness. All religions tell us that in the end, Irrespective of the struggles that we must undergo, irrespective of all the struggles and the injustices that we have to bear, that we should bear these with the conviction and the knowledge that in the end justice will triumph. This is the essence of all great religions.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

Kwame Ture: Of course, we know the principles live on. Unfortunately, it's the weakness and the failings of humanity that cannot make us properly grab the principles. A Christian cannot be a Christian if there is injustice and that Christian is not actively fighting against injustice. A Muslim cannot be a true upholder of Islam, cannot claim to be a follower of the Prophet Muhammad, if in the face of injustice all he does is bow down 5 times a day. A member of Hare Krishna movement. Cannot really claim to be a member of Hare Krishna movement if in the face of injustice all they do is chant. No, we say all true religions tell us that it is our responsibility to struggle against injustice. Religions, like all things, are tools and weapons. They can either be used for the benefit of humanity, like knowledge, or they can be used against humanity. I say, depending upon who is controlling the religion, it will either be used for the benefit of humanity or against humanity. Reverend Ike claims to be a minister of the gospel. Dr. Martin Luther King claims to be A minister of the gospel. Ike preaches Christianity. King preaches Christianity. Ike uses Christianity to rip off the people. King uses Christianity to mobilize the people, put the people in the street, and make the people fight against injustice while singing hymns and chanting the name of the Lord. All truly religious people must be involved in struggles against injustice. All truly religious people must be revolutionary. If one says one is a Christian, if one says that one has the love of Allah in one's heart, if one says that one follows the principles of true religions and one is not fighting against injustice, one is a hypocrite And the truth is not in one, and one is not a child of God. One is in fact a servant of the devil. We can get him going. Last question.

Speaker 7: Yeah, I've been active in prisons in the United States since the Rockefeller slaughter in Attica in 1971.

Kwame Ture: I applaud you because I applaud all organizers and strugglers for justice.

Speaker 7: And you spoke earlier of, uh, of lack of organization. And, uh, I've been to— I've been to Attica and I've returned to Auburn Prison, the so-called Black Man's University, since 1971. I've gone back every year. And, uh, I wonder what your feelings are, or if you have any theories, as far as how there could be more of an outside-inside communication between blacks and between prisoners in general. I mean, how can we make more awareness and more communiqué in this? Because I really think there's a great need for it.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Kwame Ture: Through— the only way, the only way is through organization. The best way is through revolutionary organizations. But the only way is organization. It is only through organization that, first of all, the education will be systematic on a constant basis, which is necessary. We, as revolutionaries, know that it doesn't make sense to begin a job and put the job down without finishing the job. Not only will the job discourage us, but it will discourage others who come after us. Therefore, revolutionary organizations of parties which incorporate the prisoners inside the parties and do not make the prisoners a separate entity outside from the people— this is the only way. We wish to thank you. And again, if you disagree with me, I've got no problem. No problem. I do want you, however, to use your knowledge for humanity, and don't let the capitalist system use you. Thank you. Those African students who are conscious, if you please just come on the right side of the room, if you want to do some serious work for the people or hear about it. On the right side of the room.