Huey Newton Interview on his book "Revolutionary Suicide" (1972)

Speaker 1: I put together a bunch of stuff, but I'd rather wing it. Response take one. I guess this morning on responses, Mr. Huey P. Newton, who has just completed a second book, this one called Revolutionary Suicide, a title that certainly has a lot of meaning, and I'm not sure what it means exactly. I read the book and just completed it last night, but your definitions evade me. Perhaps you could fill us in a little detail. What does revolutionary suicide mean?

Huey P. Newton: To understand revolutionary suicide, you must understand reactionary suicide, or suicide in the common definition of taking one's own life. Usually when a person commits suicide, reactionary suicide, it's because of environmental difficulties. In other words, reactionary conditions forces him to end his life. When the person who refuses to take his own life pits himself against almost unbeatable odds, He might end up shortening his span of life, but he has the possibility or the hope to transform the situation and therefore make life better for the generation to follow. And he might even live through and bear the fruits of the changed conditions or the fruits of the revolution. So a revolution or suicide really is a very hopeful kind of situation. where one is attempting to change society.

Speaker 1: First thing that came to mind when I thought of the title, when I looked at the title, was an incident that I understand a little more being from a white society, an incident in Ireland in 1916 where the revolutionaries staged an insurrection and knowing well that they were going to be killed. And they decided, well, there's nothing as effective as our own red blood. Was this the feeling when the Panthers first started? Were people really ready to lay down their lives to make a point?

Huey P. Newton: Yes, of course, the Panthers, the Black Panther Party was ready, and is ready. But I think that, of course, you have to analyze the conditions at a time to see what would be the most effective spark that would light the prairie fire. So at one time we lawfully or legally carried weapons to protest the previous brutality and so forth. And as time went, and we did get a very positive response from many people, and I think that that particular action we might have carried too long until it's no longer effective. But I think that you have the right idea. It's really setting yourself as an example to get a response. No matter what that response is, it's all what you have in mind and how effective your action is can only be judged on the basis of the aftermath.

Speaker 1: How effective were your actions considering the fact that you based it mainly on police brutality? Has it changed? Have the police in Oakland changed?

Huey P. Newton: I think that the people have changed. The people are more conscious of how to deal with the police situation because we find that the police are connected to the broader political apparatus. In other words, City Council chooses the city, the chief police and so forth. Now people see that in order to change the police, we have to change the other political, change the entire political organization. And this is why Bobby decided to run for mayor of Oakland. So we're at the point now that Bobby not only ran for mayor of Oakland, but he's made the runoff. And I think this is an indication of our effectiveness.

Speaker 1: okay your feelings toward the police are really documented well in one particular part in the book that i think is very touching if you don't mind i'd like to read just this this one part about officer fry who is certainly a personality who will remain in your life for quite some time uh... it begins on this uh... this last paragraph last two paragraphs said officer fry bothers me his death bothers me and the things that caused his death bother me I can see this young man going through high school, varsity football, basketball, and all the other things that young men do in good physical condition. Joining the police department and without proper orientation, without proper attitudes, and without proper psychological training and all the other training which is necessary to become a policeman, being thrown into the ghetto. In a year's time, he becomes a rank and outright racist to such a point that when he comes to class to talk about his success as a police officer, the school teacher has to cringe and grimace and let him know that The use of the word nigger was not appropriate. I just wonder how many more officer fries there are. His death bothers me, but Huey Newton is not responsible for his death. There's a lot of compassion in that statement.

Huey P. Newton: My view is the death of any man diminishes me, and it should diminish all of us because we're involved with mankind. I think that's an example of reactionary suicide, the fact that society was responsible for Officer Fry's death. The whole political situation, the lack of training, the kind of values in the society took Officer Fry's life. And I think that it takes many of our lives to throw in society and combat people in society and combat each other.

Speaker 1: How do you think it stands now? Are there more officer fries on the Oakland Police Department?

Huey P. Newton: Really, the Oakland Police Department hasn't changed very much. As I said, the people are changing because they see the need of dealing with the situation. And I think in the future, there will be fewer officer fries with that attitude because that's what we're really talking about. we're talking about uh... the kind of values that uh... that uh... that pit people against each other i think in the future the police department would change i think they'd like the uh... with uh... the people electing bobby seal will be the start of that change uh... i imagine you're obviously optimistic that uh... bobby seal will win uh... how does it how does it look right now well it looks good but it's it's gotta be uh... it's it's it will be a um... a um... a battle because we found that about 50,000 to 60,000 people, black and Spanish-speaking people, did not come out to vote at all, and they're registered. So our concern is to draw them out to the polls on May 15th. and uh... if they come out and we're going door-to-door now cancelling uh... the uh... various precincts uh... that we would be a we win that easily uh... so it's just a question now how successful will be in bringing out the vote and of course that i'm uh... optimistic and we will bring the vote out there was a uh... the situation when jack kennedy ran for president where the uh... opposition brought up the point that uh...

Speaker 1: if kennedy were elected he'd be taking his orders from the vatican rather than from the people of the how much uh... of the influence of the panther party would be exerted in decisions by bobby seale bobby seale is a registered democrat and uh... i'm also a registered democrat and he's running on a democratic ticket as a people's candidate uh... i don't think that uh...

Huey P. Newton: It's a real issue, or it shouldn't be a real issue, his membership in the Black Panther Party, because we see that Redding has been a member of the Elks Club, and no one asks whether he takes his orders from the Elks Club. And I think that Bobby Seale will be in the same position. He'll take his order from the people, and he happens to be a member of the Black Panther Party.

Speaker 1: I think it's kind of interesting being a member of the Elks where no blacks or Jews are admitted.

Huey P. Newton: Blacks or Jews are not admitted.

Speaker 1: I found some of your comments in Playboy magazine very interesting, especially the animosity that you showed toward Eldridge Cleaver, I guess, has become a very divisive thing. You accused him of some pretty tough things. You accused him of being a homosexual.

Huey P. Newton: I'm sorry it came across as looking as if it's an antagonistic kind of attitude I have towards him because I don't really hold those attitudes. It was just a point of observation, a point of fact. And as far as my accusations that he had homosexual tendencies, I don't have anything against homosexuals. I think that a person had a choice of what kind of sexual life that he would lead. I think it's a problem when one represses his character. And so the problem, really, I tried to point out, maybe I didn't do it very well, or the interviewer didn't do a good job, was that we do get into problems with ourselves when we repress our true selves. and i think that's uh... those cleaver probably lead to some distorted actions but uh... i didn't by no means that admit to uh... to slur him uh... by uh... uh... pointing out uh... prop was probably as part of his problem if you show the desire to reunify with you uh... philosophically would he still would he be accepted back or has he gone too far well it's not a question of whether he uh... could reunify with me that he was expelled from the Black Panther Party and we are governed by a board or a central committee and I would doubt whether the Black Panther Party would admit him in but we issued a newspaper in the Black Panther paper we issued a statement that we want justice for Eldridge Cleaver. We think that the government of the United States doesn't have one molecule of integrity to judge anyone. And if I had to choose between Nixon and with the Watergate situation and Eldridge Cleaver, I would choose Eldridge Cleaver. So we think that Eldridge Cleaver should be admitted into the country.

Speaker 1: and uh... not for a fair trial because you can't receive a fair trial and i would support that but i don't think that the party would admit it back into uh... iraq the uh... your observations on richard nixon would be interesting uh... especially with what happened uh... last night with his uh... revelations on the watergate incident because he did attack his integrity uh... all through the book every time his name is mentioned uh... Well, it's quite obvious you have no respect for the man. What are your observations with the Watergate thing? Have all your wildest dreams come true? Is that what you were saying online?

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, I think that your actions of your sins are found out by, and the people are finding out now, many people who voted for Nixon, that they made a great mistake. And I think that in the future that it also will be clear that Nixon was not only instrumental in the Watergate affair, that he was a ringleader.

Speaker 1: uh... one other thing there was another article is going to bring up and i can't remember what magazine was i think it was a square word they were mentioning something to the effect that uh... you would be more readily accepted by the establishment now that you've uh... become a pussycat is this true is the the line really become that modifier what are the significant changes that have happened between uh... nineteen sixty five say and now

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, I think that Esquire attempted to slur me. I don't think he panted a pussycat. But there have been changes, not ideological changes, but changes in tactics and strategy. And I think that in order to be a revolutionist, you must organize people because the people are the makers of all world history and the makers of any revolution. Without an organized people, it's absurd to think of people changing society. And we found that the continued emphasis upon the gun alienated the community and made them afraid. And when people are afraid, certainly you can't organize them. So we have our survival programs that are really self-help programs, our health clinics. We have busing for prison parents where we go to various prisons that are free of charge. every week and food programs so far and we found that and also political education classes connected to each of these these social programs we found by doing this that we were able to launch our political campaign and also do some source to the community and the main thing is to organize people so that the people will have a clear view and of what role to take in order to transform society. Too much of the time we have the infantile leftists who think that a group or party can make a revolution. But the Black Panther Party can't make any change in society, nor can any other organization. It can only be the spire that lights the prairie fire. And I think that we're making progress and lifting the consciousness of the people.

Speaker 1: I felt one of your remarks in the interview in Playboy, you said that ultimately if it's going to be a complete change, it would have to be done violently.

Huey P. Newton: I speculate that based upon historical situations, that at some point the people might decide it's necessary to use arms to make the final change. But that would be a decision of the people. how they will change the society. And that was a mere speculation. And of course, I wouldn't stand against the will of the people when and if they come to that conclusion.

Speaker 1: One of the problems I think you encountered with probably a lot of bad press was the boycotting of the liquor store in Oakland. Does that program still continue where you solicit assistance from merchants who make their money from the ghetto?

Huey P. Newton: that many stores contribute with the tax write-off to the health clinic and our preschool. And, of course, we came with, we settled the boycott with our cow pack, cow pack is a package in taverns. liquor stores signed with us that they would make this contribution. And it was very much bad press. Of course, they said it was extortionary. We were abiding by the First Amendment right to congregate for a reason of grievance and an economic boycott. And we were successful in that, and we are in unity with CALPAC at this point. uh... endorsed elaine brown for a city councilwoman and uh... now they're considering in a few days uh... we're pretty sure we'll get their endorsement for bobby seal for mayor of oakland and the feeling uh... downtown and uh... throughout the uh... the ghetto area is more receptive now on the part of the merchant senate might have been uh... during the uh... sensation later with the boycott uh... yes of course the establishment uh... press they uh... attempted to uh... smear the party and call us extortionists because they realize that a black business, according to our definitions, any business makes its primary profits from black and minority people. And so therefore, most of the stores in Oakland we consider black stores. And we hope to have unity with all of the progressive businesses, those that contribute to the progressive campaign, in order to demand of these large chain stores to live up to the obligation to the have-nots in the community, because they make a profit there, and we think that those who can't buy should be shared with until such time we can have full employment.

Speaker 1: For many years, the Oakland Tribune, I think, was the nemesis of the Black Panther Party. Have things settled there at all? I notice the Tribune in the last few years has given a lot more coverage to events in the black community. Is this tokenism, or are they making a sincere effort, do you think, to become involved?

Huey P. Newton: I think that it's tokenism, that Nolan is a staunch supporter of Redding, and the Republican regime, I would have to admit that the Tribune has been forced through the people to carry more black news because so many of their subscribers are black.

Speaker 1: The Tribune, I think, was one of the people that claimed they were influential in getting projects like Acorn Project to try to redevelop West Oakland. Do you think their efforts were sincere there? Not just the Oakland Tribune, but the administration in Oakland. Do you think that was a real move, or, again, is that tokenism?

Huey P. Newton: I think it was dislocation in the houses that... They're being put into West Oakland, are substandard, and they'll be as deteriorated as the ones that took out in a few years. I think that in order to really make a sincere move, they would have to make housing that starts to live up to the standard in the first place. In other words, that won't be a slum area in five or ten years. The quality of housing there is not good at all. I understand the people having leakage every time they have a rain there.

Speaker 1: Do you think the Panther Party will ever be financially solvent enough to, say, promote a large redevelopment program like that? We hope so.

Huey P. Newton: Of course, I don't know when that would be. It's an awful lot of money. I think that, of course, it's the city, there's various governments, the city government, state government, federal government's responsibility to see that its people have a decent place to live and full employment. So we will be demanding from these various agencies to live up to their responsibilities to the people.

Speaker 1: I think as a matter of one of your fundraising things is this book, isn't it? Yeah, that's true. The profits go to the party?

Huey P. Newton: Yes, the profits go to the party through Stronghold Consolidated, which is like a holding company that we all collectively put our, uh... funds and uh... babi's books either time uh... my other book today for the people all of our uh... elaine's brown record she just published uh... called uh... until we're free just uh... motown just released it matter of fact i would have brought you a copy i'll send a copy over here i think we just got a copy the other day

Speaker 1: you point out uh... a lot of the incredible things and in your book in your life has been i would say uh... more than average visiting china and actually uh... meeting uh... premier joe in life uh... did it work on your visit to china did you find that uh... but you did she really discovered anything new or did it just simply reaffirm what you've been taking a longer as far as a socialist or communistic government In other words, did you learn anything?

Huey P. Newton: I think that I've been shadow watching for some years, and I found that even I was a victim of bourgeois thinking. The guy that I felt that the government was probably somewhat top-heavy, it wasn't the people that have the sober liberties and the freedom that I would hope they would have. even though I felt that the country was working towards a change, but they were threatened by the United States and they're a relatively underdeveloped country. So in the future, I felt that they would have more of these freedoms. So this is the way I justified my deep feelings that maybe it was a top-heavy government. But after I got there, I felt sort of ashamed of feeling this way, and I realized that I was also a victim of bourgeois thinking because of the people. I saw free people, and I saw a government that was not top-heavy. I saw that the people had freedom of speech and that there was real work. There was a real situation where people worked together to lift the whole country instead of a situation such as here where part of the people... live well, and too many of us do not.

Speaker 1: One of the first things you noticed was the difference in police action, something that you've become pretty much of an expert on. How does it operate there?

Huey P. Newton: Well, the country's organized in what they call 100,000 independent communes, and they have like village trials. uh... where uh... the uh... it's a rotating situation where everyone serves and uh... in on their judiciary and uh... there's much uh... self-criticism criticism of others as they call it uh... in these uh... trials they sell in a very informal way and uh... it's a trial by your peer group and uh... i think that uh... and the police uh... or uh... the people in the community are concerned with the welfare of the community. So you don't have an alien kind of situation where the police are watching the citizens, but the police don't even live in the commune. The police live right there in the commune. I think it's certainly in advance of the situation that we have here. In Oakland, a large percentage of the police do not even live in Oakland. As a matter of fact, that's one of our first initiatives after this election win-lose-or-draw. By way of initiative, I think we have to gather 15% of the total vote cash in signatures and to go on a special ballot. to require police to live in Oakland.

Speaker 1: I don't know if it'll make you feel any better, but I just talked to an Oakland police sergeant who just moved back to Oakland. So maybe something serious.

Huey P. Newton: Maybe he can tell his friends about it. It'll persuade them to move back.

Speaker 1: it uh... one of the biggest chris and i think of the police action and uh... overall police work in the united states is the secret police idea as evidenced by our central intelligence agency some of the activities of the fbi day in china do they have uh... as an overall uh... people watching squad like uh... intelligence agency uh... i'm sure they do uh... i wasn't because i didn't know i don't know too much about that part of uh...

Huey P. Newton: their government situation, but I'm sure they would have some sort of secret intelligence agency. It's by no means a perfect society. It's a poor country. I think that they're on the right road to to organize a kind of society where people can live in peace and happiness. But I would say that all of the problems in China have been solved, and I wouldn't say that they've solved the problems of humanity. But I think they're making an honest attempt to try.

Speaker 1: In the early stages of the book, you point out that when the party began that you had hoped or you had foreseen the possibility that you might die within a year because of the activities of the party. Has this fear of being assassinated or murdered been alleviated in the last few years, or are things getting better? I notice you didn't have much of a security force coming in here today.

Huey P. Newton: No, I don't travel with a large security force. The possibilities of being assassinated are still there. I'm watched and followed by the police. I don't think things have changed too much. That situation hasn't changed too much.

Speaker 1: Do you think those police officers who you mentioned in the book swore to get you are still out to get you?

Huey P. Newton: I think they would like for me to evaporate and not be here.

Speaker 1: How about danger from within the organization? Well, not within anymore, from outcast members of the Panther Party.

Huey P. Newton: They've dispersed, and I don't think there's much of a problem there. They don't have a viable group now. They've sort of gone in the various ways. So we're not too concerned about that situation anymore.

Speaker 1: I guess the most obvious criticism you get on most of the talk programs is people asking why you live in such a luxurious apartment so away from the people. Maybe you could clear that up for us, aside from the obvious security aspects of it.

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, well, that's why I live at 1200 Lakeshore. It's a security apartment just high up off the ground so I can't be shot. So it's pretty difficult to take an anti-aircraft gun, I guess, and shoot in the window. It's not an elaborate apartment. They don't build those around Oakland, elaborate apartments. The rent is astronomical, and the rent in Oakland is very high. It's higher than most places, but the pay is strictly for security. And until the time the community is organized so that people can be safe in community and I can be safe there, because I'm focused upon, I will have to maintain my outposts.

Speaker 1: It would appear from one of the photographs that they show of you in the book that you keep maybe a nostalgic observation of the Alameda County Courthouse. What goes through your mind when you think back looking through that telescope?

Huey P. Newton: Well, I have friends there, and I can identify a lot of the policemen that have high-powered scope. And sometimes I could see a few friends going from the cells to the attorney's room. I have friends there now. So I just keep in contact with them. They probably watch me and I watch them.

Speaker 1: There's one part in the book or something like that where you mentioned, I think, were you driving by Soledad, was it? And you thought about a lot of your friends that were in there at the moment. It was a very well-written section of the book and very dramatic. I wasn't sure whether it was Soledad or...

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, I think it was Soledad House. You were being transferred. Yeah, right. I was coming back down to the Albany County Courthouse for my second trial. And I have many friends there. And we, of course, send busses to the prisons and we keep communication with the prison. We have a commissary fund and so forth. We're prisoners who can't buy the basics like soap and shaving.

Speaker 1: uh... shaving uh... equipment that uh... we send them in uh... has the prison situation increment bettered itself lately over in the in the book you mentioned that uh... that they had writing in the car the guards uh... had been talking about what things are good and and you express maybe a little optimism that if they thought it wasn't good that maybe things would get better as a better than any noticeable changes uh... i think that the uh...

Huey P. Newton: that the prisons responded to Attica and George Jackson and the prison movement in a strange way. Strange because they didn't necessarily improve the conditions in a significant way. They gave more conjugal visits. And as soon as you don't go along, then they take away your conjugal visits. And so this is another way to humiliate and to control instead of rehabilitate. And so you'll go along with all sort of treatment simply to have that close relation. And so that makes the conjugal visit just another vehicle for control by the prisons.

Speaker 1: You described some hair-raising incidents in the hole at the Alameda County Jail. Who is the ultimate authority who puts people in the hole? I think that might be one of the problems. Is it the guard himself who decides you're going to the hole, or... How did it seem to in the book that they very easily made up their mind said, Huey, you've been messing around. You're going to the hole. Is it that fast and that swift?

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, it's that fast. And then after the next day, you meet a disciplinary board, which is a medical doctor, psychiatrist, a prison supervisor, a warden, and counselors, and a couple of policemen. And you're convicted when you go in. And you're not allowed to take witnesses with you. So it's a matter of just procedure. But you're in the hole once any prison guard says you're going. You go right that moment. And he just clears you with the watch officer. And that's the end of your trial.

Speaker 1: What eventually happened to Nice Man, one of the characters in the book? He was in the book briefly.

Huey P. Newton: I lost track of Nice Man. He's probably still in prison somewhere. It's pretty difficult when you've been to a number of prisons how to keep in contact with people you know. I really don't know whatever happened to Nice Man. Yes, I've got memories.

Speaker 1: Is there any way that you can establish, or are you trying now to establish a communication line between prisoners and different prisoners that maybe would like to know what's happening?

Huey P. Newton: You mean between the prisoners?

Speaker 1: Yes, say a prisoner in San Quentin wanted to talk to someone.

Huey P. Newton: No, the only way you can do that is through what we call a prison grapevine, and that is sending out a note, or as we call it, a cake, by a prisoner who's being transferred, and he finds out where he's going. But it's illegal for one prison to communicate with another.

Speaker 1: Why is that? Do they fear a statewide insurrection? I can't see how that would be possible. It meant behind bars.

Huey P. Newton: I think it's just part of the decadence in the whole prison situation. The whole thing is to isolate you and not prepare you for the world, but to keep you out of it forever if they can.

Speaker 1: What's happening now with the Panthers? What is in the immediate future besides the election of Bobby Seale?

Huey P. Newton: We'll go on organizing the community with our survival programs. We'll fight via initiative to get as many things changed as possible. I think it's our obligation to change what we can change. at this time and just look to the future for total change. And I think that it's the wrong, incorrect tactic to try to change the whole without changing the parts first.

Speaker 1: Brassard could assist people who would like to pick up the book Revolutionary Suicide by Huey P. Newton. Tell them where to get it sometimes. I've tried to get books and major bookstores don't have them for months until the demand becomes great enough. Are there bookstores now that you know of?

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, I think Cody's. Is it Cody's in Berkeley? Cody's Books. Yeah, they're carrying it, I understand. It's supposed to be at all the bookstores around, but you just hit it on the head. The distribution by the companies are pretty bad sometimes. But I know that it can be picked up at Cody's Bookstore.

Speaker 1: Or if you put enough pressure on your local bookstore.

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, right. Just go in and ask the preparator for the book, and they're glad for the sales, so they'll send for it.

Speaker 1: There's one overall feeling I got reading the book that fascinated me. You hardly ever engage in the lexicon of the ghetto, and I was thinking, is this book written primarily toward white people, toward white consumption? I was thinking that about the price, too.

Huey P. Newton: Well, you know, that's Harcourt Brace and Jonovich's fault. And the book will be out next year. It's a whole year before it's out in paperback. And, of course, when you write a book that... In order to get it distributed, you sell it to a book publishing company. And then essentially the book is their book. And they do what they want pretty near. And you get something like 15% on the dollar, you know. And the book is very expensive. It is $8.95. And I hope the paperback, you know, it's in the dollar bracket. But I have very little to do with that. The book, when I wrote the book, I was attempting to get a point across to tell about my experiences and experiences of the party. I was writing for people and for poor people and whoever else would like to read it, whoever else. Perhaps I didn't do a good job because people asked me over and over, did I write it for a special class, you know? And the answer is no. and perhaps my next book that

Speaker 1: all right in such a way that uh... will be easily read you don't think it's easy to read all right it's just fine but there's a a severe lack of funk yeah to language i think that the people you know relate to a little more that uh... brings out a little where i'm not a book critic and i'm saying that but yeah that was just a feeling i got it was very scholarly you know and meeting you now i can do i say that's the way you talk anyway that's the way you speak i guess i'm a victim of the bourgeois institution A lot of thanks this morning to Huey P. Newton for stopping by and talking with us on response and talking about the new book, Revolutionary Suicide.