Full Audio! Struggle Session 6 Live w/Nerdeen Kiswani, Sina Rahmani, Henry Hakamaki & Mehmet Ali Arslan

Adnan Hussain: Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim. Salaam, hello, peace to you all. I'm Adnan Hussain, historian of the medieval Mediterranean and Islamicate world history, co-host of Guerrilla History Podcast. I should say that it's very relevant today, especially on The Struggle Session. Welcome to the program. This is the sixth edition of The Struggle Session, a monthly live stream panel discussion show designed not only to analyze the world, but with the aim of changing it. And as I like to say, we might not make you feel better. We may even make you feel worse. But what we want you to do is be active in the struggle. And we're here to struggle and contest some serious issues and developments that have been taking place. So much has happened since the last struggle session, struggle session five last month. So many things to discuss and talk about. To talk about it all, we have an absolutely amazing panel of guests, but before I introduce them, I just want to remind you to like the stream on YouTube in whichever format you're watching, whether portrait or landscape. You should know that if it's appearing funny on your screen, there is another... Stream that might work better on your screen so just look go to at Adnan Hussein show and find the other stream and join over there if you're watching on YouTube and If you could also share this stream in addition to liking it, that would be really helpful You can also share it on Twitter if you're watching you can retweet it if you're watching on X and as we're streaming there at Adnan A. Hussain. And of course, if you can support, you could be a patron, patreon.com slash Adnan Hussain, or make a one-time contribution via buymeacoffee.com slash Adnan Hussain. Producer Sina is here today, and I've been very neglectful about mentioning that, and he would have chastised me, so I had to say it. But, you know, we'll have a chance at the end of the program to boost appeals for organizations and individuals that we want to support and highlight. And I always say, I'd rather you give to Gaza. Don't give to me. Give to Gaza. And I usually say, please support the Samir Project. But we'll have a chance to talk a little bit more about that. the causes, organizations, and individuals we want you to support if you can. But joining me today is Nardin Kaswani, who's a New York-based activist, co-founder, and chair of Within Our Lifetime. Inshallah, I love that name, and I always say when I see it, Inshallah. Nardin, it's great to have you on.

Nardin Kaswani: Thank you so much, inshallah. We really need to start saying not the end of everything. It's good to be here amongst the rest of the panelists.

Adnan Hussain: Yes, yes, indeed. And among your colleagues on the panel, also Mehmet Ali Arslan, a musician, activist, and co-host of, I believe it's translated meaning is Peacemongers podcast in Swedish and English, but I'm hesitant to try and pronounce it. Mehmet Ali, why don't you, well, firstly, welcome. Salaam. And why don't you tell us the name of the podcast?

Mehmet Ali Arslan: Thank you. The name of the podcast is Fredshetsana. As you say, it's Peacemongers. I'm super honored to be here. I have a combination of imposter syndrome and starstruckness. So I hope it's going to go well.

Adnan Hussain: It's going to be great. I've been on your program and you've been on mine before. And it's great to have you here for this roundtable panel discussion. And then also Henry Hakamaki. who is an Iskra Books editor, translator of radical works that I really recommend you check out, and also co-host of Guerrilla History Podcast, Henry. Great to see you. Nice to see you as well, Adnan.

Henry Hakamaki: You know, we see each other pretty frequently with Guerrilla History, but it's always a pleasure to see you in other venues as well.

Adnan Hussain: Absolutely. Well, welcome. I'm really looking forward to your contributions along with everybody else on the panel. And last, but definitely not least, Sina Rahmani, famous for his rants, producer extraordinaire, usually behind the camera for many of us, is in front of the camera. He's an impresario of a growing gaggle of anti-imperialist podcasts. and of course, host of East as a Podcast. Sina, it's great to have you on.

Sina Rahmani: Hi, everyone. Hi, hi, hi. I hope my internet doesn't crap out.

Adnan Hussain: Well, we always have those issues, but we will do what we can. You know, there's so much, as I said, to talk about, I want to get straight into it. But I do want to say that we seem to be at a moment where there's an awful lot of confusion, division, distraction going on in what we would think of as putatively the left. And that is of concern to us. I think we've seen, for example, some recent, many recent developments, and there's been a lot of division about how to understand them and analyze them. and what position to take and so forth. So, you know, of course, first I want to appeal to the standard that I have, which is if it's not going to help the struggle, is it really worth, you know, focusing on it? We do need to clarify contradictions. We need to educate. but we need to do it in a way that doesn't just contribute to fracturing division and weakening already, you know, a left formation that is, you know, has, has not achieved its goal. So like we can't really afford, you know, to waste a lot of time. So my hope in the discussion now, what I do want to enter in upon some of these controversies and, and to try and clarify and analyze these positions, but we wanna do it in such a way to bring people together and focus on continuing our action and being more effective rather than less. So one thing that I wanted to get thoughts on, and especially since we have you, Nardin, you're New York City based, and of course there's been a lot of electoral political news in New York, with Mahmoud Mamdani's victory in the mayoral election and reactions and responses to that and concerns about how many of the things that he said, which were clearly important and significant in his electoral victory, you know, seem to have been modified or you know moderated or abandoned even and there's a number of troubling kinds of decisions already being taken and there's a lot of reaction to it and i just wanted to get your thoughts um on how you're looking at the prospects ahead and what kinds of critiques you've been engaged with. You can start anywhere where you think it's important, whatever you think is the most important point in your analysis about Mamdani's victory and what decisions he's been taking so far ahead of his administration in the new year.

Nardin Kaswani: yeah thank you for creating this space um to have this discussion it's been especially frustrating on social media these days with the types of attacks that i'm getting for simple critique and i know none of us are identity reductionists um over here and i'm not saying like me being a new yorker gives me a special status or privilege to discuss this but you know ostensibly i'm supposed to be one of the people who has the most to gain from this and i should be such a grateful palestinian that you know he recognizes um the obvious by you know saying that there's a genocide which is you know to me at this point it's like the same thing as saying hitler is bad um you know you don't really get a cookie um you know for that i don't know what you know people want us um to say. But yeah, I mean, like as a lifelong New Yorker, I've lived here since I was one years old. I lived here since 1996. I've never lived anywhere else in my life as a brand new mom. You know, all these like promises of free childcare and all these things, free buses, you know, that's something that should benefit me more than some of, you know, his biggest defenders who are talking from halfway across the world, different states, DSA members all over the country, people in Canada. And, you know, it's like they just want us to shut up about criticisms when in reality, you know, wouldn't it be helping him for him to say that he has this large base, this large community that's pressuring him to take better stances? not only on Palestine, but also on the things he ran that should benefit working class New Yorkers. Who does it benefit for us to silence criticisms of him, especially when he is already getting all of that from the Zionist side from Zionists who are asking him to condemn Palestine protests, which he's already waded into the water of doing by not only condemning the phrase globalized intifada on his campaign trail or discouraging it, I should say, is a precise word he used. So people don't freak out about little inaccuracies like that. But he also did it to a Palestinian community organization that was protesting the Parky Synagogue, I believe it's called, for their settler fair recruitment event. Yes, he recognized that that event broke international law by literally funding and helping settlers take over Palestinian land, which, as we've seen, is leading to the deaths and attacks and killing of Palestinians in the West Bank. um not just in gaza as well um and uh the annexation of my village you know i'm personally affected by this i'm from a village in palestine called betixa it was originally part of jerusalem now it's in the west bank you know every couple of years they annex more and more of our land and officially just last month they actually created an entirely new system to where You know, the people living there, they don't have Jerusalem ID, but they also aren't, you know, the land is not considered part of the West Bank anymore, like essentially part of Jerusalem. You need to have a permit to go in. I already had trouble going to Palestine before. Now, if I visit, I need a permit to go visit my own land there. And I still have family there. My grandfather actually recently built a mosque there that I probably... might not ever be able to visit. So, you know, this language that he's condemning at Palestine protests around the settler, you know, recruitment fair is something that directly affects me. And yet, you know, there's really been this cult of personality that's developed around him that prevents anyone from saying anything. When, you know, you would think that all these so-called leftists would know better. I mean, the whole point of a figure like Imam Dhani And why he's emerging at this time is precisely because empire is in crisis, because capitalism and imperialism are adaptive. They absorb dissent. They repackage critique and they produce intellectuals who function as safety valves. Right. All of this anger that people had against the Democratic Party, which, you know, I've never seen people in our community, the Muslim, Palestinian, Arab community in New York. be so angry at the Democratic Party, the police forces, the people in this city who've made life hell for not only Palestinians back home, but people here. And now that's all being rehabilitated. you know, his once radical, you know, critiques of colonialism is now being used to rehabilitate not only the Democratic Party, but even the Republican Party, as we've seen, you know, with him being all chummy with Donald Trump, you know, that's subjective. But, you know, when you're taking smiling photos with the president who, I mean, if they really believed he was a fascist, I don't know what excuse they have for that. I don't think he's uniquely a fascist. I mean, I think all of these politicians are fascists, including many of the Democrats that call him that. But none of this is an accident. It's how the system preserves itself. It intellectualizes opposition, institutionalizes, and it redirects it back to the very structures that it claims to challenge. So he's effectively providing ideological cover at a moment when the empire is fracturing. Media people, liberals are calling Hakeem Jeffries, Apex Shakur, and he's saying publicly with no, Mamdani is saying publicly with no caveats, you know, that he endorses him. And of course, this is all against the backdrop of Gaza still under constant bombardment, Dozens of Palestinians are still being killed daily, whether it's through direct fire, bombs, through settler attacks, through being killed because they're not able to access medical care because Gaza is still under siege and blockade. And, you know, both parties are smiling together in the White House. And instead of naming that bipartisan unity around repression, much of the left has turned Trump and Mamdani into entertainment figures, a spectacle rather than a serious fascist threat. So the irony is that while empire imperialism produces fascism abroad and at home, uh liberal intellectuals like mamdani can throw us a bone can throw us a crumb every once in a while by saying free palestine by calling it a genocide as if that's oh my god he called it a genocide in the oval office like behind the desk of the president as if that's like taking huge strides um in the end what it does is just makes people believe that reform is still possible uh but this is still a system that stability depends on genocide surveillance and imperial war and you know as soon as our community started to recognize that, started to organize against it, he's reeling it back in. And I think that's precisely his function.

Adnan Hussain: Excellent points. I mean, I don't know how much people want to pick up on which threads and, you know, further analysis. I would just say the, you know, one other way is I don't condemn him for some of the symbolic things. Okay, you know, I agree. It's kind of disgusting to me, but is my main critique going to be that he... you know, had a photo op in Trump's office. You know, what's really kind of disturbing is what he's not doing that he could really easily do that would be meaningfully significant or important. Why does he have to renew the, you know, police commissioner, Tish? Like, you know, normally they would have to be, you know, chosen. Their term ends, you know, when there's a new, you know, You know, it wouldn't have even been a political cost to just say, OK, thank you for your service. Now I'm going to put in somebody who reflects the values around policing that I think we need to go and for which I was elected. Right. He's got a movement behind him. Use the movement. I mean, this is the problem with this. So I think exactly as you're saying, Nadine, the celebrity movement. constructing celebrity cult of personality politicians rather than movement-based, those people who are elected should be accountable to and use their movement to achieve gains and build a different kind of coalition rather than depending on the old outmoded politics of the Democratic Party. He doesn't need them. They need him. And that's exactly what you're saying. So he's demonstrating and proving that he doesn't understand the genuine political position that he's in. He's just willing to be a tool of the recovery of imperialist politics rather than being the tip of the spear of a movement that's trying to change the whole situation. So I think you were spot on with many of those comments. And I'm wondering, does anybody else have any thoughts about how to think about, because sometimes it's also contextualized within electoralism versus non-electoralism. And I think that is also too simplistic a kind of framework that people miss. You may not have a lot of faith in electoral politics, but it doesn't mean there isn't a place for it. It's just they're not using that place the way it should be. So I'm wondering what other people think about this kind of New York City situation and also what the broader significance of it might be beyond the local New York City context.

Mehmet Ali Arslan: I can give it a go. Go ahead. Please. I mean, first of all, 100% everything you said, Nardi. Something that bugged me, I had to look it up, actually. Who invited whom? Did he invite himself to the White House for this performance? And he did, apparently, which is weird, to say the least. And as you pointed out, I think this happened with Bernie This happened with Obama as well. Like they had this energy behind them, people behind them. And then like a lot of emails, like lots of email lists with, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of people maybe. And they just burned it. I mean, I think that it becomes like a... almost classic thing now, like before the election, you pander to the left. After the election, you pander to the right where the power lies somehow, apparently. Something that I also noticed is that like, I am from originally from Turkey and I live in Sweden. So it's like, I saw in both in Turkey and in Sweden that it's like, This whole thing with Mamdani, I don't know if it was intended to be, but the effect is that it's become a global country insurgency. Everyone suddenly is very hopeful. I mean, I understand that we all need hope, especially when we're so desperate for it, thinking about the current situation. But out of that desperation, people cling on to something that isn't real. I mean, I think it's doing more harm. I'm with Steven Salaita here. I mean, it's doing more harm than good at this point, I think.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, well, I mean, the other point that Nardine raised, I think, as well, that I would want to highlight is, why is everyone so defensive about the politician being subject to some criticism for decisions that... he's making. I mean, that's what you do with politicians. You should try and bring them to your side. You put them under pressure. If you don't put them under pressure, the only pressure is coming from the side of the Zionists, from the side of the police, from the side of the corporate Wall Street bankers, from the side of the establishment politicians. So if you don't subject them You know, why is that seen as disloyal? That's exactly what the movement must do. And it doesn't mean that they will, you know, be able to fulfill, you know, within the context of what they're dealing with all of your, you know, hopes and aspirations. But why is it a crime to subject your left politician to accountability to the movement that brought them into office, right? So There's just so many components of it where I understand you have to work within the system, but that doesn't mean you capitulate to the system, and it doesn't mean that those who want to participate by putting politicians under pressure to pull them you know, to, you know, doing the, you know, kind of taking the positions and making the decisions that would be beneficial for all, right? Actually, it'll help everybody other than, you know, the racist, you know, Wall Street faction. Of course, they're powerful and they're wealthy, but, you know, if you get rid of racist, you know, you know, policing in the city, that's a benefit to everybody, right? If you, you know, kind of put them under pressure in this way, that actually is going to lead to better policies. So that's just something I don't understand why it's suddenly criminal to exercise the very same kind of political pressure in the system. It's not actually abandoning electoralism. It's saying the only way electoralism actually achieves anything is when it is accountable to social movements. That's when it can achieve things. Anybody else want to get in on this or have other responses?

Henry Hakamaki: I'll take a crack at saying something very briefly just because I have nothing particularly insightful to say with regard to American domestic politics since I haven't lived in the U.S. since 2017. What I will say is that one of the reasons why many people are getting defensive about Mamdani, and I'm not going to get into Mamdani's statements, I'm not going to get into Mamdani's platform and how he is, as we've been discussing, Nardin Adnan Ahmed, how he has backtracked and kind of changed some of the things that he was running on already, even though he hasn't come in to office yet. I'm going to put that aside. One of the reasons that people are particularly getting upset to my understanding is that for some reason, people are upholding him as some truly revolutionary figure. They see him as an actual revolutionary and a revolutionary that's going to be able to act in a revolutionary way within the confines of the Democratic Party. Now, There is a contradiction here. How can you be a revolutionary figure while operating within the Democratic Party? I always like to return to a quote that I like to bring up frequently by Julius Nere on American politics, which is that the United States is also a one-party state, but in typical American extravagance, they have two of them. Now, that is not to say that the Democratic and Republican parties are exactly the same, but it's essentially like two wings of the same bird. right they're not the same wing but they are connected to the same organism that organism within the context of the two parties within the united states is a capitalist imperialist system anybody who's operating within the confines of those two parties those two wings of the same bird is playing by the rules of capitalist imperialism even if they are on maybe the left side of that capitalist imperialist bird and so if you were looking for somebody to be a true revolutionary well one they wouldn't be a member of the democratic party two even if they were running as a member of the democratic party for electoral purposes to come in and be able to try to affect some revolutionary change the moment that they got elected they should leave the party and basically rule as an independent. This is something that might sound strange to a lot of people in the United States, but this is something that's very common in other parts of the world where politicians are associated with one party. But after getting elected, particularly to executive offices, they then govern as an independent. Now, that's not to say that they don't align themselves with a particular political party, but nominally, at least they are independent. If you were an actual revolutionary with some sort of office in the United States, you would not align yourself with the Democratic Party and be beholden to the structures and the machinations of that party. It is a capitalist imperialist party. There is an inherent contradiction there. And so essentially, that's all I want to say on this, because again, I don't have any particular insights onto Mamdani himself, other than people don't like having their idea of what a revolutionary is criticized as non-revolutionary. But there is this inherent contradiction here that he came into power in an imperialist party, and he's keeping his wagon hitched to this imperialist party. And sorry, one small other point on electoralism, and this is something that we've brought up on guerrilla history before many times, Adnan, which was Marx and Lenin's theory of electoralism. The idea of electoralism within a bourgeois democracy is that if you are a revolutionary who's participating in elections, the purpose of participating in elections is to One, to measure your forces, to see how many people are believing and supporting revolutionary ideals. Two, to get your platform out there. And three, to raise awareness of the issues that you are running on. Hitching your wagon to the Democratic Party is achieving none of these three things. You're not measuring revolutionary potential. You're measuring how many people are on the left side of an imperialist project. You're not getting a truly revolutionary platform out there because, again, you are hitching your wagon to a capitalist imperialist party. And three, you're not getting those ideas and recruiting people to revolutionary movements because you're a member of an imperialist party. So on that, I'm going to rest.

Adnan Hussain: No, that's great, Henry. And it reminds me, though, because Ann Lee, who is in the chat, wonderful contributor, listener, great friend to the show and point, I would want him to, you know, quote Lennon without acknowledging, you know, sort of subterranean. But it reminded me, actually, that I had seen people using... or quoting and referring to Lenin's treatise, Left-Wing Communism, to try and use a Leninist kind of argument against communism people who are severely criticizing Mamdani's recent, you know, statements, decisions, and so forth. And to me, that's absolutely hilarious, the way they're trying to recycle this kind of idea of Lenin's critique of some of the socialist parties in Western Europe who were so unrealistic about what the possibilities were, you know, for their organizing in that space. And I think... You know, that's just kind of intriguing to me that people can't seem to think of what the value of electoral politics might be. They're just either, you know, just forget it all. And it's a total waste versus those who think, oh, you have to play this game. And the way that they understand participating in it is constantly somehow making compromises, you know, in order to achieve certain kind of minor policy gains or goals rather than you know, acting in a more revolutionary sort of way. And I think you're right, Henry, is that we never should have expected that. That wasn't Mamdani's project. He never said he was going to do that. So why would you then, you know, judge him on that basis? I think, you know, you have to have a different kind of analysis for what he's doing. And I think Nardin kind of told us what that was, which was shoring up, you know, kind of an imperialist formation that is, you know, rapidly crumbling, you know, in other theaters around the world. Sina, did you want to come in on this or take us in a different direction?

Sina Rahmani: Uh, well, I mean, I think I will be gone. This has been half an hour. So my producer, the producer side of me wants us to move on. I will say this. Um, I will say this, that I, I think that like, we have to disabuse ourselves of the kind of, um, let's say, mythical overlay or romantic idealization of bourgeois political jockeying and the political machinery. I think the US is the most ruthless fascistic society on the planet. And New York City is the most important, let's say the financial hub, one of the most important cities, if not the most important city. as a sort of, you know, legal entity, sure. But like, it's more of an idea at this point because like New York is bigger than the actual city itself. But in the sense that this, that this man could ride what is a very real palpable disgust with the establishment, uh, you know, because of this genocide and all kinds of, all other kinds of reasons, but genocide being a big reason. So of course, Mamdani was very smart and shrewd. And I mean, these could be his views. So it's not that, you know, to sort of take up the anti, you know, like let's say pro-Palestine, whatever that means. But at the end of the day, I don't think, I don't think American politicians are allowed to be radicals. I think like they mark you if you don't behave, if you like don't do their work. I think like we're, and they'll, they'll either, and they have like all kinds of tools at their disposal to, to stop people from like undoing their like very complicated and like Jenga, like, you know, like economic and, you know, political power that they enjoy over these like millions of people that they don't represent, who probably, if you ask them would like, love to see a revolution. I mean, I lived in New York city for like, I was like four insane months. It is the craziest city that ever existed. It's like it's just it's you. You think like, how is this real? And I've lived in like a lot of cities and it's just like this mass teaming mass. But one thing you'll recognize is, oh, white flight, white suburban flight is very real. And this has consequences several generations in. uh so i don't really see mamdani's rise as anything as like a huge huge like uh you know like watershed moment we've been here before i mean i'm old enough to remember when they rolled out aoc i don't know if you remember this but it was like one sunny day on twitter and they like put this video out of her of this young dynamo i'm so embarrassed to admit this i'm maybe i'll edit this out of the final edition of this i can erase keeping it in we're keeping it no What do you mean we're keeping it in? I'm the producer. I'll erase it from history.

Adnan Hussain: Live is live, friend.

Sina Rahmani: Live is live. The only people who are going to know this are the people who are watching this. But I watched that video like five times and I totally fell for it. And I actually, I remember, I remember getting goosebumps. I need to play the booing sound. I'm going to play the booing sound. I should have had this queued up. I need to boo myself. Oh, here it is. Boo large, it's called. Here it comes. Yeah, that's what I deserve because it's like I fell for that shit, like hook, line and sinker. And it was I remember it. And like then, you know, like fast forward a few months later and she's taking those pictures like this whole performance art of bourgeois like politics. Like that's what it mostly is. It's mostly this kind of like overlay that convinces people that, oh, you have a say, I swear. Like you have a swear. You totally, totally have a say in all of this. We let you. Your voice is important to us. And like this mantra that they throw at us, I don't know. I guess I'm just like a... I am not an electoralist. I don't know how elections work here. I think I voted twice in my life. Once I was bullied into doing it by my mom, basically. I don't really believe in the act of voting because I think there will be eventually a revolution in our part of the world, but it won't be... It won't be at the ballot box. It will be some kind of collapse, economic, ecological, that will bring about a new kind of radicalism. I'm just afraid is that the tenor of American radicalism that I've encountered outside of the major cities, let's say, are really fascist. If America fell as is, it could get even worse. Like it could actually get even worse for places like, I don't know, for like large. So like this bigger conversation about the shaping character of the American state as it's in this like free fall is interesting. But I don't know, maybe we should, that's my own view on the Mamdani stuff and in general, the sort of general decline of the West.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah. Yeah. Great stuff. People are already happy to get at least a micro mini Sina rant. And I've promised them that there will be more than one today. So we'll come back. and look forward to that. But I do think you're right. We should move on.

Nardin Kaswani: I could just quickly just kind of wrap it up with a, you know, back to someone who's, you know, been here in New York City and organizing for Palestinian liberation since I was a teenager. I've been involved in community organizing, you know, including in the very community where Zahraan originally, you know, got interested in politics on the campaign trail for Father Khader al-Yateem, who was one of my father's good friends. He used to come over to our house, you know, for dinner parties and things like that. Like, he would text me for donations to the community, stuff to the church. So I'm all very involved in this. And Zahran also had previously reached out to my organization to help him organize a Palestine protest. AOC had even asked someone if she could speak at one of our protests that we organized in Queens. many years ago. And these are all opportunities that we didn't really see as beneficial opportunities. We declined her request to do that. There were many other electeds who asked to speak at our protest, and we declined them because we don't believe it's our job as people in the belly of the beast to be propping up these politicians. Our job is to outflank them on all of these issues, which suddenly people have an issue with when it comes to Palestine. And I've actually, now that Zohran has been elected during this campaign trail, he's worked overtime to distance himself from us more than he ever has before. So me criticizing him is ostensibly something that he's proud of, that he wants, because they take pictures of me and him at a rally together, and they send them out as mailers to different houses in New York City, being like, look at this terrorist anti-Semite supporter that Zohran is affiliated with. Don't vote him in. And, you know, he's he's leaning into distancing himself from us. But, you know, even during Eric Adams, prior to Eric Adams administration, when he was on the campaign trail, I met with him. You know, I don't take selfies with politicians. I don't glaze them. I don't make them feel like, you know, it's something special that I'm in their presence. I met with Bill de Blasio. in City Hall while he was in office. And my position in all of these campaigns and all of these administrations was to pressure them, was to criticize them. So I don't see why that should be different now with this person when we had the opportunity with someone else, with all these other politicians. And people say, oh, he's doing 5D chess. He knows how to play ball. You guys wouldn't know power. If it if it like, you know, whatever, if it was staring you in the face. Well, you know, I just like to remind people that also growing up, getting involved in Palestine organizing over 10 years ago, people said saying things like long live the intifada and calling for a one state solution were dead on arrival positions that you couldn't mention without being blacklisted. And now those are the majority positions of the Palestine organization. So, you know, not trying to pat myself on the back, but even during, you know, from Bernie to AOC, I never bought into any of these politicians. I was frustrated when people in our community were calling Bernie Amma, which means uncle, you know, or saying that like Palestinian organizations should be campaigning for them. Now those same people, you know, see them for what they are. They're calling them Zionists. But, you know, I just hope, I just don't know how many times we have to go through these charades for us to understand that, yes, you can participate in electoralism, whatever. I voted. I don't think it's the end of the world if it takes you 10 minutes to go vote. whatever, like that's fine. But at the end of the day, we should be building power in our communities. And a lot of people are replacing that by putting all their eggs in the electoral basket rather than carving out our own sustainable support networks and building up community organizations for when the proverbial shit hits the fan, which I think things have only gotten worse and they will continue to get worse under whatever administration, whether it was Mamdani's or not.

Adnan Hussain: Absolutely. I mean, that's the evidence right there. They came to you because they actually need the Palestine solidarity movement. It's not the other way around. I mean, and as somebody put in a comment before is that, you know, the Gaza issue blew apart the entire Democratic coalition and then Mamdani... you know, reconstructed that or is in the process of trying to reconstruct that coalition on new terms in which a Zionist police commissioner is OK, among other things. Right. So this is the this is the point they needed, you know, you more than you needed them. Right. So that's why they came to you. But, you know, this kind of does remind me a little bit of. Also, some issues that we should probably talk about when it comes to different positions people, you know, have been having. And when you said, Nardine, that, you know, how many times are we going to see the same, you know, what flashed in my mind is also how we're seeing a replay, a complete replay of the Oslo Peace Accords, you know, happening. And yet, for some reason, this coalition has managed to form itself in support of the UN Security Council vote on the kind of Trump plan and authorizing some kind of a peace force and so on. And this also has been something that's been pretty controversial. And perhaps we could talk a little bit about this sort of issue. And You know, it just reminds me of so much about also what happened with the Syria situation, how it just completely divided and distracted the Palestine solidarity movement into some kind of internecine kind of Twitter conflict while missing. you know uh, you know missing kind of what was happening in material, you know analysis material political analysis and also Recognizing that none of this would help actually the palestine solidarity movement if we spend all of our time Kind of focusing on arguments over that rather than what we could do to support uh, so What have you been thinking about this latest round of developments that have taken place on the question of Palestine in these international bodies and the way in which a rogues gallery of comprador elites, something I talked about with Bikram Gill on Office Hours just on Friday, leaders of the Arab and Muslim countries, the Arab League, the IOC, all of these heads of state, their governments that are ruling over peoples who are 100% behind the people of Palestine, but their leaders have joined together in supporting the Trump peace plan ever since the summer with the New York Declaration. You had Saudi since then at the UNGA, now with this UN security resolution. What's going on here? It just strikes me as it's like Oslo yet again, and people haven't observed that, that this is just, again, another technique for denying Palestinian liberation and freedom. But also, I think that it's not going to be successful because what it does is it, you know, underestimates the lessons of the last two years, which is that the people of Palestine will not be defeated. You know, you can do whatever you want, but sovereignty is actually what is happening on the ground. in the resistance they have not been able to do it for two years which is why they and trump himself even said it you know he said it sometime in like august or september i remember him saying something about his plan it's like well you know the israelis weren't able to do it so We're going to have this kind of ceasefire and try and do it. In other words, if they could do it, they would have done it. They haven't been able, so we need to try something different. And that something different is actually something that is the same. It's the Oslo style kind of peace process again. What is your reactions and analysis of what's been happening at that level and whether and how it makes a difference? We could decry it, but I actually don't think in many ways it's going to make a difference for on the ground resistance. The question is, where does it make a difference? Does it make a difference somehow in the global Palestine solidarity movement's ability to use some of the tools and techniques for leverage or for organizing or discursively? Does it raise the sort of bar? Does it distract? So these are, I think, really the key questions about how we should respond and react to it. Anybody with some thoughts on this latest?

Mehmet Ali Arslan: I can jump in if no one minds. I mean, I sort of want to push back on the idea that this is Oslo 2.0. I think it's way worse. I mean, this is insane. It's like, I mean, I understand that that's not what you mean, Adnan, but it's like this is giving the keys of Gaza to Trump. They created a board of peace and he's chairing it. saying it's me.

Adnan Hussain: It is technically worse. You're absolutely right. It's like going back as a historian, it's going back to the mandate period. Basically the kind of thing under the League of Nations. No longer is the UN and its charter and its kind of form of international law that was put in place to create a new world after World War II. We are back in the pre-World War II era. I mean, there always was the Palestine exception. I ask everybody to go read R.D. Imseis' book on the Palestine question in the UN. He's an international lawyer and a colleague of mine here at Queensland. He wrote a wonderful book. I interviewed him on the Mudge List and actually on Guerrilla History. The episode is available there. It was always, of course, subverted. But this is very direct, as you're saying, kind of like the mandate period, the League of Nations, where you can't actually, you know, have self-determination yet. You're not ready. And so we have to have these, you know, neo-colonial kind of authorized under some kind of international framework to manage you and your population, right? So it's a denial of any of the possibility of sovereignty and national liberation. So I take your point completely, but please go ahead with the real analysis. Sorry.

Mehmet Ali Arslan: No, stop. So, There are so many things to talk about this, but it's like international law, whatever that was, is completely dead. I mean, like UN Security Council, which is sort of the highest executive international body, just passed a... something completely against the UN Charter. It's gone. It's dead. There's no point in trying to appeal to it. There's no point in saying, according to international law, that shit is done. I don't see any point in going back to that anymore. And then this idea that the resistance in Gaza have... have endured for two years and they're still alive and kicking i mean yes that's true but at the same time how long do we expect them to be alive and kicking under these circumstances where i mean every power other than yemen has abandoned them i mean Okay, Iran did some stuff and Lebanon obviously sacrificed a lot. But they, I mean, at least Hezbollah can't. That's just how it is right now. And Iran, it's unknown what Iran is doing and what they will do, they can do. That's all up in the air. So it's Gaza, which is like super tiny. It's already divided into two and they keep encroaching. They keep moving the the bullshit yellow line while people are sleeping, suddenly, oh, they are on the other side. It's like, it's really insane stuff happening. And I don't, I think the onus is on us that we don't, like we have to revitalize the movement somehow to actually put real pressure on to actually help the resistance because they like telling, like repeating this idea that they haven't been beaten in two years and they won't be beaten again. I think they could be. I don't want to be pessimistic about this, but I don't think that just saying that sentence... We could be misleading us and we could be doing a disservice to the resistance itself. I mean, again, I'm not trying to argue with you, Adnan. Well, it's just... No, no.

Adnan Hussain: I also am allergic to some of these defiant kind of statements, you know, that like, you know, can overestimate because the cost is so high. You know, that's the thing. It's like... you know, the cost is utterly unbearable. And yet the resistance continues. I'm just speaking from a kind of material question is that who's going to go in and do this, right? I mean, are like these troops that are being promised from, you know, other global South countries going to go in and genuinely try and disarm the resistance? I can't see that happening. happening i think that it would be uh one ineffective and two politically explosive in a lot of these countries like if any casualties are taken and i think you know the resistance has been very clear that they will oppose they did not accept this they will oppose and that opposition will continue um And I think that could be politically even more explosive. What we're seeing, however, is that there may be the United States creating an enclave and a military base in Gaza. What that shows is there isn't any way to actually get the rest of the world to do the job for the imperial West. If Israel can't accomplish it itself, the imperial West, which has already been pouring in all of its resources, all of its technology, sending mercenaries, sending volunteers from across the West to go and assist, is going to have to actually put troops. That's a really difficult thing in this political atmosphere. This provides the opportunity for the Palestinian solidarity movement to ramp up because those costs will be high and they will highlight. bankruptcy of empire, right? And we're seeing that on the MAGA right. Does the MAGA right want to put U.S. troops in there? They were already outraged at the 12-day war. Many members of the America First isolationist sort of movement were galvanized by this attack on Iran and the way in which the U.S. was more openly, rather than from behind the scenes with all of this military support and funding and so on, but actually having to send its bombers to do this work, it was politically quite difficult, right? So I think they're are those costs uh it's not just to say that these are superhuman people who will never be defeated you're right i mean sometimes we talk like that and that ignores the suffering the absolute devastation people are dealing with but i think from a materialist kind of perspective It's not possible for them to get the rest of the world to do that job, you know, for them. And they've been failing to do it up to this point. But anyway, I've been talking too much. Let's get to others who may want to, you know, come in on this.

Henry Hakamaki: I will be blunt and I will be brief. When we're talking about the situation, I'm glad that the resistance came up throughout this discussion, even though ostensibly the question was related to the peace deal. We have to first consider that, yes, we have to think about preservation of life and of a comfortable living condition for those in Gaza and what can be created in the short term in order to make that possible for preservation of life and creating comfort for the people in Gaza. however if we're talking about peace deals any peace deal that is being proposed by a settler colonial entity like the united states in favor of a settler colonial entity like israel the zionist entity is going to by definition be an unjust deal justice stands with the resistance The only time that we'll actually see justice in Palestine is when the resistance is successful in taking sovereignty of their land and having the ability to defend themselves. Not this West Bank situation where the security forces are essentially only in place to keep the more radical Palestinians in check and not do anything against the Zionist entity. The only time that justice will be achieved is when the resistance is truly successful, when sovereignty for Palestinians is achieved. And when the let's just be blunt about it, when the military and security situation is in the hands of the Palestinians themselves. Am I hopeful that this is going to be something that's going to come in the near term? Absolutely not, which is why we need to consider how to preserve life and how to preserve dignity for the Palestinians in the near term. But if we're talking about whether this deal is a good deal, whether we're talking about that deal would be a better deal. The fact remains that any deal that's being proposed by a settler colonist like the United States and is being done at the behest and in favor of their settler colonial allies like the Zionist entity, inherently, it's going to be unjust. Justice stands with the resistance.

Nardin Kaswani: Yeah, I can also just jump in here unless you wanted to respond first.

Adnan Hussain: Please go ahead, Nadine.

Nardin Kaswani: Yeah, I mean, I think I pretty much agree with everything that's been said so far in regards to this. I don't think it's possible for the plan to succeed in disarming the resistance. I don't think it's even possible. practically, logistically possible in any way. Mostly, what are they going to do? Make sure that every single arm out of Gaza is taken. What about all the unexploded ordinances, which is a lot of what the resistance actually uses as well. But I think Just ideologically, Palestinian resistance has shown that the occupation cannot be legitimized from above. I think what they are trying to do is squeeze out life as much as possible out of the people of Gaza, make life unbearable, unlivable, right? There's a ceasefire that's been violated close to 400 times since... october um there's food uh getting in teresa but it's not real food it's not protein it's like you know ramen noodles and sweets and you know smartphones and all of these things that make the appearance that there isn't currently a famine when functionally It still is one after people haven't eaten for that long to reintroduce food that just destroys the body really doesn't do anything for the people there. So this is intensification of the siege, of the blockade, of the of the genocide, even in covert ways. And then, you know, there's further coordination there. between Israel and Arab states, where these Arab states are clamping down on their own populations from revolting, which was at the beginning of the genocide, we saw people in Jordan, different Arab countries march and speak out against their governments. And at one point, we even thought it might be possible for them to storm the gates and support their brothers and sisters in Gaza. But in order... for them to try to consolidate on this, you know, peace plan, these elites will continue to place their populations under surveillance and control. And this is going to politically divide these comprador regimes and their people more and more and create more instability. It exposes the limits of normalization as a tool of empire because no matter what deals they sign, ultimately the resistance will continue because liberation is rooted in the people and not in these meetings that these leaders are having. So I think in the immediate future, we're just going to see that clash more, more oppression and elite consolidation on one side while there's, you know, persisting and escalating grassroots resistance on the other. So, you know, resistance will continue. It already is. But it's really about whether us as a solidarity movement are ready to match it with with coordinated action. And I mean, you know, not just people like us and like myself in the imperial core. But, you know, all of these Arabs living under their regimes, you know, how willing are they? How far are they going to take to, you know, expose what's happening and stand up against their own government's involvement in it? You know, we've seen flashes here and there. I believe it was In Tunisia, some other North African countries where there was people said they were going to march, even in Egypt, they said they were going to march to the border, you know, that kind of fizzled out. But, you know, I think those underlying tensions and the reasons that people wanted to do that in the first place didn't disappear. And, you know, we're just going to see that manifest in different ways while repression increases on them from their leadership.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, great points. And, you know, I was talking about that with Bikram just on Friday that, you know, this is the expectation that we have to have is that there may be consequences now and mobilization in, you know, neighboring countries in this, you know, kind of Arab and Islamic world where there's been so much repression of any political expression of support and solidarity, even though these sentiments are shared so widely, so strongly. But, you know, they're agreement now, if it can be exposed and shown to be the charade that it is and that the perpetuation of the genocide is continuing, there could be consequences and costs politically in those spheres. That's where I think the contradiction is going to be sharpest. But what one thing that I haven't appreciated that much about the discussion of what happened at the UN Security Council and what can be seen in some ways as a betrayal of the principles of justice and international law, upon which the Palestinian solidarity movement and its claims for, you know, national liberation would be founded on, these universal sorts of principles and anti-imperialist principles, is how the decision not to oppose and veto it by China and Russia that had any kind of criticism expressed about that has been responded to in the same kind of defensiveness that we see about anybody who criticizes Mamdani for not doing things that we think are appropriate to the principles that he claims to stand for. And that kind of response to that suggests some other kind of fault line in our thinking and in our analysis because while we should never be depending upon some other great powers to be the source of liberation you know the struggle is the you know through the resistance that is the principle you know uh line through which uh you know palestine will be liberated um but there was a very defensive kind of response to any criticism of that and that was interesting to me how it was being rationalized and justified and you know i didn't necessarily expect that they should do it or would you know veto i think it's wrong that they didn't. There may be other calculations that are worth discussing, but the rationalizing came in such a fierce way that it was really sort of bigoted about like, well, don't expect China and Russia to do the work that you Arabs are not doing and not capable. Why should they come and save you? It's like, yeah, we shouldn't expect them to come and save, but are they allies? Are they part of like an anti-imperialist front? What is multipolarity if it's just going to reproduce in a different kind of form the same oppressive structures of the world capitalist and imperialist system? You know, like so these are questions that, you know, there's a it seems to me a middle. There's a there's a middle ground here, you know, to to to analyze this, that, you know, you don't want to feed into, you know, anti-China ideas. you know kind of discourse you know but on the same token why can't you criticize and say i think it was a mistake and i think it would have been beneficial if they had you know taken an i a more clear ideological position at this at this moment um so i'm wondering what people think about that um yeah uh henry i i have a a bit to say on this i'll try not to go for too long

Henry Hakamaki: Now, we have to first understand why the vetoes weren't made by Russia and China. And there is more than one reason for each of them. This is the first thing that we have to understand before we can talk about whether it was the right decision or not. Hint, hint, it wasn't the right decision. They should have vetoed it. But before we get to that point where I explain more on that, I'm going to take Russia first, since I live in Russia and have lived in Russia and have a bit more insight into Russia than I do into China. But there's a couple of really dominant reasons why Russia didn't veto it. The first is that, and for the same reason that China likely didn't use their veto either, both Russia and China recognize the Palestinian Authority as the legitimate government of the Palestinian people and the basis for the creation of a Palestinian state, which both the Russian Federation and China are supportive of. The Palestinian Authority has come out in favor of this plan. And so by vetoing the plan that the government The government entity that they recognize is the legitimate authority of the Palestinian people would be like stabbing their own ally in the back in this case. And that is, again, we can say we can talk about why it was the wrong decision to not veto this. But the fact remains that both of these governments for years have recognized the Palestinian Authority as the legitimate government. Both of them for years have talked about the necessity of creation of a Palestinian state, and both of them for years have talked about how the basis for that Palestinian state should be set up utilizing the Palestinian Authority. And so once the Palestinian Authority came out in support of the plan, their hands in that regard were somewhat tied. Now, Russia does have an interesting second point that I think is worth keeping in mind for listeners. And it's not something that's talked about too frequently, but is an interesting point to keep in mind. So a lot of the listeners probably are aware that Russia and Israel have an interesting relationship. It's much more warm than Israel. many may expect and this includes the fact that putin and netanyahu have phone calls relatively frequently with one another there was one within the last 10 days or so it might have been within the last week but definitely within the last 10 days and listeners may be wondering why Does the government of Russia, while calling for the creation of a Palestinian state, still have fairly warm relations with Israel? Guess what percentage of Israelis are native Russian speakers? Anyone want to venture a guess? One-fifth. You're very close. It's between 15% and 20%. It's around 17% of Israelis are native Russian speakers. Now, if listeners are aware of how the Russian government has oriented themselves with regard to the protection of Russian speakers globally within the last decade or so, It makes it difficult also to act extremely forcefully against the community that is largely made up of native Russian speakers, because much of the foreign policy of the Russian Federation is predicated on the protection of Russian speakers globally. And so this is another point that has to be considered in terms of how they orient themselves with regard to Israel and why their relations are fairly warm with Israel, despite calling for a Palestinian state, is that 15 to 20 percent of Israelis are native Russian speakers and the Russian government sees them as Russian diaspora. And so this also colors the way that they are able to orient themselves. Now, if I had to say which of these two factors in the case of Russia was the stronger one, why they didn't veto this, it's certainly the fact that they recognize the Palestinian Authority as the legitimate government of the Palestinian people and not the Palestinian Authority supported the plan. But there is that other wrinkle that does always have to be kept in mind with regard to why the Russian government orients themselves in the way that they do vis-a-vis Israel. Now, China's interest is more of an economic one, but I'm going to wrap up for here because I'm sure that my fellow panelists have plenty to say as well. And I've already talked for quite a bit.

Adnan Hussain: Oh, great. Thanks, Henry.

Henry Hakamaki: Anybody else?

Mehmet Ali Arslan: want to come in on um this somebody ready to wade into the china why didn't china i mean i can i can jump in but i was hoping that nadine would want to say something but uh if she if she wants to rest a bit i can i can jump in um go ahead i mean like I do appreciate Henry's laying out sort of the reasonings, but I would like to say I don't buy it. I mean, I'm not trying to say you're selling it. It's not that, but... I'm certainly not selling it.

Henry Hakamaki: This is just justification that you see here.

Mehmet Ali Arslan: Yeah, I mean, I've seen that expressed a lot online as well in the Twitter debates, especially this idea. So with Russia having Russian speakers, that's I mean, I wasn't expecting Russia to veto it. That's let's put it there, especially after Syria. but this idea that, oh, we recognize the PA as the legitimate authority. I mean, first of all, they know that PA is a collaborator regime. Of course they know. I mean, they're not stupid. Let's not kid ourselves. And at the same time, the resistance factions, all of them, just went out and said don't do this like don't please don't please veto this do something about this and they were ignored like okay I mean there's the justifications all the Arabs and the Turkey and all of them have Indonesia Somalia everyone said this is this is the way to go but like we know that all of them are sort of coerced by this like the empire. I mean, most of them are imperial vessels at this point. So vessels, also vessels, I don't know. So I don't buy that. Like this is, again, if you go back to, okay, so does international law matter? Because that's what they keep talking about as well, like both Russia and China. I mean, if it did matter, they should have vetoed it, definitely. it doesn't i mean we know that so whose interests do they align with more and short-sightedly i can understand that this makes sense for them like china has a lot of relations especially in the recent years with the the made-up uh gulf countries uh again imperial vessels i mean saudi uae all of them um even turkey i guess but not as much i guess because of nato but So short term, that might make sense. But I'm thinking a lot about Venezuela as well. There is an impending war coming on Venezuela. We'll probably see a similar Security Council thing. Maybe. I don't know. What will Russia and China do? I mean, and this is not the first time. This is Libya, Yemen. They've been doing this, playing the same game again and again. And I'm like, do they expect a different result? I don't think they're expecting a different result. Again, they're not stupid.

Adnan Hussain: So what's your answer then, Mehmet? What's the calculation? Because from my mind, I don't only put it in the frame of betrayal. Sure, of principles, maybe it may be, but I don't put it like, oh, they betrayed Libya, they betrayed, because they've got their risk calculations, they decide what's in their interest. Is confrontation with the U.S. going to be too costly in this sphere? Do we want to expend capital on supporting others? But it just seems to me that the more you go on allowing these and not recognizing there is an insatiable imperial West that will destroy you and everyone else. At some point, you have to say it's worth fighting them and opposing them and making sure that a place like Iran, a place like Syria does not fall because it just enables and propels further violence and will be you know, nearing the point at which they will be encircling you. So, you know, it just seems to me, I just feel like the calculation is missing that eventually somebody is going to have to stop them. And do they want to wait until they're alone in working, you know, in solidarity to defeat the empire? Or do they think, well, the empire is on its last legs, it's weakening, it's going to have some violent death throes, you just have to manage and make sure it doesn't harm you, eventually it's going to be a problem that is solved. These are the kinds of questions I have. But obviously, I think if you lose West Asia, if you lose Iran, already it would seem to me a mistake not to have invested in Syria. I'm not saying, oh, they have to go in and do what the United States and its allies do in trying to subvert Syria and putting forces, sending in insurgents, militias, these Wahhabi death squads, etc. You don't have to counter it that way. But when it was under extreme sanctions, you can invest there. They were originally supposed to be part of the Belt and Road Initiative. Put in some money. But of course, if you do that, you're targeted by the US. But only China is capable, really, of just resisting. They could still do it. And it just seems that if you put in material investment, that would not have been a vulnerable state in quite the same way. And so... these are the kinds of questions that I have, but who am I, you know, I'm just somebody sitting here on the internet saying, but, you know, it just seems to me that the defensive reaction to try and justify it was, has gone a little bit over the top too, and perpetuated some racist sort of ideas, you know, and, um, ignores the fact that the peoples of the Middle East Islamic world have been suffering 40, well, you could say 100, 110 years of interventions, wars, regime change, subversion. But let's just take the last 30 years or so. It has been completely devastated by U.S. imperial occupations, invasions, sanctions, sponsoring these kind of militias. Look at what's happened to Yemen, to Libya, what's happening right now in Sudan, what's happened, you know, invasion of Iraq. I mean, no world region has suffered the kind of onslaught of U.S. and Western imperial intervention and violence. I mean, at some point, you have to say, look, these people have suffered enough. They have done their duty. We need to prevent the complete fall of this entire region to subjugation because that's actually geopolitically also a real danger for China. You want the energy resources. You're not yet at green energy independence completely. You still need 10, 15, 20 years of access to the Gulf, right? You can't let this completely come under US control and try and kind of isolate you from a major source of energy. So anyway, that's just my kind of rant, trying to do a little kind of, you know, professorial version of a Sina rant. It's not as good, I know, not as satisfying. But that's kind of one of some of the problems that I see, you know, here that we're really wrestling with. But at any rate, I want to turn it over to anybody else before maybe we come to talking about the MAGA and some other controversies. We have too many controversies sort of fissuring us, but we have to kind of try and talk about all of them and put us on a better track. But anything else on this sort of question?

Sina Rahmani: So I'm going to put myself on the stage. I am the only one with agency in this conversation. Actually, no, Adna, you have agency too. You could take me off the stage. So this is my thinking. So there's a couple of different things. This sort of debate over the UN vote. My view is this. We are far past the pieces that had to come together. Earlier I showed this image. This image of all the vassal Arab and Muslim states. array they the u.s forced all of its vassal leaders that it controls under its thumb it forced them to meet and it forced them to get behind this the u.s has also forced it's it's like you know second it's like not even ostensible vassals like algeria that the muscling over this un resolution to me represents a moment where the u.s is directly intervening And into the Al-Aqsa flood war and operation, right? And the counter-revolutionary sort of the counter-revolutionary response, the global counter-revolutionary response to what is basically a sort of active global revolution, which is what October 7th was. is that it was an attempt to upend the world order. Like gravity didn't, like gravity was turned upside down by this act on October 7th. And we are in like two years now of counter-revolutionary, like, you know, increasingly irrational too, getting together. And so I'm thinking that the US is getting directly bogged down into this, is not going to plan, is not going to the plan of the imperialists. The imperialists have so many things going wrong for them at the moment. They are losing in Ukraine. They are losing around the economic sphere to China. That's gone. Western economic supremacy is gone. It's done. It's in a coffin. It's already got nails in it. Western energy supremacy is going and this last vestige of being controlled, the gates of the petrodollar and protecting these precious little racist ethnostates. This seems to be the hill that the US empire wants to die on. And that, to me, signals a very dangerous moment. And obviously, the first people who know this are, you know, Nardin's people, the Palestinian people who were like the front of the global revolutionary struggle against imperialism. Like, I think Palestinians really are the first front against a certain... I don't want to say world order because it sounds stupid now because Chuds ruined that. But like a world system, I want to say like Palestinians are the front line and they also have very few allies behind them. That's the reality. They have Iran. They have South Lebanon. They have Yemen. That's it. They have a fake government that has been set up for the last 30 years to do exactly what it's doing now, which is to ensure that any flame, any spark, revolutionary spark is put out with a hail of bullets. That they're doing that job and that the fictional government of Palestine, which is just this vassal entity controlled by other U.S. imperial vassal entities, the Gulf and Turkey. God, it's like it's so crazy to parse like this, this crazy game that the U.S. is doing. But I don't think like. This little Dutch boy approach to foreign policy of putting out every single problem onto its back is working. I think this Zio ethnostate is costing the US empire in all kinds of ways. I think the contradictions confronting the ethnostate are actually what we've missed out on this conversation because they're the ones who have to be a dependent American entity A Euro-American entity dependent economically, militarily, socioeconomically. All these things, they are dependent entity on the West. And that West is sundowning. It is eclipsing. It is eating its own... It's reaching into its diaper and eating its own shit. And that rational being is not there. And so they're watching their, let's say, patron... I mean, that's not the correct word, but let's just say they're historical patron. Let's put it that way. That's probably better. They're watching their own decline and they're watching entities who are not necessarily hostile to them. And this is where the tanky sphere is getting out with their pitchforks, which I agree. Like, yeah, you should hold their feet. to the fire go ahead uh but the vote itself was a process that was way bigger than that vote that that was like the that was like the pins had been set up for this strike long ago the handshake on the lawn the the like you can always pull back to the plo decision to support saddam like that like all these things are like you can trace them in this moment that we're in now And Al-Aqsa flood was an attempt to sort of like, you know, like the meme you put like the screwdriver in your bicycle. Like you're trying to like upend history. And that was an attempt. And this moment we're in now where the U.S. empire finds itself really intervening, really managing, desperate to give the ethnostate any kind of victory. even to the point of unleashing it upon Lebanon again, which could face dire catastrophe. And so the irrationality of the ethnostate is now spreading outwards in this kind of centrifugal motion all around it. And so you have frothing at the mouth fascists in the US who are increasingly facing a hostile populace. I don't know what that actually means in the end, I'm pretty sure that I didn't have much faith in her to begin with, but Marjorie Taylor Greene resigning is a sign that the ruling class is not going to buck any kind of questioning of their agenda, at least from their own side. I mean, the lefties can have their weirdos. That's their job. But from their own side, which is now the consolidated base of Zionism, to have people like her, I don't think... I don't know. That's like an interesting one of like reading the tea leaves and all this stuff. I think at the end of the day, the U.S. empire is like a done and dusted entity. What that defeat is going to look like, maybe that's what this Holocaust we're watching is part of it. that like it is that this is this is payment. This is like they're taking out some kind of rage, a kind of historical rage for their own defeat first and foremost on the people of Gaza through the ethno state. But it's way bigger than that, too, because there's so many other factors included in all this, which is like the all these countries, vassalized countries are themselves panicking over the decline of the U.S. because that's That's the sun, that's gravity, that's everything. Qatar is just like a military base for the US. What are the Saudis going to do? They can't neon their way into a new world. They couldn't even build their fake money laundering city without it getting shut down. I think we have to remember that. Yes, the David and Goliath nature of the Palestinian liberation struggle, Does really daunt you where you look and you just see these beasts and the immense power they have. I mean, it's a nuclear entity fighting indigenous people like who were basically landless peasants who turned into urban city dwellers, like into a refugee camp called Gaza, like basically in a sense. And they face them down and they face not just like that entity, but. Like this is not, this is, you know, they're facing down the entire planet. So I, you know, this is a really scary moment. That picture, that picture like haunts me of all the vassals around Trump. It's just like keeps me up at night. Because they're going for it. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine, this war for Palestine, they are going for everything. I mean, this is not breaking news here. We've noticed for the last two years. But this is... They're like Laban's realm... thing is is in full and and they're locking down any kind of criticism obviously the press has gone even more silent that's partly what this fake ceasefire was for anyways that's my rant i was holding that in for an hour and 20 minutes thanks folks

Adnan Hussain: Classic. You touched upon a lot of things that we could pull some threads there. But I'm wondering if anybody else wants to talk about this and or maybe bring it back to the consequences of this kind of MAGA right wing criticism of, you know, Israel from this America first perspective and how that is causing all kinds of, you know, contortions and issues. I know, Mehmet, you had some interesting tweets on this and Nardin also, that might be another direction to talk about a little bit further. You also mentioned Ukraine and so on. So we could also talk a little bit about that. but um who'd like to um get involved here on this kind of question um the floor is totally open and as people have pointed out um It's a risk if I try to ask you a question that it'll turn into an entire essay. So I don't want to take that risk when there's a chance here that you might have something to say. So let's open the floor because we're getting close to the end. I don't want to keep people waiting. too much longer than the 90 minutes. And also I want to reserve a little bit of time right at the end for people to highlight, you know, any organizations, you know, for support that they want to kind of shout out or highlight and so on. So before we end up closing and wrapping and talking about that, there's still... a lot that we could discuss. So the floor is open.

Sina Rahmani: I say we put Nardine. It's been a while since we've heard from Nardine. The people demand Nardine.

Adnan Hussain: We don't want to put... Yeah, there we go.

Nardin Kaswani: I mean, I think, you know, you really like hit the nail on the head. I was progressively coming closer to the screen as you were speaking because it was actually like so compelling and, you know, just thinking about the daunting task of taking down empire that, you know, Palestinians have taken on. It just, you know, conjures up this imagery of like, you know, all of these like big machines that are meant to, um you know destroy us and you know all it takes is is actually just refusal and a little bit of uh you know throwing a stone throwing a wrench um in that machine like that like the meme you mentioned um that could really put a stop to this and that's something that you know palestinians um firmly believe and i think that belief is inspiring um to people around the world and that's what makes You know, Palestinian resistance so dangerous. Is it because it inspires, you know, global revolution everywhere? It's really the fact that Palestinians aren't afraid to die, that they have, you know, unshakable faith that they would rather live in dignity. a minute of dignity is worth, you know, a thousand years of living, you know, under, is worth more than living a thousand years, you know, under the oppressor. You know, these are ideas that Palestinians embody that if others, you know, believe themselves, we would be able to, you know, resist this in a much more, you know, coordinated fashion. And I think, you know, ultimately it shows that You know, just going back to like the Russia and China vote, you know, I don't think it would have really made a difference. Right. Like this plan was going to come along and Palestinians are going to resist regardless. And they're managing their own interests within the global system. And I think people are totally within their right to criticize that. I reserve a lot of I mean, I reserve my criticism. for the US as somebody who lives here, as people who are the main benefactors and contributors to the genocide of Palestine. Because honestly, I see a lot of the criticism coming from people who are not well-meaning, people who want to just dunk on you know, this idea of a tankie and kind of like get the blame off of themselves and, you know, point the finger elsewhere. And I think that's where a lot of the U.S. like left has been, especially when, you know, you look at the Ukraine conversation the last couple of years and, you know, this idea of like, you know, China perpetuating genocides that, you know, some people still buy it and still crops up. So, you know, I just don't contribute to this conversation much because like, I still think like people around me, you know, people in the US, like my community in the US still buys into those conversations. So that's probably why I feel like, you know, I don't really talk about it. Although I think, you know, everyone is up for criticism when it comes to this. I just think that, you know, we cut U.S. politicians way too much slack. We cut the U.S. too much slack. You know, this idea that, oh, and this kind of like brings us into the MAGA thing, this idea that like the U.S. is just a poor little, you know, mesquite country that's just, you know, being occupied by Zionists. And, you know, if only like Americans knew the truth, if Americans knew, I think that was a website actually at one point, ifamericansknew.org,

Adnan Hussain: There was a book, yeah, If Only They Knew. And it's like from 40 years ago. And it was like, oh, AIPAC, if only the Americans knew, you know, but that's 40 years ago. And like everything has happened, you know.

Nardin Kaswani: Exactly. People know. And I mean, people have been known. I think now they can't even claim not to just because it's so... Widespread and so blatant and like in the words of Sarah Hurwitz, people are talking through a wall of and Van Jones of dead Gaza, you know, babies, you know, people, people know. And I think, you know, there is a lot of frustration from. You know, Palestinians, especially I see a lot of Arabs and Palestinians that are frustrated at the left for continuing to, you know, kind of like mask that or, you know, provide justifications for why leftist politicians need to maneuver. Right. So I'm more interested, you know, in that conversation. And I think, you know, because of that, because the right could be so unabashed about the way that they say things. You know, I see more and more people in my community. I know like liking Candace Owens post liking like Tucker Carlson post liking even Nick Fuentes. And that's not something that, you know, people really want to admit or talk about, but they are gaining a lot of popularity in our communities. hear from people who are even, you know, apolitical, except for like on the question of Palestine. And I think it's because they speak with more clarity, even though I think, you know, it's still a grift. And I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, just to make no mistake for this to get clipped or whatever. I'm not supporting or promoting or you know, agreeing, you know, with them, you know, in any sense. But I think, you know, they speak, they're able to speak with more clarity, with more, you know, righteous, like, anger, you know, against Zionism than most, a majority of, like, whatever people popular left media there is. I mean, obviously, I'd love if everybody could watch shows like this, but, you know, we're just not getting millions and hundreds of millions of views the way that, you know, these three aforementioned, you know, podcasts, right wing podcasters or, you know, media outlets are really getting. And I think, you know, that's just going to push more and more people to the right and ignore, you know, all of the other questions of things that, you know, that they're talking about in terms of like anti-Black racism, you know, homophobia, you know, all of the anti-immigration policies that there is. And, you know, ultimately, I think for some people, they think that they're contributing to like this rift, breaking the ranks of people on the right wing, which is why they are, you know, supporting and invested. And people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and why you see pro-Palestinian organizations and notable figures, you know, thanking her for her work, calling her courageous, even people that I respect, have done that, which, you know, is a little bit frustrating and upsetting to see. But I think, you know, people haven't seen, you know, politicians or left folks stand up to Israel at all in the same way. And they're just grasping for straws, looking for, you know, anywhere they can where they can kind of just heighten those contradictions. And it seems like it's more viable on the right than it is on the left now.

Adnan Hussain: Absolutely. I mean, I wonder why, you know, there's a lot more to be said about that. I mean, but why can they be so much clearer? One reason why is because, A, it already fits into narratives that are accepted, you know, about America, you know, so it can be... a way of rescuing the American self-narrative, right? You know, and the innocence abroad, you know, if only we knew and we've been subverted and, you know, and secondly, so that's one component. The other component, it seems to me, is that well they don't mind on the right you know being kind of anti-semitic like like if that if that's actually what happens because they they you know they oppose they're okay with the racism they're okay with bigotry they're okay with you know these sorts of things and you know it's a more uh careful position that people have to take if you genuinely want to honor and respect You know, everybody as equal human beings and not create, you know, and not fuel. You have to actually think about that, you know. And the third thing, it seems to me, is without an understanding of the history of U.S. empire. which is the big part that's missing from their perspective in this isolationist sort of perspective, doesn't take into account that you only have the America you have because of settler colonialism, imperialism, genocide, here and abroad. Of course, if you just evacuate that from the perspective, then it makes sense to think about it as a project that's rescuable and it's not actually involved in framing this world system of inequity and injustice, which is why the anti-imperialist position is so much more difficult to articulate to imperial core audience because they've been trained in every way possible. to ignore the way in which their whole system, their whole society has been built upon, you know, capitalist and imperialist and settler colonial exploitation, right? And if you confront that, then you're a leftist, actually, you know, then you're actually a leftist. So I think, you know, this is a key kind of question, and it is deeply concerning to see how many people within, you know, our community of Palestinian solidarity are, you know, attracted by the right because they are very clearly condemning in this moment of desperation, Israel's actions in ways that so many, you know, progressive politicians, which maybe if we're coming back, you know, this is the reason why Mamdani was popular in some ways is because for a brief moment, it appeared that he was a courageous, you know, able to call out these issues from the kind of left perspective. And that is actually enormously attractive. And when it can be articulated, it does galvanize people. It's just we don't have a lot of people who are consistent in doing that. But You know, any other closing thoughts here? Everybody's been so generous with their time and it's been such a wonderful conversation that I've appreciated and I can see in the chat people are really appreciating. But, you know, any kind of closing remarks people want to make? And then also, you know, please do tell people where they can find you and follow you. And if you have any organizations or individuals that you want to kind of highlight for appeals, for support, who are doing good work, or who are, you know, we can be in solidarity with, I think we all welcome that because we want to not only talk and learn, but also act in any way we can in solidarity. Why don't we start? Mehmet, Ali, it's been a while and maybe you can start the closing round.

Mehmet Ali Arslan: Yeah, I just wanted to add to Nadine's great input. I just read the other day a news on two Texan guys, dudes, like Snow White guys, who literally planned invading a Haitian island, killing all men, making the women sex slaves and then doing a whole bunch of insane shit so it's like shall we make alliances with the white supremacists and no i don't think that's a good idea actually i think that's a terrible idea these are the people i mean of course it's like an extreme side of it but like watch or like they if they listen to exterminate all the brutes like read the book or watch the documentary they're gonna go yeah that's that's what we should do actually these are the people so i i don't i don't get this uh idea in general like from like i can understand people who i don't know like people who aren't initiated but who are The people who should know better, who have a platform and a voice, they should at least know the Palestinian revolutionary history and sort of identify as PFLP's, what was it called, the strategy of liberation of Palestine. They start with identifying the enemy. I mean, I think that's what we all should do. And I mean, the definitions can change, of course, from... depending on where you look at things. But I think that's a great start. And I think we should all do that. One thing I keep thinking about when we talk about the empire and its goals is that I think me and other people do it as well quite often that we sort of personalize it and think like, okay, this empire has this goal now and then it has this other goal now. But I think they almost always do like, a lot of branches of ideas and goals and then collaterals on those as well. Like, this works. If it doesn't work, then we do this. And then if it doesn't work, that partial good scenario is also great for us. And I don't know. I just want people to be aware of that when thinking about this. They strategize in many parallel lanes. And you focusing on one is not necessarily the one they are... After all, they're fine with something else as well. I think we should keep that in mind. And I'll keep it there. People can find me or the podcast on Twitter. They can find me on Twitter as Memudin, M-E-M-U-D-I-N. And the podcast is Fred Setsara. I don't know. You can link it, I guess. It's a bit more difficult. But if you find me, then you'll find the podcast as well.

Adnan Hussain: I will link it, and it's in the description for this video, the name of the podcast. So people can find it. Sina.

Sina Rahmani: Okay. Hi. Wait. Okay. Here's my final thoughts. Uh, wait, I had it. I had it. It will come back. We'll come back. I had actual, I had a good final thought. Oh no, it's gone. Well, it'll come back to me maybe in the next 30 seconds. I have, you know, I have a show East is a podcast. I produced a bunch of other shows for people, including this show. What else? I think we, oh, here it is. I think we are confronting in the West as resistoids. We are confronting the most some of the most fascist anti-communist people ever created that like hatched from the bosom of like the most hateful corners of Virginia and like, you know, of American life, like the evil of communism and anything radical. And previous to that, too, right? Like it's the U.S. is a society founded on counterrevolution. We know Gerald Horn's thesis about what the U.S. is as a project, as a national independence project, which is to say. So I don't think... I have very little actual faith in that populace to come towards us voluntarily. Now, what do I mean by that? I don't mean put them in camps and educate them. That's not what I mean. What I mean more is I think, and I said this earlier, economic collapse, ecological collapse, will be extremely ugly in a place like the US. And I think then there will be a moment where people will look around at the ruling class and at their media to say, what have you been doing? What exactly do you do here? Like the office space interrogation. And it may be then when we find them. And maybe then when we have to be prepared to catch a bunch of people who are reeling as their comfortable life declines. And the urge to fascism will be hard. It'll be like a pulsating, a throbbing heartbeat of fascism that just comes so naturally to Westoids. I think because they've had a fascist existence. I don't even think we should even use the word fascism in a sense because it's just basically liberalism, liberal bourgeois democracy, and fascism, imperialism, all these things because you're naturalizing something. You're using a word and intellectualizing something that's basically a racist overlay because when they did fascism in India for centuries, it was just called colonial rule. But when they do it for 15 years in Germany, it's unthinkable. It's a world system. Oh my God. I try not to naturalize this stuff about fascism, but also at the same time, this is a fascist society. I live in a fascist society. There's a bunch of fascists all around me and some of them are liberals, some of them are conservatives, but like a whole ton of them have just like looked the other way as like the most violent racist ethnostate like does like eco and genocide and all the bad things and as their own supporters cheer it on openly. And like liberals are not just like too afraid to say anything in most parts, I think most instances, but a lot of them are cheering it on. A lot of them are finding excuses to be like, yeah, this is right. You know, so that moment we're in, I don't think we'll ever we'll never get the like MSNBC viewer. I like watching this show, but we will when they have no power. And like there's no like and they have nowhere they have to get Internet for an hour a day somewhere and they have to like download something. Like I think I think the media atmosphere, the media economy will change. It is changing downstream of like many of the many things that have happened from all this. Anyways, that's my concluding thought. I don't even remember how I got started, but watch my show. East is a podcast. It's a good show. I try to keep it produced regularly. It never actually comes out regularly, but who knows? OK, thanks for having me here, Adnan. Appreciate the invite. I'm putting Henry on the screen.

Adnan Hussain: Yeah, put Henry on.

Henry Hakamaki: All right. It's late. It's almost one in the morning, my time. So my closing remarks will be brief. That way I can remain at least somewhat coherent during them. I think that the key thing to keep in mind is that if we're being serious about our goal being to end capitalist imperialism as a global system, we have to think about how to end the system by breaking the chains of imperialism in the periphery. and we've been talking primarily about palestine today but this question extends far beyond that and the the point that i'm trying to make is that the listeners really need to be thinking about how to support anti-colonial anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist movements globally and particularly in the global south the locus is of the most extreme forms of oppression, the most exploitative relationships between the capitalist imperialist core and the periphery. So thinking how you can support movements in those places, thinking what you can do to further their goals and to bring about the breaking of that imperialist chain, de-linking using Samira Min's terminology, That is going to be the key in terms of thinking how to get beyond the current exploitative unjust system that the world system has been operating under for centuries at this point, but in a particularly rapacious form within the last several decades at this point. So that is the key that I want to leave the listeners with, is that whether we're talking about Palestine or whether we're talking about other highly exploited and highly oppressed places in the world, or even whether we're talking about oppressed populations within the global core, the question is answered by how are we breaking those chains of imperialism in the periphery. So I don't have specific answers in terms of what you need to do in each of your cases, listeners. The context that you're in is going to determine what you can and should be doing. Now, in terms of how to keep up with me, I'm very much not on social media these days. Sanctions on Russia make it pretty hard for me to get online, but you can follow me on social media at Huck1995, H-U-C-K-1-9-9-5. You can follow the show that Adnan and I... co-host guerrilla history it's available on all podcast platforms and we generally have an episode out every friday so uh you know check that out we have a lot of stuff coming out we're currently in the middle of an african revolutions and decolonization series which is coming out every other week so if you're interested in african revolutions and decolonization that's certainly something that you should check out there i also do want to mention iskra books briefly i had seen in the chat that a couple of people had been talking about some of the books that iskra's been doing As I'm sure some of the listeners know, I do stuff with Iskra. These are Iskra books behind me, for those of you that are watching on YouTube, including a couple that I've worked on. But again, since the topic today was regarding Palestine, a couple of books that I would like to bring to the attention of the listeners are historical documents of the PLO, which you can see here. historical documents of the Popular Front, which came out after I came back to Russia from visiting my family in the U.S. So Adnan is holding it up. I don't have a physical copy of it right now because it's impossible to ship to Russia from the U.S. We also just put out via Iskra our newest book, The Sword in the Neck, reading of the Al-Aqsa flood. Just so people know, if you're not aware of Iskra Books, the PDFs for all of our books are available for free at iskrabooks.org. But I do encourage you, if you have the ability of buying the books physically, of doing so. And that's for two reasons. One, most of the books we operate on very tiny margins. We're an all volunteer run organization and purchasing the physical books allow us to cover the expenses of maintaining websites and printing costs and things like that. But additionally, these books, the historical documents of the PLO and PFLP books are fundraiser books. And those funds go to the Middle Eastern Children's Alliance and help support people that are in areas that are particularly victimized by oppression, by imperialism and by capitalism. And so if you have the ability of buying the physical books, You can get them outside of the United States as well very easily. If you're in a place that doesn't have them on your book sites, you can contact Iskra Books. Email links are on iskrabooks.org to get a hold of them. And we can hook you up with things like that. So I do recommend actually buying the books physically if you can. But like I said, PDFs are available on the site for free. And lastly, I know that Adnan had mentioned organizations to support. Thank you. Being in Russia, I don't have the ability to regularly support organizations that are outside of Russia because we are more or less cut off from the global financial architecture. So transferring money from here is more or less impossible. So again, this goes to the point that I made about what each of you can do, listeners, is to think what organizations are operating within your contexts and think how you can support those. So in my case, what I'm able to support now are some organizations local charities i know i i donate to a charity every month that supports veterans of the great patriotic war world war ii and afghan veterans and inevitably veterans of the special military operation will be transferred into the the purview of that charity as well i just donated for New Year's presents for children in the Donbass. So you know, that's what I can do in my context, your context is going to differ. So my recommendation is to look what organizations are doing good work that you are able to support in your case, because my situation is just different than yours listeners.

Adnan Hussain: Lastly, I think near Dean,

Nardin Kaswani: Yeah, just to quickly wrap up our final thought on the last conversation we were having about the MAGA rift and more so like why people in the Palestinian cause have kind of been gravitating towards that conversation and why this rift is happening. I think it's important to name that Zionism has always been invested in both white supremacy and antisemitism. It rooted Jewish safety in empire rather than in solidarity with other oppressed groups. So by aligning itself with colonial power, it accepted the logic that safety could only come through separation and domination, that Jews all over the world are not safe and we shouldn't fight for safety for Jews all over the world. They should just go to Israel. And now those same forces that Zionists aligned with are turning on them. So Palestinians and our allies who've long been falsely accused of anti-Semitism for opposing Zionism, right, for decades, we're now watching that narrative unravel and it's exposing what we've been saying all along. And I feel like, you know, people want to kind of egg that conversation on because it's a breakthrough of what, you know, we've been screaming through the other side of the wall that that really hasn't. So, you know, whether or not some of these figures are or aren't anti-Semitic doesn't even matter anymore because that accusation has been weaponized so quickly. And so, you know, unresponsibly, irresponsibly, that it's rendered itself meaningless. But I also think that, you know, people kind of only see a breakthrough in this rather than, you know, what we should be doing. the work that really isn't being done, especially work that's kind of been disrupted over the last two years because people just feel like, you know, protests and all of these things that we've been doing haven't really yielded any results. And, you know, this just, you know, corrupted like sense of individualism in the U.S. and that really comes from a place of economic collapse in many ways. People aren't really able to build a life for themselves. People are struggling, albeit much less than in the global south and around the world. People are still feeling that here within the empire. And I think instead of us just kind of resigning to this powerlessness, what organizations should be doing is building a cradle of resistance right where we are that doesn't just react to repression, but creates the conditions for liberation wherever we live, in our schools, workplaces, communities, places of worship. Every time we organize, protect one another, we refuse to be silenced. We participate in mutual aid, whether in the form of food, of hiring people who've been fired for their pro-Palestine positions, of treating people who need health care, who don't have insurance, right, from like, you know, doctors and clinics that support, you know, the struggle, we're building that cradle. So it's where movements grow, where fear turns into strategy and where solidarity becomes, you know, something material because the empire isn't just somewhere else. It's also here. The U.S. is a house of oppressed nation. It's a house of oppressed nations, of refugees, you know, who fled their home countries because of conditions that the U.S. created. And, you know, we always say it's most important to resist from within the belly of the beast and that the beast lashes out the most when it's on the precipice of war. of crumbling. And that's work that we've been talking about for a long time, but it's becoming increasingly harder to do and all the more important. So I just wish people would stop you know, looking at electoral politics and this, it's literally morphed into reality TV as our only way out rather than investing in each other. And that's why I appreciated your comment about like the divisiveness that's been growing. Half the time I talk on Twitter, I honestly regret it. I'm just like, I don't, I'd rather things just kind of play out and people see it for what it is. Because I just see, you know, people turning on me, people turning on each other because of really like mild, simple and generous criticisms. Believe me, there's a lot more behind the scenes about Mamdani and others that if we were to expose would be I think a much bigger deal that we haven't even said. We're just talking publicly about his stated public positions, political positions, which I think are fair game. I really did not expect this level of reaction. But I would rather work more to unify our communities and supporting each other where it counts, because unless we carve out these cradles for ourselves and for our movements, then we're just ensuring That that will be crushed, especially with the constant prescription of organizations in Palestine and even in the US, right, as as either FTOs as specially designated organizations. um terrorist organizations that you know even seeing what's going happening to pal action and the uk um you know the repression's been building up and and there's been i think even less resistance to it um than you know prior to october 7th um and it feels like it's a moment of of reckoning where we organizations and communities have to come together and consolidate to at least defend each other moving forward. And that's why I think it's really important to support grassroots organizations in your locale, build them. People always ask me all the time about starting within our lifetime chapter. And I say, if you're inspired by what we do, just create your own you know, local community organization where you're at that fits your needs. We're not trying to be a brand building project or a media project or, you know, any of these things. We're trying to be here, you know, for our local community. And that's what I think everybody should work on. But, you know, if you do want to hear our takes, especially on what's going on in New York City. And you can find us on social media, Twitter at WOL Palestine. And on Telegram, we were unfortunately banned from Instagram and all meta platforms. So you can't find us there, but it's WOL Palestine. And if you want to follow me personally, I put my handle on my screen. And it's just my name. But again, thank you all for this really insightful conversation. And it was really a pleasure listening to you all. And it was an honor to be a part of this.

Adnan Hussain: That's a wonderful way to close. Beautiful sentiments and so important to bring us back to what makes a difference is working in our communities to build that resistance, solidarity, and support one another. So I'm thankful so much for those remarks, for all the wise and insightful comments and analysis from the panelists. and all of you. The chat has been very active with people engaging with a lot of good discussion. I love these live streams because of the community that's being formed where we try and educate and support one another. Let's go forward. I'll just say that, you know, in terms of an organization that I'll bring some attention to, inspired a little bit by Nardine's point about working to support your communities locally, an organization that I'm on the board of and that was founded by my parents, specifically my mother in our garage 30 odd years ago called Rahima Foundation. You can find it rahima.org, R-A-H ima.org that is you know a food and support assistance that started with refugees and it continues to serve the local community in the south bay san jose area of california and so if you can support them that would be great otherwise of course i always say the samir project and one of the things that i really appreciate about them is because They are a Palestinian-led mutual aid organization trying to build the infrastructure for keeping people on the land, on their land. So I know there's so many individual appeals. Help as many of them as you can. Lifeline for Gaza is a great place to find personal appeals where people haven't had activity and support for a long time. But I do like the idea of collective solutions of mutual aid. So that's what I love about the Samir Project. You can find them and donate to them. And I hope we'll have another fundraiser with some of my colleagues and friends in this space to do another online fundraiser. We don't know if it was our efforts, but at least while we were on air, it went up $20,000 for the Samir Project. And we need to do that again and bring more attention because... Right now, there's a lot of confusion about aid getting in. It's not, you know, people need the support. So let's work with them. So until next time, this has been a great struggle session. I appreciate it so much. All of you. who've participated, whether in the chat or on the panel. Thank you so much. And I hope we'll be talking again soon, inshallah, within our lifetime. So let's go forward and make a difference. So peace with justice and solidarity to you all. Assalamualaikum. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.