Donald Freeman - Conversation and Autobiography Reading (2018)

Janice Eamon Williams: Good evening, everyone.

Donald Freeman: Good evening.

Janice Eamon Williams: I want to thank everyone for coming out on this very cold Cleveland evening for our latest conversation. And on behalf of— to our co-directors, our administrators and the Social Justice Institute collective, and the Alumni Association of Case Western Reserve University, I want to welcome you to the Alumni House. My name is Janice Eamon Williams. I'm a staff member here at the university. I'm an alumna, and I'm a member of the leadership Collective. The Social Justice Institute strives to create a just world. We examine the root causes of social injustice and develop innovative solutions by supporting creative research, scholarship and pedagogy, social justice leaders on and off campus, and relationships within the university and into the community. We work to eradicate all systems of oppression by redistributing and expanding resources and opportunities. While exalting human dignity. We believe in action, community involvement, education, empathetic relationships, equity, human dignity, inclusiveness, and intergenerational collaboration. And one of the things that I think that the Social Justice Institute really does well is to bring together the warriors of social justice together for thoughtful conversations that usually result in some type of action. We are really pleased this evening I'm pleased to welcome an alumnus back to campus, Mr. Donald Freeman, who is a graduate of Western Reserve and has a degree in history from the university. And I would like for his soulmate, Ms. Norma Jean Freeman, to come up and introduce him. Mrs. Freeman is a lifelong resident of Cleveland and a 50-plus-year resident of the community of Glenville. She is a graduate of John Adams High School and Fisk University. And she is a longtime health educator with the Cleveland Municipal School District and the Cleveland Museum of Health Education. And more importantly for me, she is one of our community moms. We call her Mama Norma, Miss Norma, Mother Freeman, because not only have she and Mr. Freeman raised 3 sons, but they raised, collectively, at least 1,000 of us.

Donald Freeman: Yes.

Janice Eamon Williams: from around the city of Cleveland. So, if you would, introduce your soulmate.

Donald Freeman: Thank you, Mom.

Norma Jean Freeman: Thank you so much for coming out tonight. I was really taken aback when a request was made that I introduce My husband. And I think that's one of the hardest introductions I've been asked to do, because at this point in our lives, I think I know him better than anyone on the planet. And like all of us, he is a multifaceted man. So I pondered what parts What will you talk about? What will I talk about? And I decided that I would try to give a composite. And one of the ways I'm going to attempt to do this is to share with you the first time I met him. I was 12 years old, had just graduated from Kinsman Elementary School.

Donald Freeman: Yeah.

Norma Jean Freeman: Had gotten a special transfer to go to Audubon Junior High School. And I had to take the number 14 bus to go up to East Boulevard to get to Audubon. And I remember like it was yesterday. I got on the bus. And of course, I looked around, and I saw this little boy who I found out later was also 12 years old, who had gotten a transfer to go to Alexander Hamilton. And he had grown up, as we used to say, down the way, because I lived way up on 72nd Street, and he lived down in the projects.

Speaker 4: Right.

Norma Jean Freeman: So I looked over, and I was just stunned. I had never seen anyone my age look so serious. And he seemed to be totally oblivious of his surroundings. So it was my first time encountering a person Who appeared to be here, but not of this place. He was in the world, but not of it. And I knew this at 12. So I was intrigued. I just could not believe it. And that was the moment that our lives became intertwined. And for those of you who Mm-hmm. You know, that was about 67 years ago. And periodically, throughout our lives, we would come together. I went to John Adams. He went to John Adams. And when he was in high school, I became concerned about him. Because it was obvious that whatever slots are allocated to us in this society, he did not fit. And it became apparent to me that he was not going to try to fit. So I thought, I don't know if he's going to end up in prison. I'm being very serious. Or if he will have just a short time here on this earth, because he was so different. To give you an example, he used to walk around John Adams High School with a little— we used to have these little record players under his arm, and he'd have maybe Charlie Parker or Miles or Dizzy in his albums in the other arm. And he's walking through the halls looking for an empty room So he could sneak in there and play his music. So I was drawn to him, but I was fearful. Didn't want to get entangled with some way-out— you know what I'm saying? —kind of person, because I was very centered on going to college. I wanted to be a doctor. And knowing me, I'm not a halfway person. You know, I'm all the way there, or I'm not there at all. And I figured it would be very dangerous to be all the way there with Donald Freeman. So, I kept my distance. And after high school, he obviously came here, and I went to Fisk. And after college, We began to see each other more often. But the thing about Donald that still I find intriguing is that he has such a clear sense of purpose. He had it very, very early.

Donald Freeman: Yeah.

Norma Jean Freeman: And we dated for a while. And he told me one day that it's important for you to understand that nothing and no one comes before my commitment to the liberation of our people and all oppressed people on the planet. When he told me that, I fell in love with Donald Freeman. It was just— it was just so remarkable to me. And I understood what he was saying. He was saying a number of things. I kind of like you. You know, he was saying that, too.

Donald Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Norma Jean Freeman: And this may be long-term. And I just want you to know, How it will go, if you will become involved with me. So, he was a principled man, too. And I understood that. And I felt, this is the man that I would like to join my life with his life on this Earth journey, because I knew, first of all, it wouldn't be boring.

Donald Freeman: Right.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Norma Jean Freeman: And I'll be very honest with you. Going to Fisk University helped me to become clear that the usual— and I'm not trying to diminish other people's choices, but for me, it became clear that I would never be satisfied just being a bourgeois middle-class wife of some wonderful professional. He would have probably been a professor. Or if he had been born 10 years earlier, I told him, he would have been a minister, you know? Because at his core, he is a very, very spiritual man.

Donald Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Norma Jean Freeman: And I think that is what totally caused me to say, this is who I want to live my life with.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Norma Jean Freeman: And create something that you're not supposed to be able to do if you're a member of a group who happens to be oppressed. You can live in a certain way, with dignity and pride, and not be limited by the values of this society that says you have to have a certain amount of education, you have to have a certain amount of financial resources, you have to live in a —certain place. No, you don't. We, together, decided we would choose the path we would travel in this life, in spite of what others say, in spite of the little area That is allocated to someone like him and myself. We were clearly not supposed to make the choices we made. We just happened to both be very mental, and school was easy, but that was it. And we had parents who brought us up in a way that you could develop a persona that was pleasing. And nonthreatening to other people, so you got indoors.

Donald Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Norma Jean Freeman: But we knew that it was important for us to help those of our people who were just as deserving as I and Donald to the things that we were exposed to. That it didn't matter. And we chose to live in an area that most people said we were crazy, that our children would become drug addicts, thugs. Some of their very best friends are right here in the room. They know what I'm talking about. Come from magnificent families. They are my children.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Norma Jean Freeman: Just like my birth children. My husband and I used to have sessions in our home for them and their peers and taught them just as he would have taught them at a college. So, this is my way of saying I'm not going to tell his story. He'll do that. But I think we have been blessed In ways that most people probably could not imagine. It's been a magnificent life. If I had it to do it again, I would. Sometimes, and he will tell you, maybe 3 or 4 times a week, I'll look at him and say, Donald, do you still love me? And sometimes he used to look at me like, what is wrong with her? You know?

Donald Freeman: Why?

Norma Jean Freeman: When men say, I'm here, I mean, come on. Why are you asking? But there are many reasons that you stay once you're here. So, I think he knows why I ask him, because every day should be a new beginning, a new commitment. And as we grow, we should grow in love. And our family has striven to be An example of what I think a family is meant to be. It's a testing ground. It's where you learn how to love one another unconditionally. I'm no day at the beach, trust me. He's no day at the beach. We're very strong-willed people, both of us. So we had to learn how. To rub against those sharp edges and kind of round them out a little bit and allow one another's space to be who the Creator meant us to be, not somebody's homemaker or somebody's breadwinner, but the essence of who we are, to share that, to develop it.

Donald Freeman: Thank you.

Norma Jean Freeman: and to change all of this. So with that, I'd like to introduce my life partner. I want to thank him because he created the context for me to grow in ways that I would not have without him. Donald Freeman.

Donald Freeman: Thank you. Honey, thanks for your profound introduction.

Janice Eamon Williams: Thank you.

Donald Freeman: And I further want to thank the creator of the universe with blessing me to still be on the planet and able to come before you. As I approach my 80th birthday, which will be on February 16th, 2019, if I'm still on this planet at that time. Reflections of a Resolute Radical. The definition of reflections: firmly determined and unwavering. In that regard, I was blessed, now many years ago, to pray to the Creator to never, ever allow my commitment to the total liberation It is not in the interest of all oppressed peoples on the planet Earth, especially people of African— especially people of African descent in the United States of America, to ever become contingent on what others do or don't do. In that regard, It was the will of the Creator that I be born, this incarnation, on February 16th, 1939, in Cleveland. And I grew up in what was called the projects, the bricks—

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: Cleveland Metropolitan Housing Authority, first on 40th Street near Scovel, right down the street From where the Stokes brothers, Carl B. and Louis, were growing up on Case Court. And then I moved to 49th and Althwaite in the bricks. And then later to Glenville, to where I graduated from Glenville High School in 1957. And then went on to Case Western Reserve University, where I graduated.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Donald Freeman: In 1961, with a Bachelor of Arts degree and a major in history. While at Case Western Reserve University, in the second semester of my junior year, I participated in a significant conference of the student The Democratic Society. The Democratic Society, SDS, at University of Michigan in Ann Arbor the weekend of May 1st, 1960, at which time I met Michael Harrington and an African American brother of significance, Norman Hill. They influenced me, especially Norman Neal, to join the Socialist Party, Socialist Democratic Federation. And then, a little subsequent to that, I joined the Students for Democratic Society, being one of its few African American members. Then, later, in terms of the summer of 1960, I participated in a National Student Association Congress in Minneapolis, Minnesota, by which time I had become convinced that we had to move beyond just sit-ins and address ourselves to a major aspect of our oppression in the United States, and that was the disenfranchisement of African Americans in the South, whereby they could not vote. So we had to gain voting rights. So that's what I began advocating in the summer of 1960, first at the National Association Congress in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And then, subsequent to that, I was invited, as a member of SDS, to participate in the first significant national conference of the Students' Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC, in Atlanta, Georgia, in October— in fact, October 14th to 16th, 1960.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: At which time I first met Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who was the keynote speaker at that particular conference. And there, I also advocated the need to move beyond sit-ins and focus on gaining our voting rights in the South. Also at that conference, I met a brother from Mississippi whose name was Amzie Moore, and he was involved with Bob Moses, a significant member of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And right after that conference, I was involved in another conference at Antioch College, where I met Charles McDew, who would soon become the chairman of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And then, subsequent to that, Chuck McDew and Bob Moses were arrested in Mississippi.

Norma Jean Freeman: Wow.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Donald Freeman: For beginning the struggle to gain voting rights in Mississippi and the South. Now, right after I grad— rather, before I graduated from Case Western Reserve University, Patrice Lumumba was assassinated with CIA complicity. January 17th, 1960— rather, in January, Mm-hmm. Of 1961. And then shortly after that, there was a demonstration condemning CIA complicity in the death of Patrice Lumumba at the United Nations. And one of the participants in that demonstration was a person who was very significant that I met later. His name was Calvin Hicks. A little before my departure from Case Western Reserve University, I met the person who essentially was the successor of Eugene V. Debs as the leader of the Socialist Party. His name is Norman Thomas. And shortly after I had an opportunity to meet him, I participated in what became, for me, a very significant conference at Workmen's Circle, or discussion at Workmen's Circle, in the Cleveland Heights area, which there was a very heated discussion about the revolution in Cuba and Castro. And I disagreed with the position of the Socialist Party, of which I was a member, in terms of them being critical Mm-hmm. Of Castro, whom I supported. Then, after I graduated from Case Western Reserve University, I participated in another National Association— National Student Association Congress in Wisconsin University in Madison, Wisconsin, in August of 1961. At which time I met 3 people of significance to me. One, Max Stanford, who was a Central State University student. Larry Landry, who was a student at University of Chicago and graduate— studying graduate department of sociology there. And then another significant person, Martin Scolar, who— Scolar. Was working on his doctorate in history at the University of Wisconsin and was also one of the editors of a radical publication known as Studies on the Left. After meeting them, I essentially returned to Cleveland and began my teaching career at Case— at Kennard Junior High School, first teaching English and then And in December of that year, 1961, I went to visit Max Stanford in Philadelphia. And also, I essentially was involved with Students for Democratic Society and left Philadelphia and went to a retreat in— Vermont. Ann Arbor, Michigan, in terms of the holiday period then. And by then, I had become influenced by nationalists in terms of the Nation of Islam. And I expressed my interest in nationalism to the students of Democratic Society, which did not sit well. Because they were not nationalists. So subsequent to that, I essentially, during one of my breaks from teaching, I wound up in New York, where I essentially met a brother named Robert Gore, who was a progressive brother in— In New York. Congress on Racial Equality. And I also met at that time Malcolm X. I always, when I went to New York, hung out with Malcolm X's secretary, in terms of the secretary of the Temple Number 7 at 116th and Lenox in Harlem. He was like a big brother to me. We grew up in the bricks together, in the projects. He became a jazz musician, but later converted— was converted to the Nation of Islam, and then became secretary of the Temple Number 7 in Harlem. And his name was Maseo, then Maseo X. And then, at a Friday meeting in— at the temple, Number 7 in Harlem. He introduced me to Malcolm X. So that's how my relationship with Malcolm X began. Now, in the summer of 1962, I returned to Madison, Wisconsin, in June and stayed at Martin Scolard's place, where I read— I'm sorry? A very significant article called Revolutionary Nationalism and the African American in his publication Studies on the Left. And that article had a tremendous influence on me in terms of me becoming a revolutionary nationalist and therefore beginning to make the break from The Students for Democratic Society, which had a very significant conference in Huron, Michigan, that I was not able to attend because of my teaching responsibilities in Cleveland. So, after I left Madison, Wisconsin, I— thanks to Martin Scolar, he had mentioned that I should contact a brother named Donald Sykes, who was a teacher in Chicago, which I did, once I got to Chicago. And Donald Sykes introduced me to another significant brother, who was also a teacher in Chicago, whose name was Thomas Higginbotham.

Janice Eamon Williams: Yes.

Donald Freeman: Essentially, what I was doing at that time was moving from city to city to strive to hook up with brothers who thought the way I did. In terms of revolutionary nationalist orientation. And thanks to Donald Sykes and Thomas Higginbotham, I was able to begin that process in Chicago. Then I moved on. On the way back to Cleveland, I stopped in Detroit and participated in a meeting of angry and indignant African American members of the United Auto Workers, who were not pleased with how United Auto Workers was treating African Americans. And in relationship to that, I became aware of a brother named John Watson, whom I met in Detroit before going back to Cleveland to be the best man at a wedding of a friend of mine, at which time I basically fled Cleveland and moved on the hookup with Max Stanford. We would meet every afternoon in H&H and formulated the foundation for RAM, the Revolutionary Action Movement, that week, which RAM got off the ground early 1963. But we formulated the foundation for it during that week. I was a member of the Philadelphia chapter of the Freedom Riders. And then, of course, one— well, the Saturday of that week, Saturday night, I had to sleep in the alley again. And the police came in there and basically chased me out of there. And I said, I got to get out of here. I got to get out and dodge. So I went to New York.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: And soon after arriving in New York, I went to Bob Gore's apartment. And he wasn't in town, but who should be at his apartment but Stokely Carmichael, Kwame Ture. So I met Stokely Carmichael at Bob Gore's East Village apartment in early August of 1962. Now, essentially, that's also the time Where I was able to hook up with Calvin Hicks. I found out where he was located in the East Village on Avenue C, where Charlie Parker used to live.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: So I had an opportunity to begin my relationship with Calvin Hicks, who was an aspiring writer as well as an African American radical. And then, After that, I left New York and stopped in Ohio State University for another Congress of the National Association— the National Student Association, at which time I hooked up with Michael Harrington again. And that essentially, that conference, or Congress of the National Student Association, ended my relationship with the students— Student Nonviolent— the Student Democratic Society. That's when my relationship with SDS ended, which meant that when I returned to Cleveland in my teaching position in September of 1962 as a revolutionary nationalist, I became involved in terms of October of 1962. October of 1962. And establishing what became known as the Afro-American Institute, which was the first Black nationalist organization in Cleveland since the Universal Negro Improvement Association, UNIA, of Marcus Garvey and the Nation of Islam.

Janice Eamon Williams: Thank you.

Donald Freeman: And then, soon after that, I returned to New York, at which time I got into a very heated argument, as well as discussion, with Stokely Carmichael's sidekick, Courtland Cox— they were very close together— and Norman Hill, in terms of me advocating that SNCC move in the direction of RAM in terms of having what I was influenced by Lenin to regard as necessary, and that is a vanguard of leaders to provide leadership for African Americans. But that didn't sit well with them. They thought that was too elitist to have a leadership corps to more or less provide leadership in our struggle. And then at that time, thanks to Calvin Hicks, I met a person who became very significant as I move on. His name was Rolland Snellings. He was an aspiring writer like Calvin Hicks.

Janice Eamon Williams: Right.

Donald Freeman: He was primarily a poet. So I met him at that time. And also, thanks to Calvin Hicks, I met what was then Leroy Jones, who changed his name, of course, to Amiri Baraka. So I met both of them through Calvin Hicks while I was in New York at that time. Now, when I got back to Cleveland, New Year's Day— and really New Year's night—

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Donald Freeman: January 1st, 1963. I went out to the Jazz Temple and essentially connected with Max Roach, whom Max Stanford had developed contact with and mentioned my name to Max Roach. So when I got to Cleveland, I hooked up with him. And I strived to work out an arrangement. Whereby Max Roach would speak at a meeting of the Afro-American Institute about Black culture and arts. However, unfortunately, he got into difficulties with the owner of the Jazz Temple, and therefore Winston Willis. And essentially, he went on back to New York and Didn't make the meeting that I had set up for him in terms of the Afro-American Institute's headquarters on Cedar, 84th and Cedar, the Hubbard Memorial Hall. And I had an article in The Call and Post, et cetera, about it, but he wasn't able to make it. Then, subsequent to that— I'm pausing because what I'm about to express was essentially a very significant political event in Cleveland, whereby— it was March 7th, 1963, whereby a very controversial African American journalist named William Worthy, who had been censured by The Kennedy administration for going to Cuba. And of course, at that time, it was pretty much illegal to go to Cuba. And as a result of that, he was hounded by then-Attorney General Robert Kennedy. In fact, Robert Kennedy really tried to do a number on him. But anyway, he— we invited him to— we meaning the—

Norma Jean Freeman: You mean the—

Donald Freeman: Socialist Workers Party and the Afro-American Institute invited him to come to Cleveland to speak March 7th, 1963. Well, after returning— well, before I returned to Cleveland, I stopped in New York, and essentially I met a person who became significant. His name was Walter Bowe, and he had been involved in supporting Mae Mallory relative to her being arrested for her involvement with Robert F. Williams. And also, while in New York at that time, I spent time with Max Roach. And his wife, Abbey Lincoln, at their apartment in New York, where, in the same apartment, lived Daniel Watts, who was the editor of a revolutionary— or a nationalist magazine called The Liberator. And Daniel Watts invited me to write an article on the Afro-American Institute.

Norma Jean Freeman: Right.

Donald Freeman: Here in Cleveland, in Liberator, which was published in the Liberator in June of 1963. Now, upon returning to Cleveland, I essentially had an opportunity, shortly after returning to Cleveland, to go to Detroit. Detroit. Where, thanks to John Watson, who I had met the previous summer, he introduced me to an organization that he was involved in called Uhuru, which was the revolutionary nationalist-oriented organization in Detroit. And at that time in Cleveland, I was developing something similar to Uhuru in Detroit, in terms of the Afro-American Institute, where we had what was known as a Soul Circle. Mm-hmm. Well, in terms of the progression of my involvement in 1963, I returned to Detroit in June of 1963, and whereby I had an opportunity to travel with certain brothers from Uhuru to Chicago, where I introduced them to Thomas Higginbotham. And that began a relationship between brothers from Detroit and Chicago in terms of what was developing as the network of the Revolutionary Action Movement.

Norma Jean Freeman: Right.

Donald Freeman: Then, in the— later in June, I returned to New York, at which time I met with Roland Snellings, the poet, and he made a commitment to become a member of RAM. Then, after that, I essentially went to Chicago around—

Norma Jean Freeman: 1968.

Donald Freeman: July 4th, with Max Stanford and Stan Daniels, who were involved in RAM, in Philadelphia. And we met with brothers in Chicago that I knew, in terms of Thomas Sinky Botham, and also met a brother there named John Bracey Jr. Now, what occurred while we were in Chicago On July 4th, Max Stanford and Stan Daniels and John Bracey from Chicago and others protested at the July 4th event of the National Baptist Convention in a park in Chicago. At which they, in terms of their protests, became so intense and so involved that they ran the president of the National Baptist Convention, Dr. J.H. Jackson, and the mayor of Chicago, Richard Daley, out of the park in Chicago.

Norma Jean Freeman: Wow.

Janice Eamon Williams: Yeah.

Donald Freeman: —in terms of the intensity of their demonstration. And that began the development of the Chicago wing of RAM. Now, moving back to Cleveland, in July of 1963, there was a young brother named James Law. who essentially was brutalized by the police because they thought that he was being insubordinate and indignant, although he had a problem hearing what the police were saying to him. When I found out about this from the call and post, I went to his home and met with him and his family. And subsequent to that, Yes, sir. I, a brother named Don Sharp, who was an associate of the Afro-American Institute, and another brother, Norman Perry, we sat in Mayor Ralph Loker's office down at City Hall and indicated that we would not leave his office until he conferred with us about police brutality.

Janice Eamon Williams: Yes.

Donald Freeman: —in Cleveland, which is what we did. Of course, what we conferred about with Ralph Loker in July of 1963, we're still dealing with today, in terms of police brutality in Cleveland and around the United States. In August of 1963, '63. We essentially had a conference of RAM, the Revolutionary Action Movement, here in Cleveland. And we, in terms of that conference, we decided that we would take a low profile at the August 28th meeting of the March on Washington. And relative to that, we were critical, because we didn't really regard it as a march on Washington, but a parade in Washington. In fact, we were so critical of the parade in Washington that we left the parade before Dr. Martin Luther King gave his I Have a Dream speech. And after leaving there, essentially, I left for Columbus, Ohio. OK. To represent RAM at a conference of the Pan-African Students Association, where I presented the anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist, and anti-racist ideology and orientation of RAM, the Revolutionary Action Movement, which definitely impressed Yes. —certain Africans, especially Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and Oba Wale from Nigeria, who I related to further after that particular conference. In terms of the aftermath of going to that conference, I returned to Cleveland. And in specifically September 22nd, 1963, which was a week after the bombing and death of 4— the bombing of a church in Birmingham and the death of 4 teenage girls in Birmingham, which is—

Speaker 5: Birmingham.

Donald Freeman: September 15th. On September 22nd, outside of Euclid Beach Park, where the Democrats, County Democratic Organization, was having its annual steer roast, we picketed at the entrance of the—

Janice Eamon Williams: Park.

Donald Freeman: Park, where then-Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson had to enter in a limousine. And we made sure that he didn't enter without seeing our placards and signs condemning what had happened in Birmingham and also racism and apartheid in the United States, and our opposition —to United States military aggression in Vietnam. Then, soon after that, I participated in the Grassroots Conference in Detroit, which was a conference of activists and militants from throughout the Midwest and Northeast of the United States. Mm-hmm. Black Nationalist Conference, or any conference. And at that time, I participated and impressed the organizers of that conference to the extent where one of them, Grace Boggs, asked me if I would be willing to make a presentation at the final session. of the conference on a Sunday in around the middle of November of 1963. I indicated that I'd be willing, but who should I see when I arrived at the church where that particular session was to be held but Malcolm X? So what occurred is that I spoke And he spoke just before Malcolm X came to the podium and gave what was recorded as the Message at the Grassroots, one of his most dynamic presentations, which also was one of his last, probably his last major presentation before—

Norma Jean Freeman: Assassination.

Donald Freeman: He was censured by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad after the death of President John Kennedy for having said, chickens have come home to roost.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: So, essentially, that resulted in him, after being censured, resigning from the Nation of Islam. And essentially, our relationship became closer, mine and Malcolm X's, after he left the Nation of Islam. Now, in terms of December of 1963, I returned to New York At which time I had an opportunity to go out to Astoria in the borough of Queens and meet with the son of Marcus Garvey, Julius Garvey, at his home. And we had a very productive conference. So productive that Julius gave me a personal copy of the book that his mother, Amy Jacques Garvey, had written entitled Garvey and Garveyism. So I had an opportunity to meet the son of Marcus Garvey. Then, I returned to New York again in March of 1964, at which time I met Malcolm X at his headquarters in the Hotel Theresa in Harlem. And we had A very rewarding discussion and conference, so rewarding that he asked me to introduce him at the Easter, March 29th, 1964 meeting that he spoke at, at the Audubon Ballroom. So essentially, as I said, our relationship had gotten closer. Now, while I was still in New York, he came— Malcolm X came to Cleveland to Cory Methodist Church, and on April 3rd, 1964, gave a very significant presentation known as The Ballot or the Bullet. And he followed that up with another Sequel to that, in terms of the Ballad Bullet, on Sunday, April 12th, 1964, in Detroit, at which I had an opportunity, thanks to a jazz musician, tenor saxophonist, who went up there. I got a ride with him up to Detroit to hear Malcolm X at that time. And then, after the presentation, After his presentation, Malcolm X and I conferred privately, at which time he informed me that he was about to make the Hajj to Mecca, thanks to his sister, Emma, providing the funds. And essentially, that is the time at which he became El-Hajj.

Norma Jean Freeman: El-Hajj.

Donald Freeman: Malik El-Shabazz. Now, right after that, I was involved in essentially developing a conference of African Americans, activists, at Fisk University, May 1st to May 3rd, thanks to the Afro-American Student Movement, which RAM was very essential in formulating. And at that time, at that conference, we espoused revolutionary nationalism in opposition to both bourgeois reformism, which is what we called the civil rights movement, and bourgeois nationalism. And we also advocated that African American revolutionary nationalists constitute a vanguard in striving to bring about what we perceived as a Pan-African socialist revolution in the United States in terms of African Americans. Well, right after that conference, in— Nashville, May 3rd, 1964. Max Stanford and Roland Snellings, thanks to John Lewis, who didn't agree with RAM but was amenable to Max Stanford and Roland Snellings going to Mississippi and working with SNCC Staff in Mississippi, at which time Roland was teaching in a freedom school in terms of African and African American history, and Max Stafford essentially taught politics and political science. And then soon after that, we had a conference in Detroit in which we further organized The Revolutionary Action Movement into a national organization. And relative to that, I returned to Chicago in July of 1964, at which time RAM was was exerting a revolutionary nationalist influence on SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, whether it— whereby SNCC had become critical of its nonviolent orientation and was moving towards self-defense and the orientation of RAM. So we were influencing the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Well, essentially, when I returned to Chicago, I had an opportunity to meet and interact with Shamiri, Ikukwu and Obowale, and through them met Jamal— Ali. Ali, who— from Zanzibar, in Jackson Park in Chicago, and developed a relationship with them. Then, in August of 1964, I returned to New York, at which time I Met at the Kennedy International Airport. Ram— Ram's— Max Stanford, who was returning from Cuba, having conferred with Robert Williams in Cuba.

Norma Jean Freeman: Right. Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: And also returning with Max Stanford were brothers from Uhuru and a brother from Oakland, California, whose name was Ernie Allen, who was connected with Bobby Seale. And through this rendezvous, I had an opportunity to confer extensively with Ernie Allen about Ram's orientation, which, in returning to Oakland, he shared with Bobby Seale. And that's how Ram influenced the Black Panther Party prior to its formation.

Janice Eamon Williams: Right.

Donald Freeman: In other words, this was in 1964, 2 years prior to it. the formation of the Black Panther Party in October of 1966. So that's how RAM was influencing not only SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, but also the Black Panther Party prior to its formation. And in returning to Cleveland, one of the things that was published was the fall issue of Black America, in which the article that I had written about the conference in May in Nashville was included. It was entitled Black Youth and African American Liberation, and it also expressed Congratulations. Our congratulations to the Viet Cong in Vietnam in terms of their liberation struggle against U.S. imperialism in Vietnam. Now, that fall, in October of 1964, a very controversial article written by William Worthy was published in Esquire magazine in October of 1964. It was entitled Red Chinese American Negroes.

Janice Eamon Williams: Oh.

Donald Freeman: Now, this article so outraged James Sebasz, the main lieutenant of Malcolm X that when I was in New York around the time that the article was published in October 1964, outside the entrance of the Hotel Theresa in Harlem, he saw me and he said, hey, Don, what were you really trying to do, get us all killed? So what happened? Was that after, let's say, the beginning of 1964, a series of events related to James Shabazz's outrage occurred. First, February 8th, El-Hajj Malik Shabazz, Malcolm X, was allowed to speak in London, but he was not allowed to speak in France February 9th, 1965, the following day. And then soon after he returned to New York, His house— home in East Elmhurst, New York, was firebombed, February 14th, 1965. Now, a couple days later, Walter Bowe, Robert Kaya and Khalil Syed, who were related To Ram were arrested along with a French-Canadian radical named Michel Duclos for allegedly plotting to bomb the Statue of Liberty.

Janice Eamon Williams: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: This was February 16th, 1965. About a week later, Sunday, February 21st, 1965, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, Malcolm X, was assassinated at Audubon Ballroom in Harlem. Now, immediately following his having been assassinated, Assassinated. I got a call the next day, February 22nd, 1965, from Roland Snellings in New York. And he called me in Cleveland and said, watch out, Don. They're after you. Watch out. Lo and behold, the same day that Malcolm X was buried outside of New York, Saturday, February 27th, 1965, I was plastered all over the front page of the Plain Dealer in terms of an article. Which was entitled Teacher, Meaning Me, Tied to Negro Rebels.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: That resulted in me being called by the new superintendent of the Cleveland Public— Cleveland City School District, Paul Briggs, to his office on Monday. March 1st, 1965.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: At which time, after intense and extensive interrogation, he decided to suspend me as a teacher in the Cleveland City School District. And although they acknowledged that I was an excellent teacher, They made the decision to suspend me on March 2nd, 1965. And shortly thereafter, I made a presentation in the Glenville area along with James Shabazz, Malcolm X's main lieutenant. And the anti-imperialist, anti-racist, and anti-capitalist nature of my presentation caused the Cleveland Board of Education to essentially vote to fire me on April 15th— April 17th— not April, but March 17th, 1968. And you were fired for what? 1965, pending a hearing, which they had to have in order to make my— them firing me official and permanent, which occurred on April 15th, 1965, at which time Ralph McAllister, who essentially Wanted to put me in slam, as well as fire me, made a question to me, which he used as a basis for alleging perjury, in terms of my answer to the question as to whether I had participated in the March 1st to 3rd meeting in Nashville, Tennessee.

Norma Jean Freeman: That's right.

Donald Freeman: Tennessee the previous spring. And, of course, what happened is that after firing me on March the 27th— no, April the 27th, 1965, he, the chief of police in Cleveland, Richard Wagner, and the county prosecutor, John Corrigan, indicted me for 2 alleged counts of perjury in terms of the county grand jury. And if convicted, I would have served 2 to 20 years in the slam in terms of the 2 counts. So after that, Essentially, there was what some of us call the Huff Rebellion, not the Huff Riot, which essentially I want to stress, and then in terms of the interest of time, not being able to go further with that, was very significant in terms of the establishment Or the power structure in Cleveland becoming amenable to Carl B. Stokes being elected as mayor in November of 1967, because after the Hough Rebellion, the elite here in Cleveland decided that Ralph Loker, the mayor, needed to go. He was ineffective.

Norma Jean Freeman: Right.

Donald Freeman: So this meant that they supported, a number of them, Carl B. Stokes to become mayor of Cleveland in November of 1967. Well, in conjunction with the aftermath of the HUP rebellion, a position of neighborhood worker It became open at League Park Center because the person, Jesse Bogan, who was occupying that position, thanks to the Huff Rebellion, was offered a better-paying position at another location that essentially was open to respond to the Huff Rebellion. So in that way, the Huff Rebellion was a factor in terms of me being invited to apply for the position of neighborhood worker at Leak Park Center on— over the late afternoon of August 22nd, 1966. Well, that night, there was a meeting at my home at which I met With Ahmed Evans, who obviously was the leader of the Glenville Shootout, and Drew King Jr.— the 3rd— Drew King III, who was the son of a prominent African American physician in Cleveland. And during the meeting, my pregnant soulmate started having labor pains.

Janice Eamon Williams: And?

Donald Freeman: She tried to hold on until the end of the meeting, but that wasn't feasible. So she hollered out the bedroom, got to go! We got to go to the hospital! So, essentially, we had to interrupt the meeting. And if you buy my book, you'll find out what Ahmed Evans said as we left my home. Now, you mentioned that you were a member of the Black Panthers. Moving fast forward, after my son was born that night of August the 22nd, 1966, later, although I thought it wasn't going to materialize, I was appointed Neighborhood worker, or hired as neighborhood worker at Lee Park Center, at which time I essentially, before I could get myself really situated there at Lee Park Center in that position, The trial to convict me for 2 alleged counts of perjury occurred in Cleveland beginning January 17th, 1967. And miraculously, I—

Janice Eamon Williams: Oh, God.

Donald Freeman: Stanley Tolliver was my attorney. And miraculously, an all-white jury acquitted me in terms of January 24th, 1967.

Janice Eamon Williams: Wow.

Donald Freeman: So, but then, obviously, all the challenges and encumbrances The burdens of the past were lifted off of me, and I could hone in on being a neighborhood worker at the East Park Center. At which time, thanks to a former classmate of mine— well, let's say a former college mate of mine at Case Western Reserve University, whose name was Phil Mason. He had become the head of the Head Start program in Cleveland. And with the approval of Archie Lewis, he invited Jesse Jackson to come and speak at League Park Center, at which time I had an opportunity to begin relating to Reverend Jesse Jackson.

Janice Eamon Williams: Yes.

Donald Freeman: Shortly after Reverend Jesse Jackson making a few trips to Cleveland to speak at various times— thanks especially to Lee Park Center— there was a confidential private retreat organized outside of Cleveland, and I was invited to participate in it by Reverend DeForest Brown. And at this retreat was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And in the course of the retreat, I had an opportunity to briefly confer with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. about Carl B. Stokes and his chances of being elected mayor of Cleveland in November of 1967, at which time I had an opportunity to inform Dr. King of what he was not aware of, and that is that Carl B. Stokes' 1965 run for mayor, he had essentially Just about won that election, to the point where there was a recount. And he was not allowed, in terms of the recount, to be elected mayor. But he became— he was so close that I indicated that now, after the Humphrey-Bellion, he probably could be elected, which essentially Dr. Martin Luther King was not aware Of how close the vote had been for him in 1965. So essentially, that was one of the things that I was able to do in the summer of 1967. Now, one of the things that I want to mention, because I've Obviously, have to move towards completing my presentation. Was that my soulmate and I began publishing Vibration March 21st, 1968, first issue just a couple weeks before Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated, and we're still publishing the publication now. In fact, we just recently. Published our 50th anniversary issue. So we're still publishing Vibration. Now, in closing my presentation, there's certain things that I regard as very essential to emphasize to you. One is that since 1967, my soulmate and I have been committed to To educational revolution, a revolution in terms of education in the United States, especially, of course, it's the microcosm of the macrocosm, Cleveland. And I have to emphasize that we have had to focus during That now 51-year period on what, after the Attica Rebellion in 1971, I have since been defining as juvenicide, genocide, educational genocide, juvenicide, educational genocide, in terms of—

Norma Jean Freeman: What?

Donald Freeman: Genocide of juveniles. Now, what do I mean by juvenicide? Well, what in compulsory— in terms of compulsory non-education of African Americans has become known as the school-to-prison pipeline.

Speaker 5: How?

Donald Freeman: African Americans' future, in terms of the genocide of our youth, is flushing our future down the drain. So that's a major— that's been a major priority of mine ever since I left RAM, the organization RAM.

Norma Jean Freeman: Thank you.

Donald Freeman: Now, what I want to stress —is a major cause of us not being able to address juvenicide in terms of what's happening to us today. And that is our need for a cultural revolution to provide us with the wherewithal. Now, before— I call this cultural revolution revolutionary acculturation. But before further defining what I mean by revolutionary acculturation, I want to emphasize that a major means by which we can develop collective wherewithal to implement what's necessary in terms of addressing our students', our youth's needs, is essentially what is known in terms of Kwanzaa as Nguzo Saba, the 7 principles of Kwanzaa on which the Kwanzaa is based. And I want to stress that the first 4 of those principles are very explicitly Yes. Collective in nature in terms of what's required of us. Umoja, unity. That's one. Kujichagulia, self-determination. Ujima, collective work and responsibility. Ujamaa, collective economics. Those are all collective. And in 5, niya, purpose. Our purpose needs to be not only individual.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: But collective. And then 6, Qawwamah. And then finally, Imani, faith, in terms of keeping the faith, which is collective, not only individual, and continuing the struggle. Now, to indicate more concretely what I mean by revolutionary acculturation, The dominant values of this society, which I originally called the decadent value syndrome of materialism, hedonism— meaning focus on pleasure-seeking, sex, drugs, etc.— and egoism. Materialism, hedonism, egoism.

Janice Eamon Williams: Right.

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: Hedonism and egoism. Those values essentially are tantamount to the mark of the beast on us—

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: —in terms of our addiction and seduction by those values, which essentially, as if you've heard before, get thee behind me, Satan. Those are the satanic values—

Norma Jean Freeman: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: —that we must purge ourselves of. Before we can become a community, and in terms of Black interdependence, provide the collective wherewithal that's necessary to liberate ourselves from our oppression, not just the genocide. Now, finally, in closing, I want to stress That this means that what we must implement here in the United States in order to gain our total liberation is a transcendent revolution.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: Now, in terms of this transcendent revolution. We must become new human beings in terms of purging ourselves of materialism, hedonism and egoism, and embracing spiritually rooted communal values, which provide— will provide us the wherewithal to supplant and create a new civilization in this place called the United States of America. In other words, I'm indicating that what we must do is repudiate Western civilization, because Western civilization and its capitalism is a civilization that has enslaved African Americans for over half of a millennium, over 500 years. And that in terms of this Western civilization, we were, if we acknowledge it, because of our alienation due to racism, African Americans are a people, we are the only people of African descent without a country. Now, in terms of leading the transition, leading— and by that I mean that we Americans of African descent, given how we have been forged by over 500 years of enslavement, into the people who have to become the vanguard in creating a new civilization. And I have to emphasize that only by committing ourselves to becoming The vanguard of creation of a new civilization in the United States, in what is the United States of America. Can we truly embrace our destiny, which otherwise we cannot gain our total liberation? So that's what we must do. Commit ourselves. By undergoing revolutionary acculturation to becoming the vanguard of a post-secular revolution and civilization in the United States. Yes.

Speaker 5: So, Mr. Freeman, are you saying we need to reprogram our agenda or reprogram our thinking?

Donald Freeman: Both. Both. Yeah, we need to reprogram— completely reprogram ourselves. Yeah, both. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks very much for that wonderful presentation in history. And I know 50 years ago, when the county jail was overcrowded and people were sleeping on mats on the floor, there was an outcry from a lot of the Black community, including your— what you refer to as the Black bourgeoisie, the Black lawyers, the NAACP. And they demanded change. And that's why they built that monstrosity, the Justice Center, to supposedly alleviate these things. Now we're finding from the federal report that came out last week that things are worse now in the jail than they were 50 years ago in the old building.

Norma Jean Freeman: Yeah.

Speaker 4: And I guess what I'm— and yet we haven't seen the same kind of groundswell and outcry and outrage about what's happening to the mostly black inmates in the jail who are there only because they don't have a few hundred So, I guess what I'm wondering, what your thoughts are, is what has happened in the community that we don't have the same kind of universal outcry that we had 50 years ago?

Donald Freeman: I'm glad you asked that question. And my response to that is that 50 years ago, we were not We were not dispersed as people of African descent in Cleveland and Greater Cleveland as we are now. In other words, 50 years ago, first of all, a larger number of us were residents of Cleveland. And not only being Yes. —residents of Cleveland at that time, we were more collectively concerned about our oppression and our predicament, whereby then we did at least engage in what was known as the civil rights struggle and civil rights movement. Now, we are so dispersed, not only geographically and physically, but that has had consequences culturally, in terms of how we think, our orientation toward each other and our involvement and concern about each other, and whereby We have less collective concern relative to what's going on, and in the case you indicated, the county jail, than we had 50 years ago. So I would say again, is unfortunately, we've got to deal— well, when I say unfortunately, in terms of unfortunately what is happening, one of the major things we must deal with, in terms of answering your question, third, is that we have got to deal with the necessary coming together and collective concern that is essentially absent now, in spite of how we have been dispersed. We've got to transcend this disbursement and Gain, or in certain respects regain, a greater concern about the well-being and welfare of each other. Any more questions? Yes.

Speaker 4: Jon, would you talk about how you wrote the book? Because you cover so much ground. How did you go about the process of writing it?

Speaker 5: And how did you keep all these people and these dates— how did you keep this all in line?

Speaker 4: Did you have a journal from the years?

Donald Freeman: OK, let me start out by saying, what you will read is what I have lived. And having lived it, it's like breathing. And being like breathing, What I at one point decided is that I should write an outline that encompasses what will be necessary in order to express my journey, this incarnation on this planet, which is what I did first, was— What was the outline? formulate an outline. And then over a period of time, I essentially— I'll say, filled in the outline with the content of what I have lived.

Speaker 4: And—

Donald Freeman: In terms of my memory and recollection of all that I've experienced. That's what's enabled me to, in terms of the content, include that memory and recollection in my book. Yes? Yes.

Speaker 5: I wanted to revisit a question we had when we had the Glenville riots. This is the process of regentrification and spatial displacement by numerous entities within this particular university circle. As you all may know, they have Norfolk. North Circle now. And the, uh, I spoke with Mr. Pettisoff about, about 2 or 3 months ago about the insidious ways in which, uh, uh, the removal of African-American people from the hub area on the, on the, uh, western part of, uh, here, and the building on the, uh, northern part going toward Ashbury, and the relationship between the elected officials in this particular area. And as you all may know, you may not Well, the CEO of the University Hospital some time ago passed away. He used to be the president of UCI. And the relationship, as you know, there was a carjacking over here. As you well may know, that the councilman was accosted here, Mr. Caldwell. And there's a big concern about overpolicing and racialization of this area, as well as the gobbling up of For lack of a better term, of these issues in conjunction with the Cleveland Clinic, Veterans Administration. And as you well may know, another councilman was convicted of a felony for taking bribes from the Veterans Administration, and they're continually building Westwood Lake and pushing African Americans and indigenous people out without material. Now, what is your perspective and prism on that, around these particular issues? Well, I I think that's a very important question. know you've been around. The first time I had an opportunity to meet you was at the boarding house, which used to be right here on Euclid Avenue. Now that's going to be vanquishing, and some of the other areas are going to be vanquishing, along with Case Western Reserve and their dormitory process and the university hospitals.

Donald Freeman: OK, well, of course, I've already talked about how we have become dispersed. Now, what you are expressing Yes, sir. Is— how should I say— the impetus for not only the personal decisions to leave Cleveland, but in terms of displacement—

Speaker 5: By these institutions, specifically.

Donald Freeman: Yes. Yeah. The removal— The removal of the boarding houses, head camps, et cetera. Yes. So, basically, What we are talking about is the further disbursement/displacement of African Americans from Cleveland, and in its place, the establishment of both institutions and, obviously, what we call gentrification.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Donald Freeman: In terms of African Americans in Cleveland, which, of course, those of us who are conscious of that and are still in Cleveland, like my soulmate and I, have such a commitment of making sure that we do all we can ourselves to remain in the Glenville area and encouraging others to do the same.

Speaker 5: But how does that bode well for the displacement? What can we do? What are the practical solutions to act as a buttress against this amoeba? Cleveland Clinic, University Hospital, Case Western Reserve and the Veterans Administration.

Donald Freeman: Well, the only thing that there— now, there's a political response that I can make in terms of— and I'll specifically I would start with Councilman Kevin Conwell.

Norma Jean Freeman: Yeah.

Donald Freeman: Is that our councilpersons have to have the backbone to advocate for our remaining in Glenville and other areas, but especially Glenville, and essentially not function as instruments for the institutions that are striving to displace us, which, fortunately, is not the case right now. Yeah. Yeah, we have to have— we have to have politicians, in terms of councilpersons, who are advocates for us.

Speaker 5: How does that bode well with Famicos? As you know, Famicos is one of the largest developers in this area. And they work very closely with Mr. Conwell and Mr. Jones and the other councilmen in the northern Whitfield area.

Donald Freeman: Yeah.

Speaker 5: And that relationship seems to me fraught in terms of contradictions, in terms of displacement.

Donald Freeman: Yeah, well, obviously, in terms of what you're saying, these politicians, especially Councilman Kevin Conwell, need to become critical of FAMECOs and related organizations, rather than Let's say complying with them.

Janice Eamon Williams: We can take one more question, and then we'll have the opportunity for you to purchase books. Yes, James?

Donald Freeman: And that'll be in the rear.

Janice Eamon Williams: Right. I just want to say, before you ask your question, one of the things that Mr. Freeman talked about is working as a collective. And part of the conversation And so, the conversation, because I am a Glenville resident, that we've been having is, folks need to get together and make sure that their homes are legacy homes, pass them down, and also get together and put their money together and purchase houses, because that's what the investors are doing.

Norma Jean Freeman: That's right.

Janice Eamon Williams: So, get a group of folks that you trust, that you know want to either be here or want to remain here, because it's been a struggle to remain here. I live around the corner. I know how much I paid for my house, but the one that is being rehabbed, renovated, restored around the corner from me is $370,000.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

Janice Eamon Williams: Now, even though the Wade Park Historic District is a district full of Black professionals, has been for 80 years at this point, I don't think that $370,000 restoration is necessarily meant for those of us who are here or who want to stay here. So, I suggest that we put our funds together, our heads together with people that we trust, and we become investors in our own liberation and investors in our own neighborhoods. That's just— that's my word, and I'm sticking to it. Mr. Page, you have the last word.

Donald Freeman: Yeah, Don, could you, if you haven't already, because I had to leave out, could you say anything to the people who are In your assessment of revolutionary acculturation and the transcendence that can be effected locally here in Cleveland by those of us, as you put it, dispersed as we are, this transcendence would have to do with the transformation of us as a community. I don't think we have one.

Norma Jean Freeman: We don't.

Donald Freeman: But as a community, to effect those things that we're talking about those 5 pillars that are still a problem from Stokely's thing? OK, first of all, we personally have to purge ourselves of materialism, hedonism and egoism, so we become living examples of what we espouse. And we have to do all we can in terms of advocating to other African Americans to do the same.

Speaker 4: Yes, sir.

Donald Freeman: But especially in terms of our youth, we need to strive to develop every possible means that we can to inspire them.