Khaled Meshaal - Al-Jazeera Interview (2011)

Rawya Rageh: Hello and welcome to Talk to Al Jazeera. I'm Rawia Raghah and with me on the program is Khaled Mishal, the Damascus-based leader of Hamas. He's in Cairo to celebrate a reconciliation deal between the various Palestinian factions. The deal, which was brokered by Egypt, puts an end to four years of bitter infighting between Hamas and Fatah. It's the first step towards the establishment of a unity government and is seen as a prelude to the creation of a Palestinian and independent Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. Mr. Mishal, thank you for joining us. Let me begin by asking you, for years Egypt had been trying to mediate this very same deal but with very little success. And all of the sudden we have this rather surprising rapprochement. Why now and what are the main reasons behind that?

Khaled Mishal: Good. Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. The main reason for reconciliation was the feeling of being divided, a division that was not of our making but that we were forced to live with. We all suffered from the division and from day one we were aiming toward real reconciliation, but it was not possible because of the involvement of other parties. We were very close to reconciliation in Cairo in 2009. We had the Egyptian paper to work from. We thought it needed some amendments, but the previous Egyptian government would not allow any changes and even Fatah never responded to our proposals. But today, we have a new chance. Although frankly we could have reconciled 18 months ago had Egypt and Fatah responded positively to our amendments at that time. Anyway, after the great revolution, Egypt and Fatah are now responding positively and we have the Egyptian paper and our amendments as the basis for this reconciliation.

Rawya Rageh: What are some of those points that you had requested to be changed in the former Egyptian document that was presented to you and that you managed to succeed in changing this time around?

Khaled Mishal: As well as this, we have agreement on the formation of both the election committee and that call that will approve the election results. and there will be the formation of the higher security committee for both Gaza and the West Bank. These were points of difference between us and we needed to agree on everything. Also, we in Hamas were keen to determine what role the PLO would play in the temporal leadership. We are keen to make sure that certain objectives were reached without delay. But this point was dropped from the Egyptian paper. We also have agreed other points like the role of the Legislative Council and the resumption of its role after the reconciliation.

Rawya Rageh: Great. Now, you had mentioned that the previous Egyptian government, some of them had objected to some of the points that you had raised in the previous arrangement. What is your biggest criticism of the former Egyptian government and were there any specific individuals that you have seen as a hindrance to Palestinian reconciliation?

Khaled Mishal: To cut a long story short, the previous situation was not bad. There were some positive aspects and there was some communication between both sides. But at that time, the Egyptians doubted us. They thought we belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood, as if Hamas is part of the problems in Egypt. And they had a problem with our stance on Syria and Iran, which is different from that of Fatah. After the revolution, the Egyptian vision is clearer and there is a new spirit.

Rawya Rageh: Well, since you've brought it up, sir, let me ask you, what is, can you clarify to us, what is the nature of the relationship between Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood?

Khaled Mishal: We have one root. We have the same roots, but we are an independent organization, different to any other in the world. We are Hamas, a national freedom movement with an Islamic background, and our aim is to free our lands and to restore our rights. We led resistance against occupation, and we are open towards Arab and Muslim nations. Our historical background is related to the Muslim Brotherhood But this should not lead to any confusion by some regional powers.

Rawya Rageh: Let me ask you, let me go back to the reconciliation deal and ask you. Some of the critics are skeptical because there are several outstanding issues that it's not clear exactly how these issues are going to be dealt with. For example, we've heard you in your speech in Cairo say that you're willing to be governed by one unified leadership. So what does that mean for example when it comes to the fate or the future of the Hamas security forces who are in control of Gaza?

Khaled Mishal: From the outset we were divided. We had two governments and two authorities and different security agencies. The parliament was put on hold. We needed real reconciliation on the ground. There will be an interim period during which we will unify the authority, resume parliament and form the new government with capable and able ministers. We will have to agree and approve the names of the prime minister and ministers who are not connected to any faction or party. We will also try to unify national security agencies and security decision making. All this is going to take time and we need the goodwill of everyone involved to make it work for the security of the Palestinian people.

Rawya Rageh: This deal also talks about the release of political prisoners that are being held by Fatah and Hamas. What is the next step in that direction?

Khaled Mishal: In the reconciliation document, there is a clear phrase that says immediately after signing the reconciliation agreement, all the Palestinian prisoners will be also immediately released from the Palestinian prisons in Gaza and the West Bank. But in Gaza, we have a limited number of these prisoners, a few dozen, while in the West Bank there are hundreds. We have agreed on the necessity of releasing them as soon as possible, particularly political prisoners.

Rawya Rageh: Since we're talking about the issue of the political prisoners, has this reconciliation deal revived any talk about the future of captured Israeli prisoner, Israeli soldier, rather, Gilad Shalit, and the prisoner swap deal between the Palestinians and Israel?

Khaled Mishal: Reconciliation has nothing to do with this issue. Undoubtedly the exchange of prisoners with Israel is a major national issue. The Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit arrested by Hamas is an important card for the Palestinians to hold. It will enable the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leadership to have back our prisoners, male and female, from the occupation prisons. it's an ongoing issue the atmosphere surrounding the reconciliation is very positive and there is no relation between the matters we are keen to deal with this issue in a Palestinian national way we are also keen to release all Palestinian prisoners from all factions it's a national responsibility our aim is not to have gains only for Hamas we need national gains for everyone hopefully we will succeed but the main obstacle is Netanyahu's position Netanyahu and not the Palestinian positions is the main reason for the delay of the prisoners' issue. When Netanyahu came at first, he took the Israeli position backwards and the whole issue was frozen. That's why I'm honestly saying Netanyahu is the main reason for the delay in the prisoners' exchange and the release of Gilad Shalit.

Rawya Rageh: Since we're talking about Mr. Netanyahu and the Israeli government, you had said that you were willing to do anything for this reconciliation deal to succeed. Could that possibly include recognizing the state of Israel?

Khaled Mishal: These two matters have no relation. We are ready to pay any price for Palestinian reconciliation. Anything between Hamas and Fatah or between Hamas and any other faction from our point of view could be easily overcome and we are ready to pay any price for the settlement of all remaining issues, whether critical and painful or not. But the recognition of Israel is something between us and Israel, and the Palestinians are not in agreement regarding this topic. Some of them say yes, we can recognize Israel. Some say no, but this has nothing to do with reconciliation.

Rawya Rageh: With all due respect, you see it as an irrelevant issue to the issue of reconciliation, but there are other people who see it as perhaps an obstacle to the peace process, to continuing talks with Israel, to the future of Palestinian statehood. What is your take on that?

Khaled Mishal: As I said to Abu Mazen and as we say to the brothers in Fatah, we are in a new era during which we need to manage and agree upon all decisions. No one can act unilaterally. Political decisions, even for a political movement, should be reached through national consensus. Security decisions should be also the same. The resistance, fighting on the ground and confronting the occupation needs a national consensus on the way forward so as to help the people and support the result of this reconciliation. Hence, if we used to act unilaterally in the past, today we need to reach consensus on everything. I know this will take some time. We need some time to cover issues like the final settlement and the peace process. But consider that the peace process was postponed because of Netanyahu and not because of the Palestinian division. To prove that, let me say that the Palestinian negotiators worked on through the process with no gains or results. Netanyahu has a veto and has some red lines. The Israeli negotiator, supported by his government, put a veto on the 1967 borders and refused to withdraw from the whole West Bank. He also has a veto on Jerusalem and settlements and the right of return. So what else do you need to have a successful negotiation? The main reasons for the failure is Netanyahu and his government, as well as the failure of the international community to force Israel to achieve peace in the region. We've seen how the Obama administration is incapable of even forcing Israel to freeze settlements during negotiations. The Palestinian negotiators have nothing in their hands to force Netanyahu to make one concession or to acknowledge the Palestinian rights. The topic of negotiations is very complicated and it needs to be seriously reviewed by all the Palestinians because such a vicious circle will lead to nothing. We need to add additional element to the Palestinian scene and we need to have some strong cards to force Netanyahu to rethink again.

Rawya Rageh: This is very similar to the remarks you made in your speech here in Cairo when you said that while you're willing to give peace another chance, yet another chance, that Israel, whom you described, cannot be dealt with with diplomacy alone. You had very harsh words for Israel and you urged Egypt and other international players to come up with what you described as new strategies to put pressure on Israel. What exactly do you mean by that?

Khaled Mishal: I want to say two things. First of which, we in Hamas don't trust the Israeli will or the Israeli performance. I said we gave the peace process 20 years, since 1991 until now, and no results were achieved because, as I said, Israel doesn't want to acknowledge the Palestinian rights and no one can force Israel to do it. Our cards are not strong enough and we have lost them as Palestinians and Arabs. international community together with the United States have no impact for the sake of the reconciliation we need Palestinian Arab understanding we are ready to give an additional chance to the peace process so as to make clear to everyone that the peace process with Israel will not achieve anything this is our understanding that is no result with Netanyahu according to the current negotiating rules and the current balance of powers this is the first point The second point is that during a long 20 years we have seen some very painful times and learned a lot about Israeli positions from leaders since Sharon to Netanyahu which teaches us we need to rethink and learn a new strategy. By a new strategy I don't mean to declare war on Israel because the power balance does not allow us to do that despite the fact that Israel is a real enemy to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinian people and the whole region.

Rawya Rageh: I'd like to move on now to the developments in Syria. How do you think what's happening in Syria will impact Hamas? We're hearing a lot of talk, for example, about the possibility of Hamas having to relocate from Damascus to other locations, perhaps Egypt and Qatar. What kind of impact would that have on Hamas, really, what's happening in Syria?

Khaled Mishal: I am sorry to say recently there have been false reports about moving the headquarters of Hamas from Damascus to another country this is completely untrue this is not a decision and we have no idea about these false reports but as you know there are some people who want to create confusion and undoubtedly what's happening in Syria raise concerns and we live in Syria and we are following these events we realize that Syria is a target because it's foreign and national policies are unacceptable to both the US and Israel and there might be some regional and international parties who are also aiming at forcing Syria to pay the price of its positions. We all realize this. If the United States is seeking to help some of the regimes in the Arab region so as to avoid the winds of change, it's the United States in the Syrian case that is willing to topple the regime there. This is a real challenge, but at the same time, in Syria and other countries of the region, there are people who are seeking freedom and reforms and more support at home. There are internal affairs and nothing to do with us. We hope that Syria will submit a model that is different from other models in the region and that is able to absorb and understand the people's ambitions in order to be stronger against those who are targeting Syria.

Rawya Rageh: You mentioned that what's happening in Syria is an internal affair, really. Allow me to ask you, some people say it might be rather selfish from Hamas, really, that when it comes to the Palestinian cause, we hear a lot of Arabs rallying, taking to the streets in support of the Palestinian cause. But when it comes to other internal Arab causes, we don't see Hamas reciprocating or stepping up. What is your comment on that?

Khaled Mishal: The difference is not between Palestine and the other Arab countries, but the difference lies in the nature of the Palestinian cause and the Palestinian battle in Palestine. We have a conflict between the Palestinian people and the Israeli occupation. This conflict is not a domestic Palestinian affair. Problems between Hamas and Fatah are a domestic matter. But conflict with Israel is important to every Arab. Similarly, if any other Arab country, like Egypt or Syria, Jordan, is under foreign aggression from Israel or America or anyone else, we should not be neutral. It's not a domestic affair.

Rawya Rageh: How do you think the changes in the region will affect Hamas, its internal structure, its domestic policies and even its international policies?

Khaled Mishal: I consider what's happening in the region a great Arab renaissance. The Arab countries are renewing themselves. This is the case with all nations. The Arabs deserve a real renaissance with democracy, freedom reforms, development, scientific progress, and this will strengthen our options against foreign aggression and give the Arab nations its rightful place among world nations. Of course, sometimes mistakes happen in this process of awakening.

Rawya Rageh: So does that inspire you to reform your own organization? Because there has been a lot of criticism really to the way Hamas has administered Gaza in the past few years. A lot of anger among young people in Gaza about unemployment, the lack of basic infrastructure and development. Does that inspire you to reform your own organization? What is your assessment really of the way Hamas has administered Gaza over the past few years?

Khaled Mishal: I have told some Arab officials during our recent meetings that as well as giving advice, I try to apply these advices to Hamas as a movement and our government in the Gaza Strip. Undoubtedly, we are human beings and we have made some mistakes. But what's happening in Gaza is not natural. And we cannot judge what's happening in Gaza because this is not a stable sovereign country. In Gaza we have a constant aggression from Israel. We have a blockade and Palestinian people have been under siege for the last five years. It's a big prison called Gaza. One and a half million people living in the biggest prison in the world. The government doesn't have money and the movement of individuals is not natural at all. They cannot travel. They cannot go out for medical treatment or work. Even the construction in Gaza is very difficult. Thousands of Palestinians failed to reconstruct their homes after the war. And that's why it's difficult to judge the Hamas government in Gaza. With this reconciliation, we will definitely form a new government with the hope of not being interrupted by the U.S. or the West or the Quartet. so as to avoid another harsh situation in the Palestinian territories. We ask and we hope that the Palestinian people will be able to face the Israeli occupation and to practice democracy and have the freedom to elect members of parliament so that all Palestinians can live a decent life without blockade or collective sanctions.

Rawya Rageh: The United States, the European Union and other members of the international community consider Hamas a terrorist organization. Do you hope that with this reconciliation deal and perhaps the changes in the region that Hamas will be able to change this outlook or this image? And are you doing anything actively to work in that direction?

Khaled Mishal: First of all, Hamas doesn't adopt any terrorist thoughts so as to be classified as a terrorist organization. Hamas is resisting the occupation which is legitimate with an international law and such resistance has been practiced by people in Europe. Asia and in the United States resistance is our legitimate right so the United States has no right to classify us as a terrorist organization on the contrary Hamas is a politically and intellectually open Hamas is practicing democracy in all its organizations and Hamas took part in the Palestinian democracy so we are a democratic movement a political movement and the resistance is a legitimate conflict The United States and its allies have a double standard. They have preconditioned judgments towards Muslim and Arab nations. We all hope this image will change without begging anyone because we are practicing our rights. And if the U.S. does not change its views today, it will be forced to change them tomorrow. The U.S. has accused Mandela and Arafat of being terrorists, and it was forced to deal with them both as well as others.

Rawya Rageh: There's been a lot of talk about Hamas's stance on the killing of bin Laden and the way he was killed. Can you set the record straight and tell us what is Hamas's stance on this issue?

Khaled Mishal: Hamas has nothing to do with al-Qaeda and within Hamas we do not agree to many of the actions of al-Qaeda, especially operations against civilians, including the 9-11 events. We are with the resistance against the occupation only if it is in a military context. But we cannot approve the killings of civilians and the behavior of the United States against its enemies in the world is not accepted because America killed people in an unlawful way. It also targets the feelings of Muslims and Arabs under the pretext of anti-terrorism. The way Osama bin Laden was killed and then his body thrown into the sea is not acceptable and we condemn it.

Rawya Rageh: Some people would argue that there are civilians who do lose their lives as a result of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip. What is your comment on that?

Khaled Mishal: We never target civilians. We are in a defensive war. We are under aggression. Our land is occupied, and we have the right to fire the aggressor. There are illegal settlements and a blockade imposed on us. In addition, Israel is spreading a Jewish culture onto the city of Jerusalem. There are thousands of Palestinians jailed in Israeli prisons. Thousands of homes destroyed in the West Bank, as well as the separation war, a change in the Palestinian demography, and aggression against Muslim and Christian shrines. All these are reasons enough to resist and defend ourselves. So what's the problem? The problem is that the world is focused only on the reaction from Gaza. Israel kills with the most sophisticated American weapons and the West seldom criticizes. As mentioned in the Goldstone report, they might withdraw their criticism. When the Palestinian victim defends himself with a modest weapon, they accused him of being a terrorist. We do not target civilian locations with our basic missiles. If we offered new and sophisticated weapons, we would definitely target military locations. We might sometimes unintentionally hit civilians with our basic missiles.

Rawya Rageh: So does that mean that as part of this reconciliation deal, I would like to know really what is the future of Hamas' policy specifically on this issue? Are we going to be seeing Hamas holding its fire or are we going to be seeing Hamas still continuing that, going down that specific path?

Khaled Mishal: Hamas resistance and the Palestinian people resistance will definitely come to an end when Israel's occupation ends. Occupation necessitates resistance. The new reconciliation will help Hamas and Fatah to manage their resistance. And we will continue with this until we get our rights and establish our state. Hamas is flexible. We have stopped firing unilaterally for some time now. We've also reached an agreement at some time to stop exchange fire with Israel. But most of the time, Israel does not abide by this and fires on us. Sometimes Israel abides by this in Gaza, but never in the West Bank. So the problem is Israel. But for the sake of the Palestinian national interest, we are ready to reach an agreement on how to manage the military decisions. But we know that we have the right to resist until we get our rights.