Kathy Kelly, Ridgely Fuller - Gaza Freedom Flotilla II (2011)

Speaker 1: The Audacity of Hope, the U.S. boat in the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, makes a break for freedom out of the harbor in Athens. It's quickly intercepted by the Greek Coast Guard and escorted into a naval base, where it's now trapped. The Greek government has officially made it clear that it's enforcing Israel's blockade and has instructed its Coast Guard and Navy to use all available means to prevent flotilla boats from leaving its shores. The Tahrir is no different. Its passengers have been ready for a week. Its paperwork is in order. It's passed the extra The boat meets all the ordinary safety checks imposed by the Greek authorities, and its fuel tanks are full. But still, it's going nowhere. Organizers of the Canadian boat say they're using all available avenues to get their boat freed. They plan to challenge the government's order over the next few days through legal and direct action.

Speaker 2: We are exploring every single avenue we can think of. So, obviously, there's the legal avenue, because that order to Ground our ship makes no sense whatsoever. We are also trying to make political pressure. And we are also looking to all our technical alternatives, let's say.

Speaker 1: And the vast majority of passengers onboard the Tahrir are ready to wait it out, their determination still palpable.

Speaker 2: International institutions, the Egyptian government, the Arab League, the U.N., have failed to support the Palestinians' human rights. And I think it's people that will break the siege of Gaza. The flotilla, which is at the crest of that.

Speaker 3: I come from a Jewish background, and my parents were refugees from the Nazi Holocaust. For me, that background is a strong humanist, internationalist set of values that say never again for anybody.

Speaker 1: Earlier, the passengers rallied through the town of Agios Nikolaos in Crete, where the boat is docked, to express their fury at the government's decision.

Speaker 4: This is shame on the Greek government. It's shame on the EU. It's shame on the Canadian and American government, because they're all kowtowing to one power, which is trying to tell them where their citizens can travel, what their ships can do.

Speaker 1: And despite their government's position, many Greeks support the effort. The Greek government is following the orders of Israel on this issue.

Speaker 5: It has broken the friendship with Palestinians and Arabs that has existed for many years and has gone against the feeling of the Greek people.

Speaker 1: Greece's strong statement on enforcing the blockade has revealed Israel's hidden hand behind the bureaucracy and technicalities the ships had faced. And the flotilla's hopes that the Greek government wouldn't obstruct its mission, given the Greek people's history of opposition to imperialism and support for Palestine, has fallen by the wayside. But the passengers say too much hope, love and finance has been invested by millions around the world. It's too late to give up now.

Speaker 6: A Canadian and an Irish boat quietly left a Turkish port on Wednesday bound for Gaza. Democracy Now! first broke the news on our live broadcast on Wednesday. This flotilla marks the latest attempt by international activists to break the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza. Earlier this year, Greece blocked the departure of several ships from another flotilla heading to the region. In 2010, Israeli forces killed 9 Turkish activists, including a U.S. citizen, on an aid boat called the Mavi Marmara, which was part of the first such international flotilla. Well, this latest flotilla, with the 2 boats, is called Freedom Waves to Gaza. The Canadian boat is called Tahrir, Arabic for liberation. And the Irish boat is called Saoirse, Irish for freedom. Before they set sail, David Heap, one of the Canadian activists onboard the Tahrir, explained the name of the flotilla.

Speaker 4: Coming out of the 2nd Freedom Flotilla, we're calling what— the current departure Freedom Waves to Gaza, because rather than thinking of it as separate, countable waves that you can call 1, 2 and 3, we're really thinking of it more as continuous waves of human solidarity, continuous waves of people intent on challenging the blockade in different ways, coming from different countries, from different ports, different groups of boats, whenever they're ready to go, to challenge the blockade in a way which is less predictable.

Speaker 7: Right.

Speaker 4: It's more unpredictable than an annual flotilla, but also more creative.

Speaker 6: We go right now to a video report. The boats are now sailing through international waters. Democracy Now! correspondent Jihan Hafez is onboard.

Speaker 7: It's an emotional moment for activists who spent weeks planning a secret mission to Gaza.

Speaker 2: Made it!

Speaker 7: After news After numerous setbacks and complications, an international delegation prepared to set off from a coastal town in southwestern Turkey in hopes of challenging Israel's siege of the Gaza Strip. The activists onboard the Irish and Canadian boats dubbed Freedom Waves to Gaza organized under unusual circumstances compared to previous convoys to Gaza. Activists concealed all information about the flotilla from the public. A media embargo was in place for journalists invited to cover the event. Video journalists were not allowed to take out their cameras until the boat's departure. David Heap, a member of the steering committee on the Canadian boat the Tahrir, explains.

Speaker 4: The cameras are just coming out now, because we were keeping it very quiet and discreet before our departure, because we didn't want to attract attention to it. We didn't want to put the Turkish authorities in a difficult position. So our departure was just as a private pleasure vessel. There was a discrepancy between what our ship's papers say in terms of the International Naval Survey Board and what we're allowed to carry. We're certified to carry up to 50 people. They have a regulation that a private pleasure vessel can only take up to 12 people, including the captain. So, very reluctantly, we reduced our delegation, our carefully chosen international delegation, and left 24 of our friends behind. But they're all with us supporting the fact that we're departing. It's not about us. It's about the Palestinians in Gaza.

Speaker 7: Karen De Vito, a member of the Canadian delegation, attempted to reach Gaza from Greece this past summer, before Greek authorities, under pressure from the Israeli and U.S. governments, intercepted the boats before they could reach international waters. It almost seemed like a replay of what happened this summer, when we were unable to sail. That was a manifestation that the blockade has been outsourced. And that was very, very disappointing. This time, we had to leave some people behind. That's heartbreaking, to leave our colleagues behind. It's a bittersweet moment. But we really want to bring attention to the fact that ordinary people everywhere should be able to live in peace and in the presence of justice and without fear. Fear in their everyday lives and without fear overall that they're going to be invaded, occupied. These boxes were labeled as food, but they are actually filled with medical supplies. The Canadian vessel is taking $30,000 worth of medical supplies to Gaza, along with personal letters from Canadian citizens addressed to the residents of the besieged territory. Although the Turkish Coast Guard followed The boat was towed closely behind the Canadian and Irish vessels. Both boats made it out to international waters safely and began the long journey to Gaza. The main obstacle now that could prevent both boats from reaching their final destination is the Israeli response. In May of last year, Israeli commandos killed 9 activists when the first flotilla tried to sail to Gaza. Activists say they have trained in nonviolent resistance in the event Kit Kittredge is the only American delegate. She says those onboard are trained in nonviolent resistance and are prepared for the possibility the Israelis intercept the boat.

Speaker 5: We just breached international waters, so I'm ecstatic. And I also anticipate that the Israeli Army, probably— the Navy is probably considering boarding us at some point on our way to Gaza and the siege. And I'm not feeling fearful.

Speaker 3: I'm feeling actually pretty peaceful.

Speaker 5: And that's what we are.

Speaker 7: How is a peaceful boat and a peaceful flotilla going to end the siege? As news of the flotilla continued to circulate throughout the night, Israeli forces announced their navy is prepared to block the boats from reaching Gaza's shores. To prevent a possible assault by Israeli forces in the evening, organizers are planning for both boats to reach Gaza's territorial borders during daylight hours. In the meantime, both vessels sail freely into open waters. Jihan Hafez for Democracy Now! on the Tahrir en route to Gaza.

Speaker 6: And we are joined right now by Jihan Hafez, who is onboard the Tahrir. That's the Canadian boat, part of the 2-boat flotilla headed to Gaza right now in international waters. We'll see if we can hear her clearly. Jihan, are you there? Jihan, are you there?

Jihan Hafiz: Jihan, can you hear me? Yes, I'm hearing you.

Speaker 6: Ah, very good.

Jihan Hafiz: Yes, I'm here.

Speaker 6: If you could just tell us the—

Speaker 5: Yes, can you hear me?

Speaker 6: Yes, we can hear you fine. Can you tell us the latest report from where you are in international waters? You're on the Tahrir, the Canadian boat. The other boat that is alongside of you, the Irish boat, have you made contact yet? And what are your plans? What are the ship's plans on the 2 boats at this point?

Jihan Hafiz: Yes. For the first time today, actually, since this trip was planned, the delegations from the Canadian boat were able to make physical contact with the Irish boats. As we've been sailing, it's been— the seas, the waters have been very rough here, so they haven't been able to board the boat, and we haven't been able to board their vessel. However, the plan is to continue the voyage, to continue this voyage to Gaza. Regardless of the threats coming from the Israeli government. And in fact, both teams met today to hold meetings with the journalists and delegates on board to discuss a strategy for when the Israelis do intercept the boat, if they intercept the boat, and what will take place from there. We're about 120— excuse me, 150 to 170 kilometers off the coast of Gaza. It'll take us about another day and a half to get there, as I mentioned in the report.

Speaker 3: Right.

Jihan Hafiz: The activists and the organizers of both flotillas do not want to reach Gaza's borders, at least the territorial region, until daylight. They do not want to have a similar situation to what happened to the Mavi Marmara. That boat was attacked in the evening, and they want to avoid any kind of misperception about violence if violence is committed. As mentioned in the report as well, There's also a commitment to nonviolent resistance. There was training for that today on the boats, to make sure that if we do come in contact with the Israelis, there will be no confrontation from those on either boats. Aside from that, the spirits have been very high.

Speaker 6: Jihan, is there a boat that is following you?

Jihan Hafiz: At the moment, there is not. There was last night, up until 4:00 in the morning, on our side. There was an unidentified boat that was following us. The only other boat that followed us out of international waters was the Turkish Coast Guard. So, from the boat, we all presumed it was the Turkish Coast Guard. But there's no longer anyone following us. It's only— it's only the Irish boat and the Canadian in open waters.

Speaker 6: Jihan, we— you took us on a tour of the boat you are on, the Tahrir. And we met some of the activists onboard— Canadian, Australian, there's a U.S. There's an American citizen onboard, as well. Who's on the Irish boat?

Jihan Hafiz: These are solely Irish delegates. Some of them are former members of Parliament. We haven't been able to sit down and speak with them, but we do know that there are 3 to 5 onboard who are former members of Parliament. Also, they're a group that has been making— that has continuously made efforts, through different initiatives, to reach Gaza. And we haven't been able We haven't been able to speak with them, but they have been to Gaza a number of times before, some of the delegates. And they planned this on their own, in close coordination with the steering committee here. However, we have not been in touch with them at all. They've sort of been on their own in this journey, mainly because of the waters, but also because of the secrecy of the planning of this. So, they're mainly— it's mainly an Irish delegation. I also want to mention that the Canadian boat was restricted to 12 people, out of the 36 Of the 26 who were meant to come along on the Tahrir, the Canadian boat, only 12 were allowed on, whereas the Irish boats, they only allowed them to have 12 on, but they snuck some people on their boats. And so, the entire Irish delegation that came to Turkey to take this— to make this voyage to Gaza is present, and they're heading in that direction now. We have supporters from this boat are still in Turkey. Some returned home, and they're working on—

Speaker 3: Right.

Jihan Hafiz: They're working on logistical work, as well as media work, to communicate with people on the boat. The internet hasn't been— hasn't been precise at times. It goes out every now and then. But there is a lot of international support from the organizations represented on this boat, as well as the Irish one, including a number of committees around the world that are supporting what these freedom— these Freedom Waves to Gaza are, essentially an extension of the Free Gaza Movement, which is a movement to break the siege by any means and at any cost.

Speaker 6: Is there fear onboard your boat, the Tahrir, the Canadian boat that you are covering? There are 12 people onboard the boat; is that right? The captain, 6 activists and 5 journalists?

Jihan Hafiz: Yes, there is concern. I wouldn't say fear. I think people here are defiant in that they believe in what they're doing, and they believe that What they're doing is peaceful and that they will— even if there is any kind of— the Israelis do board the boat or intercept the boat, there will not be any resistance, any violent confrontation from any of the activists here. So the concern is mainly losing a lot of their equipment. Some people came here with their cellphones, their laptops. I have camera equipment here. So there's a lot of concern about if we do get detained on international waters, what will become of our personal items.

Speaker 3: Right.

Jihan Hafiz: But as well, what will happen when we're in detention? How long will we stay there? And there are some Arabs on this boat, and they expressed a deep concern that they could be detained by Arabs and possibly their legal rights will not be respected the way the international delegates will be. And so, there are legal teams now working on the ground in the United States and in Canada to ensure that those who have either visa issues Or who are concerned about being detained by the Israelis, will have full equal rights in the event that's something that the Israelis do board the boat.

Speaker 6: Jihan Hafez, I want to thank you for being with us, reporting for Democracy Now! onboard the Tahrir. That's the Canadian boat, one of 2 boats in what they're calling the Freedom Waves to Gaza flotilla, that set sail yesterday from Turkey bound for Gaza.

Desmina Mutzuras: Welcome to the July 17th edition of This Week in Palestine on WZBC 90.3 FM, a weekly show hosted for many years by our beloved Sherif Fam and continued in his loving memory by his friends. I'm your host, Desmina Mutzuras, and on today's show, we continue our conversation on the power of grassroots nonviolent resistance to stand up against violence, oppression, and injustice. We'll be speaking shortly with Kathy Kelly, co-coordinator of Voices for Creative Nonviolence based in Chicago. Kathy is a longtime peace activist and co-coordinator of this campaign to end U.S. and military economic warfare. As a co-founder of Voices in the Wilderness, she helped form 70 delegations from 1996 to 2003 that openly defied sanctions by bringing medicines to children and families in Iraq. Kathy and her companions lived in Baghdad throughout the Shock and Awe bombing campaign. In 2010, she made 3 trips to Afghanistan, helping to connect U.S. peace activists with Afghan youth peace volunteers and other other representatives of civil society. In the spring of 2011, she joined a delegation to Afghanistan again to join Afghan Youth Peace Volunteers in their campaign, Live Without Wars. She's also visited Pakistan twice since 2009 and was part of a small delegation that reported from Gaza during Israel's brutal Operation Cast Lead assault. Kathy was sentenced in the past to 1 year in federal prison for planting corn on nuclear missile silo sites between 1988 and 1989. She spent 3 months in Peking Prison in 2004 for crossing the line at Fort Benning's military training school. As a tax refuser, Kathy has not paid federal income taxes since 1980. She and her companions in Chicago believe nonviolence necessarily involves simplicity, service, sharing of resources, and nonviolent direct action in resistance to war and oppression. If you'd like to find out more about the work of Voices for Creative Nonviolence, You can visit their website at www.vcnv.org. And welcome back to This Week in Palestine. And thank you, Kathy, for joining us so early on a Sunday morning.

Speaker 3: Thank you, Despina.

Desmina Mutzuras: You're welcome. I'd like to start our conversation today by asking you what motivated you to participate recently in the Gaza flotilla and in the Welcome to Palestine campaign, and how does these experiences How do these experiences relate to other journeys you've taken in Pakistan, Afghanistan and other parts of the world?

Speaker 3: Well, you know, anytime that you leave a war zone and you've got the blue American passport, you know you're going back to safety and security. There's an unsettling feeling, and there should be. You know, why should I be the one that gets safety and security? And I had been in Gaza during the final days of the Operation Cast Lead. And it was horrible. The infrastructure was reduced to rubble in many places, and civilian homes had been hit, and hospitals, and mosques, and universities. And I remember a doctor from the burn unit— his name was Dr. Nafis Abu Shabhab— put his head in his hands, and he said, the world watched for 22 days, and no country did anything. Right. Well, that was true. But I think since that time, and also with the horrible shock of the Mavi Marmara and the execution on the deck of people, and also helicopter gunships shooting at civilians, international civil society has reflected in the formation of the Flotilla Project. That they can't just watch and sit on their hands and pretend that we're not aware of what's going on. And so I think the flotillas, the International Flotilla Project, from its inception years ago and throughout the very persistent and hard work that's been required to form these international flotillas, has shown that international civil society is prepared to try to take action. And so I very much wanted to be a part of this. Now, I'm really glad that you are asking this difficult question of how does this compare with other countries, because, I mean, really for years my focus was almost entirely on the economic sanctions against Iraq. And certainly those economic sanctions were the most comprehensive economic sanctions ever imposed in modern history. But I felt that, you know, those of us who had focused So much on the economic sanctions against Iraq ought not to ignore what was happening in Gaza. But one difference was that it was possible— it wasn't easy, but it was possible— to enter into Iraq and to travel in various parts of the country. We were always kind of under the thumb of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship. But I think one of the exacerbating causes of misery in Gaza is that—

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 3: That people cannot enter in and out. And the Rafah border crossing opening doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I just talked to a young friend from Rafah yesterday, and he said he sees almost no difference whatsoever in terms of people being able to come and go. And I've also recently been to Afghanistan 4 times in the past year. And I guess I should say that in Afghanistan, the poverty is so lethal that 850 children die every single day. But I think that it's understandable that young people in Afghanistan have formed such an affinity with some of the young people they've spoken with by Skype phone calls and through the internet in Gaza, because they likewise feel trapped, they feel imprisoned. And, of course, the reality in any of the countries that I've visited is that But the media doesn't portray what it's like for the people who are bearing the brunt of these wars, both military and economic. You just don't get the sense of what it's like to be trapped and unable to protect your children and unable to construct a better life for yourselves because of the constant warmaking. And people aren't responsible Israel for having done anything to affect the people of the United States. And yet we're the ones who are helping supply these arsenals for the Israeli government. We're very implicated. And most people in the United States barely even know what the consequences of our economic development are.

Desmina Mutzuras: And that's very ironic that there's some mobility in war zones like Afghanistan and Pakistan, yet in Gaza no one can get in. It's almost hermetically sealed. Sealed by the Israeli government, of course, with complicity of our government and European governments. Having said that, can you describe some of the highlights of your recent trip during the flotilla and in your attempt to enter Israel?

Speaker 3: Well, I was very impressed with the people, both those who had organized the flotilla and those who were helping to sail it. Get our efforts afloat and setting sail. I was particularly impressed by Anne Wright. She is a force to contend with, in the best possible sense of the word. She brings all of her skills in terms of diplomacy and organizing and analysis and writing and is a tremendous—

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Motivator, an animator, pulls out the best in people. So it was just, it was a real privilege to watch her. I also was impressed that Mustafa Barghouti came to visit us when we were on the boat. We were at this point stuck, docked in a military harbor. The Greeks had forced our ship back, and the captain was still in jail, and it was looking pretty bleak, to tell you the truth. And he came and sat with us, and this was a real privilege.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: It was a privilege to hear from him and to hear his upbeat report. He's really looking forward to September as being a time that might make a real difference as the people of Palestine petition for statehood at the United Nations in the General Assembly. It was important for me to be part of the fast across from the United States Embassy. At that point, we were certainly fasting for freedom for Gazans. We were fasting to free our boat and also to free the captain of the boat, who was still in jail. And we were arrested by Greek police, I think, on orders from the United States Embassy, because we didn't want to leave this small space that we were occupying across from the embassy. But then, about— on July 4th, Spanish activists, who also were unable to set sail because the Greek government had imposed bureaucratic procedures that prevented their boat from leaving, They went into their embassy, and they refused to leave. They were inside the embassy. They more or less occupied it. And it was so amazing, because when I went over to see the Spaniards in their embassy, it almost— it looked like an opera scene. You know, they're occupying the balconies of the embassy. They're looking out on the Acropolis. They've got their flags festooning and their banners hanging in the front of the embassy. And there was one— Greek. Greek security guard working to kind of protect the embassy. That was it. And it was clear that they didn't need any more security. There wasn't any possible hint of a threat. This was a political action, but it wasn't a violent action. Well, over at the U.S. embassy, there's a long line of cars from the employees who work inside the embassy, and they all have to be examined one by one to see if there's anything attached underneath that might be an And they've got Brinks guards, and they've got Greek police, and the place is fortified, and it's got spiked walls, and it just looks like a huge military compound. And this is true of U.S. embassies around the world. Now, why? I think it's because the practices of the United States, and in the case of its alliance with Israel, are unsustainable, and they occasion so much antagonism. Right.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: That people in other parts of the world are angry at people in the United States and at our representatives in other parts of the world. So we held that fast for 3 days across from the embassy. And I should also say that at no point did anybody from the U.S. Embassy, until 5 days had passed, go and visit this U.S. citizen, the captain of the boat, who had been placed in jail, because—

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: The boat had left the Greek port. Now, why did the boat leave the Greek port? You know, 2 of those boats in the flotilla had been sabotaged, and there was every reason to expect that if you sat around and waited, eventually your turn would come along. And so a Greek independent judiciary team, when the captain finally did go before the judges, decided— they ruled that he was right in believing that he better kind of leave. make a break for it and leave that port. And so he was freed without needing to pay any bail, and the major charges were all dropped.

Desmina Mutzuras: That's good to hear. And recently also has been reported that no one from the U.S. consulate has visited the Audacity of Hope in the harbor, either, and the electricity has been cut off. And they're basically just 3 women there, you know, stranded, with no— support or even acknowledgment from their government, as just, you know, simply to make a visit to say, okay, are you still alive? Are you okay? Is there something that you need? It's almost as if they're just abandoned to their fate.

Speaker 3: Well, and with 100-degree temperatures, initially there were 6 women, and 4 of them over 60, and sweltering on that boat. And we've been calling the State Department very constantly and trying to clamor for some kind of Encouragement to the Greek government to restore shore power and at least let people have electricity. But it's really a shame that they were treated as though they were nonpeople. And it's not too late to call the State Department. One of the reasons we were thinking it's a good idea to call today is because Hillary Clinton is in Greece.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: And so it would be a good idea to I would encourage Hillary Clinton to speak out, although I think that her views on the flotilla were made clear when she suggested that this was a provocative action.

Desmina Mutzuras: Now, there were several opinions given as to what motivated the Greek government to take the actions that it took to sabotage the flotilla efforts, and there have also been viewpoints expressed about a dichotomy between the reactions of the Greek people and versus the Greek government. Myself, I am a dual national. I'm a citizen of both Greece and the U.S. So, I follow that quite closely in the press over there. And I want to know, what were the reactions of the Greek people to your flotilla? And what do you think actually motivated the Greek government to take the actions that it took on behalf of Israel.

Speaker 3: Well, of course, the development that's happening within Athens in the square called Syntagma Square is a brilliant demonstration of democracy at work. And people come together and have an assembly at 9 o'clock at night, and various affinity groups are well represented. It's really quite organized, and people have been occupying that square for many weeks. And our sense is that there's huge support for ending the siege against Gaza and for international civil society to take actions, and that Greek society in general was so supportive of the flotilla effort in the past that that's why so many of the ships were planning to leave from the ports in Greece. The Greek government has been engaging in joint military operations with the Israeli army, and to their governance this is seen as a big plus. I think that the competition, in a sense, between Greece and Turkey over the years has been affected now because some of the attentiveness that was given to perhaps tourism that could be steered toward Greece or cooperation with— tourism that could be steered toward Turkey has now been directed toward Greece. There's kind of a carrot that's been held out by the Israeli government: cooperate with us and we can make life more advantageous for you. But also the Greek government is right now in terrible straits financially. They've had draconian measures imposed on them. I mean, worse than what the most Republican hawk in the United States might ever imagine in terms of austerity measures that might be a consequence of the United States economy failing. And it's looking so bleak in the days ahead. And so the Greek government survived the no-confidence vote. And it looks as though they're wanting to be, I think, even subservient to the demands of other governments that could harm them, that could do even more to inflict punishment on Greece if it doesn't go along with demands that are being made of it by the IMF and the World Bank. By governments that— like that of the United States and Israel, which have now congratulated the Greek government and thanked the Greek government for going along with Israel's effort to stop the flotilla from oversailing. I mean, I should also mention that I'm from Illinois, and Senator Mark Kirk, for reasons I can't quite understand, called on U.S. Special Forces to cooperate with the Israeli government in disabling the flotilla.

Desmina Mutzuras: In addition to that, also, Israel, very similar to the actions that it's taken in the United States, has also tried to, you know, ingratiate itself with Europe for many years— I'd say probably even for decades— to see itself as like an outpost of European civilization in the Middle East. In addition to the reasons that you mentioned, the economic situation, closer military cooperation, in the case of Greece, also closer economic cooperation, talks about a pipeline and so forth, I think that there's also like an ideological collusion here with Zionism, because one of the things that the Israelis continually promote is how they're like a bulwark against, you know, fanatics in the Arab and the Muslim world. Unfortunately, on one level, I do believe that the Greek government and even some Greek people do collude with that particular sense. What's your response to that?

Speaker 3: Well, that may be one of the reasons why the government of Israel was almost panicked at the thought of people trying to come to Israel with the Flytila. You know, there were many efforts on the part of people from France and from Spain, from the United Kingdom. I participated myself, coming over from Greece, to enter into Israel and say very clearly, this is why I'm coming. And in the past, people have, you know, they've tried to finesse entrance into the country by giving any reason other than to say, I'm going because I want to be in solidarity with people in the West Bank and Gaza. Well, if people were part of this effort to to join in the Welcome to Palestine campaign, and they were known to be traveling for that purpose. They were stopped in the European capitals. They weren't even allowed to board the plane. I was able to get on a flight leaving Athens, but I was wearing a t-shirt that said USA Vote to Gaza. I had not said one word, and I was pulled out of the line for my t-shirt.

Desmina Mutzuras: The t-shirt got you in trouble.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And I was deported within 3 hours. So I think that it's a difficult reality when, you know, another country doesn't have even a tiny fraction of your military strength. And that's the case with regard to Gaza and the West Bank and Israel. People in Gaza and the West Bank have not even a tiny fraction of the military strength of Israel.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 3: Yeah. —of the weapon strength of Israel. But I would say that Israel has not even a tiny fraction of the moral grounding of people who are trapped in Gaza right now. And so, you know, the Israeli government doesn't want to have that reality exposed. And that's But projects like the flotilla, or, if you will, the flytila, but many, many other projects that have been going on are trying to expose that. You know, going back to that Operation Cast Lead, I certainly believe we must all feel remorse and regret for every family that's ever been traumatized or experienced bereavement in the villages that border Gaza, in Sderot and other places where rocket attacks But the disproportionate capacity of the Israeli government to kill and to destroy, which has been exercised, is appalling. I mean, there were at least 1,350 people killed. Over 300 of them were children in that Operation Cast Lead. And there were 11 people killed on the Israeli side, 4 of them Israeli soldiers killed by friendly fire.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 3: So what do you do with that kind of overwhelming capacity to kill? It gets exercised again and again. It happened in 2006 in the Hezbollah-Israeli summer war of 2006.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 3: Many of us who've been in the West Bank while villages or towns have been under siege and bombardment have seen this happen. I was in the Jenin camp.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: In 2002, and 100 3-story buildings were completely destroyed. You know, people were sifting through the rubble trying to find the remains of their loved ones. And this goes on and on and on. And so I think that there's certainly a desire on the part of the Israeli government to say that they're the They say they're representatives of democracy and ethical behavior, but it's simply not borne out in their actions.

Desmina Mutzuras: Right. Ultimately, what do you believe that Israel is afraid of? Why does it go to such extreme lengths to silence dissent and prevent any kind of truth about the reality of Gaza or Palestine or Palestinians?

Speaker 3: I think that this is a question that has to look backwards to the horrible history of the Holocaust and the persecution of Jewish people through many centuries. I think there's a sense that on the part of people who rise into governance of Israel that they have to hold the line, that they're responsible, that if they— Right. Waver, then they'll leave the state vulnerable to people who feel hatred and would want to persecute Israelis. And, of course, the terrible reality is that the more that Israel behaves as a menacing and a threatening and an unfair international outlaw, the more there is going to be a feeling of justifiable antagonism that That people will hold. And so I think that they're basically digging their grave, and maybe they know it, and that with that comes a terrible fear. But it doesn't have to go that way. I mean, I think that there are so many groups within Israel who have a much different vision, and it gets silenced and distanced from the mainstream. But you've got groups like the Israeli Coalition Against Housing Demolition, the— The Yesh Gavul, the Refuseniks, the Commandos for Peace, who refuse to serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, and when they go out and speak will only go out and speak if they've got a Palestinian at their side. There are many, many people, I think, within Israel who could hold forth a different vision that's grounded on rationality and real courage.

Desmina Mutzuras: What do you think are the accomplishments of the flotilla, despite the fact that you did not reach Gaza, even though there are still some ships that are attempting to go to Gaza today?

Speaker 3: Well, and we should, of course, remember that people still have the ships. I think, you know, the U.S. boat to Gaza had anticipated that the Israelis would board the boat and confiscate the boat. So it's not the end of flotilla actions, I think that a major accomplishment was that there was more exposure of Israel's refusal to allow people to enter into Gaza or even into the West Bank, and of the plight of people in Gaza, where there's such a huge difficulty in reconnecting reconstructing, because it's being treated almost as a huge open-air prison, and where doctors are sounding the alarm and saying we're running out of medicines, where the rate of unemployment is up around 65%. I think that these are awarenesses that are much more broadly shared. And that's because of the recent activity of the flotilla.

Desmina Mutzuras: Recently on The Electronic Intifada, in fact, I think it was just a few days ago, there was an article written by an Israeli-American freelance journalist, and she opined that actions like the flotilla and the involvement of international activists in the Welcome to Palestine campaign often unintentionally drown out real Palestinian voices by focusing, you know, on the situation and the chaos that's created when Israel attempts to block these activists. Do you agree or disagree with this view? Do you sometimes think that unintentionally, you may actually silence the very voices that you're trying to give a channel for expression?

Speaker 3: Well, we should always be open to that criticism and really examine how we are presenting our message. And it's difficult. Sometimes I think you can't hook people's interest unless there's some kind of a story that awakens people and makes them at least wonder, now, how come? Why are all these people sitting in a harbor and they're not being let go? And why are they being confined?

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 3: Please tell that story in order to make the hook. But I think that the reality is that many people in the United States have much more access to influencing— and it won't be a huge influence, but some influence will be accomplished— much more access to influencing media than people who are in Gaza who are getting maybe 4 to 8 hours of electricity. During an average day who don't have the capacity to amplify their voice because they are so isolated. And so we're the ones who have the tools at our disposal much more easily than people who are bearing the brunt of the wars. And so the criticism that should be listened too carefully. I sometimes say to myself, you know, if you wait till you're perfect, you're going to wait a very long time. But really, we have to be open to that criticism, and then go back to the drawing board and look at what we've written and see if it's self-serving rather than amplifying the voices of people whose voices we're trying to bring attention to in the first place. But, you know, on the other hand, having some kind of a story that awakens people is part of the political process in the United States.

Desmina Mutzuras: That's so very true. I remember sitting with the founder of this radio program, Sherif Fam, many, many years ago. And I remember her turning to me and saying, well, do you feel that— do you think that Palestine will ever be free? And, you know, there was such pain and anguish in his voice. And if you had known Sherif, he was very dedicated, committed. There was no one more passionate than him about Palestine. Palestine. And, you know, he also said to me, does anything we do, does this radio show, does it make a difference? And in light of those type of questions, how can people who care about Palestine and care about what's happening in their world keep their spirits up in the face of such oppression and injustice? And I know you have a long history of working against war and oppression. What insights do you have?

Speaker 3: Well, there's a woman named Muriel Lester, whom I've admired a great deal. She was a British activist. And she put it quite bluntly. She said, which side do you want to be on? You know, would you rather be on the side of the fat cats— that was her phrase— who are profiting from wars and promoting wars all over the planet? So, one of the things that I think helps keep spirits up is just a humble, grateful recognition But in doing the kind of work that we're doing— and maybe, you know, all of us are only planting seeds, and it's another generation in the future that we hope would, you know, reap a harvest— but you get the opportunity to rub shoulders with some of the finest people in the world. I mean, I certainly felt that even when I was in Gaza and it was under bombardment. I was living with a courageous—

Speaker 5: Yes.

Speaker 3: And, you know, young university students were guiding me to walk through the areas that had been bombed after the bombing ended, and I thought, these are some of the finest people in the world, given the trauma they've been through, that they're able to be as resilient as they are, and in fact to overcome bitterness as well as they did. So I think humble gratitude and finding kindred spirits among Having people that you're really fortunate to be with is one thing that helps kind of put wind back in one's sails and keep going. And then, of course, there's just the very utilitarian calculus that I mentioned before. You know, we have at our fingertips, many of us, several computers in our homes and these whiz-bang BlackBerry phone deals that you can take on the road with you and increasing capacity for social media. And so if we're sort of sitting on top of all kinds of resources, why ever in the world, given the comforts that we have comparatively— I mean, when I'm in a place with no electricity, you know, you do your best to adjust, but I'll tell you, it takes me 8 seconds to get adjusted to electricity when I come back home. You know, the lights are on and the computers are whirring, and I grow very, very accustomed Right. —relative to the pampered and luxurious life relative to where I've often been, if I've gone to particularly— particularly to a war zone and to places where there's intense impoverishment. So given that we have all these resources— and it's barely by accident where we were born; it's not like we did something to earn it— that others wouldn't have been able to accomplish had they had the good fortune to be born Born into an area where, you know, we're so protected from abject suffering. So use those resources. And so the other thing I learned in Iraq, sitting at the bedsides of children who would never go home and whose mothers were trying to adjust to the reality that they would eventually carry this beloved child to the cemetery, And they had more children that they hoped might survive. And I realized these women can't afford my despair. And I think that's true of many people who are trapped in the war zones, whether it's in Afghanistan or in North Waziristan or in Gaza, where United States weapons are pounding away, or weapons that we've given to other governments Like Israel are pounding away. The people there can't afford our despair. We're the ones who are, you know, directly responsible.

Desmina Mutzuras: And that's so very true. And unfortunately, we've run out of time, but I thank you so much, Kathy, for joining us today and sharing your voice with us. And we wish you—

Speaker 3: Thank you, Despina. I wonder if before saying goodbye, could I just mention the phone number that your listeners could call?

Desmina Mutzuras: Sure.

Speaker 3: The State Department Operations Center is open Today, and it's 202-547-4000, and that's the number that could be called to appeal to the State Department to free the boat that's still docked in a military harbor.

Desmina Mutzuras: Thank you so much for reminding us of that. Best of luck in your future endeavors. Take care.

Speaker 3: All right. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Speaker 2: Hi, everyone. Welcome again to This Week in Palestine. My name's Ken Barney. And each week we bring you this 45-minute program, news and discussion about the struggle of the Palestinian people against this colonization and ethnic cleansing of their land. This is a horror story that's been going on for more than 64 years. It's called the Nakba. Our perspective is, of course, not what you're going to find in the mainstream media. This program was created by the late Sherif Fam, and all of us are continuing to mourn the loss of our friend Sherif. He produced the program for many years, and now a small group of us are keeping the program going in his memory. Now, today, we're very fortunate to have with us, by telephone, Ridgely Fuller. She's our friend and fellow Boston-area activist. She just returned from Greece, back from the great flotilla initiative. This is Flotilla 2. A whole long list of internationals made the attempt to go to Gaza with this flotilla, leaving from many European countries. And originally, I think there were going to be maybe more than 15 boats. We wound up with about 12 boats. The one, of course, we are paying a bit more attention to is the boat called the Audacity of Hope. Ridgely was on that boat. And she's back now. So, we're— we got the opportunity to be talking to her.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 2: And, of course, on top of what has all happened with this flotilla, we have this great action, mainly at the airport in Israel, the Flytila action, where hundreds of international activists have made the attempt to go to Palestine and have been pretty much stopped, except for maybe about 50 Probably several hundred have been stopped one way or another. Either they've been stopped by the airlines in European countries, particularly Germany and France, especially de Gaulle Airport. And then, of course, those that did arrive in Ben Gurion pretty much did not get through. They were stopped there with a pretty chaotic and, I think, still ongoing scene.

Jihan Hafiz: And then, of course, those that did arrive in Ben Gurion pretty much did not get through.

Speaker 3: They were stopped there with a pretty chaotic and, I think, still ongoing scene.

Speaker 2: And been in the airport in Tel Aviv. At any rate, we want to talk to Ridgely. Just a word about Ridgely. Ridgely's a local person from Waltham. She's, you know, she's had a career in social work. She's been a Palestinian activist for quite some time now. I think first over there in 2002, she's been over there several times.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 2: times, most recently in April and then in May. And she went back to be sort of our representative, and we're really proud of her, from the Boston area, although there is another person from Massachusetts who was part of the flotilla, Paki Whalen. But so now we want to talk to Ridgely. Ridgely, are you there?

Speaker 5: I am. And thank you so much for having me, Ken. It's just such an honor and a privilege to be on this show and to have represented the Boston area. I really hope that I did an OK job for you all. And I felt really honored, and continue to. My— the welcome back has been as exuberant as my send-off. And I can talk a little bit about that, if you'd like. I'm up in Maine right now.

Speaker 3: Oh, wow.

Speaker 5: As you might know, and the peace vigil that I attend to— I attend on Fridays up here— had signs out for me for the flotilla, too, and Welcome Home Ridgely. So— and they passed out leaflets about Gaza and the flotilla. So, you know, our job is to keep this in the headlines, and I hope, hope that we're doing that.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, of course we're doing it. It's happening more in European countries, where at least there's a little bit of media coverage. I mean, we're still pretty much shut out from mainstream media, but, you know, here and there cracks are opening up. And, you know, it's been great. People are talking about it, and more and more activists are learning about it.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 2: Like, you know, it's too bad that you had to miss the 4th of July. I mean, you were over there, and here we were celebrating here, and all of us were down at the Hatch Shell singing all those songs, you know, God Bless America and and all that. I was trying to keep an eye out for, uh, Congressman McCarthy.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 2: Anyway, anyway, uh, we're gonna, you know, maybe a little later on you can, uh, tell our listeners how you celebrated 4th of July. But maybe first, um, tell, you know, give us, give us a little bit of your, your general feeling, your general impressions about, about the whole Well, I think first, you know, people ask me why I decided to do this, participate in the flotilla.

Speaker 5: And as you pointed out, I've, you know, I've been to the West Bank several times, and I've been to Gaza twice for 2 real meaningful trips. One was about 4 months after Operation Cast Lead that left over 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza dead, and most Right. —of the area destroyed. And then I went back last August, and I spent 2 weeks visiting a lot of the families that I had seen the previous year and working with social workers and young adults who were working with children. So I really got a sense of how Israel, through its continued blockade, was not allowing the Palestinians living there to recover. From the invasion, much less enjoys basic human rights of economic development, freedom of movement, access to medical care, education and all those things. So it became really apparent that, you know, the intransigence of Israel needed once again to be looked at in a very obvious and public way. And I think especially then when an American boat decided, or the US to Gaza group got together, and in response both to the ongoing blockade and to the invasion, as well as to the deaths that had happened on the first flotilla, they decided it was really important to have an American boat. And it was named the Audacity of Hope. And I really do, I believe that it was incredibly important to have this ship.

Speaker 2: And where'd that name come from, the Audacity of Hope?

Speaker 5: Well, of course, it was a Obama's book, right? Number one book. I think there's going to be a number 2 boat named after his number 2 book. But I think it was certainly very well named, and it was a very appropriate name. But I think for 2 reasons. One is because much of the world sees America as being so complicit with Israel, which indeed it is on so many levels. But still, the American people, I think, have a very different view, increasingly. The more information they get, the more they realize what is really going on in the oppression of Palestine. I'm always— I always remember, you know, that 4 months or 5 months after Obama was elected and there was that poll taken and that 71% of those who voted for Obama said that America should have a much stronger stand on Israel. And, of course, that has never happened. But so it shows me how the American public But given correct information, is way ahead of our government. And I felt like it was really important that the world, and especially the Palestinians, knew that there were so many Americans who were in solidarity with lifting the siege, lifting the occupation, lifting the apartheid, and really ensuring that Palestinians will enjoy justice and equality as every other human being in the world So, for me, that was a real important move, and I felt like it was important to get on that boat. I think in the future there may not be an American boat, that the Americans who want to participate in these kind of actions will join internationals on other boats, because most of the boats, as you know, are not necessarily owned or, you know, run by one country, but there are multiple countries and citizens of the world on them.

Desmina Mutzuras: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5: world represented on the other boats. So this was a really important experience. And I think that— I keep hearing, and, you know, being in kind of the eye of it, it's— and I really haven't had an opportunity to process how the world community has or is interpreting the flotilla, but it certainly seems like we were able to keep Gaza on the front page, and there's certainly The power of Israel on the front page for a much longer time. We continued to do that, you know, than if we had simply sailed and been picked up by commandos the way we were being trained to do.

Speaker 2: Well, I think so. I mean, in some ways, in a peculiar sense, this was a great success that maybe was not totally anticipated. I mean, you wanted to get to Gaza, I know.

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean, you weren't going to get to Gaza, but at least get close to Gaza and have all the drama being stopped in the water. But, I mean, in some ways, this whole huge story of how the major Western powers prevented— essentially working with Greece and putting this pressure on Greece stopped you right there in Athens. And in Greek ports. And in a sense, you were maybe more successful in dramatizing this whole dynamic of the Western powers' support for Zionism.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 2: You know, and their submission to the United States and the Zionist entity. In that sense, I think— were people surprised at being stopped in Athens?

Speaker 5: Yes. I mean, clearly, we were— you know, because our boat had been inspected, we'd been registered as a pleasure vehicle and inspected as a pleasure vehicle and given every indication that everything was in order. And then, all of a sudden, we got a complaint. And that complaint, as it turned out, was— came from the Israel Law Society. It's a group in Israel, a very right-wing group, that could issue a complaint. And in Greece, that was enough. —to tackle or to instigate another investigation. And so, once inspectors came onboard and looked around the ship, we had obviously nothing to hide. But then they didn't release any documents saying, you know, what their concerns were. And we could have been waiting there for weeks and months. And I think that was a bureaucratic intent, just to keep us there.

Speaker 3: And, actually, Right.

Speaker 5: What was very interesting is when we finally sailed and we were out, still in Greek waters, when we were stopped by the Coast Guard, they read the list of complaints to us in English. So, clearly, they had— the inspectors had the list of what they wanted us to do with the boat, but they just weren't giving it to us. You know, I mean, again, I think people talk about this as bureaucratic warfare. And this happened with all the other boats, as well. As you know, 2 of the boats were sabotaged. But the latest word on the Canadian boat, that felt like they had complied with all the inspectors' requirements and they were really getting set to sail, and they were— then the captain's license was mysteriously lost. And so, again, they weren't able to sail. So I think, you know, that certainly what this has shown is the reach of Israel in terms of Exporting the blockade of Gaza, as well as, you know, literally, I mean, it is also a siege of the West Bank as well, you know, and exporting it to Greece, and as we see through the flotilla that you mentioned, to other countries around Europe, which clearly were complicit in doing Israel's bidding in terms of what Israel wanted. But I think, you know, Netanyahu—

Speaker 2: You know, you've got to remember it's not It's not just what Israel wanted, it's what the United States wanted. It's what the European Union wanted. It's what the Western powers wanted, and their submission. It's not just Israel.

Speaker 5: Well, yeah. I mean, we were certainly seeing the hand of Israel, that Netanyahu went to the IMF and, you know, asking for funds and support for Greece during this time of incredible debt and economic struggle. And also that we know now that Greece has been offered a natural gas pipeline from Israeli waters, which are probably the same waters that, you know, natural gas has been discovered off the coast of Gaza. Of course, they can't access this. And this is part of what's being offered to— a pipeline to Greece from Israel.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, you know, a lot— there's going to be more said in coming weeks about this whole analysis of what happened, and I know people, including media, Benjamin, you know, immediately jumped on the idea that because of the crisis with the Greek economy, that that's a big part of the reason that this happened. There may be something to that, but I think some of us would still argue that Greece is part of, you know, it's part of Europe, and that even without the crisis in their economy, that something like this probably would have happened, you know, even without this crisis. So, again, there's going to be a lot more said about that. Right. Right. And actually, I wanted to ask you about the embassy. Supposedly, there were communications received directly? Is it surprising to some of you that the U.S. Embassy was directly involved in giving messages to the Greeks that those boats should not come?

Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, first, I think you have to understand— and I'm not sure if it's true in other parts of the world— but the U.S. Embassy, both in Jerusalem, or, you know, the consulate in Jerusalem, the embassy in Tel Aviv, as well as the embassy in Greece, you know, does not protect U.S. citizens at all, and it doesn't ensure that we're able to use our— the rights that we're accustomed to, even though they've been so limited in the United States. We still do have few rights here that we were clearly not able to exercise in Greece. And that was, as I understand, even from talking to the Greek police, when we were repeatedly picked up by nonviolently demonstrating —waiting in front of both the embassy and the ambassador's residence, that the calls came from the U.S. Embassy to undertake that action, that the Greek police had no intention of disturbing us. I mean, the first time this happened was on the night of July 3rd, when there were a number of Americans engaged in a hunger strike in front of the embassy, just peacefully at night, and the police came and detained them.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 5: Then, when I was involved on Independence Day, I discovered where the ambassador lived, which was— and there was a little public park right across the street. And so we set up a, you know, we set up our symbols and our signs, Free Gaza, End the Siege, U.S. boats, let them go, across from the ambassador's residence. And probably within 15 minutes— there were only 6, there was 3 police cars swooped down on us. And, you know, the United States—

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: I'm really used to the police giving us 5 minutes to make a decision as to whether we'd leave or not. We weren't given that choice. We weren't able to say we want— we could move back to our former location. And we were really physically— I was physically— this is not happening in the United States— dragged to the police car. And then, once we were detained, it was very interesting. First, they went through our passports.

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: They looked at our passports numerous times and took down our names. You know, some of those with us had just been detained not even 12 hours earlier. And then another group of plainclothesmen came in, and one of them said that he was from the international— it was a Greek terrorist squad— and that he wanted to see our passports again because there was new information, and that this had come as a request from the U.S. Embassy. And other people were detained. The police, you know, said the same thing, that they normally would not have picked us up if we were Greeks.

Speaker 2: Ray, do you think— did you get the impression, though, that maybe the Greek authorities and the police would not have normally done this, but it was only because of this tremendous pressure that they were getting from the United States and Israel and from the Western powers?

Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, they told us that. You know, they told us they wouldn't have picked us up if we were Greeks, or if they had, we would have been out of their— the police station And, you know, we were kept several hours, 3 or 4 hours, both times. And, you know, I was very concerned, because we had a woman with us who was not allowed to retrieve her medication, and she really needed some medication pretty badly. So there was a medical issue involved, too. But this— the police from this supposed terrorist squad, you know, he was saying that they were I mean, I don't know. He was willing to talk to us in a lot— in a way that was— felt freer than I'd heard in the United States or from others. And we asked him where his training was, and he said from the CIA, from, you know, NSA and from Britain. And then we asked about Israel, and he said, yeah, they do the training in gas.

Speaker 3: Hmm.

Speaker 5: You know, he told us about a hit squad that, you know, was really aimed to kill. Because we had asked him if they would have killed us if they'd been given the orders, and he said he wasn't sure. It was pretty amazing, you know.

Speaker 2: Were some of these people sympathetic? Did they seem to be?

Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely. As I was leaving the police station, you know, there was a policeman in one of those little guard towers, and I spoke to him. I said, I understand this, that detaining us came from the United States Embassy, the order. And he nodded. And I said, you know, it's not good for Greece to listen to the United States. And he nodded very enthusiastically. So, I mean, this is pretty common. You know, the police are suffering under that economy, as well. I mean, the economy of Greece has really been devastated. And it's as part of the— they've lost any kind of sovereignty as part of the EU, and just regular people, you know, their pensions are being cut 35% on this round, and they've already been cut before. So people are really suffering in Greece.

Speaker 2: Sounds like you accomplished a lot of education right there in Greece with the Greek people. And I have to ask you, how did the Greek papers respond to all this? What was happening with Greek papers while all this was going on?

Speaker 5: Well, that's interesting, 'cause I don't read Greek, so I really don't know. And actually, I don't know if we We were paying not well enough attention to Greek papers. But the night of the 3rd of July, when our captain had already been arrested, I mean, what was going on in this area called Syntagma Square, which would have been a lot like Tahrir Square in Egypt, you know, where thousands and thousands of people were camping out and having these incredible popular assemblies where they would take votes and have discussions all during the day, and we were allowed to kind to come and talk about the flotilla. We were given so much support for that. And then, when our captain was arrested, people went back to the Popular Assembly, and they agreed to have a massive demonstration. And that demonstration just kind of spontaneously happened the next night, which would have been July 3rd, and marched through— we took subways. Nobody paid any anything, you know, to get on the subway. It was just hundreds of maybe thousands of people who just massively went through the subway system and went down to all these different places, including the American Embassy and the Israeli Embassy. But so I looked in the paper the next day, just because there was a lot of great coverage of that, and it was all headlines, you know, and pictures of us on all the front page in all the local newspapers. So I think at one It was covered in the Greek press in ways that probably we didn't pay as much attention to, because, you know, on our boat we had— you know, when you talk about mainstream media, we had— CBS was on there. We had a New York Times reporter on there, as well as we had Democracy Now! that provided a lot of, as I understand, kind of ongoing coverage. But I was surprised that NPR's Sylvia Paglioli came in.

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: CNN interviewed us in Athens. We were on a Russian— interviewed by a Russian TV station. So I think in terms of mainstream media, you know, we were more interested in how the flotilla was being treated there rather than in the Greek press. So I was really delighted to see all these pictures, and there was a lot of support.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw your picture on that one video. I guess it was the final video. You know, the final little celebration where you were all lined up with all these flags together and everybody in a line waving and smiling. And actually, people looked— you actually looked pretty happy.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And you should have been, you know.

Desmina Mutzuras: Well—

Speaker 2: But I noticed one thing I noticed was a little weird. It was that where you were standing, you seemed to be holding a Canadian flag. And I was starting to wonder, well, maybe originally— maybe originally what's But Canada doesn't want us anymore.

Speaker 5: You know, they've said they don't want us anymore. So, no, I think that was a measure of the internationalness of the whole flotilla, is that we just would have stood wherever there was room. And from that lineup in Syntagma Square, we had massive Greek drummers. I don't know if you could hear them.

Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5: But we went down to the Spanish Embassy. —where the Spanish passengers had occupied their embassy.

Desmina Mutzuras: Right.

Speaker 5: And that was incredibly exciting. So we walked down there. I guess what had happened, from what I understand, is that they— one passenger had gone in, or a member of the crew had gone in, to talk to the ambassador about mediating to get their boat out of dry dock— or out of the dock, to be able to let their boat sail. And during that meeting with the ambassador—

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: —looking for that kind of mediation, I think there were something like 20 or so Spaniards came into the embassy and really took it over. And so when we went down there, it was wonderful, the solidarity. And I really wish that the Palestinians that I know, both in the West Bank and in Gaza, had been able to really feel the kind of support and real warmth and love that all these internationals, you know, have and really believe in this But don't you think the messages are getting back, have been getting back to Palestine? I really hope so. I mean, I had— it was encouraging for me, you know, 'cause I certainly work in my little piece of Boston in Waltham, and I had no idea, you know, that the international community— and, see, when you talk about the international community, you talk— you're talking about Right. About the governments that are still in collusion and cahoots and stuff in Israel and working together. But I really believe, you know, that the people of the world, and especially of Europe, have certainly gotten this message. And I had no idea of the amount of solidarity. You know, when you walk down a street in Athens— and, again, the protesters there just take over the streets. There's no question. There's no police presence at all. You just walk down the main thoroughfares. And when there are all these songs and chants about Palestine and passersby in cafes and they're putting up the V sign, you know, it's clear that the government of Greece is not reflecting the people of Greece. And it really reminds me of what happened in Egypt. And I think we just have to figure out how to turn our power into real political power.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if one day we'll have those kind of experiences here in Boston. Not for a while.

Speaker 5: Well, I think it's changing, though. You know, I mean, I had an email list, and I just assumed that everybody always agrees with me, which is a way easier assumption to make. And I had people who were much more kind of of the liberal kind of persuasion, probably, than I am, and they were on my list. And they emailed me and said they had no idea of what was going on with Israel and Gaza. They had absolutely no idea, and that they were really getting— feeling like they were getting important information. So, I mean, I really do believe that, you know, we just have to figure out how to keep building on all of this, on all of this change that's happening.

Speaker 2: Well, you know, the BDS movement, of course, is leading the way, and, uh, and this was all part of it.

Speaker 5: It is.

Speaker 2: It's one more incredibly brilliant creative action.

Speaker 5: Yeah, well—

Speaker 2: I mean, every day people are trying to figure out, you know, how to break open all this false consciousness and ignorance.

Speaker 5: Right. Well, before, you know, before I went in the flotilla, I was in Washington, D.C. with, um, the Move Over AIPAC conference, and it was held the same weekend as the AIPAC conference itself. And that's, of course, the Israeli lobby, the main arm of the Israeli lobby. And it was— I was amazed in talking to delegates from the AIPAC conference how they were parroting a line but really had very little knowledge. I mean, some people were really saying there's no occupation of Palestine. Other people insisted on calling Palestinians Pakistanis. And these were, you know, among all of those delegates. Right. So, I think that we have to understand the strength of the Israel lobby and how that works in conjunction with our own government. I mean, I'm appalled to realize that during the time that I was gone is that Massachusetts has signed a trade deal with Israel during a time when much of the world is looking at divestment, is that our state government is actually implementing an investment scheme. And, you know, I mean, I'm not sure how much people in Massachusetts are aware of this, but, you know, I think, you know, I would suspect that it's because Steve Grossman now is our Secretary of Treasurer. And as you know, he was a former president of AIPAC and still sits on the AIPAC board of directors. And all during his campaign, we kept confronting him at least to put this information on his website, because Because we felt very strongly that Massachusetts had a right to know exactly what interests he was bringing to the job as secretary-treasurer of the state. And he refused to do that. He refused to acknowledge any of his Israel lobby connections. And I think now, you know, he hasn't even been in office for a year, and we're already starting to see what he intends to do. Right.

Speaker 2: I mean, in a sense, Patrick's analogous to Obama. You know, both of them very consciously surround themselves with Zionists.

Speaker 5: Well, that— you know, Patrick hasn't taken those steps until Steve Grossman now is in power. And Steve Grossman, you know, he led the charge to divest the Massachusetts pension funds from its investment in Iran, which Which is costing Massachusetts a lot of money. A lot of research has been done on that. You know, we had $450 million invested in Iranian securities or the stock markets, and it's going to cost us at least $5 million in transaction fees to divest and over $40,000 a year, which— and this money, you know, could be used to— for the pensions for our teachers and, you know, state workers. So—

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: And Steve Grossman, although the divestment from Iranian stock market didn't make it into the media here, it was very quiet and done under the radar and right before the vacation of the— whatever you call it, you know, when they left. I think it was 2 or 3 days before the legislature adjourned. But he was in Jerusalem and talking about it in the Israeli media, saying that he was really looking forward to divesting from— Oil. From Iran, and so it's it's very clear the direction. I'm very concerned. I don't know the cost that this kind of investment will have for Massachusetts and us as taxpayers. How the money could be better spent, but I certainly think the public should know about it and that that we should have some accountability. And again, you know most of us are talking about that it's important to divest as we did from South Africa. during the apartheid time, and not be investing. So this will be another challenge for activists and progressives and people of conscience in Massachusetts to look into this.

Speaker 2: Of course, you know, we have the same mainstream media problem that they have everywhere, and maybe it's a little bit worse because of the Boston Globe.

Speaker 5: You know, I'm not sure what the coverage has been in the Boston Globe of the flotilla or You know, certainly Steve Grossman, when he was running, we wrote numerous letters, and none of them were published, you know, about his background. And none of those were published. So I'm not really sure. You know, they don't provide us with a lot of coverage. I know that subsequent to his election, there was some issue about the money he was raising, and that made it into The Globe. Right. And there was a cartoon, and I actually contacted the writer who had broken the story about him raising money from a variety of sources, and I told him about Steve Grossman's AIPAC connection, and he hadn't known about that either. So a lot of this is kept under wraps, and we have to figure out a way to make the media more responsible so that taxpayers and citizens, as well as, you know, the public, get to know what the real truth is in terms of how our government's operating.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, this is a real challenge. We're up against the owners and editors of the Boston Globe. I mean, just to speak of, you know, one paper in one area.

Speaker 5: I tried several times to get an op-ed published in the Boston Globe.

Speaker 2: Let me interrupt, you know, just let me break in a a little bit, because we don't have too much time left, and I want to ask you a couple more questions about— I mean, some of the people on your boat were— some of them were better known than others. Alice Walker, Kathy Kelly, Hedy Epstein, maybe Ray McGovern.

Speaker 5: Wonderful people.

Speaker 2: I mean, here in Boston, you're the best known. But do you want to say anything about some of your new friends?

Speaker 5: You know, certainly Ray McGovern and Ken Meyers from the Veterans Peace, as well as Nick. But Ken Meyers and Ray McGovern, from the Veterans for Peace, are just outstanding. I spent a lot of time with them. Nick was actually more on our well-being committee. He had to deal with hotel reservations and stuff like that, so I didn't get to know him as well. And, of course, Ann Wright, who was one of the Veterans for Peace. But—

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: And I do want to mention, you know, that on October 6th, they're going to start the Trier Square down in D.C. And it is a website. And I hope that there'll be a huge contingent from Boston going down, really, to make it our campout down there and support. So they were outstanding. And they were, I think, arrested or detained, certainly, at every available time. Hedy Epstein was wonderful. She, unfortunately, was injured. Her leg— she cut her leg the first night that she wanted to spend on the boat.

Speaker 2: Oh, my God.

Speaker 5: You know, and the twinkle in her eye is something that just inspires and gives so many of us such confidence to kind of keep moving on. And so she has— I've never seen a twinkle like that. And, of course, Kathy Kelly is wonderful. She's been doing some writing that I hope people have a chance to read. And she was in that initial press conference before we even sailed from New York. And she's just so expressive.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh, she and Missy were the 2 that decided to fly the Ben-Gurion.

Speaker 5: Right, right, right, the flotilla. And I think—

Speaker 2: And they've either been deported or detained?

Speaker 5: Yes, they were deported very quickly. They didn't experience the detention. I think they just were turned around and sent back. But what I'm just understanding is that over 32 people have been detained, and in a very kind of violent way. And they haven't been released yet. Again, you know, these are— their airlines— many people were stopped by their airlines, including Air France, Alitalia, Hungarian airline, EasyJet.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, they couldn't even get to Ben Gurion, again, which I think shows Israel's, you know, exporting of this embargo and the blockade and just refusal to let any kind of nonviolent resistance You know, the Western powers submitted. Those airlines submitted. Yeah. Yeah. They certainly did. I don't know if anybody expected the airlines in the home countries— and I guess in France the police were even told not to take complaints from passengers who weren't able to board Air France. So, I mean, it's very clear. You know, that the citizens, the residents, people of the world really begin to realize, you know, who's in control and what we need to do in order to exercise basic rights on our own behalf and on behalf of others that don't have the privilege that we do. So, you know, that's certainly a story that's still unfolding. I understand there are internationals in Ramallah and Bethlehem now that are doing nonviolent protests that certainly— Right. Illustrate, the same way we were illustrating, that our presence in Palestine is a nonviolent one and that we have no intention of, you know, jeopardizing anyone else's security. It's just making our presence, and I think standing in solidarity with Palestine, which is, I think, what the flotilla ultimately did, is it really showed the world that much, much of the world stands in solidarity with Palestine. And that's an important message.

Speaker 2: Right. And, of course, you know, I know I'm repeating this, but, you know, you're quite right about that. But at the same time, the Western power governments are certainly not in solidarity with the Palestinian people. In fact, they're supporting Zionism.

Speaker 5: Yeah. I think that, you know, the difference and the split between governments and the people is just becoming more and more apparent. And of course, I recognize everybody, you know, I'd recommend everybody read Shock Doctrine. But clearly, what's happening in Greece and in much of the world, in the United States as well.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, you've done a great job, and I mean, it's just going to continue on. Actually, there's going to be a lot more writing about this. You know, we're just hearing the first part of this. There's going to be a lot more follow-up and analysis and writing, and certainly, you On, for example, Alice Walker. I'm sure we're all looking forward to what she's now writing about this.

Speaker 5: Right. Yeah, she is. She's amazing. She's just— I mean, she's the one who really—

Speaker 2: Did you get to talk to her a bit?

Speaker 5: A lot. She was just wonderful, you know. And I think her kind of analysis of— because, as you know, all we were taking was letters from the United States to the people of Gaza, solidarity letters. And so ours was a mail boat. And she said, Yeah. You know, the IDF coming after this mailboat is like sending a dog after the mailman, you know, that we were so harmless. And she has such a beautiful way of capturing that kind of spirit. So she certainly was a very important spokesperson for us in many press conferences, and will continue to be, especially as she talks, you know, about this movement as being similar to the civil rights movement in the United States. States or the Freedom Riders going south, not knowing what happened to them, but knowing that it was an important issue and that equality throughout the world is something that's worth sacrificing well-being for, for those of us who are more privileged.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we'll be hearing more from her, more from you, and more from everybody about this. Yeah, especially this whole— the whole matter of how the messages were transmitted to these governments, whether it was done through the American embassies or Israeli embassies or— I mean, maybe that's not so important, but I think there's got to be a whole lot more said about all these, you know, disgusting connections that were made very directly and probably not even secretly.

Jihan Hafiz: Right.

Speaker 2: By maybe some of them secretly, between the various governments, to stop you, to stop you folks. So tell— are you, at the moment, are you planning to have more interviews or talks, or what's on the— what's coming up for you?

Speaker 5: Well, of course, for me, the commitment is to keep informing people about what is going on with Palestine and the oppression the Palestinians have faced for so many years. And so, you know, that's my commitment. And however I can make that happen, you know, I really welcome the opportunity. Hopefully, I'm going to be— well, first, I think your listeners should know is that next Sunday I'll be at the community church, and then the Tuesday after— so that's the 17th, and then That's around 11:00. It'll be on the internet. And then Tuesday evening, probably around 7:00, I'll be at the Cambridge Friends meeting to— and I'll show some pictures. And again, we can talk about the flotilla in terms of how successful was it. It certainly ended in a way that— or hasn't ended, it proceeded in a way that we hadn't anticipated at all, even though I think there probably were signs.

Speaker 3: Sure.

Speaker 5: I remember in Cambridge, Talking about one of the questions being whether we would even be allowed to sail. And I think in Haaretz, you know, there was a lot of articles saying that the Greece of May of 2011 is not the Greece of May of 2010, that a lot has happened in terms of the Greek economy, as well as the overtures that Israel has made. Mm-hmm. Went to Greece for the first time. I think an Israeli prime minister went— visited Greece in many, many years. And so that was in February 2010. And, you know, one of the things that's interesting is that Greece is still very much— reacts to Turkey, and there's a lot of animosity still between those 2 countries. And that's a split that can be exploited by Western powers. And certainly, you know, it was by Israel. For example, a lot of the tourism that used to go to Turkey now is being directed to Greece. This, you know, Israeli tourism is now being directed to Greece. So there are a lot of ways that splits can be widened and maintained and used to the advantage of, as you say, the Western powers. I mean, we know how successfully the United States has done that in Iraq in terms of the—

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 5: The Shia and the Sunni, and as well as in Afghanistan, you know, that splitting populations and countries is something that we seem to do very well.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we're probably going to have to stop pretty soon. I mean, we— you know, there's still a lot more to say, and we're keeping our eye on those 2 boats, the Tahrir and the—

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 2: The Giuliano, the Swedish-Norwegian ship. But, you know, we know the same thing is going to happen to them. They're going to get stopped from leaving.

Speaker 5: Well, as I said, you know, the career— again, the captain's license has been lost. The French boat— there is a French boat out there, and some people are hoping that— you know, there's boats coming from South Africa that will perhaps bring—

Speaker 2: Oh, that's right. Yeah, right. I should mention that.

Speaker 5: But, you know, and I think some of these boats, including the Audacity of Hope, will be sailing around the Mediterranean. With our letters aboard, it will be going into ports around the Mediterranean, doing education and information about Gaza, about the flotilla. And we'll be waiting for the next opportunity to free the seacoast of Gaza. You know, the Greeks are— the Greek people are horrified by Israeli control of the Mediterranean.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 5: They told me over and over again how for thousands of years the Mediterranean has proudly been free for all seafarers, and that this is really— this really strikes to their core, being a seafaring nation, that Israel is assuming control of who— how the Mediterranean is being used. So, Amin again—

Speaker 2: Originally, you know, we've run out of time.

Speaker 5: Great. Well, it was awesome talking to you, Karen. I just thank the Boston community so much for all the love and support, and they've given me a lot of confidence. So, I thank you.

Speaker 2: Well, you know how much we appreciate you. And, you know, we'll have more of a chance to talk with you—

Speaker 5: Awesome.

Speaker 2: —with upcoming stuff.

Speaker 3: Great.

Speaker 2: So, you take care. We'll see you soon.

Speaker 5: OK. Thanks a lot, Ken. And thanks a lot. Have a great Sunday. It's beautiful up here. Take care.

Speaker 2: OK. You know, reminding you that you've been listening to an interview with Ridgely Fuller, a local activist who just returned from Greece, where she was part of this great flotilla action that you just heard about, you know, the— on the Audacity of Hope, with all those other Americans. And, you know, we know that this voyage to Gaza may have been temporarily stopped. By the submission of the Greek government to the U.S. and the Western powers, you know, all continuing to submit to Israel and Zionism. But the struggle goes on. The people aboard these boats in this flotilla and future flotillas, you know, they're going to get to Palestine eventually. They'll get there and And most important, at some point, the Palestinian people will return to their land, the whole land of Palestine.