Documentary - Nora Barrows-Friedman - Israeli Children Torture (2010)

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Return the island to Palestine. Occupation is a crime. Free, free Palestine! You're listening to Radio Free Palestine.

Speaker 2: We're going to listen to a documentary right now about Palestinian children. And it's— it was about children in the Haisha refugee camp arrested, beaten, interrogated, tortured and imprisoned by Israeli forces. Presented by our colleague Nora Barrows-Friedman from Flashpoints KPFA in California. Here is Nora Barrows with a documentary on Palestinian children and the suffering they face under Israeli apartheid.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: In the occupied West Bank city of Bethlehem, I'm Nora Barrows-Friedman. We continue our focus on the impact of Israeli policies on the children of occupied Palestine. Today, we take a look at the story of 3 boys, 2 young brothers from Hebron and 1 teenager from Deir Ezzor refugee camp. Who have experienced arrest, detention, imprisonment, interrogation, and beatings at the hands of Israeli soldiers. On Sunday, February 28th, Amir and Hassan Mottahseb, 10 and 12 years old, were on their way to a relative's house in the Old City of Hebron. They were playing in the street when 2 Israeli soldiers captured them and handcuffed them and threw them in the back of 2 separate jeeps. Hassan, the 12-year-old, was brought to an interrogation room at nearby Kiryat Arba settlement colony, blindfolded and shackled for hours before being transferred to Ofer Prison near Ramallah, where he would stay for 7 days before being released last Sunday, March 7th, when the Israeli military judge in court admitted holding Hassan in prison was against the law. On the condition of his release, Hassan still has to appear in court at a later and undetermined date. While Hassan was being transferred to Ofer Prison, his little brother Amir was detained at the settlement colony for 10 hours, blindfolded and handcuffed to a chair. I sat down with him on Thursday, March 3rd, at his house in Hebron. We begin with Amir's voice, translated by Shadi Al-Assi. الله إحنا كنا نازلين على دور خيلتي اللي سكت في البلدة فطلعوا جنديا من شقة البنك العربي فحكولنا تعالوا إحنا على فكرة إنهم بيقولونا يعني إشي.

Speaker 2: He say we were me and my brother we were going to my aunt house and in our way there were two soldiers they just stopped us and they told us come here we want to talk with you and they arrest us they capture our hands and they put me in a jeep and my brother in another jeep. Then they took me to this school, Osama School. They were— he saw— he told, in the beginning, I saw a lot of settlers and a lot of soldiers. They were there. They put me in a corner. And they bring a dog, and they put it next to me. And he asked them if he— that he would like to go home. And they said, no, you will stay here forever. And he say, I would like to use the bathroom. And also they refuse. And he stayed there from eight, like he was captured, and they cover his eyes in the end. And he was from eight, from three o'clock in the in the night, if in the afternoon, till he don't know exactly, like ten, ten thirty. His father, he come and he take take him.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: What was going through your head? Were you were you very very afraid that they would keep you for for long? Did what did what did you what did you need at that point? إنه أرى وحضور. بخير وسليم كنت خايف؟ آه كثير؟ آه يعني قاعد باليهود المستوطنين و وفي نفس الوقت حطوا كارت تحت ال تحت الشعصرة تحت النقطة وأنا قاعد الله تبارك وتعالى.

Speaker 2: He say the first thing comes to my mind is how to go home, how to run away and go home. And I was so afraid because especially because they put just the dog next to me and every time he was shouting at me so I was really afraid. But the first thing comes to my mind—it's my family and how I gonna, how I will run away and go to my place, to my house.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Afterwards, are you able to sleep? Are you able to eat? Do you feel okay? لا أبرد لحد اليوم برضو بخوف.

Speaker 2: شو أكلتك المفضلة؟ المطاطة. مطاطة. He say like. Like till now, like I had some problems. I don't sleep. I don't sleep well, and I feel so afraid. And I ask him, "What's your favorite food?" He told me the potato.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Did they did they hurt you? Did they attack you or beat you? What what happened in those seven ten hours that you were gone? لا بس أنا بس غمولي عناي وظلتني قاعد على الكرسي.

Speaker 2: He say like, they arrest me, they put me in a chair, they capture my hands and they cover my eyes. And most of the time, like, they didn't beat me in a direct way, but they used to say bad words to me. And every time I say something, they said, shut up, don't do anything, just shut up, you know. And they bring him water, and he refused to drink. He was so afraid to drink their water.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: What was it like coming back home when you saw your father, who came to to get you finally? What what what how did you feel? عادي. يكنت خايف أو نعم لما نشفت أبوك شنتش عملت هيك أظن شو عملت وش كيف حسيت يعني؟ انبسط إني فرقت من بين إيديهم.

Speaker 2: He said. In the beginning, first time I saw him, I was so afraid. I thought there is something big gonna happen. But the moment I left from there, I was so happy because, like, I ran away from their hands, you know?

Nora Barrows-Friedman: So I was so happy. Amir, what do you want to do when you grow up?

Speaker 2: Doctor. Doctor? Doctor is? Jirohi.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Jirohi.

Speaker 2: He would like to be a doctor. And special doctor who make the on the heart.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Yeah, yeah, heart surgeon. Yeah, he wants to be a heart surgeon. What do you want to say to the children of of America? I want to see them and what I mean them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. يعني إنهم ينظروا إلنا الأطفال الفلسطينيين و. كيف عملون دولة إسرائيل؟ وشوفوا كيف عملونا معاملة سيئة. إحنا أطفال حقنا وإحنا برضو أطفال حقنا إنا نلعب ونروح نجي.

Speaker 2: Yeah, he would like to tell them. He would like to tell them like we are kids like you. We have the rights to play to. To move freely, to feel like you, nothing more than this. At the same time, to tell them— so I would like to tell them the way how the Israelis and how they treat us while we are kids. We are like 10 years, 9 years, 12 years. You can find kids 7 years inside the Israeli jails now, you know. And all what we want from you is just to look at us and try to help us to reach our freedom and to reach the freedom of movement, the freedom of playing.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: That was ten-year-old Amir Muthaseb speaking last Thursday. Amir's mother Mukarram had this to say about Amir and Hassan's treatment. يعني اللي منا يعني إحكوا إنه اليهود أخذوا الجيش أخذوا الولاد يعني كيف يعني إمتى تقبل إنه اثنين لسه صغار يعني الاثنين أسرين يعني حتى أطفال كمان هالمن يعني هاد عمره عشر ستين وهذاك لسه عين ما جاوزت ثلاثة عشر ونص لحسان. واحدهم يعني وانت.

Speaker 2: she said like the first moment she got the the news she was really afraid of for the kids and as like any mother you know there are kids you know like if there are adults it would be okay but there are kids and they don't know how to handle their problems and when she knew that Al Amir he's in this school the you know it's in a school an Arab school that Israelis they occupied and there is a lot of settlers in there so she said I was afraid not from— like from the soldiers, but I was afraid more from the settlers themselves, because there's a lot of settlers in there. And I was afraid about the kid. The moment I saw him— like till now, like he couldn't sleep sometimes in the night. He can't go to the school. He refused to go to the school. He's so afraid. So, all these things affect me so much. Like I really feel so bad for them and for what's happened with them. And about al-Hassan, like the one who's still in the jail, like as any mother, like she had a kid. He's like between 12 and a half to 13 years old, nothing more than this. So I can't imagine like a kid like this, he will be in the jail. He has to live and to— with old people, with adults. And, you know, so it's not easy for me to understand what's going on with the kids, what's happened with Amir and what's— What's going to happen with Hassan? I can't imagine my kid, he's waking up at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning for— like, he stand in line just to be sure that he's there, you know? So, I don't know how he can handle it inside the Israeli jails.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: This is a story that's very common, unfortunately. And people in, you know, in the States, in the United States, they don't know about this story. It's it's it's kept very much underneath the headlines. If you could speak directly to the to the people of the United States who pay the tax dollars to fund the Israeli occupation and the military that does this kind of thing to children, to your children, what would you say to them? يعني بالنسبة للعيشين في أوروبا وأمريكا هيك ديون الزركيف أطفال فلسطين أول يعني كيف تعاملهم؟ What I would like to say, it's not to stop paying taxes.

Speaker 2: No, continue paying taxes for the Israelis. But you have to know about what's going on here, and after that, you will stop by your own. I'm not going to tell you to stop. Like these kids, the Israelis, they dealt with them as terrorists. And for the Israelis now, it's to kill the new generation. It's better for them more than to kill the old people, because they see them— they see the future in the eyes of these kids. All what they did, that they refused this occupation. All what they— what these 2 kids did, that they carry a stone and they try to resist against the jeeps and the tanks and all these things. Nothing more. Nothing more. You know, they refuse to be under an occupation. And the Israelis died. They consider them as terrorists, people who would lie, who would— like, they dealt with them in the same way how they deal with fighters, with people who carry guns. There are kids. He's like 9 years, 10 years. And the other one, he's 12. 12 years, nothing more than this. So even if they throw stones at the Israelis, what's going to happen? Nothing, you know? So all what she wanted is just to look at the Palestinian kids and to try to help the Palestinian kids to go out of this situation. She say, like, Al-Amir now, he refused to go to the school. He's afraid from going out of the house. If anything happened around, he refused to go out, because he's— like, this time they arrest him for 10 hours. Maybe next time they will kill him. You don't know. So, all what she want is just to care and to watch what's going on here, nothing more than this. Yeah. As you say, like, in the court, one of the lawyers— she's an Israeli lawyer. Her name is Leila. Like, she was there not because of Hassan. She want to, like, to help other people, other adult people. But when she saw the kid, she took— take all the papers from her bag and was searching for something. Then she find the red balloon, and she give it for him. And he start to play with it. And in that moment, the judgment— the judge, he was really shy from, like, what he's doing. You know, a kid, he's sitting in—

Nora Barrows-Friedman: just inside the fence and— Yeah, they put them in a cage.

Speaker 2: Yeah, like a small cage. And he don't know what to do. So he was trying to hide his face from the cameras and from the people. You know, so, like, even one of the lawyers, he asked Hassan, he told him, when you want to go home? You know, just to encourage him to be brave enough and something like this. He told him, you know, I was thinking about going back yesterday, but I don't know the way to go to Hebron, so I need someone to come and pick me from here. You know, so, that's just to show you how even the way of the thing, the skiddity thing, you know? Just the small dreams, you know. Just he would like to go back home. Nothing more than this, you know. He dream about the house, you know. Like I don't know the way to go back to the house. That's all his problem.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: How are you preparing for Hassan to come back, and and how are you dealing with Amir's trauma right now? بالنسبة للحسن يعني إن شاء الله بيروح أول شيء يوم الأحد. بس إنه لو أنهم يعني اليهود ما بدها تترهب.

Speaker 2: She say she hope he will go go home on Sunday, and but even if that doesn't happen, that if he stay in the jail, she hope when when he will be released, he will go out of the jail as a man, like a young man, fourteen years old, a young man, you know. But that's how the what the Israelis want. You know, if they want to release him, they could release him from the moment he was here. But they want him— they want to create the fredness inside this kid, to don't do anything in the future against the Israeli occupation. And she's sure, like, if he's staying in the jail, that means that the Israelis, they want him to be, in the future, someone who work against this occupation. You know, like a kid, he's 13 years old, he's in the jail, he saw all these things around him. Of course, in the future, he will not go out of the jail, and he will become a peacemaker. You know, he will be something completely different. He will know, and he will try to resist against this occupation. And he will know that this occupation and these Israeli police and this Israeli government did something wrong for him when he was a kid. So, in the future, I think he will be something completely different. He will try— I hope he will try to resist, and he will try to refuse this occupation. And she hope he will go home on Sunday, you know. And they're gonna have a party here.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: And Amir, you know, what are you what are you afraid of in the next coming days and weeks and months and years? قبل ما ياخدول ولد كان أجرع من هيك ما يخافش من اليهود. هلأ لما أخدوا اليهود وحجزوا العشر ساعات عندهم صار عنده يعني عامل.

Speaker 2: She say. Like, a lot of things happened. A lot of big changes happened between before they arrest him and now. Like, before, he used to go out. He used to play a lot in the street. And, you know, he used to go to school by his own. And he never, ever think about— like, he never, ever been afraid before. For him now, it's like very hard. And she hope like in the future, in the soon future, he will become normal again, because it affects him a lot, like psychology, the psychologist way, healthy, everything, you know? Like he don't eat that much. He don't sleep well. He don't go out. He refuse to go to the school alone. Every time he's waiting, he ask the family if there is internationals who would like to— who will come here to talk with him, so they can take him home or not, you know, or they can take him to the school. So she hope everything will be fine in the soon future, and she hope he will return back as he used to be before. To be before. She was— she say, like, he used to make fun a lot before. He used to joke and to— he was so active. Now, most of the time, he just— he's just sitting, watching TV. He don't go outside of the house. He refused to go out.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Hours after that interview last week, Israeli soldiers broke into the family's home around 2:00 in the morning. They took Amir from his bed, prevented his father and mother from protecting him, as the soldiers assaulted and threatened them with their weapons. The Israeli soldiers took Amir downstairs, under the stairwell, and beat him brutally until he bled into his abdomen. Amir's parents rushed him to the hospital, where he stayed overnight receiving emergency treatment. Amir wouldn't speak for another day and a half, exhibiting symptoms of excessive trauma and shock. Today, Amir is back home with his brother and family, but will most likely need a lifetime of mental health services. Abed Jamal, a researcher at Defense for Children International's Hebron office, talks about the role of the international community in terms of holding Israel accountable for its violations of international law Especially against Palestinian children.

Speaker 2: لا شك إنه تأثير الاعتقال بالنسبة للأطفال على أهاليهم. نهي ساي، of course, then like to arrest a kid, it affects the family so much in different levels. Like it affects the family, the brothers, the sisters, the father, you know. But in the same time, according to the history that we have, you know, since a long time. We are used to these things, you know, to have a lot of people inside the jails. Like in the First Intifada, for example, a lot of Palestinians, each family, they had someone inside the jail. At the same time, like, it became like a routine. It became part of our life to have a kid, he's inside the jail, or to have someone from a family, he's inside the jail. But that doesn't mean that we don't feel or we don't— it's right that we are used to it, but at the same time, it hurts so much. It affects the family in different ways. So, even now, they try to work with the families, and they try to support the families, because in general, all the Palestinians, to be honest, all the Palestinians, they need psychological support. They need— you know, because of the things that they saw in their life. Because of the way how the Israelis are trying to treat them.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: You're listening to Flashpoints on Pacifica Radio. We're here in Hebron in the occupied West Bank, and we're at Defense for Children International. Can you talk about the legal proceedings? You know, you have attorneys working pro bono, for free, to defend these children and their families. Any successes? Have any Israeli soldiers or commanders gone to jail over the treatment that they have meted out against children? And because this is all, you know, illegal under international law, including the United Nations Conventions on the Rights of the Child, has anybody been prosecuted because of their violations of this?

Speaker 2: على صعيد جهود المؤسسة ومؤسسات أخرى عديدة عاملة ونشطة في حق الحقوق الطفل الفلسطيني. So he say most of the the time they we can't talk about big things we achieved through through our work because first of all that most of the lawyers are volunteers and they are trying to do their best to to struggle against against this Israeli military courts. And he say, like, most of the time, like, we are trying to use the law. That's the only weapons that we can use against such kind of these things that the Israelis use against our kids and against the Palestinians in general. So the only thing we can use is Geneva Convention, the Children Convention, Childhood Rights Convention, the United Nations laws. But most of the time, the Israelis, they come and they say, that's a military court. You know? So, all the laws in the world, if they say it's a military court, that all the laws doesn't exist anymore. So, he say, we are trying to reach something, but the problem is they give us this excuse every time. And in the reality, like— We are doing, but at the same time we are not doing. You know, that's how it is now.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: So the only recourse would be to have the international community and the United Nations actually step in and take these kinds of legal measures against Israeli commanders themselves because of the violations of international law.

Speaker 2: Exactly. That's it. Exactly. هذا عنوان مهم للعمل المجتمع الدولي القانون الدولي. He said, of course, that's something important to work with the international community. And now it's the only solution in front of us to do something in this case is the international community. So what we are trying to do, or what we have to do, is to— as Palestinians, we have to work all together to create a big kind of solidarity in this case, not only in the childhood or the children's rights case, in general as Palestinians. So through our work, we are trying to reach the international community, we are trying to tell about what's going on here, about different cases in Palestine, to create a kind of support for this. And we believe that the only way to reach an end for what's going on here, it's the international community, because they are the ones who could do something against this occupation. No, they never had international lawyers. Most of the time, it's Palestinian lawyers who live inside Israel and who hold Israeli IDs, because even the Palestinian lawyers inside the West Bank, they are not allowed to be in military courts or the courts that are not for the Israelis. According to the Israeli law, there is nothing called Palestine, so they don't— they do not exist anymore. So they use Palestinians, Palestinian lawyers who live inside the Green Line, like from '48, Arabs from '48 or from Jerusalem.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Can you give me some statistics finally? How many children right now are in jail, and what is the youngest child in jail right now?

Speaker 2: يعني على مدار السنوات الماضية، سنوات الانتفاضة الثانية، تم اعتقال للآلاف من ال. He say like from the beginning of the second intifada till today, like the number itself, we can't tell about the number. It's expanding, and sometimes it's. So, it's changeable, we say. So, sometimes it's 1,000, sometimes it's 2,000. It depends. And all— from the 2,000 till today, there is a lot of thousands of kids that were inside the Israeli jails. Right now, in these days, they had 350 kids inside the Israeli jails. They are separated in different places in Israel, and they are having a very bad situation inside Some of them they are under administration detention. Some of them they are already went to the courts and they are judged already inside the Israeli jails.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: And how old are these kids? Give us a sense of how old they are.

Speaker 2: تتراوح الأعمار إجمالاً ما بين أربعتاش وثمانتاشر عام. ما بين أربعتاشر عام وثمانتاشر عام معظم أو الغربية الساحقة من الأطفال الفلسطينيين المعتقلين. Most of them are in between 14 and 18 years old. Like the majority, he said. The majority it's 18 between between 14 years old and 18 years old. Yeah. I know a kid. He's in the jail. He's I think one year and a half. Even less. طفل هذا اللي أمه ودته في السجن. أظهرت.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: He was born in jail. Yeah.

Speaker 2: He was born in jail and he stay in the jail till now. He say, according to the international law, the age for the kids, it's like till 18 years old. In Israel, it's 16 years old. And this is also against the international law. At the same time, there is a special law inside Israel. It's called 132. It allows the Israeli army To arrest kids who is more than twelve, who reached twelve years old. So in this way, they had a legal cover for what they are doing. أيضاً في الاعتقال الأخير أو الطفلين اللي سألتيني عنهم قبل شوي حسن. He say in the last case you ask about for about these two kids, even sometimes. They are breaking their laws itself. Like, we are talking about 132, which it is— they are allowed to arrest kids from 12 years old. But in the last case, they arrest a kid. He was born in 1999, and they arrest him for a few hours. And a few hours for a kid in this age, that means a lot, you know? So, even the Israelis, the laws inside Israel, it's changeable. So, anytime they could change this law, anytime— There is no law inside Israel at all.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: I'm Nora Barrows-Friedman. You're listening to a special report on Palestinian children brutalized under Israeli military policy. We now go to Deheisha refugee camp in southern Bethlehem, where 17-year-old Mohammed Lakhmour was taken last year by Israeli soldiers in the middle of the night, detained, interrogated and sent to prison for nearly a whole year.

Mohammed Lakhmour: My name is Mohammed. Mohammed Lakhmour. And I'm 17 years old.

Speaker 2: My name is Muhammad Lakhmour, and I am seventeen years old now.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Okay, tell me about what you were doing the day that you were arrested.

Mohammed Lakhmour: فيش يعني طبيعة الاشي يعني أنا كنت نايم وكنت ما كنت شايفهم يديم ياخدوني يعني متأكد مية في المية.

Speaker 2: So he say when they come to arrest him he was sleeping at home. The soldiers they come to the house and they enter to this flat first and they destroy everything here. Then they went to the second flat on the top. And his mother, she wake him up. She told him the soldiers are just in front of the house. And he told her, like, maybe they come to look for me. So they enter to the house. They ask about him. And he say, I'm Muhammad. They couldn't believe that he's Muhammad, because he was very young in that time, and he was short. So they didn't believe that he's the same person that they are looking for. And in the end, like, they arrest him from the house, and they took him to the stairs just in front of the house.

Mohammed Lakhmour: بعد إن يوم حكيت إن أنا محمد وهيك بعد ما صدقوا أحكوا لي دخلون.

Speaker 2: so he say after that like they didn't believe in the beginning that I'm Muhammad then after after I improved that I'm I'm the guy that they're looking for they told me go inside wear something because we want to take you for half an hour one hour maximum and we'll we'll send you back here. So when he went inside to change his clothes, he— they fight with his brother Mustafa, and they beat Mustafa in the room where he was. And after that, they took Muhammad and they went down. They didn't let him say goodbye for his family. And when he went down, he say, I would like to see my grandmother. And they refused to let him see her. And they beat him in that moment when he refused to go with them out unless he see his Grandmother. Then they start beating him and they force him to go with them.

Mohammed Lakhmour: بعد ما أخذوني بعد ما أنزل تحت وصارت مشكلة عاد الضابط صار يحكي محداش يصيبه وهيك وطلعني ومشيت لعند الجيب.

Speaker 2: After that, like the captain or the leader for the army, he came and he asked he stopped them from beating him and they asked him to walk till they reached the cars. There were two cars, so the soldiers they went with him in the same car and the other the leader for the army he went in the other car. So they take it as an opportunity so they can beat him because like the leader of them he's not in the car. So they were beating him all the way from here to Agos Asion, all the way from here to Bush Asion. It's a military camp next to Bethlehem. They were beating him all the way from here till till he reached there. It's around Like thirty minutes from here, half an hour. That he say like when they were beating him, he was captured. Like they put something in plastic in his hand and his eyes was covered, so he didn't know who was beating him or like he couldn't defend himself because he can't see the soldiers.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: What were they saying to you as they were beating you?

Mohammed Lakhmour: إن أهم يضرو فيه كانوا يغلطوا يعني باكي يعني باكي سبسبو. يعني حكيم شمني يعني سب وهي ده.

Speaker 2: yeah they say like most of the time they were saying bad words to him about the family about his father his mother about him himself and they told him you were you were trying to improve that you are a man and you are an adult so you will pay a lot for for that and they say that you are a terrorist you are someone who destroy who is working against the the Israel state okay so then that you got to Gush Etzion and then they took you to Moskobiya prison In Jerusalem, which is a very infamous detention center where people are tortured frequently before they're usually moved on to another prison or jail.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Talk about what that was like.

Mohammed Lakhmour: أول ما أول ما ودون على سيون سولف أحصبي لبشم الكل شيء بعد ما خلصنا ودون على المسكوبية.

Speaker 2: He say like first when they when he got to Gujat Siwan they make a health check for him. Everything, you know, to be sure that he's okay, he's fine, there's no health problems with him. Then they transfer him from Gush Etzion. في نفس اليوم. In the same day, they transfer him from there to Masqubiyah. And the moment he entered to Al-Masqubiyah, direct they take him to— they start to ask him questions about what he did and what he's doing these days, what's his name, his father, everything, you know. And they were forcing him to say things that he did some some things he didn't do it. You know, they use a lot of different ways. They say he says they were beating him. They use like individual rooms, small rooms. They put him alone for a week. They use different styles. You know, to force him to say things that he didn't do. So for Kadesh, thirty-nine days. He was alone. Every one week or two days, three days, when soldier he come, he pick him, ask him questions, take him a lot of through a lot of states, then send him back to the room for thirty-nine days.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: What was going through your head as this was all happening? What were you thinking about? Were you able to sleep? Were were you eating at all?

Mohammed Lakhmour: What what was going on? بعد زي ما حكيتنا أول أسبوع يعني كنت تعود إن تعبت في أول أسبوع.

Speaker 2: He say like the first week was so bad for me. Like most of the time I was thinking about my mother, my family, my friends. What's gonna happen to me? How much I will stay in the jail? All these questions comes to my mind altogether. That wasn't the first week, but after that I start to deal with with it with it as it's something normal, and I have to stay for more more time. So I have to deal with it. I have to solve this problem. So I stopped thinking like strongly about it, and I start to deal with the situation as it is. They told him a lot that you're gonna— we're gonna release you in the court and something like this. So he didn't even believe them, and he still think that even if I go to the court, I have to prepare myself for being here for more time. So that, that was the, the worst and the hardest time for him, the first week. And, you know, the first Thirty-nine days. It was so hard for him to to deal with it and to understand what's what's going on.

Mohammed Lakhmour: بعد ما صار الحكي هذا بالنسبة للأكل الأكل كانوا جيبونه يعني يعني أشياء مش منيحة.

Speaker 2: So he say like about the food, like they used to bring them very bad quality food. It's like just you know just to eat you know. Just to live, to serve. And sometimes, a lot of times, they used to bring them a lot of expired things, you know, with expired date. And he say like, we were under the ground, and the jail itself, it's under the ground, so we didn't know if it's morning or night. We don't have even— we don't know what's the time or anything. And after that, they start to take us for like 10, 20 minutes outside in a square. But wherever you look There is fence, you know. So even even with the fence, it was the best moments for us. This twenty minutes was the best thing for us because at least you can smell normal air. You can see the sun, you know. But even even with that, still still like affect us a lot, you know.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: After after five weeks in Moscovia prison, where where did they take you?

Mohammed Lakhmour: بعد ما خلص من موسكويا صاروا ودوا فينا على محاكم يعني أول إشي في الموسكويا صاروا ودونا على المحاكم.

Speaker 2: He say they used to make the court in the same jail. So a lot of times, like, it's like administration detention, you call it. Like, uh, 10 days, they give him 10 days. After the 10 days finish, finish, he go to the court in the jail itself and they renew it for him. After that, when they finish in the, in the Masqubiyah, they transfer him to Awfar. It's near Ramallah. It's one of the only— I think now it's It's the only Israeli jail inside the West Bank, and it's next to Ramallah.

Mohammed Lakhmour: يوم وصلت عوفار يوم ودنا العوفار هناك بسط يعني ما كانش في بالي الترويح يعني خلاص إنه بدي أروح لأنه ما يعني.

Speaker 2: He said when when they transferred him to عوفار he was so happy in that moment even if it's a jail but it's still better than مسكوبية because at least he saw a lot of people from the Haysa refugee camp he know them there that he say like The people, Palestinians inside the jail, they take care of us. And because we were— I was so young, and they helped me a lot. They bring me dresses. They bring me— they used to help me with the food, with everything. And that was the best. And he prepared himself for more long term, you know. So he thought he— because they transfer him from a small jail to a big jail, he thought he will be like 2 or 3 years in the jail. So, but when he saw the people around him, He started to feel better than when he was in Al-Masqubiyah.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: And this was still under what they call administrative detention. So you weren't charged, you weren't convicted, you didn't have a trial. This was all just done internally within the Israeli military court system. Yeah.

Mohammed Lakhmour: يعني ما كنت مسكوبية أجل محامي ويعني رفع رفع دعوة على المحقق.

Speaker 2: إنه ليش مثلاً ضلوا هالكدف؟ So he say like. When he was in Muscobia, there were only this courts under the administration detention, nothing more than this. And in the end, when his lawyer came and he make a big problem for the soldiers because he spent like 39 days without trial, without anything. So they transfer him to Ofer, and after that they come again from Ofer and they send him back to Muscobia.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: Really? Back to Muscobia?

Speaker 2: Yes. كدهش المرة الثانية كاتل مسكوبية؟ بعد بسبوعين ودونا على عوفار بعد بسبوعين يعني كملت لتصاطع تين يوم وإحنا قاعدين. so they send him to عوفار they send him to مسكوبية for another two weeks and after that they say if for to the lawyer even you you can't get involved in in this story and you can't take go to the court again against us because there is a big story and we we have to to take more time in in the process Yeah, in the process, and they they force him to stop like from going to the court.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: And just to be clear, what they were putting you in Moskubia and Ofer prison and transferring you back and forth to and and torturing you and beating you and all of this was for what?

Mohammed Lakhmour: هاي كاريو سموها دراة تعصفي يعني عشان يعني حاولوا أثر عليكم جميع الجوانب يعني.

Speaker 2: All what they were waiting for, it's just to tell them, okay, just let me go out of this problem and I will work with you. So they were putting a lot of pressure, psychologists, different, you know, different kind of ways, just in the end just to force you as a kid, you know, to force you to work with them. And for them, even if you are a kid, you could help them so much because you are a kid and no one will believe that you are cooperating with the Israelis. So that's the main idea from moving you to a place and bring you back, putting you in jail, punish you, beating you. All these things is just to let you work with them. هل سؤال ثاني هم عرضوا عليك أنك تشتغل معهم؟ لا لا ما عرضوش.

Mohammed Lakhmour: ما عرضوا. بس ما هيك مش كلام طرق. آه.

Speaker 2: I asked him if they ask him to work with them or not. He said no. But this is like this is what you can understand from all what they are doing.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: At first, he said at first it was yes to— because he threw stones and because of his political affiliation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, they say it's because it's, uh, because he's— they arrested him because he's— he was throwing stones, because he's BFLB, and because, uh, he used to do something against the Israelis during the night in the camp. And he say there's a lot of kids, they arrest them before him. They, uh, improve, or they say that Muhammad, he was with us, or Muhammad, he throw stones, or Muhammad, whatever. And according to the Israeli law, if any— if 4 guys come and they say, Mohammed, he did this, he will be judged, even if he didn't say, I do it. So any 4 guys, if they go to the Israelis and they say, yes, this guy, he did this, even if you say no, they will judge you. You don't have— even you don't have time to negotiate or to talk about it. They didn't allow you to talk.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: It's conviction by hearsay, by torture and interrogation techniques, which is all illegal under international law, especially against children.

Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. And one of the things also he said, they told him in the beginning, if you sign this paper and you agree that you did all these things, you'll spend here one week, and then we will release you. But he refused, because he didn't do anything like this.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: And because they told him at the very beginning, when they came to get him, that he was only going to be gone half an hour, maybe an hour at most. And it turned into one year. One year. So, the second time, after Muscubi Prison, You went back to Ofer. Yeah. And then you spent another, what, eight, nine months in Ofer prison? Yeah. Yeah.

Mohammed Lakhmour: Oh, درغاني كي متسعة اثنين يوم كي مسكوبية.

Speaker 2: He say like most of the time he spend it in in the same jail after they transfer him from مسكوبية. He spend exactly nine months in in مسكوبية in Ofer. And he said, like, I was— I stayed in the same section, in the same tent, in the same bed for 9 months. I, I refused to move to another place or anything. He said, like, they take me to the court before they judge me 4 times. And in the end, because the Israelis, they were asking for more than 1 year for him, but the lawyer, he said, like, that he's 16 years old, he He don't have an ID. So they, uh, said 12 years— yeah, 12 months. And actually, this is something from me I would like to add about the months. You know, in Israel, they deal with the Hebrew year, which it has mean it's 9 months. The year is 9 months. So when, for example, any Palestinian go to the jail and they say 7 years, 7 years in the Hebrew, in the Hebrew calendar. You know, but because they want them to spend like a normal year, like, you know, so they say, for example, 42 months, 50 months, 12 months. So in this way, they spend the year like normal year, which it is 12 months.

Nora Barrows-Friedman: OK. What was it like coming back home after a year of being away from your family, your community, your friends? What was that like for you?

Mohammed Lakhmour: آخر يوم كان اللي في السجن كان يعني بصراحة كان يعني ما كنتش مبسوط كثير من الدروة. يعني كل شباب.

Speaker 2: He say like the day before when before he leave he left the jail he was so upset. It's not because that he don't want like he don't want to be free. It's because the guys that he know in the jail and the relationship between him and the like he create a good friendship with with the guys in the jail and he learn a lot from them and he. Also they learned a lot from him. So it was not easy for him to just to leave like this, you know, like one year as nothing happened. So when he went out next day, the first moment