Elias Bou Saab - On the Israeli, Lebanese Maritime Border Agreement (2022)

Ghadi Francis: Thank you for having us, Mr. Deputy. The first question that comes to my mind, everyone is touting this deal as historic. Why? Why is it a historic deal?

Elias Bou Saab: It's a historic deal because we have never seen a deal between two countries. One of them, which is Lebanon, considers Israel as an enemy, and we don't recognize the existence of that country. and then we negotiate indirectly through a third party without recognizing each other. We have to establish a border, a maritime border, and agree that this is our border and agree that we will have to provide an opportunity to finalize the economic blocks of both sides and allow each side to work on the economic blocks in the sea. It's historic because we have never seen a case like that in history where two countries don't recognize each other, don't have a relationship with each other, don't have any kind of relation. They negotiate through a third party. They reach a deal. They reach an agreement. And each part thinks that they have achieved what they wanted from it.

Ghadi Francis: With a fast scroll over the Israeli media and the Lebanese media and the political scene, everybody has something to say. There are many skeptics, and we will get to that. But first, I must ask, the whole world is looking at Hezbollah's role. What was Hezbollah's role during the negotiations? Did it help? Did it cause problems? As we all know, and we have previously reported about the drones that were active during the negotiations. Could you elaborate on that part? What was Hezbollah's role?

Elias Bou Saab: In the direct negotiation, they had no role. But the presence of Hezbollah in Lebanon was a factor that helped Lebanon in the negotiation because they are a force that exists and they could be a threat if the other side decided to start producing their gas and object if Lebanon is to do the same. They realized that for them to be able to move forward, they must find a solution for Lebanon as well. That existence of the Hezbollah in this particular situation facilitated, if you wish, the deal to move forward. but they didn't have any direct involvement in the negotiation. All we knew from the president that I am representing on this file is that the only discussion that they've had with Hezbollah is related to where the Lebanese border as it's set by the Lebanese government is. And as long as we are protecting that border, They did not want to get involved in any economical discussions or negotiations or any sort of that.

Ghadi Francis: Okay. Is there any idea about how their role would be in the future in case of problems, as you stated? Maybe there was not really equivalent role in the gas extraction and so on. Will Hezbollah be in the scene in the future, or is there any insurance that they won't?

Elias Bou Saab: This was never discussed in the deal. You know, the resistance which you call, you know, Hezbollah which we call the resistance in Lebanon, they exist here and as long as there is a need that they see, they need to exist to protect Lebanon and its border, they will be there. But our hope is that existence would not be needed and how would that be? when Israel recognizes our full rights, when we know that they are not occupying part of our land, and when we know that they are no more threat to trying to claim land or sea border or even the water, as a matter of fact, in the south of Lebanon. So their presence is something that is internal. Lebanon wishes that that role will end, but that could end only in internal negotiation when the time comes and we know that there is no need for such resistance to be in existence.

Ghadi Francis: okay then we must ask about the deal itself you know there has been a draft that is circulating in English and in Arabic and many skeptical voices have been questioning the role of the United States actually in this deal no company can extract without the okay coming from the United States any problem would be mediated from the United States and not from courts that are So there is really fear. Do you think the U.S. promised Lebanon there would be extraction of gas in Lebanon?

Elias Bou Saab: Look, the agreement spoke about the circumstances that you are describing about extracting gas in the Kana field in particular. Why? Because that field moves from the northern part of line 23 to the southern part which is in the water, in the territory, in the Israeli, in the Palestinian sea.

Ghadi Francis: It's a disputed area in general.

Elias Bou Saab: It's not disputed. After we finalize the demarcation, it's no longer disputed. So after our border, the Kana field crosses our border to the other side. What Lebanon gained in that negotiation is that we said we want the rights, our economic rights, in the entire field of Kana, even if it crosses our border. And so the Americans brokered that deal. And they said, we are brokering that deal. We will guarantee you that you will earn all your rights from it, economic rights. And in return, the Israelis can be compensated from the profits of the operator, of Total in that case. So Lebanon will gain all its profits, all its shares, and total in return will compensate the other side. Why did the Americans say that they are guaranteeing that deal? And because they're guaranteeing that deal, they cannot be working with any company that may have sanctions in the United States according to their law. But we agreed, we argued, that we don't want it to be U.S. sanctions. We will accept international sanctions. And that's what it reflected in the end.

Ghadi Francis: Just to elaborate on that thought, in the future, if a Russian or a Chinese or any whatsoever company wanted to extract oil, it has to get the okay from the United States.

Elias Bou Saab: Not really, because if they have international sanctions, but when you talk about Chinese, for example, you would have to go to the United Nations to force sanctions, and they have a veto right.

Ghadi Francis: But then again, we have the president, which is in Cyprus, as I'm sure you are. When informed about that as the Lebanese top negotiator, there is a common field between the Cyprus and Israel. And Israel has limited percentage from that field, but still it was able, due to the lobbying, due to the U.S. friendship, to stop extraction from that. Some skeptic voices are asking, and they're really talking about this precedent.

Elias Bou Saab: Cyprus and Israel is not like Lebanon and Israel.

Ghadi Francis: But Israel was able to stop Cyprus from extraction.

Elias Bou Saab: If Israel is to stop that in Lebanon, they know that they will not be able to extract gas from their side as well. And that is the key that, if you wish, guarantees our deal. In addition to the American guarantee, because when President Biden spoke with President Trump on the phone, He clearly told President Aoun that the United States would guarantee and that they will make sure that Israel will obey or will implement the agreement that is in place. And Lebanon will start extracting gas or the Total, the company, will start working immediately. The next day we had a visit from Total who confirmed to Lebanon the same thing. And they said we are ready. It will take us a few weeks or months until we are in the sea and they will move immediately. So, yes, things were guaranteed, but at the same time, we have our own guarantees as well.

Ghadi Francis: Okay. So, as a viewer, especially the global viewer, they hear many headlines with Hezbollah. And now we cannot really dismiss that the deputy of Hezbollah said that we cannot call it a deal until it is signed in al-Nakoura, and then we can speak about it. So, then again, Mr. Abu Saad, since you've been on the top lead from Lebanon's side, When do you expect that to happen? When will it be signed?

Elias Bou Saab: We expect that this will take place during the last week of October, that both sides would be able to sign those letters. And then once we sign those letters, we are not signing an agreement or international agreement between two countries. What we are doing basically is We're depositing a letter with the American side. The Israelis are doing the same thing. They're sending a letter as well confirming the acceptance of the offer of the United States. So each country individually would send those letters to the United States and then we go deposit them under the flag of the United Nation in Nakura. hand it to the American side and then give a copy and deposit a copy with the United Nations. This is the deal that took place because we cannot, two countries that don't recognize each other, they can't have a treaty, international treaty with each other. We can't have an agreement or international agreement with each other. So that was the solution found and I think during the last week of October that exchange will take place.

Ghadi Francis: There's another question that is circulating and I'm sure you've answered it but we also want to ask for our viewers. What will Lebanon benefit from this? First of all, Lebanon is going through a reading of how much it will benefit, how long it will take us to benefit.

Elias Bou Saab: We will start seeing results, not through extracting gas immediately, of course, that would take some time. But once you have a company like Total starting the work and moving into Lebanon, and then we have the stability, and then we have the embargo that was forced on Lebanon by the international community. That will be lifted? Exactly. When the President of the United States spoke with the Lebanese President, he told him, This is going to bring to Lebanon prosperity. We're going to see more and more international investment in this country, and what we hope to do next is to start enforcing and working to finalize the reform laws that we are working on in the parliament, elect a new president, select a new government that is ready and able to work with the international community and the Arab world, and basically start taking off. We have set the ground for a new chapter in Lebanon, and that chapter will start fresh. We will have potential wealth in our sea, and the IMF will work with us with a different mentality at this point. So we will start seeing results, but slowly we will be reaching where we need to reach to find a full recovery for the economic situation that we're in.

Ghadi Francis: Since it resonates that powerful, how will it change or what would it affect the political status quo in both countries? As we all know now, there are voices. The ex-PM in Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, has been really furious about that deal. Also other political entities inside Israel have been furious. Inside Lebanon, there are some voices as well. But how will it affect the coming government in Lebanon and in Israel?

Elias Bou Saab: In Lebanon I don't think we have any major opposition for this agreement. You may hear voices whether they're individuals, civilians that are experts, some claim to be experts, some give themselves titles that probably if you search in their background you'll know that they don't earn it, I don't know where they brought it from. But also you have members of the parliament who wants to play a popular game, and they start talking about the opposition and why this deal should not take place. And some of them, behind the scenes, they come to tell us, we have the only hope by you signing this deal, but we have to take that position publicly.

Ghadi Francis: Do you think it's the same? Do you think it's an electoral pitch in Israel as well?

Elias Bou Saab: This is for Lebanon. As for Israel, I believe, yes. I believe Netanyahu is trying to score in the election, in the upcoming election of Israel. Had he been in this position, he would have done the same. Because according to the Israeli Prime Minister, he wants to secure that the economy remains strong and untouched. He wants to secure stability and wants to make sure that there is no threat, you know, in terms of, you know, serious like, you know, threat that may affect the stability or the safety of the people that are living in the northern part of Israel. What more can secure this? than a stable border where Lebanon is really extracting gas from our side and the Israelis are extracting gas from their side. We want to make sure it's stable and we are working fine to produce what we need to produce for the stability of Lebanon and for the future and the prosperity of Lebanon and they will be doing the same. What is the alternative to that? War? Is that what they're looking for? That's why I think this is all due to the election when the election finishes and it ends you will see that they have no choice but to go back even if they stop it and they don't sign it they'll have no choice but going back to this deal Lebanon is not going to accept less than that and Lebanon have the means to make sure that there will be no gas extracted from the other side if Lebanon is not extracting gas from our side for that reason that deal took place and I want to end by saying one thing The alternative to that is a catastrophe for the region. They know that, and we know that. So we're looking at the positive side, and that's why it's a game changer.

Ghadi Francis: But then all this that you have very eloquently described, it makes it really possible to ask, is this one step further towards normalization of ties, peace, one way or another?

Elias Bou Saab: No. We made sure that this deal is orchestrated in a way that will not allow even to hint that this could be normalization for the political relationship.

Ghadi Francis: We have been facing that backlash, though.

Elias Bou Saab: First of all, it's something we believe in. So we're not like we were going to do something and we faced someone. Probably we were more advanced than them in making sure that that's not the case. Some are talking about it, but deep down they want something the opposite. In our opinion, we should not be talking about that until the Palestinian situation is resolved. And until that time, Lebanon will never be involved in discussions, nor will be moving towards normalization or recognition of the State of Israel.

Ghadi Francis: You answered what I wanted to ask. So let me finalize by asking a really valid question. At that point, we have seen you as a Minister of National Defense, as a Deputy of the Speaker of the Parliament. But this is a totally diplomatic role you have just played. Is this the end of it, or is it just the beginning of a new phase for your political scene in Lebanon, for your political role in Lebanon? Are you the man that can speak to both the Americans and the Lebanese? that can do this kind of mediation? I can talk to the Israelis and that's... Through the Americans?

Elias Bou Saab: No. The Americans are the... They were like the... You know, doing the brokerage, if you wish, between us and the Israelis. So we will not have direct negotiation or talk to the Israelis. Lebanon officially, according to our constitution, Israel is an enemy, and we cannot be having any kind of a relationship or normalization, as I explained before, with Israel. So yes, I can talk to the Americans, I can talk to the Syrians, I can talk to the Arab world, but I speak to them as Lebanese, and they know that. In the negotiations that took place, we had tough days and tough hours. The past week has been extremely tough and we were working more than 18 to 20 hours a day. We've reached a point where we called it off and we said this negotiation is over. And we were stuck on one sentence, not even a full sentence, two words or one word in a sentence for 36 hours of negotiation.

Ghadi Francis: May we ask what these two words were?

Elias Bou Saab: I will leave it for another time, but it was something that had to do with the paragraph that deals with the role of Total in the agreement that Total and Israel have signed, in that paragraph in particular. And many times the American mediator will tell me, you know, that's it, I'm calling it off. And I say, fine, we're calling it off. And then we find a way, a creative way to talk again. It has not been easy, but I can tell you, we negotiated everything. And when I concluded, the best thing that I will remember after so many days, days and nights, is when I told him, at least I feel good because I did what is best for my country. And that's what really, how we ended the negotiations.