Huey Newton Interview : August 11, 1970

Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with Huey P. Newton. We have not had anything but your voice here before, Huey. And now we have you. You've been inside for 33 months. When you went in, it was rather a different world, both for black and white people, than it is now. And you have come out to make your contribution to both the black and the white world. And I think that the way we'd better arrange this particular talk is to go first into some of the very immediate things which you find yourself facing, and then perhaps return to some of the more basic things that you would like to share with the audience. One of the events which has happened within the last six days since you've been out is the very tragic situation in Marin County and its effect on the Soledad brothers' case. It is my understanding that the Panthers are going to offer their support And perhaps you would like to tell us something about the events of the next few days regarding that specific thing.

Huey P. Newton: We won't only offer our support. The Black Panther Party will administer the funeral. It will be a revolutionary funeral of Brother Jonathan Jackson and Brother William Christmas. brother McClain, his body has been shipped to Los Angeles. So the Black Panther Party will administer and give these revolutionary comrades a revolutionary funeral, which they deserve, and we're inviting the people to the funeral. We would be very happy if we have that support from the community. It would be encouraging to the family and to the revolution as a whole because we feel that the event that occurred in Marin was certainly a colossal event, and it has changed the whole relationship between the oppressed and the oppressor. The funeral will be held at St. Augustine Church on 27th and West Street this Saturday at 9 o'clock, and we're inviting everyone to come. We feel that because of the consciousness of the three comrades who were killed, who were murdered, that the event is even more important or was more important than what occurred in Watts, the Watts uprising, or even the Detroit uprising, which was a sporadic... unorganized uprising. It lacked the consciousness and certainly lacked the revolutionary fervor exemplified in the move of Brother Jonathan Jackson in particular. Brother Jonathan Jackson, 17-year-old, who had no prison record whatsoever. He acted strictly upon a principle that says that the corrupt, racist lords can make no law that the oppressed people are bound to respect.

Speaker 1: Well, it certainly has opened up, this whole Soledad case has opened up a very much more close examination and I think awareness on the part of the whole community of the situations inside the prisons and inside the courtrooms. For example, I believe it is true that the prosecuting attorney in this case was married to the niece of the judge. That, I believe, is technically illegal, and yet this is the kind of thing which could happen normally, and no one would know the difference. If it had not been for the shooting of the three black men at Soledad and the subsequent murder of the White Guard, the conditions in Owing at Soledad would never have been known. In other words, it opens up the whole subject of political prisoners and the conditions inside our prisons, and perhaps you would like to comment on that.

Huey P. Newton: Yes, it's historically correct as the struggle intensifies, as the battle intensifies, that the evils of the oppressor is focused upon. And this is why that he time and time again tries to define the oppressed people and the revolutionaries who are the vanguard of the people's struggle and the people's interests as criminals. The bourgeoisie would like us to believe that a group of hoodlums or criminals are the only people who would use certain methods to liberate themselves. the bourgeoisie reserves the right to use force. And if anyone else uses force in an attempt as a last resort to gain his dignity and secure his manhood, then we're bombarded with the propaganda machine of the mass media that is an institution controlled by the bourgeoisie. The Soledad brothers are also some very revolutionary brothers. They were framed up on the execution of a policeman at Soledad shortly after three blacks were killed in the adjustment center and one white wounded. And this was a planned assassination. and there was much evidence, and it was common knowledge among the prisoners exactly how the plot went. But this was suppressed, and subsequently the prison guard was given a justifiable homicide, as always. Shortly after this, the guard was killed, and which was a very revolutionary act. Some patriots, some members of the People's Revolutionary Force certainly did the act, but the three Soledad brothers are innocent. They were framed up because of a long history of speaking out against the treacherous tactics of the prison guards. George Jackson has spent some 10 years in prison on a one-to-life. Normally a person would get out in two years or two and a half years on a one-to-life. But because of his political consciousness, they felt him too dangerous to be on the street. Perhaps he went into jail. I believe he went into jail for, excuse me, a strong-arm robbery or some common crime, which probably has political overtones within itself. But the prison kept him so long until he had time to really become conscious. And this is when they started to be afraid to let him out. If he had remained unconscious and loyal to their capitalistic state, then he would have certainly been out some years ago. but i believe you also have very specific views on the subject of capital punishment which is also a part of our prison system uh yes uh the black panther party plans to uh send an open letter to the u.s supreme court and uh the gist of the thrust of the letter uh would be that uh first of all we realize that capital punishment is reserved for uh poor people, and people of color. And we can easily see this when we examined the death row, and we see that only poor whites and blacks and Mexicans and other colored people people or black people or people of color reach death row. So it's strictly a class thing and it's high time that someone intervenes between the madman and the people. We view the judicial system as not only a corrupt institution that's there to preserve the status and the power of the bourgeoisie or those who own, but also as a group of treacherous murderers. And we will serve notice upon the Supreme Court because that something must be done, the death penalty must be outlawed, or else there will be a political consequence, will intensify the struggle, and we will stop this slaughter.

Speaker 1: Huey, one of the things that you mentioned at your press conference, which has been widely commented on and which you didn't have a chance to go into in any depth, was your suggestion that the Panther Party was going to send what you referred to as troops to Vietnam.

Huey P. Newton: Yes, that we have committed an undisclosed number of troops to the Revolutionary People's Republic of Vietnam, to the National Liberation Front, the provisional government in the South. We offer these troops in a spirit of revolutionary solidarity, and we are awaiting a response. There's been some indication that the response will be favorable. The Vietnamese people and the people of the world in general are very impressed. And we feel justified in committing these troops, even though we realize we have many problems here, domestic problems. But we feel that because the oppressor also has domestic problems and he still finds time to meddle in other people's business, to slaughter people throughout the world, certainly we can find time to aid our friends.

Speaker 1: Well, the question arises, what would the status of such people be? I've heard the word oppressor. Wouldn't that be treason?

Huey P. Newton: My understanding of treason is when a patriot aids the enemy under a condition of a declared war.

Speaker 1: Giving aid and comfort to the enemy in a time of war.

Huey P. Newton: Yes, and the first thing that we view the Vietnamese people and certainly the American people view the Vietnamese people not as enemies but as friends. This has been demonstrated through the many peace mobilizations and also that there's a uh america has a history of committing uh of of troops or american citizens fighting in foreign armies uh americans fought in the the spanish civil war against the fascist franco uh there are americans fighting now in israel uh in the israeli army uh there were Americans committed to the Canadian Army in World War II. And only at that time, the ruling circle saw it in their interest to not to prosecute or not to charge these men with treason. Working from this, we say that it doesn't fall under treason because there's no declared war, number one. The war is illegal. And if they want to charge us with treason, we invite them to do so because in order to prove treason, we would first have to put the war on trial to see if the war is a legal war. And we would be very happy to do that. we're willing to make any revolutionary sacrifice necessary in order to advance the interests of the people of the world.

Speaker 1: In other words, you're not worried about the idea that the people who went there might lose their citizenship?

Huey P. Newton: No, of course not, because the first thing that we couldn't be worried about a simple thing such as an American citizenship when the brothers who go there might lose their lives. So our concern is to see that the fascist imperialist is whipped and driven back to his own country And we have friends everywhere we can hear the imperialists whip crack. And we view the developing countries of the world as the countryside of the world. And as one developing country becomes free and it advances the freedom of all of us, Because until we choke the imperialist raw material, which he gets from the developing country, which he rapes and robs from the developing country, there will be no chance of liberation at home here. In other words, that we see a definite connection between our enslavement, our exploitation, and the exploitation of the Vietnamese people and people of Cambodia, Thailand, Latin America. Asia and Africa. So we intend not only to send troops to Vietnam, but eventually we're willing to go anywhere in the world where we have comrades.

Speaker 1: Well, that brings me to the next subject I'd like you to discuss, and that is that the revolutionary movement all over the world has changed appreciably in the last three years among the white radicals, among the black people, among the third world people in general. I know that during the time that you were inside, that you were aware of these things from a factual standpoint. that you spent your time studying and preparing yourself. But how does it strike you now as you emerge to find a national, even an international movement among young people of all races all over the world, and where do you think it's going to go?

Huey P. Newton: It's definitely going to go to victory, and I'm overwhelmed with joy that I'm able to see the unity that is existing among the people who are oppressed, not only nationally but internationally. We feel that in order for us here in America to eliminate the evils of the world, we must eliminate imperialism and an international bourgeoisie that finds its strength here in Babylon or North America. In order to do this, the Black Panther Party takes a stand that our party is no longer a revolutionary nationalist party, but we're revolutionary internationalists. We're revolutionary socialists because we're fighting an international bourgeoisie, so necessarily we would... tactics and strategies would have to be based upon internationalism. That doesn't mean that we reject or denounce other countries that are fighting wars of national liberation. Countries such as Vietnam, We feel it has a right for self-determination and surely independence. And because, number one, they've never oppressed other countries. They don't operate an empire. They operate a country. while America is no longer a country, but it's an empire. So therefore, we can't even speak in terms of nationalism because nationalism perpetrated in this country has enslaved the world. This country has no right any longer to be a nationalist country because it's stolen the wealth from every developing country in the world in order to build a high standard of living here for the ruling circle, that is. And because of these evils, that this country must think in terms of transforming the world and replenishing the world, sharing with the developing countries in a friendship way and even being obligated to them. Obligated to them in the sense that this country has been a pirate and a robber and now it's only justified that this country pays off. And this is why the party The Black Panther Party is hooked up with every struggling liberation front in the world because only through this unity are we able to defeat such a powerful, treacherous enemy.

Speaker 1: And you do not see it either as a national struggle purely, nor do you see it as a racial struggle purely.

Huey P. Newton: It's not a, as far as this country is concerned, that the struggle cannot even take a national character. It must take an international character because what you have is not a nation. It's an empire, so therefore we can't relate to it. It's something that it's not. As far as racism is concerned, that we realize racism is rampant in this country, and this is why, in spite of the fact that we're working towards a socialist society, we're not under the illusion that this would automatically... wipe out racism. It's known in sociology that when a structure changes or physical structure changes or social structure changes, usually there's a lag between the attitudes or the values. It's called cultural lag. I'm sure this concept would also be true when we receive our socialist victory. We'll lay the foundation or the structure to change the attitudes, but until that time, we'll have to use certain precautions in order to protect ourselves from racism. And some of these ways we'll work is to... as for some autonomy in our community, complete control, matter of fact, of our local community, the institutions therein. We would like to operate our institutions as collectives or co-ops, if you will, owned by the whole community and supported by the national enterprises that will be centralized, but a public, excuse me. that will be a public institution. For instance, General Motors, Standard Oil, and the big monopolies, the 76 companies that control the American economy. According to the Johnson's report on civil disorders, there's 76 monopolies or oligarchies that control the country. We would demand that on every level, that people of color be represented. But the various communities will place these administrators in just as now elections are held to place mayors in and so forth. The wealth, there will be no profit. any longer. It would only be a surplus, and this surplus from these national enterprises will be distributed in some sort of equal way to the many ethnic minority communities. All of the communities will receive a proportion of the wealth. So we call this proportional representation in a socialist framework. If there happens to be any whites living in the black community or vice versa or any Mexicans or Indians or any ethnic group member who would be a minority living in any of the other ethnic communities, then he will have a democratic participation in these institutions. In other words, that we will make sure that a foundation will be laid to work towards a society that will be sensually human, a culture that will be sensually human, and a revolutionary culture, and that is a culture that is dynamic and that is in constant change and with the well-being of man and mind.

Speaker 1: Well, when you speak of revolution, which means a number of things besides guns, I notice that that does not preclude in your mind things that might be termed reformist in the sense, for example, of the community police control bill. You are in favor of people working for that type of reform measure.

Huey P. Newton: Yes, I believe that reform must be integrated with revolution. Reforms are all right. Reforms are good as long as they don't put up an obstacle to your final revolutionary goal. Many times reforms aid the revolutionary vanguard in mobilizing people against the oppressor. And in Berkeley now, that the Black Panther Party with members of the Peace and Freedom Party have worked to have the police decentralized. We are on the ballot now. I believe it took some of what, in the range of 15,000 signatures to get on the ballot. and we made that with ease, and I will ask the community to support this. I would like to ask all progressive people to support the decentralization of the police in Berkeley. The police will be decentralized into four police departments, one for students, one for blacks, and one for white. The local community would erect a board to control the police behavior and to examine complaints from the community about the police. This way the police will lose that character of being like a foreign army that's occupying territory. who don't live in the territory, but they only are there to ensure the interest of the wealthy or the property people in the area. We feel that that this is a step in the right direction it certainly is a necessary step but it's not sufficient and we realize it for what it is as a step in the right direction because the final victory will come when we're able to decentralize the wealth of us such institutions as bank of america and General Motors, and then make that wealth serve the interests of the people and not serve the interests of the profit monger. This will be the final victory of the people, but we must fight each battle at a time. And while the police are only the agents and the lackeys of the bourgeoisie and the big owners, we realize that in order for us to fight these big owners, we must fight the ordinary local police, which is the local foot soldier. Just as the Vietnamese, in order to fight American imperialism, must fight the ordinary soldier who's only a lackey for the bourgeoisie and the ruling circle here in America. And also, That's how students end up fighting certain teachers who support the reactionary designs, the reactionary regents, and the governor, the running dog Governor Reagan. In order to down Reagan, much of the time we have to have conflict with their ordinary protectors, whether they're teachers, local police, or the military. We have to deal with that. But we know the final victory and the real meaningful victory will be to decentralize the wealth of the rich oppressors.

Speaker 1: In other words, what you are saying is that you feel that reformism and revolution

Huey P. Newton: can and should go hand in hand in in in this society yes as long as or any other society as long as uh your reform does not uh uh is not obstacle does not put an obstacle in the way of your final goal there are many reforms i could think of if handled uh in the wrong way uh with uh would make it impossible or very difficult for you to achieve your revolutionary goal. We must make very sure that our reforms are well thought out and we explain to the people on the way the significance and also the dangers of accepting certain compromises from the oppressor. As long as we don't try to drop a plan on the people's head and as long as we take their interests in consideration and give them time, even though much of the time they don't claim to be Theoreticians or politicians or scholars, they don't understand. And we have to take a take much. Sometimes we have to take much time. Some revolutionaries think too much time to explain to the people. But we've the Black Panther Party has found. That after taking this time, it pays off because we move even faster than we would have if we had attempted to just conclude, make conclusions for the people and go ahead without their support and without their help.

Speaker 1: That brings me to another question. How, Huey, do you visualize the development of the Black Panther Party? There's been a good deal of discussion as to whether or not this was a mass party or whether it was simply going to be an elitist leadership cadre focusing on education and so on, but not having a mass membership.

Huey P. Newton: Well, I don't think those terms will fit squarely into either of the terms that you've just given, because our party is a vanguard party, but its strength is based upon the mass support. We work directly with the people in many programs. We're starting a shoe program where we make shoes. When I was in prison, I found that many inmates became very expert and many convicts became very expert in making shoes and boots. And these shoes are used to shoe the prison population and also they're sold to other government agencies. Of course, the prisoners only get two cents an hour for this. But the point I'm attempting to make is that the community, many of the people in the community here in the north and the south, the children go without shoes in the south and Beaufort County. There's a tremendous problem of parasites. The people, as soon as they're cleaned up, the parasites are driven out of their stomachs or they're cured. They pick up parasites again because they don't have shoes and they walk on the ground and pick them up. So we plan to buy, with the help of the people, to lease or buy an old shoe factory and put ex-convicts into these shoe factories. And the convicts will teach the people in the community how to make the shoes. And a shoe, a work shoe, can be made for about a dollar and a half or two dollars. and we plan to not only repair but to make shoes and shoe the children and the adults in the community and the South. So the party is a vanguard party so therefore we don't expect millions of people to be in membership but it's not a club or anything like that and really we have millions of people in because everyone We're working for the people's interest, and everyone who sympathizes and supports and does anything, we view him as a member. And he's certainly a member of the oppressed class, and therefore necessarily he's the backbone of the revolution. I think that this is almost a classical thing. If we observe other revolutions in other countries, that in every case that most of the people in the country were not a member in the sense of holding office in the revolutionary band. But the revolutionary band was so dependent on the people until they would say that they could not be tracked by the regular army because when they were with the people, they were like a fish in the sea. And we must be like that. We must, the community must support us to the point that when we're being pursued, they will give us aid without asking too many questions because much of the time there's no time for such questions. I would like to back up a little and say something else about Marin. I named the three brothers who were killed. There's a fourth brother, a comrade, a revolutionary who was in the hospital. by the name of McGee, Rochelle McGee, and that we have him in mind and that I'm asking the people to support in every way. We also want to make a charge that the revolutionary people are never interested in murder, that it's only the oppressor who's interested in murder. And this was demonstrated in Marin because the revolutionaries did not fire the first shot. They were interested in getting out of the prison. The statement was made by one of the comrades that I've been in prison so many years, too many years, uh... remove these chains uh... i must be set free so help me god and he addressed the jury and said this and uh... it was really uh... an explanation to the jury on uh... why he had to take certain actions and this is uh... incumbent this is uh... a revolutionaries obligation to always explain explain his action uh... to the people and uh... so that they will know and uh... that they were interested in taking hostages, and they would have released the hostages. They wanted freedom. But the police have stated, Matthews, the prison guard, who stated that he fired the first shot. There's some contradiction because the district attorney said, Thomas has said that he fired the first shot, but no one, everyone is aware that the revolutionaries did not fire the first shot. William Christmas or McLean did not fire the first shot. So that shows that the police, the fascist police are responsible for the judge's death and the fascist police are responsible for showing a disregard for everyone in that courtroom, including the jury. And I hope that the people see that for what it really is. It shows that the oppressor and the fascist police are more interested in apprehending some revolutionaries, more interested in that than preserving human life. And we charge them with that. We charge them with being insensitive to the people. And that is why that the Vanguard Party with the help of the people, will now intervene in that struggle and intensify our struggle and go on to victory.

Speaker 1: What do you see as the developing relationship between the black radical movement and the white and third world movement?

Huey P. Newton: Before I answer that, I would like to say one other thing about Marin, because I'm very disturbed about what happened in Marin in more than one way. I recognize not disturbed. It's more of a feeling that it's hard to express. I recognize what happened in Marin is purely a revolutionary action. I think that that the standard has been set higher, that the struggle has been put on a higher level now, and that all revolutionaries must recognize that. And that one other charge that I would like to make against the corrupt officials here, and that is that they haven't shown, they claim to be so interested in people, democracy, and so forth, and human life. And they haven't shown the respect, not nearly as much respect, as the corrupt governments of Latin America, of Uruguay, of... of Brazil. These are fascist governments and they have shown more respect for human life than this so-called democracy. When the revolutionaries in those countries took hostages and ordered the government to release certain political prisoners and prisoners of war, then they did that They did release them on a number of occasions in order to preserve life. But this country refuses to do that. So I would like for the people to keep that in mind and take some very necessary steps.

Speaker 1: Right. I would like to return to the question about the relationship between the black movement and the white movement in this country and the Chicano, the Third World movement in general, and how you visualize the proper and developing relationships among those groups.

Huey P. Newton: I think the Black Panther Party takes a position that we must accept the reality in this country, and that is this country is a pluralistic country, ethnically speaking and culturally speaking. and that first that we must recognize that as a fact, that there are many cultures here representing many national minorities, and that taking this under consideration, we will see that each ethnic minority has particular problems that has to be solved in a rather unique way. So this is why we say that in order to lay the foundation or get a base to solve these problems, first we have to transform society and wipe out the small ruling circle that's not interested in any of the people, only their interest in their profit. So after this transformation, which will necessarily be a socialist society, we would like... all of the ethnic minorities to be represented. Before the victory, we say that we must have many coalitions with all of groups such as the Third World Liberation Front that is now supporting the Sikhs in San Francisco, Siete de la Raza, and who are on trial now on trumped-up charges of killing a police officer. And we, the Black Panther Party, also supports them. We have attempted to show our friendship and our concern by supporting all people, no matter what their color or ethnic background, who are fighting against this common enemy, because in the end that we realize that. that culture is a thing that should enhance and make man feel free and also a thing that would give him the power to create and to produce in a creative way. And based upon these two criteria that that we would like to see eventually, essentially, a human culture. And then the ideas of proportional representation, even local boundaries, or after, matter of fact, after this imperialistic country's regime has ended, we could even think in terms of of the withering way of statehood period, that there won't be any need for other countries to be nations because they won't be threatened by this country. And there will just be people joined together in friendship and harmony. And this is the kind of society we're working for, where man will no longer be exploited by man, and love will exist among all of the people. Would you say then that it would be impossible to be a true socialist and be a racist? I think it's absurd to say that you're a socialist and you're also a racist because the socialist is interested in man and man is a homo sapien or of the same species and that once we start making it a division on race then that lets the to tie it in, to make divisions on many other class breakdowns. So... So we want to see an end of the class system and all of the distinctions that would make one group privileged over another. That doesn't necessarily mean that we want an end to ethnic groups. We think there's a matter of beauty in the many ethnic cultures rather like a bouquet. And I think if it's viewed this way, that the world will be a much happier place and a more interesting place. And it would be a coming together and a unity of man. And with that, as the Minister of Information, Eldridge Cleaver, said, we would have the essential miscegenation. And when our Minister of Information said this, he wasn't speaking... entirely of race miscegenation, but he was speaking of that complex whole where man finally reaches a unity with himself and with every other living thing in the universe. And this would be the mingling and the transformation everything from the prisoner that he is within himself from the division and the loneliness into a whole person and to what man can really be and this is why that we hate the oppressor so much because he seems to to when he strikes us he strikes down the best that humanity humanity produces when when The brothers were killed and Marin, humanity was struck a blow because these were true revolutionaries interested in the people's struggle, but yet they were taken away from us. And the young Jonathan Jackson, I viewed him as a brother that should have been and probably would have been my successor. but he was taken away from us, and we're very unhappy about that. But the people will produce more leaders, and they will be stronger because they will inherit the legacy of Jonathan Jackson, the revolutionary fervor of William Christmas, and the courage of McLean. with these combinations that we find new direction and we find new strength in the future.

Speaker 1: Huey, there's another subject that I would like to have your comments on. It seems to me that both among the minority groups and the white group, there's a sort of division among the younger people between what I believe could be called the dropouts, the dope culture, the just get out of it entirely, and the people who are politically conscious. What is your view of how you intend to deal with the other side of the youth culture? I mean, I know that many of the younger people are actively involved in the political scene, involved in the ideas of the changes which are going on all around us. On the other hand, you do have large numbers of all races of the younger people who have simply opted out.

Huey P. Newton: Yes, I think that many of the young people now who have, quote, dropped out are going through a transitional period. Most of them are upper middle class whites. A few blacks, but mostly upper middle class whites, students, and so forth. These people are offsprings of the bourgeoisie, their fathers, their families, or members of that class they were fighting against. I think that it's a fair statement to say that these so-called dropouts have done a necessary thing as a first step because they are what I call traitors to the bourgeoisie. They have left their jobs. the foal of that corrupt ruling circle. They repudiated the goals of that circle. And now they're attempting groping for a place. They're outside of the people's movement. But at the same time, they're in a twilight zone because they're also outside of the ruling circle. We find that the movement in general finds a fertile field in recruiting from this area because after they drop out, then they come back in. But this time they come in with new direction. They come in clean because they've denounced everything that their fathers have supported and supported everything that he's denounced. So it's sort of a it's a cleansing process. I think that, speaking again of the working together, in the near future, not in the near future, at this time, many of the left groups are joining into a larger movement. Vanguard Party that's known as the New World Liberation Front. And the Black Panther Party has joined this liberation group as a caucus inside of the liberation group. And that many other The Third World Liberation groups are also joining in, and the white leftists are joining in. So now we're coming up with a synthesis of all the revolutionary groups. It's going to be well into a very sharp cutting instrument in order to advance the people's cause.

Speaker 1: There are a couple of other minority situations or at least cleavages on which I would like your comments. There are many groups of women today who are all categorized as women's liberation. And yet again, they represent a variety of groups, only some of whom are politically conscious. And there are other groups like the homosexual groups. I would like your thinking on their relationship to what you're talking about?

Huey P. Newton: They definitely have a place in the revolutionary movement, the Women's Liberation Front. The Women's Liberation Front, some of the groups are politically conscious. Those groups of women who are politically conscious We would like to unite with them, and we would like to also have unity with the homosexual groups who are also politically conscious. We've had meetings with the homosexual representatives of the homosexual group and also the Women's Liberation Front. Now, the homosexual group have been oppressed so much and so badly until it was hard to convince them that the Black Panther Party is relating to them. But we see that... homosexuals are human beings and they're oppressed because of the bourgeois mentality and the bourgeois treachery that exists in this country that tries to legislate sexual activity. Most of the laws are laws not to promote freedom, which is, I believe, that one of the most essential things that man universally strives after, whether it's internal freedom or external freedom. In other words, freedom from compulsions and obsessions. Man is not happy when he feels forced. These are the internal things. When he's obsessed and feels compelled, whether it's through religious reasons or... backwards values reasons that even if he carries those values that he's unhappy and of course that when we start legislating from the outside there's force on the outside also and this is on the laws on the law book saying that adult people can't have any kind of sexual relationship they want to I don't think that the homosexuals should be harassed and badgered and brutalized because of their desire to have a sexual relationship that's not popular at this time. So we plan in the future to to make sure that we have solidarity with all oppressed people.

Speaker 1: I'd like you to tell us something about the constitutional conference which you're planning, and also I think you have some plans which involve the United Nations and Eldridge.

Huey P. Newton: Yes, first I'll speak of our Minister of Information, Eldridge Cleaver. who's in exile now and I've seen many times people, the news media said that he's in self-exile. The government has said that he's in self-exile. But I disagree with that, that he was forced to leave the country because the alternative was between death or in prison because the foundation of the plot was already laid, or going, working in Algiers and communicating with us and contributing to the movement. He's very much in touch. We talk to him just about every other day. I'm going to the U.N. to see about his return, that we will go to the United Nations and ask the United Nations to hear his case and to have a trial there to see exactly if the country, if this country has a right to try, excuse me, We don't feel that they have a right to try Eldridge Cleaver, and surely they don't have a right to put him back in jail without a trial at all. You must remember that Eldridge Cleaver left this country not because he was going to stand trial. He left this country because he was going to be put into prison without benefit of a trial. because of the pressure of the adult authority under the leadership of Ronald Reagan, who didn't like our minister of information very well. And Ronald Reagan didn't like our minister of information very well because Eldridge Cleaver exposed him to the people and showed the people what Ronald Reagan really was, and Ronald Reagan couldn't deal with that. He couldn't deal with it at all, so he plotted to have our Minister of Information put in a prison without a trial. So we're definitely going to do that.

Speaker 1: Was there some idea of a plebiscite under the United Nations? Yes. Or has that been changed?

Huey P. Newton: No. We still feel that... blacks should be able to decide our destiny. We've been oppressed so long until we think that it's only our right for the UN to create a plebiscite. to supervise a vote that will only be participated, blacks will only participate in. And this will ask blacks exactly what we want to do and whether they want to to remain a part of this country and so forth. As far as the party is concerned, that if blacks decide that they don't want to even be a part of this country, this is our right. But this doesn't mean that we're abandoning the long-term goal. And the long-term goal is to create a world where nations don't exist at all anyway. So keeping these things in mind, that we still feel that we shouldn't thrust any plan upon the people, upon the people's head, without consulting them. So we're always in the community, consulting the people, and that's where we will continue to be.

Speaker 1: What about the Constitutional Convention?

Huey P. Newton: Yes, the Constitutional Convention that we're planning will take place in Washington. The purpose of this convention is to plot a new course for this country. We think that the old Constitution has not guaranteed and has not given the freedom to all of the people here in America. So we're asking all people to come to this convention in order to plot a new course, to write a new constitution, and also to serve notice upon the corrupt officials and evil gentry that we will no longer tolerate the way they are exploiting the people and treating their people. We notice that... that something definitely has to be wrong with the Constitution when the fact is that black people are struggling to gain rights that white people gained in 1776 when they fought a war of national liberation, a war of independence from Great Britain, from England. And at that time, White people felt that they didn't want to be taxed without being represented, or taxation without representation. They could no longer tolerate. They wanted self-determination. So they fought one of the greatest countries in the world and defeated it. But we must realize that that war was not a revolutionary war. It was a national war of liberation, but the capitalistic tendencies, the capitalistic characteristics of this country, of America, the United States then, remain. the property class benefited by the war more than anyone else, by the National War of Liberation. At that time, we blacks were slaves. We were slaves before the National War of Liberation of the United States, and we were slaves after that, until 1865, matter of fact. Um, So we're still, the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Panther Party views the Civil Rights Movement as simply a continuation of the National War of Liberation that whites won in 1776. But as I said before, this was a bourgeois war, just as the Civil Rights Movement has always been led by the bourgeoisie. And even though it is not only a war right is necessary for us to gain those civil rights, we realize that those, by gaining those rights, will not free us now. It will not even give us the amount of freedom that whites got in 1776, simply because the dialectics have changed, the social forces have changed, so therefore getting, it will take a new, it will take new rights, it will take new things to guarantee our freedom. For instance, in 1776, What existed in this country was what we call democratic capitalism. The economy of the country was immature. one small landowner could compete against the other. There was much land unoccupied. There were many things that were not owned. And you didn't have the industrialization and the technological development that exists today. So many people were relatively free to engage in free enterprise or free competition. After even though blacks were never able to even engage in this. If we had been able to engage in that, if we had our rights, then the character of America today would be a proportional representation among the oppressed people. Now there's a disproportional representation of blacks and people of color in the oppressed classes. And this is because of the fact of racism. But if the history had been different, if we had gotten a 40-acre and the mule, the status Stevens thought was so important, and which I think was important, you would have not the kind of racial characteristic going along with also a class... oppression. In other words, in America we're not only oppressed as a class, as a poor class of people, we're oppressed as a caste, and that's because of our racial heritage. So this makes the oppression general even among the the small bourgeoisie that exists so uh but because we didn't get the 40 acres and the two mules we uh remain like a colonized people you see and even though it's not classical colonialism because in classical colonialism uh the people the colonized people are the majority and the oppressor is the minority in a foreign country america brought her colony home And we're that colony. Now, how do we straighten all of this out? That I say that at one time that capitalism was even somewhat progressive when it was at the democratic stage. As capitalism matured, it went from democratic capitalism to monopolistic capitalism. And this meant that a few landowners after working black slaves, after exploiting black slaves, and the land ended up with most of the bounty. And this is the people that President Johnson spoke of in his report on civil disorder. These are the people that composed the 76 companies, Rockefeller, Ford, and so forth. Because everything is owned now, the concept of black capitalism makes very little sense because it would say it will encourage blacks to invest in a defunct economy. It's defunct in this country in the respect that there's no room for further national development. The ruling circle is not even investing their profits into this country any longer. And this is why they've moved from nationhood to imperialism or empire, imperialism, because they invest their profits in foreign countries. And they make factories there. They pay very low salaries to the people. They deplete the country, the foreign country, the developing country. of his riches and bring them back home to support the over-expanded and depleted lands that are now America. So we say that black capitalism doesn't make any sense, and the only way that we can share in the wealth that we produce, because the workers produce our wealth, is to have a proportional representation in the socialist framework, that is to expropriate and to nationalize these private industries and administer them in a public fashion so that each man will get a part of what used to be profit. It would only be a surplus that would be turned into consumer goods and distributed in some equal way, and also it would strengthen out your local co-op. because your local co-ops will be coordinated with your national industry, which will be public. But this is so that we don't get that top-heavy kind of government, that we will have a people's government and a democracy.

Speaker 1: I notice in everything that you have said that it appears to me that your concept of socialism is not a doctrinaire one. The charge that you are all communists or that you are all malice, it seems to me that what you say adds up to the fact that you're approaching the idea of socialism from a pragmatic standpoint in the view of this situation racially, economically, and in its world position. Would that be correct, and could you expand on it?

Huey P. Newton: Yes, but not only that. I think that it's not so much as being doctrinaire. We're not doctrinaire because we're more interested in really dealing with the social forces than adhering to some so-called Marxist-Leninist principle, which might not be Marxist-Leninist after all, because Marx himself said the one thing that I'm not, I'm not a Marxist. And what he meant... that he wasn't going to follow any doctrinaire thing. He was going to use the science of materialism in a creative fashion, and that makes the true Marxist-Leninist, you see. But what is really happening is that we've carried Marxist-Leninism to a higher level We say that the party, the Black Panther Party, is the greatest Marxist-Leninist of all times, and we're not bragging when we say that, but we realize that history has bestowed upon us an obligation, and that is to take the science and take the philosophy of Marx to its final goal. and that is to create a world that has an absence of statehood. And this is why in the first of my speech or my talk with you, I emphasized the fact that we're no longer revolutionary nationalists, that we don't believe in what's commonly called nationhood for America, you see. We believe that... that America now must subscribe to strict internationalism because while these other revolutionary countries and who are Marxist-Leninists are revolutionary nationalists in the respect that they are fighting for autonomy and they're fighting for independence and nationhood. We support that because they have to do that in order to defend themselves against the international bourgeoisie, the international aggressor. We realize that if America didn't support every fascist and bourgeois government in the world, that government couldn't exist and the people would win the revolution immediately. So what I'm saying is that while it might sound in contradiction, it's only paradoxical that we, when I say that blacks, we should ask the black people exactly what direction we want to go. We also are going to explain some things to them, and that is that whatever way we go, that white America can no longer remain a nation. And taking this into consideration, I'm saying that once America stops relating to this nationalism, It won't be necessary for any other country in the world to relate to nationalism. So developing these kind of concepts, we think that we've taken Marxist-Leninism to even a higher level than it's ever been in history, because history has not yet created the communist world. It's only created the socialist world that is also based upon statehood. So the next stage would be the communist world where statehood no longer exists. And we will take the banner of the people's struggle, the black and the red banner, to the final victory.

Speaker 1: Is there anything else you would like to say to us, Huey?

Huey P. Newton: I would like to say power to the people because without the people there will be no victory and the people are responsible for historical developments and they're responsible for the course that history takes and no matter what kind of weapon the oppressor has that we know that one new weapon doesn't win the war. But the people always win. And the people are the real heroes. And without this knowledge, we don't have even the rudimentary knowledge. Thank you very much.