Huey Newton Interview (Oct 17, 1968)

Denny Smithson: Officials at the Vacable Medical Facility allowed the press to speak to Black Panther Party founder, Huey P. Newton, Wednesday and Thursday of this week, for the first time since his recent trial. KPFA was told Huey would be allowed to visit with the press from 1 to 3 p.m. on Thursday, and we arrived at 1 precisely. Entering the facility, which is a cop-out word like device as in nuclear device, Entering the prison meant showing press identification, signing in, getting my wrist invisibly stamped, waiting for a series of steel gates to slide open with no two ever opening it at the same time, showing more identification, signing more slips of paper, going through more steel doors, until I was in the prisoner's area where I didn't know what to do with my eyes and they didn't know what to do with my beard. I was finally led to a small office to wait for Huey Newton, who I was told was with his psychologist, a Dr. Sorenson. A short while later, two other members of the press arrived. Joe Blum, who's the editor of The Movement, and Karen Wald of both the Movement and the Guardian. We waited, and waited until 2.30, meanwhile making several somewhat half-hearted attempts to point out the time to various officials, one of whom politely informed us that Mr. Sorensen's work was just as important as ours. Of course, for us, there was no possibility of returning tomorrow, but it is difficult to bring oneself to argue with the establishment when locked up in it. Before using a phone to contact the official who had arranged for us to see Huey, we were warned to dial quickly because any phone left off the hook for longer than 10 seconds would set off an alarm. At 2.30, Huey was brought to our tiny office and we began to talk. The first voice you hear is that of Huey P. Newton.

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, I've been reading Fromm's book. I have about three of them. Man For Himself, and I just finished reading Beyond the Chains of Illusion by Fromm. And I read Desch's book.

Joe Blum: You got to read all three volumes?

Huey P. Newton: No, they didn't have all three volumes. They just had one book. But I feel pretty good. It's called The Iron Prophet.

Joe Blum: well there are three of them the prophet and the prophet he mentioned it you mentioned it but there's only one that's a drag because it goes on for a thousand pages more after that yeah it's a good one yeah i'm surprised it's in this library

Denny Smithson: After this brief discussion with Joe Blum, Huey began poring over the various issues of both the under and above ground press brought in by Joe and Karen. One contained a picture of Huey taken Wednesday, his head practically shaved.

Karen Wald: I'm glad they had that picture. It made it not such a shock.

Huey P. Newton: What?

Karen Wald: So I'm glad that they had that picture, because I've never seen such a show. Because even Alex said to me that you had your hair cut all off short.

Huey P. Newton: No, he was completely bald when he came last, I think. Yeah.

Joe Blum: Is it mandatory to be that short?

Huey P. Newton: No, you see, the guys gave me a real bad haircut when I came in. So I just cut it all off, because it left patches, you know? You have to get it cut real short. So I just cut it all off so it would be even when it grows back. Did you cut it yourself?

Karen Wald: No.

Huey P. Newton: We didn't have a barber or any inmate.

Joe Blum: Did they allow mustaches? No.

Huey P. Newton: Nothing.

Karen Wald: Has the press been reasonably fair? In those reports, you said that they hacked up two and a half hours of interview in one minute.

Huey P. Newton: But this was the news on the TV, 6 o'clock news. They never put very much, you know. But this was very bad because... What did they play on? They only played up one question. I was asked, how did I feel about Officer Frey? And... I explained that whenever anyone is killed or hurt, that I feel sympathy and great compassion for them. And I went on to explain that I had no responsibility for them because I was innocent, but still that the Panthers are against killing and against all wars. As a matter of fact, I explained that mind to a little where advocates of the abolition of war. But they didn't explain this, they just said that I felt remorseful about it, that this is all they played, you see, and then they could be interpreted well on copying out, and stuff like that, you know.

Karen Wald: I guess that it goes without saying what your reaction to the trial was, but I'm really very curious about how specifically, you know, And what specific things did you react negatively to about the trial? I mean, obviously you felt that it was unjust and that everything went, you know, the wrong way. What points, you know, do you point to and say, there's one of them?

Huey P. Newton: Well, one, that blacks were systematically excluded, and we had... uh much evidence on this including the fact that the public defender's department reported to the attorneys uh to uh to gary that um it had been their experience whenever black was tried that uh there wouldn't be any more than one or two blacks on the jury But in the other courtrooms where blacks were defendants, there were four and five blacks on the jury. And the public defender felt that the DA had ordered his department not to dismiss any blacks off the jury on a pre-infiltratory challenge so that they wouldn't be a part of my panel. This wasn't presented because the Public Defender's Department refused to testify to this, even though they had given the information to my attorney. So this is one instance of an injustice. The district attorney didn't want to be embarrassed by having to challenge even more blacks than 26, which he did challenge and left one on the jury. So this is one. The other thing is how Jensen attempted to erase the tape recording. This was the change of where Greer, the bus driver, which was a star witness for the prosecution, stated that he didn't see the defendant or who was allegedly the defendant. clearly because he only had his lights on. And at the trial, he said that he did see him clearly because he had his lights on. And we've got the tape two days after the jury was out. The tape was listened to the night before it was presented in court. It was very clear on the tape. It was in possession of the DA that he He said that he didn't see the person clearly. But the DA, one was listened to in court. The DA apparently had erased that part that the judge couldn't even hear. And it was lucky that we had transcribed the tape to another tape recorder and played it, else I would have been lost completely if we hadn't done that. So this was just treachery by the district attorney's department. So that's another instance.

Karen Wald: I presume that all of these points will be used in attempts to get retrials. But it does look as if, according to Mr. Gary, that you will probably be here at least 18 months before anything comes of that.

Huey P. Newton: Maybe even longer, actually.

Karen Wald: Except that he should be out now on bail.

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, right. But they won't give me bail. That's another discriminatory practice they're using. that manslaughter, that you're eligible for bail but it's in the discretion of the court after conviction. And they wouldn't give bail to me in spite of the fact that the community that they wanted to protect sent in about 29,000 signatures asking for my release on bail. The judge showed that it was a good, bureaucratic capitalist. And the reason I say that is because he wouldn't give this control to the people that he was gonna control it like he saw fit and conformed it to the political machine's desire. And I wasn't released on bail.

Karen Wald: After the trial, you were taken immediately, or brought immediately to Vacaville. I couldn't believe when a newsman, I was standing in the crowd outside the Alameda County Courthouse just after the trial was over, but a newsman was really accurate when he said he'd seen you go by in a station wagon and that you raised your fist. I couldn't believe that... that the security of the whole setup, since it had been so tied up to them, would have allowed them to actually drive you directly by the group that was waiting outside. That's exactly what happened, though. Is that right? About six cars. And there was just one station wagon, and you were... No, there were six cars. Oh, I see. I see. You just didn't see it.

Huey P. Newton: I had a six-car escort to Vacaville, all the way down.

Karen Wald: But you were taken out of the courtroom and put in the station wagon. It must have been like that. That's right.

Huey P. Newton: I didn't even return to my cell. I went directly down. Matter of fact, they were so anxious to get me out, they packed about five of someone else's suits into the boxes. I don't know if they got them back to the guy or not. I recognized the clothing. I told them who they belonged to.

Karen Wald: What do you think of the discretion of the court in granting bail to the cop, the San Francisco cop that murdered the black guy in San Francisco? Do you know that they gave him bail?

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, they gave him bail and then they reversed that.

Karen Wald: No, they gave it to him again today, a $25,000 bail.

Huey P. Newton: Because the cops resigned, took 200 cops. No. This was rumored.

Joe Blum: They didn't do it. They've been playing that rumor up that they didn't go to the highway patrol. Two of the hundred were recorded.

Huey P. Newton: Oh, is that right?

Joe Blum: They first let this guy out on O.R. and then they put him back in. Yeah. They didn't ask for bail.

Huey P. Newton: $25,000 bail. Yeah. That's material for the community to explode. Yeah.

Karen Wald: What's it been like here? Has it been as bad as far as your being hassled is concerned as Alameda County was, or has it been an improvement? Have you been given a hard time?

Huey P. Newton: Well, as far as the physical conditions, it's an improvement because I have a privilege to exercise, to go to the library. As far as attitude, still a very hostile attitude, and every day I have some altercation or the police are reprimanding me for some petty thing and actually making a big scene out of it, attempting to provoke me. But I've submitted to the intimidation thus far because I realize that they would like to provoke me into... The prisons are very concerned about it. They've noticed that each day there's some other sort of minor... What kind of things? Well, it's really not anything very serious. I'll give you an example. No, this was Saturday, this particular thing. I was supposed to leave my unit at 7.30. I have a car to go to X Corridor at 7.30. And you have a car to go different parts of the jail at different times. This cop told over the speaker everyone to lock up. And I didn't lock up because I had gone before at 7.30, I have an early appointment. And after, well, after everyone locked up and he called me out and said, well, everyone locked up but the wing workers, they're guys who keep the wing straight. And he called me out and the police called me out then and said, why haven't you, why didn't you come to my desk? I said, well, I didn't hear you call me. He says, well, I told everyone to lock up, and you didn't lock up, and I called you by name. Well, it's difficult for me to understand the speakers. I don't know whether he called me or not, but I hear the noise, but it's scrambled, you know, over the speakers. So I said, but he says, well, whenever I call you, you're supposed to come, you know, and he said, He's saying it in a very hostile, very belligerent way, pointing his finger and so forth. And so I said that whenever I, if I had heard him, I would have responded. And that, what did you want me to do? Do you want me to lock up? I showed him my work card. And he continued to make an issue out of it while the other inmates watch, you know, because the inmates are watching to see, well, what am I going to do about this, you think? So then he said, well, I'm going to go in the room, and you get on the speaker and call me. I'll see if I can hear. So he went into the room, and so I went up to the speaker and pretended I pressed the button, but I didn't. And then he stayed in there for a while. He ran out. He was very upset. And as he came out, I said, well, did you hear me? He didn't say anything. He said, you go in there and see if I can hear you. And all the time, the inmates were watching, a big scene. So then I walk in, and he calls my name. And I step out, and I said, well, you did much better that time. And then he said, well, whenever I call you, I want you to come. So I said, I will respond if I hear you. And every day it's something like this, you see. Or something in the mess hall where I missed a seat, maybe. And this is a big earth-shaking issue, you see. You're supposed to fill each table up. If you overlook a table and you're subject to go to the hole. You know, as far as the way they talk to you, I didn't go to the hole about it. But I was reprimanded.

Joe Blum: Have you been subject to the hole since you're here?

Huey P. Newton: Well, when I first came here, I was put in the hole. But I was treated... like the inmate on the main line, I could still come out of my cell. But I was in the side where the guys don't come out. I was the only one to come out. And sometimes they would forget to feed me. But I would miss breakfast, but they would feed me after when they finally discovered that I was supposed to come out, you see. Because they wouldn't, they'd bring the food up to the other guys who never leave. Something like at the county where they'd bring everything to you because the guys are in there all day. But I was always on the main line, but For a few days I was kept on the whole side, but now I'm out. I'm on the regular main line. I live in a unit where all the guys are out.

Joe Blum: They're individual cells? Individual cells. Are you working?

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, I'm supposed to be a janitor in X corridor, but so far that I've been able to to evade the work. There's really nothing that you have to do. It's more or less everyone's supposed to be assigned to a particular place. The first time, the reason I really got the job was so that I could be out of my cell more. I had been locked up for a year and I needed to exercise, you know. And you get out of your cell more. You don't have to lock up when the other guys lock up. But I haven't had to... So far I can go inside of X-Corp and there are many empty rooms and I can go in and read. So I'll get my library books and go in there and read practically all day when I'm at the gym or outside on the yard. It's kind of really an instant advantage because the library only stays open two hours. There aren't too many places you can go. You can go to the gym, the yard, or the library. The library is only open two hours, so if you go to the gym, there's so much noise you can't read. Or out in the yard, you can't take any library books. So I can always go to the ex-corridor rooms and the vacant rooms that are not being used for counseling. It's a pretty good deal. I work out every morning at the gym.

Karen Wald: It's pretty good. When we arrived, you were in with a psychologist, Dr. Sorensen, I believe his name was. How often does this happen? It's the first day.

Huey P. Newton: Oh, I see. What's that like? It was just a conversation today that he tried to get off into the case, and I told him that we couldn't really intelligently discuss it because we would be very contrary. His first question was, well, how do you control your emotions under stress? And I said that I had no problem whatsoever. He said, well, you are here. And I said, yes, I'm here, and we probably can't discuss this because... I'll talk about one thing, you're talking about another because you're assuming, because I'm here, that I'm guilty. And I'm not guilty, so we can't relate to each other in any sort of significant way. So he understood and dropped that, so then we just talked about social issues and talked about the prison here. as well.

Karen Wald: It was a pretty good discussion. What would you be seeing once a week or something like that? That's the way it works out. Is it mandatory and then all the rest of it?

Huey P. Newton: Um, I don't know. They have a, um, the only thing that's mandatory so far is the Maybe this was mandatory, too, because if you don't actually duck it, then it's cause for disciplinary action against you. So I just received a slip to go to his office. But I go to an orientation twice a week, and there's a sociologist or maybe a psychologist in there, and it's a group discussion. And it's pretty interesting. The inmates say a lot of things that are interesting. A lot of their attitudes are pretty out of sight, too.

Karen Wald: Like about what?

Huey P. Newton: Well, about the whole penal institution, about society in general. You get guys that are almost totally destroyed, you know. It's not really funny, like funny, funny. But it's interesting, and the way that the counselor tries to relate to him, and he's talking as insane as the guy is practically, because his whole therapy seems to be, if it's supposed to be therapy, I don't know what it's supposed to be. He's telling the guy that he should get a job and, you know, work at something. And he can't see the guy's real problem is that many of the inmates, that they had no real purpose, you know. They talk about taking their time up when they get on parole. You know, you're just fooling around. You're going to these night spots. And if you had been on this job, then everything would have been all right. So this seems to be the counselor, this is what he says anyway, his attitude to make yourself useful, you see. And he doesn't see that this is all very empty to this inmate because he's trying to fill the emptiness of his whole life. This one particular guy was saying, how the adult authority and everyone was down on him and the guy gets on the street and he can't get a job and the adult authority is working this all the time so make sure he can't get this job and then he comes back here and then they won't let him out and he didn't do anything but go over to the topless clubs often and the guy says All you want people to do is give you, give you, give you things. And if they don't give it to you, then you'll take it. And the counselor doesn't understand. This is the whole system that the guys are pretty well adjusted, really. the guys in here, because they understood that if no one would give it to them, they're going to take things, you know. And the whole human factor is never discussed. So far it hasn't been. on a matter of purpose and showing the decadence of the society. Of course, the counselor won't, if he mentions this, he will mention it in sort of a passing way that there's certain things wrong with the social structure. But basically, he views the inmates as being not very well adjusted when they are extremely well adjusted. that I've seen in the group. So, he seems to be missing tomorrow.

Joe Blum: Are you scraping the mountain?

Huey P. Newton: So far, so far. Today was the first day that I talked a little, because the counselor talked to me. Mostly I was listening to the inmates, you know, sort of, sort of see where they were were standing and most of them seem to be pretty unenlightened or they're not very conscious as far as being cognizant of the political and social ills. They know that something is wrong and they know that they're not fitting in the game. they can't really see. It's still sort of unconscious, these things that are controlling them. They haven't unveiled it, you know. So some of them even protect, you know, maybe they're doing it to front for the council, but they'll try to protect the system. Say, well, you know you were doing wrong, you know. And this whole thing boils around to following the law, abiding by the law, doing wrong or doing right as related to the law. And they discuss nothing, you know, about the purpose or purpose in life.

Karen Wald: You said earlier you alluded to the fact that you were being watched by the other inmates when you made certain moves. What has been the reaction of others other inmates to you since you arrived in Vacaville? I mean, actually, administration probably, you know, is clear and understandable, but has there been a mixed reaction? Have you been well-received, or even what does that mean?

Huey P. Newton: I think I've been well-received, very friendly. The inmates are friendly. Those I don't know, they walk up and they talk to me. I think they expected me to organize something as soon as I got here, Of course I haven't because first I have to get adjusted to the situation or at least understand the dynamics that are working here more than adjusted. The second thing is to figure out some things that we can do. I think they were expecting a for me to respond to the bulls in a belligerent fashion. because they've directed their hostilities at me and said, you know, that they're just focused on you, you know, because some of the police have asked the inmates, well, which one is Newton, you know, and most of them do that. As a matter of fact, even people coming in touring, they want to know what we're doing. So, they tell me that they heard the last of the fools. Where am I located?

Joe Blum: How long are you scheduled to stay here? 90 days? And any indication of where you're going? No, not really.

Huey P. Newton: I think they'll send me down to CM East, down to St. Louis, Obispo.

Karen Wald: Because it's the farthest away that they can send you?

Huey P. Newton: Probably.

Joe Blum: What is that, medium security? I think so.

Karen Wald: Why were you brought here for six days? Is that normal procedure?

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, this is a medical facility where they run a battery and test on you to... so they can know what kind of person you are and so forth. But so far I file them up on a test. How'd you do that? Well, like half, I don't know, it's mostly how I feel. Some of the tests I read and I would get hung up on, you know. Like one thing they had on history and they talked about the railroads and when the railroads came in and and I'll get hung up on it just by accident, and I'll start concentrating on answering the questions correctly. But then about half or two-thirds of the tests, it's very, it's not interesting to me, so I'll just go through it and just make black marks on the paper, you know, with the IBM sheets. So then half of the tests, you know, I was doing really well. Then the other half, I got zero. Then they, matter of fact, Because in some of the tests I just went through it and got zero on the whole test, because a three hour test I would do it in three minutes and walk out of the room. Because, number one, I can't see where it would be of any advantage to me to reveal myself to them in any kind of way. But the only times where I make a mistake with the test is interesting. They called me in to take a retest on one of the exams.

Karen Wald: What kind of tests are they?

Huey P. Newton: Oh, they're just... Most of them are aptitude tests, likes and dislikes, and those sort of tests. But then they had this one section on... This one section of the text I liked on history. That was the part I got hung up on. And then you would do another part with general intelligence or aptitude, again, with the symbols. How many boxes like this? Or how many circles are in the box? Stuff like that, yeah.

Karen Wald: I'm going to have to change tapes in a minute.

Huey P. Newton: Yeah, oh, they told me, they retested me, and they said that this time the counselor, the inmates give the test. This time the counselor was going to observe me doing this test, so they gave me another test, and it was a half-hour test, and I finished that in a minute. I started to walk out, and the counselor said, Newton, come back. So I went back, and he said... you can do a decent job on this test in a minute. No, no, first he said, you can finish this test in a minute. I said, well, I did, you see. So you can do a decent job on this test in a minute. I said, am I required to do a decent job? So he blew it.

Karen Wald: He said, no, no, you're not required to do a decent job, neither are we.

Huey P. Newton: We're not required to do a decent job either. And I said, well, that's between you and your superior, whether you do a decent job or not. I'm not interested, you know. It's pretty fun.

Karen Wald: So now they've got you down for low incentive.

Huey P. Newton: I don't know. Who knows what that does? I just talked to the psychologist. He had all my tests there. And he said that... He said my tests were puzzling. I didn't explain anything to him. He said that we don't know, we still don't know anything about you or we don't know whether the test was valid or or what it reflects you know and i said so i said well do you have to know you know what the uh he said well this is just i hang up you know these tests i said well you know i'm not hung up on tests and so it was a very good thing i got a change too okay i'll jump back in with both feet um

Karen Wald: I guess this is probably the most serious question I had in mind to ask you when I came in today, and so I'll approach it that way. What do you think the effect is going to be on the Black Panther Party if you and Eldridge and Bobby all end up in jail? How do you think it might change the party? How do you think it might change the mood? Because you are the three most outstanding spokesmen at the moment.

Huey P. Newton: I think that David Hillary and Hilliard and George Murray and Kath Lee will have a big job on their hands but I think they'll be able to handle it and Bill Brent is a very fine worker and Wade And some other Panthers who've been taking a leading role, I think their work will just increase, but I'm sure they'll be able to handle the leadership of the Panther in the event that Eldridge, Bobby, and I are kept out of circulation for a while. One good thing, we have laid down a program, and it's not like taking a... leaders off of the... the leaders from the party and therefore taking the program or taking the philosophy away that it was our... one of our major... One of the major things we attempted to do was to create a program so that the community could follow. And so we hope that other people who have leadership abilities will be attracted to the program and to the community and go on with the liberation struggle.

Karen Wald: So you then definitely feel that the... The philosophy behind the black campus wouldn't change at all. It would simply be carried on.

Huey P. Newton: Yes. In our paper, we have a very good deputy minister of information, Raymond Lewis, who's doing a fine job on the paper along with Eldridge Cleaver. So Eldridge has already groomed an editor. And from the paper, I've read the papers, he's been doing a fine job. So I think things will go on until I return.

Karen Wald: Do you have any feeling that there may be people involved in the Panthers who, as the three of you are locked up, will get that much more frustrated? It seems to me to be an inevitable part of the whole process. do you expect an increasing sense of militancy if this sort of thing continues to happen?

Huey P. Newton: I think that as the people of the world become more oppressed and as the political repression escalates in this country, that the people are going to be led to rebellion and then revolution. So I think this is a necessary stage that the Liberation Front is going through just as they're escalating the oppression in Vietnam, the higher the morale of the Vietnamese people are. And this is just one example of an oppressed people fighting for a long period of time under very adverse circumstances. I think we'll be no different here.

Karen Wald: Is there anything in particular you'd like to talk about that I haven't touched on?

Huey P. Newton: I'm always very lost when people ask me that question because there's a whole abundance of things I could talk about. Well, here's what I understand.

Joe Blum: I was going to ask you about the prospect of At least you're being in prison talking to inmates and doing a degree of organizing of people who are going to be coming out all the time. Some people perhaps have been in since before the Panthers formed and with the censorship could never have seen the Panther papers anyway. And most of those things, potential Panthers in the prison system itself. So you're being locked up doesn't necessarily stop organizing.

Huey P. Newton: I'll be honest with you, I haven't made an effort to organize so far because as I said, I was becoming familiar with the procedure here and also with the inmates, but inmates have joined the Panther. So far about ten inmates have approached me and even though I haven't solicited any members, they've approached me and asked if they could join the Panther and now some of them are on their way to other institutions and they want materials which I don't have. So I'm writing out some things for them so that they can take with them and study and cooperate into their thinking.

Joe Blum: I was thinking that would be a natural process in a movement spreading, especially among a certain positive population most oppressed by ending up in these prisons. I'm sure it must be like Alameda County Jail in terms of the number of black prisoners.

Karen Wald: What is the percentage, or have you been able to figure out at all, of the black-to-white ratio?

Huey P. Newton: There's a large percentage of blacks, maybe about 60-70% black, roughly. This is strictly from observation, maybe 20% off or so, I don't know. But there's a large amount of blacks here. But as I said, they haven't solicited, but some inmates have joined up and asked for directions. It's kind of difficult because I am focused on this point, and the inmates themselves have cautioned me to be very careful because of, what we call the dead brothers, who were snitches or rats. And many of them who joined up have cautioned me to be very careful about what I say. what people I talk to so I'm still sort of feeling myself around the place but I plan to do some more one of the things that I would really like to start is a campaign about half the guys here are Here on the straight violations, it's called, they don't have a new charge against them. They moved or something without notifying a parole officer. They come back here, maybe do a couple more years, and they get their time re-fixed. It's called the adult authority, when they left on parole, fixed their time in California's indeterminate sentence, say five to life, and when they're being paroled, The adult authority then will fix their time, say, eight years. And then they'll be discharged after eight years, but they'll be out on parole, say, three years. While they ultimately move, and then they'll be violated, they'll come back here, and their time is refixed at the maximum, which is life. After life, they start the whole process over again. So this seems that it will be double jeopardy. The courts don't fix the time, and if the courts were to sentence you to a specific number of years when they used to sentence you to a specific number of years, this was your time, and they could later on re-fix it and say that, well, we're going to give you more time after this. But the adult authority doesn't follow this, and so far the courts have somewhat held them, stood with the adult authority. I've been thinking of organizing a movement, which would be a Panther project, of putting some attorneys together on the outside, say about 10 are willing to contribute some time, and maybe they could get a post office box for contributions to give them some financial aid, and research this and interview some of the inmates. Many of them have told me that they're interested in it. and challenge this particular law of re-fixing time. And matter of fact, the inmates are very enthusiastic about it. I've talked to a number of them because they've asked me about Eldridge's case. So they're very interested on that point. And this is the kind of project that I would like to start. as far as any resistance in the jail, which I am an activist, but I've never seen any point in really organizing the physical resistance in jail. I never have because you always lose.

Denny Smithson: It is difficult to imagine winning. After the conversation between Huey Newton and Joe Blum and Karen Walden and myself was over, getting out of Vacaville required more identification, more signatures, more sliding steel gates, and this time a challenge from one guard who wanted to know why I had no pass. I said I was with the press, and he said laughing in a friendly way, all the more reason to check. I smiled. The last gate clanged behind me. They checked my wrist under ultraviolet light for the half-moon stamp there. And I walked out into the parking lot, full of sunshine and the smell of onions rotting in the sun in nearby fields. This is Denny Smithson of KPFA's Public Affairs Department.