Iran at War Sovereignty against Empire Helyeh Doutaghi

Adnan Hussain: Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Salam, hello, peace to you all, and welcome to a very special edition of the program. I'm Adnan Hussain, historian of the medieval Mediterranean and Islamicate world, back with a very important conversation and a wonderful opportunity for us to learn more about what's happening in Iran from somebody who is there in Tehran right now. I'm really delighted to be able to welcome, I think, for the first time to the program, Dr. Helya Duttari, who is a legal scholar and currently postdoctoral fellow and researcher at University of Tehran. Helya, it's so great to see you.

Helyeh Doutaghi: Salam Adnan. Thank you very much for having me. I've been, you know, I've been a fan for a very long time. So I'm really I was really looking forward to this conversation and I'm really grateful for having me.

Adnan Hussain: Well, we're very grateful for you taking the time under, of course, very difficult circumstances. Iran is at war. The Ramadan war has entered its second month. So I don't know if we should still call it. I mean, we'll call it the Ramadan war because that's when it began. And that gave it a lot of its important character, which I think we will also want to talk about. But it is entering its second month. And we are very grateful that you have been providing when you can various updates. interviews with people and also sharing your thoughts and reflections on social media and on other programs. And so I just wanted to ask, what are conditions like now at the beginning of the second month of this war? How are I know that it's still part of the Noru's holiday period. So a lot of people are outside of Tehran and there was preceding or right around the same time was, of course, the Eid festival. And so there were a lot of reasons for people to go back to their homes. home villages or other parts of the country. I know many people went and visited Mashhad during this time. A friend and colleague, former student, Milad Dokhanji, I was so glad to hear from him, sent me a communication from Mashhad where he was visiting Imam Reza's tomb. So people are outside of the city and taking the opportunity you know, for these celebrations, which itself is already amazing that amidst war, people can still find something to celebrate and spend time with their families and do this in a different way. But I think people would love to know more about how this experience has been right now. You know, so what can you tell us about the situation on the streets and under the bombardment?

Helyeh Doutaghi: Yeah, you know, as you said, we're still we're approaching the end of Norway's holiday and all of it, you know, from the very beginning of war, I would say it's been life affirming. People have been practicing life, have been insisting on continuing, you know, and there has been different forms of resilience. Some, as you mentioned, they're traveling abroad. across the country. I know people who stayed here, despite the fact that they travel every Nowruz, they wanted to make sure that Tehran also remains alive and remains lively during the holiday and it's not empty. And so I know beyond the essential shops, the bakeries, the essential needs, we have flower shops that in different neighborhoods are open and remain open. And we have people who are volunteering to wash rugs. I know collectives that are washing rugs for people, both for Nowruz holiday, because we have this tradition where we do a deep clean of our homes. of our homes right before Nowruz. And some people did not have the opportunity to do so because of the war, and they are choosing to do that. And also, the ones that I'm talking about, the ones that are helping people wash their logs or clean. They've also been helping those families who have been impacted. Their homes have been targeted or they've been impacted in another way. So they're helping for them to, I guess, find whatever remains of their house and clean it and make it of use again. And, you know, others remain in the streets. I was every time, right now I'm close to The University of Tehran, every time, and I usually like to come here to do interviews, and every time that I want to leave, especially at night, I'm stuck in like heavy traffic to get back home because of the rallies that take place on a daily basis here. And it hasn't changed for the past week. over a month now. And it's incredibly impressive. You know, I personally, I may feel a little bit drained at this point, you know, feeling a little bit tired, you know, in the evenings if I want to go out and participate and I try my best to do it. But it's just incredible to see that people remain as steadfast as we enter the second month. So, yeah, there has been a lot of that affirming life, keeping on going. And it's been these moments offer really emotional relief and a sense of continuity with normal culture life, even, you know, under bombardment. But beyond that, we've been seeing militarily as well, we've been seeing the intensity of the attacks on infrastructures, on universities, and on still like civilian objects. the US Zionist forces continue to target civilian objects and infrastructures. And last night, I barely got any sleep. I got my coffee as I was here on my way here. I kept waking up to bombs. It was hard. It was nearly impossible to get any sleep. So it's been intensifying for the past few days, for sure. But yeah, people seem to... People seem more ready to come back towards the end of holidays. We're going to see a busier Tehran, I believe. So people are returning to Tehran. And those who have experienced living during the eight-year Western-backed aggression in the Iraq-Iran war, I think they are... recollecting those memories or starting to, I guess, pass that on to the new generation as well, in case this is going to be a longer war, because they know how to do it. They know how to live under, under war, under aggression for a longer period of time. And I think this is the phase that we're going to be entering once the new, the new year holiday is over and all those holidays over and people will start getting back because financially too, you know, there's been a lot of, on people who have businesses, on people who depend on their daily earnings to be able to pay their bills at the end of the month. And we're starting the second month. People need to go back to their businesses. People need to get back to their economy, needs to wake up a little after the holiday. So I think we're going to see a busier Tehran and busier cities and busier life.

Adnan Hussain: Yes. One thing you said that just reminded me when I was briefly in Tehran in December before the start of the economic protests as a result of the currency devaluation and manipulation by U.S. Treasury and so forth. But one thing when you were describing the beautiful traditions of like spring cleaning before Nowruz and the flower shops is how much and how important beauty is in Persian culture, like the city. I mean, Tehran is not architecturally a gorgeous city. It's a more recent modern one. It's not like Isfahan, which I hope to visit, but I've seen pictures where you have a lot of traditional and monumental Islamic architecture. It's a newer, more modern city, but still Like along the streets, every kind of blank wall that you find on the street, somebody has painted a beautiful mural. Sometimes these are political themes. Other times it's just a field of flowers. And so that's something that I think would be nice for people to recognize and understand that there's this real kind of commitment and love of beauty. beautiful things and making the place look beautiful. And so to keep that up even amidst war and rubble and these attacks is also a testament to the spirit of the people. But you mentioned the attack on civilian infrastructure. And this is something that, of course, we've seen so much of in the recent Gaza genocide, the devastations in Beirut during the war on Lebanon that has really you know, restarted more directly, but had been going on in its own way for 15 months where civilian infrastructure, you know, has been attacked in various ways. But especially you mentioned the university. This war started with an attack on a school for girls with 168 school age girls being, you know, massacred and murdered. So perhaps it shouldn't be so surprising that now they've also started attacking universities. But maybe you could tell us a little bit about the significance of this recent attack on a university research facility for science and technology that happened recently and that you've reported on.

Helyeh Doutaghi: Yeah, just a point of clarification on Minob as well. I know it was initially widely reported that it was only Geralds. It wasn't the over 168. Students between the age of 6 and 12 that were killed were both boys and girls at the elementary school. And I might be traveling soon to the South this week. And hopefully we can have another conversation once I go there and visit. And we'll see if I can talk to families. It's very hard also. uh from you know my experience it's been very hard to talk to grieving families it's just a really heavy um thing to do for for either parties really but anyway i i yeah it's the university i visited um the same day that it was attacked i was able to go visit the university it was and I've written this elsewhere, honestly, it's been really devastating for me as an academic to, as I was walking and I was seeing the hallways of the university, I could totally, I was, you know, I spent a lot of, many years at Carleton University, for instance, and a lot of hallways, a lot of classrooms would remind me of my days as a student in there. And just the thought of, of having my academic home destroyed as I was walking through it and talking to students, it was devastating. I saw the offices of professors who still had their suits. We always have an extra suit in your office just in case you need it. I saw those that were still there. you know, shattered libraries and assignments of the students was just laid at one of the desks of the professors. The list of attendance was also like half burned on a paper. But what was really incredible when I was talking to both faculty members and students For me, and it never... It is still... One month later, it hasn't, for me, lost its... I guess, how special it is. And it is their resolve. I don't see defeat. I don't see hopelessness. They were... determined to, you know, the research facility that was bombed. And it was also the Department of Physics. It was the Ma'aref Department, which provides, you know, social sciences prerequisite courses. And it was their like mini version of like uni center that was that was also impacted where they where they held their exams, where they held the auditorium, their socials. But the research center that was also one of the main targets was home for production of civilian satellites in Iran. including Omid satellite and Zafar satellite. And this is not to say that those were destroyed or destructed, but I'm just saying the university is a place where these research and developments were taking place. And these satellites provide important industrial development to Iran in a sense that they have, you know, they visit, they do mapping, they help with agriculture research. And that's the target. That is the pattern of sanctions, assassinations. military attacks, covert operations. It's a clear pattern of the development and the industrialization of the country, precisely because it is the indigenous homegrown defense industries and beyond that has been helping Iran, that has been key to Iran's assertion of sovereignty and defending itself and supporting providing material support to anti-colonial regional movements in the region. So, yeah. And when I talk to faculties, I asked, and maybe this report will be coming out. I asked one of the faculties, what is your message to your colleagues in the West? And he said, at this point, we're just gonna ask them for themselves to judge them. We're not gonna judge them. We're not gonna tell them anything. We want them to hold themselves accountable and see which side of history they stand on. So be the judge of yourself, he said. And another faculty told me that the research center that was the effort of 20 years of research and efforts of the university members and community members of the university, he was certain and he was confident that it was gonna be rebuilt in less than two years with more advanced technology. And he said, you know, when they targeted the nuclear scientist a few years ago, when there was a round of assassination of nuclear scientists, there were many young Iranians who signed up to study nuclear science. They wanted to volunteer to go to that field. And he was certain that we're going to see another round of students who are going to sign up to advance anything that is being targeted in a STEM field. And my talks with the students also affirmed this. and their determination to do so.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, that's a remarkable boomerang effect of the violent attacks by empire. They don't seem to understand that this, in fact, actually just increases the resolve. I remember hearing about the great popularity of nuclear physics and nuclear engineering as fields after these attacks, and also the history of sanctions upon you know iran's nuclear program its civilian peaceful nuclear program there was a very good documentary by ali aliza english about iran's nuclear program on his channel and they did talk about the popularity of it once it became you know politicized and a target of u.s sanctions So we can hope and expect that the very educated students who have already demonstrated, you know, the young engineers, both men and women. And this is something that also should be emphasized to the audience of like the greater percentage of STEM students and engineers and people receiving PhDs in science, technology, engineering, math are women. So many of these military technologies that have been astonishing the world, you know, well, principally the West that had these ideas that Iran didn't have any serious capabilities after 47 years of sanctions and pressure. It's actually many of them have been designed, developed. And built by by women. So that's something that we definitely expect and hope to see. But one thing I wanted to ask about it further. I know you will have a report on this, but you did post something around the Western academics, complicity in their own both complicity in their own what we could call a state system, you know, where the universities and the knowledge sector are actually contributing to, you know, Western empire, but also their shocking lack of knowledge. solidarity um you know this is hard for people you know in the academy to hear many of whom who think of themselves as very liberal very conscious and have been in favor of you know many of them some of them have been you know in favor of solidarity with palestine in a way but haven't really taken full responsibility for what they can do. That I think you posted something about how it's two and a half years and many academics still debating whether they should do BDS for Gaza. I mean, we saw scholasticide in Gaza. So it's no wonder that if we become allowed the Gaza paradigm and model to become normalized, that, you know, when it's happened now to Iranians in educational institutions and research facilities, that there's almost no discussion of this. It's not considered even an issue for so many people. So I'm a little concerned actually about this person, you know, the person you interviewed from the faculty saying, oh, we should leave it to, we just leave it to their conscience. I mean, of course, it's frustrating to keep showing and saying, but I don't have a lot of hope that there's the self-examination, you know. But so this is a big problem or a big question. You're somebody who's been educated in, you know, universities in Canada, right? How would you kind of like speak to people about, you know, the real fundamental issues that if you are an educator, you know, what should you know and understand about silence in the face of attacks on Iran's higher education, as well as, of course, if you want to connect it to the scholastic side we've already witnessed in Gaza?

Helyeh Doutaghi: You know, there are a few points I want to highlight here. First is the As you correctly mentioned, the fact that this was allowed with impunity, targeting mass murdering children, targeting hospitals, targeting universities, the fact that this was allowed in Gaza is the mere reason, with impunity, is the mere reason we're seeing it continue in Iran. And I will assure you that if... we don't want to stop it in Iran. It will continue beyond Iran's borders. It will continue in Pakistan. It will continue in China. It will continue in Russia. It will continue beyond our borders. And it means that it's going to impact those who reside in the imperial court as well, as we're seeing Iran inflicting the cost upon them. I think part of the... fascism that I was targeted during that time of fascism that they were vicious repression and silencing and repression in universities. I think that is the extension of what they're doing outside and it's completely interconnected. As an academic, if you're OK with universities outside of your border being bombed, if you're OK with or silence, not even OK, if you find yourself silent in the face of targeting education facilities, assassinating, assassination of scientists in the global north, in the global south. The fascism is going to come back, is going to come back to you. And we saw it. And we saw the fascism in the United States and Canada. And is this the type of world we want to be living in? Is allowing and having... kids killed? Is this supposed to be normalized? Are we supposed to just accept a world in which schools are targeted, universities are targeted, scientists are assassinated? So that's one part of it. I think there is a moral responsibility and there is also I say this and it's not necessarily, you know, I'm bitter because of my experience in the West. I think Western subjects are below the conditions of sacrifice, as Ali Khedri puts it. I think at this point, in this moment of history, it is important to be willing to pay costs for the liberation that we're fighting for collectively. Yes, there is going to be repression. Yes, there is going to be loss of jobs. And many of us have been affected by this. And it's the choice that you have to make in this historical moment where you stand and which side of history do you stand. Is your job more important than the lives of others, you know, in the periphery? And I remain, I continue to be deeply disappointed by labor in the West and labor movements in the West. I love what Ali Khadri, how Ali Khadri contextualize, explains this by saying, It's no longer about the eight hours work. It's about the fact that the eight hours work of a worker in London does not mean shorter life of workers in Iraq. And I think that's what we're seeing happen. I think labor is complicit. I think academia is complicit. I think movements who have been, you know, doing educations for over two and a half years now, okay, education is very important. Doing the agitation and doing all of it is very important. When are we going to use that education and what are we going to do with it if not after two and a half years of a regional war at this point waged by their governments? And so, yeah, I think there needs to be accountability and self-reflection, a very serious one. And I have many comrades, many principled comrades, many strong and people I look up to and mentors that I learned from who reside in the belly of the beast. And I continue to be inspired by them, how courageous they are, because it's not it can be a scary to live under pressure. that type of fascism and a stand up for truth.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, we can hope that something may transform. It's been two and a half years, but now we are, of course, as you're saying, a regional war that could have and will is already starting to have global consequences. So it is a time of decision and where, you know, the barriers or the illusions, you know, that people may have that immunize them or separate them from them. the real conditions that are taking place in the world are evaporating and being torn apart as we see reality in a very direct way. And so that is forcing a decision time. You know, people have to make their commitments and recognize and understand that there's no way to insulate themselves from the consequences of this imperialist system as it, um, you know continues to move towards greater erratic violent lashing out in the course of its weakening and decline so this is a we should actually be thinking of it more it seems to me as a time of opportunity because uh this is the moment to actually win a better future for everyone, right? Because there is the possibility that empire can be defeated because of the heroic efforts of the people of Gaza, the people of South Lebanon, the people in Iraq, the people in Yemen. And right now, principally, you would say the people of Iran. And so I wanted to talk a little bit more about how people have been responding to this situation of attack and imperial war upon them. You've mentioned already and have talked about it in other interviews about this remarkable phenomenon of defiance of people coming into the streets. You put it, I think, extremely well and something that I've been. mentioning also is that these are people people find it in the west it's like preposterous like it doesn't make sense there's bombardment taking place it's a war shouldn't you be finding a safe place uh you know avoiding public spaces uh just spending time in you know your uh home and if you can a shelter or get out of the cities into some village you know but um It doesn't make sense by a kind of typical individualist logic of my personal security. And so it's very hard to recognize and understand what is the meaning of this phenomenon and why would be people be so kind of defined and show their defiance in a particular way like that? publicly, you know, Trump called, you know, Netanyahu, they called for people to come out into the streets, right? Meaning take down the so-called regime, you know, overthrow your government, take these institutions. They did that several times during the period of the protests. And they also put out that message at the start of this war, hoping that these assassinations of leaders, including the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and that they expected that people should come out into the streets and overturn the government. And you've made the point that, and I hope you can talk a little bit more again about it, that when that didn't work, they started trying to still create those conditions by targeting people. not just the hospitals and the ambulances that we've seen, so many hospitals and ambulances and medical facilities destroyed and bombarded, but also the whole architecture of public order and security, the police stations, you mentioned government offices, judicial offices, all the things that would create chaos so that there would be an opportunity for people to come out in opposition and have a kind of regime change, so-called regime change operation. That hasn't happened. And that frustration has led to even more attacks on civilian, you know, civilians and schools, universities, like we were just speaking about. You have been doing some incredible interviews with people during these nightly demonstrations. So, you know, how have the people responded? I'd really love to talk and investigate this situation. more fully for our audience that may not understand uh the unique logic of of Iranian uh people's response to this situation by being so defiant

Helyeh Doutaghi: So part of it, a significant part of it, I would argue, is rooted, as you mentioned, in the Shia culture. You know, Iranians have historically honored Ashura and Muharram and Karbala, and they live it yearly. You know, they live... the legacy and the story of Karbala and how Imam Hussain and his entire family showed up to knowing that they may very well be defeated, like being aware of how the odds were against them. And nonetheless, they believed for the truth, for the truth of the word. They will stand up and they will give their lives to that cause for that liberation. against oppression, to fight oppression, and to challenge, and to refuse to be subjugated to the tyranny of their time. And so this is a principle, this is a very fundamental principle of Shiism, where , right? You would be better in translating that for me. But our dignity is worth more than our lives, essentially. And so part of it is that. And I think a very, I've been saying this to friends that what distinguishes those who are able to protect Iran versus the forces that, the imperial forces and their agents is the fact that the revolutionary subjects in Iran are actually willing to die for what they believe in. And you can't say the same about the forces that are paid or are the agents of the empire. And the concept of martyrdom in Shiaism is not, despite popular belief, is not about dying. It's quite the opposite. It's about how you choose to live, how you choose to dedicate and spend your life. It's about life. It's not about death. And so I think this has been very present and very pronounced in the spirit of resistance and resilience and defiance that we're seeing. And that's number one. And I think the martyrdom, as much as they think targeting the leaders and the Supreme Leader himself and the commanders and other political figures of Iran, as much as the United States believes that it's gonna weaken Iran, it really has shifted or at least inflicted moments of reflection for many young Iranians who did not necessarily like or sympathize with many of these leaders. you know, it's forcing them to challenge their own assumptions. And it's giving them that opportunity of like clarifying moments. So that's part of it. Others is also, I've seen non-religious people who are not necessarily, who don't confer, who don't practice, for example, Islam, who are extremely nationalist. And I think it's been very interesting to see, you know, as some attend, you know, daily like evening rallies with religious songs or, you know, it's a different atmosphere and others go to, cultural centers and read Shahnameh, you know, read Hafez poetry or Shahnameh poetry, which has the stories of heroes of Iran historically that fight, you know, forces of death and destruction. And they recall that and they, I guess, try to position themselves and be rooted in the history of, in the history and culture of Iranian poetry and Iranian civilization. The two are not necessarily, not necessarily, I don't think the two are contradictory or exclusive of one another at all. Sayyid Ali Khamenei was, you know, was very well versed in Shahnaameh, in fact, and extensive Iran's poetry. But I think People are finding different ways and different from different walks of life with different levels of faith and practice of Islam. They are finding themselves one common path. principle and foundation to a stand on, and that is Iran, that is protecting the sovereignty of Iran. And I don't think anything could unite the country after the attempted coup that took place in January, which did really make the society fragile in a sense that There was fragmentation. I had discussions with my aunties. I had discussions in my classes, in my communities that who were rightly so. And we can talk about I don't think right now is the right time to talk about internal contradictions of Iran. But we had a lot of very serious and very heated conversations and debates within family, within within different circles of people. debating that, and that was very pronounced. But they underestimated the people's love for their country and for their sovereignty, despite all the legitimate grievances, despite all the infractions and, I guess, divisions that has been imposed upon the country with years of sanctions and hybrid warfare in the form of covert and overt operations, propaganda, media. Iran has united the people.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, that's certainly how it feels. I know, of course, there may be always a hardcore, very dissident people. They're probably very quiet now in these circumstances. But, you know, one thing that the this kind of public outpouring of taking the streets and the public space for these rallies nightly to show their defiance against the imperialist war and their support for their nation, their country, their people. You know, their government that is mounting defense on their behalf. One thing that it seems like it has done is that it has prevented in a way any opportunity for agents of, you know, regime change type operations. You know, we saw the chaos on the streets produced by some of these. you know people uh you know shooting and killing uh you know uh police uh and you know buses you know volunteers people who are responsible for kind of public order and so forth and so on and doing exactly what the U.S Israeli bombardment and attacks are doing which is you know attacking police stations uh Banks uh hospitals clinics ambulances fire truck all those kinds of things that same destruction that horrified people, you know, when they saw it and turned people against these groups trying to destabilize all of society to change the, you know, Islamic Republic of Iran from through this kind of violent chaos that what's happening now, there's a continuity that has been made that illegitimate, basically, and people have taken the streets themselves. So that prevents any of these attempts that everybody's already who is supporting. And so that seems to be a wonderful kind of an amazing kind of social tactic. And also, it seems that it has produced stability and order from the people, you know, and it has shown that even without top leadership, the society itself can find its own ways to make sure that people get what they need. There's no from what I understand. you know, runs upon the grocery stores to just take everything for oneself, a hoard. Uh, there's no like, uh, you know, disorder on the streets, their volunteer groups, uh, their people working collectively to support one another clean up after a bombardment, you know, that's a resilient society, you know, that is deeper even than just when you think these institutions have been taken away. Uh, That is very kind of interesting and remarkable, worth remarking on because it would be so different in other social contexts. So maybe this worth, you know, if you have any response and discussion of that, it would be interesting to hear.

Helyeh Doutaghi: I thank you for that. That was beautifully put. And I want to build upon what you said in terms of these people being in the streets is protecting the revolution or it being hijacked. And I think both people and the state learned from especially the events of the past year. um what i want to add is at this point there is very minimal risk of you know any regime change for internally at least right now so the states have been secured and yet we continue to see people on the street and i think right now then this is more than protecting uh the country from chaos this is also the rallies what i think um how i understand them is moving beyond that, moving beyond protecting the revolution itself, but also about how we end the war with dignity. It's about how we're gonna conclude this phase of our struggle towards the broader decolonization and liberation of the region. And I think many are in the streets. This is something that the state has to, you know, grapple with that. If we are to accept conditions of, you know, conditions that they need to be the conditions that are not, I guess, favorable to many revolutionaries who have been on the streets and have been demanding the avenge of the martyrs of our kids, our martyrs and our people. I think it's also a pressure on the government and on the decision makers on how to conclude this phase of the war and how be accountable and responsive to people who are the core and the center of this revolution. And they will have to think about that. I think it can be a difficult situation to be in, especially if you have reformist segments within the government who might be pushing to come to some form of concession or agreement or peace or ceasefire. So it's bigger than that. I think the state right now is accountable and needs to be responsive to the demands of these people in the streets who continue to hold it down.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, that's an excellent and very important point is that this revolutionary spirit, you know, this is almost like the second phase of the revolution, you know, like it's a revitalizing of the revolutionary spirit and it is making demands. The leadership, you know, one reason why the assassinations also inspired this kind of a response is that you could see that, The leaders were with the people, they're suffering and they're sacrificing and willing to make a sacrifice for on behalf of the people. The way it goes now is, I think, very interesting, as you're saying, is that that has charged the popular, sovereign kind of revolutionary will of the people. The leaders cannot abandon or betray them. this kind of spirit right now you know like they can't make some backroom deal and we can see that this is emboldening this is a people's war you know for sovereignty it's being waged as a people's war the leadership has to be you know reflective of that political will and that's we see that they're rejecting negotiations until it is the right time and the conditions are being met that agenda is being set not just by government leaders but as you're saying by people, what they're chanting, what they're demanding. And it could have very consequential outcomes for the entire region, as you're pointing out, the decolonizing component. So this may be in some ways, originally in 1978, 79, you know, Imam Khomeini did not think of the revolution as just a nationalist revolution to free iran it was of course principally that's the first kind of goal and outcome was to get rid of the tarut the oppression and tyranny of the shah and restore popular sovereignty to the people of iran But he has had greater ambitions of also, you know, freeing the whole region, that they should also be inspired by the revolutionary ideals to decolonize West Asia, to defeat U.S. empire, to, you know, Solve the question of Palestine right from the settler colonial Zionist entity. So in some ways, this is an opportunity. And it's very interesting to hear how important the people setting of the political agenda is in this in this moment. I mean, what's more democratic? Like we keep hearing about how this is a. you know, irrational, dangerous theocracy, you know, but in point of fact, it is more responsive to the will of the people because of revolutionary activity. So, you know, there's a lot maybe to work with there, but also maybe you might also want to touch upon how Palestine has figured so prominently, not even just in Al-Quds Day when it was highlighted, but in all of the statements and if whether that's also part of the kind of these rallies and what people are chanting and what they're demanding as well.

Helyeh Doutaghi: It is seen as one united battle all across. Iranians understand this, at least those who are political subjects on the streets and fighting. They understand our struggles as interconnected. Historically, our region has been subject to colonial and Zionist occupation, and it is only through the collective struggle for liberation, that we're going to be liberated. It's our shared destiny in this region. And those of us who are indigenous to these lands share this struggle and share this fate together. So this is very well established. The point I wanted to make about the two points I've been noticing a lot And that is in every rally I go in every community, the working class really do represent a lot of... They represent... a lot of what we're seeing, like the working class are the ones, not that it's, it's not necessarily that it's exclusive to working class, but they've been, the workers have been the sovereign of the country. It is, as you said, you know, the people are the sovereign, the workers are the sovereign. And I've, and I've been seeing how those who are, who really are in dire financial conditions and, and circumstances, they've been, generous with their times, with how they're dedicating their life to keeping their community safe. I know bakeries that are baking breads for free in a neighborhood that is, you know, it's a working class neighborhood and it's been hit. And so the baker has decided to provide free bread for the community. And it's just been incredible to see how the popular revolution, as we understand the 79 revolution, really heavily relies on its working class and on the workers as its sovereigns to protect the country. And this is something I will continue to talk about as I will be visiting the South as well, talking to people. labor movement and their leaders. But I wanted to mention that because I think for myself, it's been really inspiring to see it. And this is, and I should add, this is against, you know, over five decades of sanctions that have been targeting the working class disproportionately against every other sector of society. They are the primary targets of both the war and the sanctions. And I've been, this is part of my research where I argue that sanctions are in fact a class, transnational class issue. Iran, as you know, no country, including Iran, and this doesn't exclude Iran, no country faces sanctions as a whole. There is a spectrum based on class and based on social status, how people are impacted and receive sanctions from beneficiaries to victims. And sometimes the two can be blurry, but the working class, are the primary target, consistently have been the primary target of sanctions regimes. And it's incredible to see how the working class, who have been paying the price for this hybrid warfare for many years, are the ones who are determined and have such political clarity and principle to protect the revolution, because they understand that their... struggle and what it is that they're fighting for depends on the sovereignty and the sovereignty is the precondition for advancing, for advancing their betterment of conditions of life and their struggles.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, this is such important and relevant analysis. It seems to me because of course, what a lot of people don't understand perhaps about the era of maximum pressure sanctions and its consequences and effects is on Iran and just lay a sanctions have done elsewhere is that it produces kind of corrupt neoliberal kind of classes. It harms the people, the working class people, but the elites find with their kind of close connection to the state ways of still profiting out of the sanctions regime and they are less affected. buy it. And we know, of course, that there have been different political kind of orientations and groupings within the Islamic Republic. They have elections, they have different governments with different orientations and policies. And there are the reformists who often have adopted a kind of neoliberal kind of set of assumptions about the economy and that we need to move more in that kind of direction away from the revolutionary social kind of solidarity a solidaristic kinds of policies of the government that this is maybe a transformative moment in some ways what you were talking about the working class kind of confidence and response in not only defense of their system and their sovereignty, but making demands on it that may be in the post-revolutionary, I mean, phase after the war, after the Ramadan war, that they will be demanding that for their sacrifice, for their commitment, they deserve, you know, to have social programs and an economy that is more fair and equitable and and so on, because if As this war seems to be accomplishing is the reversal of some of the sanctions already. Iranian oil production is like the sanctions have been lifted because of the crisis of oil supply and fossil fuel supply, but also because of the Strait of Hormuz and the way that that's being implemented. you know, kind of managed by a sovereign Iranian nation during this war is that that will bring in income. The question is going to be, you know, how is that distributed? How is that, you know, supposed to be employed for sovereign development? That's going to be such an interesting question. And, you know, this maybe leads me to a question to ask you about, because sometimes there is this on the left, you know, in the imperial core or in elsewhere, uh you know uh i think less so in the global south but certainly in in western marxism western left this kind of construction of iran and iran's kind of state system and society and economy as not a socialist state so you know like okay we might identify with the anti-imperialist component we don't think there should be war on them but you know we don't really feel that this is a you know What should our position be for support for a non-socialist state? Well, you know, maybe there's some way to think about socialism itself in a kind of more flexible and broader way. Everything that you were describing about the working class being in movement here and what its kinds of demands are suggests that if Islamic Republic meets those demands, what's the difference between calling it a socialist state or not? Just because they have religious language, they have their own constitution, and so on. So I'm wondering, you know, if maybe you have any reflections about... About that, which gets us back to, you know, some of this kind of language of Shiite theology and so on, that it in fact actually embodies both anti-imperialism and a socialistic kind of spirit. I mean, what does it mean to be the nation of Imam Hussein? social solidarity, sacrifice for one another, standing up against injustice. I mean, so what is socialism then if it's not that? So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that for what Gerald Horne calls our friends on the left.

Helyeh Doutaghi: So a few, I guess, immediate responses and, you know, being at war on a daily basis makes me a little bit more blunt these days. And my response is, Iran doesn't need to be a socialist for any left to take a principled stance on it. Iranians have the agency to determine to be anything that they want, to choose any political system to be governed by and to build their societies as such. And so it is inherently Eurocentric. It is inherently political. problematic to impose any political system, including socialism, upon Iranians, as we've seen Iranians have proven to be incredibly more powerful of political agents than any Western subjects. Because Iranians have shown that they're able to overthrow governments they don't like. And we can't say the same about Americans, for instance, right now. So it's important to, I guess, start with that, that taking an anti-imperialist principled position on Iran needs to necessarily needs to be unconditional right now, as Iran is facing the most vicious colonial forces and imperial forces of our time. That's number one. Number two, you know, right now, the states, and trust me, I am the first critique of Iranian neoliberalism and how our economic policies over the past three decades, at least, has been in sharp contradiction to anti-imperial principles of the revolution, especially in its foreign policy. And I've written about this, and I think... These are very important conversations that we are having internally, and I'll continue to have those in the spaces in English language media after the war. But it also, I think I want to emphasize that ever since the war, Anyone, the health care, first of all, Iran continues to have free health care, despite the fact that a significant portion of health care has been privatized over the past three days due to neoliberal policies. But, you know, for everyone who has been impacted of any level, who have been impacted by the war, the government has been providing free health care and hospitals are obligated to treat any patients for free. Iran has been providing free educational programs because the schools have been stopped and students are not going to classrooms. And so the national TV is providing free education, bringing on teachers and dedicating every hour of the day for educational programs so that they don't get behind of their lessons, for instance. And I could go on about the type of, and they've been very, the government has been, and I'm a big critique of this government, don't get me wrong, but the government has been doing a great job in terms of stabilizing the prices. over the past month. We have not seen, despite what you would expect under war conditions, we have been seeing even some prices like meat and chicken and groceries either stay the same or in fact go lower than what it was. The government is, in fact, providing and securing social welfare for the people and is taking a good care of its people as it's its job. You know, it's not it's not it's not a privilege. It's their job and they're doing it. And and so, yeah. That's my message to the left. We are able to determine how we will govern, how we will hold our government accountable, number one. What is the political system that we choose to have for our state? And also, I think Iranians, and I don't claim to be an expert on liberation theology and Shiaism, but as much as I have been practicing this for my entire life, I think Islam and the discourse of Shia social justice of Imam Ali in Shiaism, for anyone who's interested, I strongly suggest that they look into it and they do their own readings and research. has a rich history. Shia provides a very rich history of social justice and how to implement that in a political system. Because Shia, the discourse of Shia provides a system, that's the whole principle of the Islamic revolution that we have. There is a famous line by Imam Khomeini, that says our religion is our politics and our politics is our religion, indicating that Islam provides a solid political discourse for how societies need to be governed. And that is rooted principally on social justice and on the Mostaz Afin. Iran's revolution is, you know, its message to the world was that this is the revolution of Mostaz Afin. This is the revolution of the oppressed. And which is why it relies on the Mostaz Afin and on the oppressed as its greatest assets and potential, as I've been saying. So, yeah, I think, you know, I invite my friends in the left to open their horizon, to study Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah, to listen to his speeches, to study Sayyid Ali Khamenei, to look into their thoughts and their teachings and what these revolutionary anti-colonial leaders of our times, what has been their discourse of thoughts and inspirations and faith that have led them to become the type of anti-colonial leaders, significant anti-colonial leaders of our time.

Adnan Hussain: yes i mean i think uh i will probably try to have some kind of like uh episode dedicated to looking more deeply at how shi revolutionary theology developed with reinterpretation because not a lot of people know like you know for example the moharam you know the anniversary of the martyrdom of imam hussein the grandson of the prophet and one of the kind of pious leaders of the community and regarded as the third Imam in Shi'i tradition that is third religious and political guide and leader. of the ummah of the community um you know very uh you know those commemoration ceremonies like in the past in past history the they're called tazia you know mourning and grieving in the past a lot of times it was very internal right it was this oh self-blame and feeling how could we have let this sacrifice happen woe is to us you know that has a very different political character but what happened in Shi'i tradition, is that the interpretation advanced to become, we should all be like Imam Hussein, right? Is that we should stand up. He gave us the example that we're supposed to follow, not just that we grieve that he was sacrificed, but that This is something that all of us have to be willing to have that sacrifice as well if we are truly to follow his tradition and his teaching. He's teaching us something. But that wasn't always how it was interpreted. But the revolutionary interpretations, now that is the... the dominant way of seeing. That's why we have, you know, in Southern Lebanon and Ansar Allah, like all these different post-Iranian revolution kind of communities of Shi'is have adopted this as a kind of mainstream revolutionary interpretation of what the meaning of that is. That's Means, you know, that there's history, that there's resources within these histories, within these just cultures and systems for revolution. And there's also, you know, resources in them for reactionaries to use and so on. The question is, is what do we do now? We have a choice. We have a decision. What kind of faith? What is what are the values of our faith? Right. And activate those. and i heard i saw a wonderful kind of interview with an iraqi man who was talking about his um on some iraqi program a little clip that was circulated where he was talking about how he um you know traveled to cairo and at security in the airport they kind of took him away for special you know, kind of interrogation and they asked him, okay, so are you Shi? And he said, brother, this is like old news. We're past the Shi Sunni like that. There's only two mazhabs now, two orientations, two schools of faith. One is mazhabat al-muqawama and mazhabat al-inbitah. You're either, you know, part of the school of resistance or you're part of the school of subservience and prostration. Do you want to have dignity? Do you want to have human existence with value and dignity? It doesn't matter. She has some Christian atheist, you know. Choose your school. These are the two schools. And that's the time of decision. And the people of Iran are giving us inspiration as well as in Lebanon, Yemen, you know, all over, too. That's a lesson that we should be we should be taking. You know, it seems to me.

Helyeh Doutaghi: That was beautifully said. Thanks for sharing that, Adnan. I guess just to wrap this up, I've been hearing a lot from my friends that they recall this, that every land is Karbala and every day is Ashura. The struggle is really rooted in the fact that we see ourselves as the continuation of this long legacy of fighting for liberation as part of this humanity. And we are fighting for this humanity. And we are inheriting this struggle from our ancestors, from years and years. And inshallah, we'll live to see the victory and liberation of the humanity.

Adnan Hussain: Inshallah, you know, fatallah qareeb, inshallah. Yes. Well, I was going to ask you a couple of other things about these annoying diasporic kind of confusers. But, you know, we ended on such a kind of wonderful and hopeful, which is the real message that I don't even want to, like, you know, mess with that. I just want to thank you so much, Helya, for your time, for the work that you've been doing, for the outstanding example. You've been giving people of how to use their knowledge, you know, to reinforce the message of resistance against empire. And for all of the insights and information that you're able to share with my audience, I'm absolutely sure that it will be very much appreciated and very informative and thought provoking for our audience. So I want to thank you so much for making the time. I know things are not easy over there for you to give us. to go to a facility where you could have proper internet and to be able to speak with us. It's so much appreciated. JazakAllah. Thank you.

Helyeh Doutaghi: It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much, dear Adnan, for everything that you are doing, the incredible work that you're doing and my love and solidarity to you. Thanks for having me.

Adnan Hussain: Thank you. Okay. Assalamualaikum to you and to everyone else. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.