Colonel Qaddafi Interviews

Speaker 1: To meet Gaddafi, we had to drive 50 miles across the desert to catch him on one of his periodic journeys. As a Bedouin, he feels the desert is his natural home, and this part of it is where he was brought up. He comes here to stay for a few days and meditate on his political ideas. Colonel Gaddafi is a strange mixture of ideological otherworldliness and toughness. 2 years ago, there were 36 executions after one of several coup attempts against him. Many would say there was other blood on his hands. He's been paymaster to the IRA and to the most extreme Palestinian groups. But Western diplomats concede that he's mellowing, and now his attention is on consolidating his plans for the Jamaahiriyya.

Muammar Qaddafi: I believe all the world will be changed into this kind of, of political regime, which is Jamahiriyya. And the future will be the future of Jamahiriyyas in the world. And we only open the, the era of masses, the era of Jamahiriyyas, as the French Revolution established the era of republics, and we here, you can say Libya now is establishing the era of jemahiris.

Speaker 1: Now, at the end of next month, there are going to be large changes, aren't there, as, as you move really to the next phase of the plan that you outlined in the Green Book? Can you tell me a little bit about the kind of changes that will take place then?

Muammar Qaddafi: We will establish finally the authority of the people in this, in these following months. And the leaders of the revolution will lift the authority finally to the people. And the people, through the people's congresses and people's committees, will form This new state without any representation and without any president, without any leader.

Speaker 1: But what about Islam in its social role? Will Islam as a religion, as a structure, play the kind of part that it has perhaps played in other, in other Islamic countries?

Muammar Qaddafi: I believe, as it is written in Quran and And in the Bible also, the social justice is one of the main goals of these religions. As Jesus calls for, or called for, social justice. And equality between all human beings. Also, Quran calls for this. And as I said, there is no contradiction between political regime, Jemahiri, and Islam. Also, there is no contradiction between socialism and Islam. And there is There is no contradiction between socialism and Christianity and Jews and so on.

Speaker 1: Out in the country, where the revolution wants to get more people back to the land, the benefits of the oil money are more evident. The lives of many simple Libyans have been transformed by it. Said al-Viattouri, for instance, has a small farm of 60 acres where 10 years ago he grazed his sheep on desert scrub. There are 400 farmers like Said on this cooperative. Half of them had first to be taught to read and write. Said was given his farmhouse, with livestock and fruit trees, plus a tractor, free by the government. In fact, the revolution has invested £45,000 in each farmer to get him started. Why, why, what? The farmhouses are standard. Farmer Said didn't want us to look inside, but we were assured that each house had a sitting room with a visitor's lavatory, 3 other rooms with kitchen and bathroom, and a barn and outhouses for the stock and storage. With the tractor went 25 sheep, 25 laying hens, grapevines, and trees— olive, fig, peach, and plum. Said, no doubt, was something of a model farmer, but we went there unescorted and were able to see and ask for ourselves. As a desert, the place was known as Death Valley. Then changed after reclamation to Valley of the Living, apparently at Colonel Gaddafi's suggestion. It's a project that's very much the apple of his eye. We heard that he drops in from time to time, alone and incognito, to have tea and a chat with farmers like Said. But we also heard of cases where the pioneer farming hadn't been quite so cozy. The joke in Libya is that when they bore for water in such ground, they're afraid of striking oil. The revolution insists that Libya must be self-sufficient in food. Like other OPEC countries, it's changed from a net exporter of food to having to buy it in from abroad. The hope is finally to reclaim 1.5 million acres of desert. But the revolution's not gone all Colonel Gaddafi's way, and letting the people decide has sometimes meant that the peasants have told him that they preferred things the way they were.

Speaker 3: We want to have a vote.

Speaker 1: Reclamation and irrigation, they both owe something to the ideas developed on the kibbutzim in Israel. This cooperative also had a village centre with a school, a fire station, and an ambulance with a small hospital and a resident doctor. It's perhaps the final irony that kibbutz farming methods should be changing a country so implacably opposed to the state of Israel. What will be your immediate reaction when Egypt and Israel do presumably sign an agreement of some sort?

Muammar Qaddafi: We already put this regime in Egypt in the blacklist, and if it happens in future, the other Arab countries, according to the summit conference of Baghdad, they will put Egypt in blacklist, all these countries.

Speaker 1: What would be the real— what would be the result of that?

Muammar Qaddafi: The result of that is to show to all the world and to the Egyptians themselves this why is only the why of, of Sadat, and it is the why of خيانة.

Speaker 3: Treason. The way, the way of treason.

Speaker 1: What are your views on what's happening in Iran at the moment?

Muammar Qaddafi: It is people's revolution, and this right thing is being done in Iran against this dictatorial regime of Shah and this influence of USA. And this backwardness in this country, and this decay in the life, social life of this society, and the people's revolution is the medicine for this illness of this country.

Speaker 1: Can we now move on to Saudi Arabia? Will that country experience the same kind of upheavals that Iran has?

Muammar Qaddafi: Of course. The time will come to bring these events into Saudi Arabia and into Egypt and all— and other countries similar to this, to Iran.

Speaker 1: When you say the time will come to bring it, does that mean that it should be done from outside or that it will be done from within the country?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, it will be done from the people itself, from Inside Saudi Arabia, inside Egypt, as it now being done from inside Iran, from the people itself, by the people itself, by the masses. I think Egypt is the first country who will be— will witness people's revolution by workers and the students and Farmers sooner than Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 1: Do you see the influence of the West, of the United States in particular, gradually disappearing in this part of the world, in in the Arab world?

Speaker 3: When?

Speaker 1: Now.

Muammar Qaddafi: You mean the influence of America? Yes.

Speaker 3: Disappears now.

Speaker 1: Yes, is it beginning to disappear now?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, the influence of America is is very strong now in this area.

Speaker 1: And this the influence of the Soviet Union?

Muammar Qaddafi: I don't see any influence of the Soviet Union, but I see cooperation between Soviet Union and this and these countries.

Speaker 1: As Libya moves into 1979. What changes do you expect to see in the program that you've been outlining?

Muammar Qaddafi: Not only Libya is being changed in 2017. All the world is being changed now into this new year. And what I can say, not about Libya, but all the world, I hope, I wish for all the world, especially the Catholic world, must go back to the words of Jesus and the words of God and read the Bible again and again, Because now they are acting against Bible, against the words of Jesus, against the words of God. That I want, and that my wish for all the Catholic world and all the world, peoples in the world in this new year.

Speaker 1: Gaddafi is a visionary, a prophet with honour really only in his own country. There, Libya's huge oil exports have made it possible to put the vision into practice. Assignment this Sunday has taken off to North Africa, to Libya. This has been a week which has seen a major upheaval in the Muslim world, with the collapse of the Shah's regime in Iran and its replacement by a government which is obliged to hold much more strictly to the code of the Muslim faith, the religion of the Koran. In many ways, politics in Iran are dominated by a man who's not a politician and who isn't in the government, the Shah's bitter religious opponent, the Ayatollah Khomeini, who from his exile in Paris has been like a prompter offstage in the wings. I'm a Muslim. The Ayatollah's strongest backer is here in Libya, Colonel Gaddafi. And Libya is something of the model the Ayatollah appears to have in mind when he talks of Iran under an Islamic Republic. This is Green Square in the centre of Tripoli, green being the colour of this particular revolution. Across the square are the shops, but the somewhat shabby arcades are plastered with revolutionary posters. Several shops are closed because they're kept deliberately short of things to sell. Private shops will eventually be eliminated, replaced by people's supermarkets, with everything sold at cost and no profits for individuals. Libya insists that its oil money isn't for a consumer boom on imported luxuries. The plan envisages homes for all. The revolution decrees that everyone owns the house he's living in. For those people in a new house, repayments are by salary deduction. There's a free health service, free schools, and many own a car. Since oil, the average income per head has gone from £25 to £3,000 a year.

Muammar Qaddafi: I'm a teacher.

Speaker 1: So life is prosperous but earnest. Libyans are being nudged down the road to socialism, where they can own the basics, but profit is to be discouraged. Their discipline is the Koran, and their inspiration, Colonel Gaddafi. From large posters across the town, the Colonel extols his Jamahiriyya, rule by the people, without a leader or by political parties or even by a government. He's put it all into a little green book. This is chapter and verse for Colonel Gaddafi's Jamahiriyya, his state of the masses. His little green book appears everywhere in Libya. The green book, it says, prescribes the comprehensive solution of the problems of human society. No false modesty there. But Colonel Gaddafi's argument is a simple one: the kind of democracy that the capitalist West has This, where a government elected by 51% of the people is imposed on the other 49% who didn't vote for it, is no real democracy. Nor is the communist system, where it's the party and not the people which governs. Colonel Gaddafi creates an elaborate system of people's committees and congresses, where everything is discussed and everyone has their say. To meet Gaddafi, we had to drive 50 miles across the desert to catch him on one of his periodic journeys. As a Bedouin, he feels the desert is his natural home, and this part of it is where he was brought up. He comes here to stay for a few days and meditate on his political ideas. Colonel Gaddafi is a strange mixture of ideological otherworldliness and toughness. 2 years ago, there were 36 executions after one of several Many would say there was other blood on his hands. He's been paymaster to the IRA and to the most extreme Palestinian groups. But Western diplomats concede that he's mellowing, and now his attention is on consolidating his plans for the Jamaahiriyya.

Muammar Qaddafi: I believe all the world will be changed into this kind of of political regime, which is Jemahiri. The future will be the future of Jemahiris in the world. And we only open the, the era of masses, the era of Jemahiris, as the French Revolution established the era of republicans. And we here, we can say Libya now is establishing the era of, uh, Jamahiris.

Speaker 1: Now, at the end of next month, there are going to be large changes, aren't there, as, as you move really to the next phase of the plan that you outlined in the Green Book? Can you tell me a little bit about the kind of changes that will take place We will establish finally the authority of the people in this, in this following months.

Muammar Qaddafi: And the leaders of the revolution will lift the authority finally to the people. And the people, through the people's congresses, And people's committees will form this new state without any representation and without any president, without any leader.

Speaker 1: But what about Islam in its social role? Will Islam as a religion, as a structure, play the kind of part that it has perhaps played in other Islamic countries?

Muammar Qaddafi: I believe, as it is written in Quran and in the Bible also, the social justice is one of the main goals of these religions. As Jesus calls for, called for social justice and equality between all human beings, also Quran calls for this. And as I said, there is no contradiction between political regime, Jemahiri, and so on, and the Islam also. There is no contradiction between socialism and Islam, and there is no contradiction between socialism and Christianity and Jews and so on.

Speaker 1: Out in the country, where the revolution wants to get more people back to the land, the benefits of the oil money are more evident. The lives of many simple Libyans have been transformed by it. Said el-Biattouri, for instance, has a small farm of 60 acres where 10 years ago he grazed his sheep on desert scrub. There are 400 farmers like Said on this cooperative. Half of them had first to be taught to read and write. Said was given his farmhouse with livestock and fruit trees, plus a tractor, free by the government. In fact, the revolution has invested £45,000 in each farmer to get him started.

Speaker 3: Why, why, why?

Speaker 1: The farmhouses are standard. Farmer Said didn't want us to look inside, but we were assured that each house had a sitting room with a visitor's lavatory, 3 other rooms with kitchen and bathroom, and a barn and outhouses for the stock and storage. With the tractor went 25 sheep, 25 laying hens, Grapevines and trees— olive, fig, peach, and plum. Said, no doubt, was something of a model farmer, but we went there unescorted and were able to see and ask for ourselves. As a desert, the place was known as Death Valley, then changed after reclamation to Valley of the Living, apparently at Colonel Gaddafi's suggestion. It's a project that's very much the apple of his eye. We heard that he drops in from time to time, alone and incognito, to have tea and a chat with farmers like Said. But we also heard of cases where the pioneer farming hadn't been quite so cozy. The joke in Libya is that when they bore for water in such ground, they're afraid of striking oil. The revolution insists that Libya must be self-sufficient in food. Like other OPEC countries, it's changed from a net exporter of food to having to buy it in from abroad. The hope is finally to reclaim 1.5 million acres of desert. But the revolution's not gone all Colonel Gaddafi's way, and letting the people decide has sometimes meant that the peasants have told him that they preferred things the way they were. Reclamation and irrigation They both owe something to the ideas developed on the kibbutzim in Israel. This cooperative also had a village center with a school, a fire station, and an ambulance with a small hospital and a resident doctor. It's perhaps the final irony that kibbutz farming methods should be changing a country so implacably opposed to the state of Israel. What will be your immediate reaction when? Egypt and Israel do presumably sign an agreement of some sort?

Muammar Qaddafi: We already put this regime in Egypt in the blacklist. And if it happens in future, the other Arab countries, according to the summit conference of Baghdad, they will put Egypt Blacklist all these countries.

Speaker 1: What would be the real— what would be the result of that?

Muammar Qaddafi: The result of that, it's to show to all the world and to the Egyptians themselves, this way is only the way of, uh, of, uh, Sadat. And it is the way of— treason. The way of treason.

Speaker 1: What are your views on what's happening in Iran at the moment?

Speaker 3: It is a people's revolution.

Muammar Qaddafi: And it is the right thing is being done in Iran. Against this dictatorial regime of Che and this influence of USA and this backwardness in this country and this decay in the life, social life of this society. And the people's revolution is the medicine for this illness of this country.

Speaker 1: Can we now move on to Saudi Arabia? Will that country experience the same kind of upheavals that Iran has?

Muammar Qaddafi: Of course. The time will come to bring these events into Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia and into Egypt and all and other countries similar to this, to Iran.

Speaker 1: When you say the time will come to bring it, does that mean that it should be done from outside or that will be done from within the country?

Muammar Qaddafi: Will be done from the people itself, from inside Saudi Arabia, inside Egypt, as it now being done from from inside Iran, from the people itself, by the people itself, by the masses. I think Egypt is the first country who will be— will witness people's revolution by workers and the students and farmers sooner than Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 1: Do you see the influence of the West, of the United States in particular, gradually disappearing in this part of the world, in, in the Arab world?

Muammar Qaddafi: When?

Speaker 3: Now.

Muammar Qaddafi: You mean the influence of America?

Speaker 3: Yes.

Muammar Qaddafi: Disappears now?

Speaker 4: Yes.

Speaker 1: Is it beginning to disappear now?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, the influence of America is very strong now in this area.

Speaker 1: And the influence of the Soviet Union?

Muammar Qaddafi: I don't see any influence of the Soviet Union, but I see cooperation between Soviet Union and these countries.

Speaker 1: As Libya moves into 1979, what changes do you expect to see in the program that you've been outlining?

Muammar Qaddafi: Not only Libya is being changed into 79. All the world is being changed now into this new year. And what I can say not about Libya but all the world, I hope, I wish for all the world, especially the Catholic world, must go back to the words of Jesus and the words of God and read the Bible again and again, because now they are acting against Bible, against Against the world, so please, against the world, so come. That I want, and that my wish for all the Catholic world and all the world, peoples in the world in this new year.

Speaker 1: Gaddafi is a visionary, a prophet with honor really only in his own country. There, Libya's huge oil exports have made it possible to put the vision into practice. The vision itself, the Jamahiriyya, is unlikely to prove exportable.

Speaker 4: Of all the Arab nations, Libya uses its oil as a political weapon more than any other. And on April 1st, that nation will cut its production by almost 20%. In this case, the cut ordered by Libya's dictator, Muammar al-Qaddafi, may be more economic than political. Libyan oil, high-priced and high-quality, is for the moment in oversupply. That could change quickly. What won't change quickly is the fact that Gaddafi's Libyan oil fields are the world's 9th largest producer and account for about 8% of America's imported oil. So Libya's Gaddafi is a man to be reckoned with. If you had to describe the public perception of Gaddafi by his people, you might think He has the right combination in his face, a strong and asymmetric handsomeness, like the antihero movie stars of the '60s and '70s, along with a persistent withdrawal or contemplation in the eyes, an implied asceticism.

Muammar Qaddafi: I want to see Al-Sheikh! I want to see Al-Sheikh!

Speaker 4: He usually gives the impression of being quieter than those around him, especially when the people around him are revolutionary committees, an elite, almost a group of commissars. To keep track of the purity of the revolution, his revolution. He holds no public office. Gurus don't have to. Perhaps he sees himself as a combination of Gandhi and Mao Zedong. The Gandhi part is his contention that government and political parties are just ways to cheat people. قلنا في هذا المنطقة على درب Government, he says, will wither away, and committees of the people will decide on what is best for them. His role? He is a teacher. Like Mao Zedong, he has compiled his thinking into a green book, actually a green book, parts 1, 2, and 3. It is the Third Universal Theory, a blending of the Koran and Gaddafi's own brooding thoughts. The result is something the Libyans call the Jamahiriyya, the state of the masses. So far, the Jamahiriyya is mostly an extension of Gaddafi's will, an attempt to reshape the Libyan consciousness in the form of his vision. His vision is one thing. This is the reality: 2,500 tanks, Russian-built, and accompanied by 5,000 to 6,000 Russian advisers. Gaddafi has spread arms Hail, hail, hail! Libya has provided arms and training money to rebel groups in many African countries. To this parade, on the 10th anniversary of his bloodless coup d'état, September 1st, 1969, Gaddafi invited Syria's Assad, Jordan's Hussein, and Yasser Arafat, even though soon after he withdrew Libya's large subsidy to Arafat's al-Fatah, the most moderate element of the PLO. One of the most striking guests was Billy Carter, who worked briefly for Libya as a consultant.

Speaker 3: USA! USA! USA!

Speaker 4: His military equipment, billions of dollars' worth, was there, more than Libya has trained people to operate. Even some of their jet fighters, which we could not photograph, are flown by North Koreans. Libya is Mediterranean rather than African. It is surrounded by poorer, more conventional Arab neighbors: Algeria, Tunisia, Sadat's Egypt, which Gaddafi considers an enemy. It is 99% sand, not arable in its natural state except the strip along the sea. For its 2.5 million people, it is huge. You could fit 3 states of Texas inside its borders.

Speaker 3: Roger Waters.

Speaker 4: To find Gaddafi, if you have been invited to see him, you may have to go out into the fields beyond Benghazi to where he prays outside a tent, a tent sort of like those of his Bedouin ancestors, where you are told he likes to go to keep away from the In the tent, you hear in his gentle voice the most vicious position on Israel, for instance, of any Arab leader. Any Jew who came to Palestine since 1948, he says, must go away.

Muammar Qaddafi: This is only the way for peace, and without this, The war is a compulsory solution in this area.

Speaker 4: There's no compromise on this?

Muammar Qaddafi: I don't think so.

Speaker 4: I believe that Libya issued a statement disapproving in general of the taking of hostages in an embassy, but you support the Iranians otherwise. If you were president If you were President Carter, what would you do about the hostage situation?

Muammar Qaddafi: I consider the behavior of President Carter is good, because he controlled himself. But I am against the concentrating the American fleets and armies around Iran. We consider it as if America declared the war against Iran silently. And from this side, I see the situation is serious. But you must be sure, if any aggression If a war takes place in future against Iran, we will be a part of this war.

Speaker 4: Gaddafi's fierceness has been so far mostly verbal, but the equipment to fight such a war is still arriving at the docks of Benghazi. We were not invited to photograph this ominous cargo, but we established they were Russian-built ground-to-ground missiles. To us, the Libyans prefer Libya, say the pamphlets of the Department of Information, is booming. And it is. The oil money is fueling heavy activity in commerce, in housing, in industrialization— a better life for people who just 25 years ago were listed as the poorest in the world. A disproportionate share may be going for arms, but the ordinary citizen is seeing a lot of it, too.

Speaker 5: I want to see the revolution.

Speaker 4: There is practically no unemployment in Libya, and while imported goods are expensive, Libyan wages are 5 to 10 times as high for similar jobs as in Malta or Egypt, which explains why Libya has no difficulty in importing 1 million foreign workers— Maltese, Egyptian, Palestinian. This is a new idea of Gaddafi's, modern super He hopes they will replace the ancient tangled bazaars. To help, these government-owned and subsidized stores are, on an average, 40% cheaper than the bazaar shops in old Tripoli. The most omnipresent feature of Libyan urban geography is Gaddafi. His portraits are everywhere. Another layer in the long and complex culture of Libya that begins with statues the Romans left behind. This kind of thing never moves evenly. Gaddafi says every Libyan is entitled to a car, and all day long you get the feeling they already all have one. And they are ordering more, in spite of the fact that cars in Libya cost about Twice what they do most places. These cars are a symbol of progress, maybe. In any event, no one rides a camel anymore. Another radical plank in Gaddafi's philosophy is that every Libyan is entitled to a house, but no Libyan is entitled to more than one. The government will help you to buy your home if you have been a renter, or will build you one if you never had one. It's great for the construction industry. This apartment project was designed and built by Italians. When Gaddafi took power, he threw out 60,000 Italians who had stayed on after the former colony became independent. Some of them have since been hired back as contract workers. The money flows like a light This hospital, for instance, more modern than many in Western Europe or America. There's free medical service for all. And a quarter of a billion dollars for Tripoli's international airport, also designed and built by Italians. No stinting anywhere. Gaddafi provides practically unlimited money for education. This university, built by the British, is in the second city, Benghazi. The country's street signs and all advertisements are in Arabic, but a large part of the university curriculum is taught in English. Arabic texts are not yet available. Have all these social reforms and development programs made Gaddafi loved by all Libyans? No, there are many anti-Gaddafi Libyans. We are here to protest. But most are outside Libya in a resistance movement against him. They told us Gaddafi was a military dictator who takes away the people's freedom and confiscates private property, that while he shows off his humble life in a desert tent, he does not show us his 4 villas and his multimillion-dollar yacht. The dissidents say he also does not live a true Islamic life. He violates the Koran by killing his opponents. They also say when the oil runs out, Libya will It will return to the poverty of the early '50s, without even any significant upgrading of its agriculture. We found evidence the dissidents are wrong in the case of agriculture. We went to the province of Fezzan, in the heart of the Sahara, 1,000 miles south of Tripoli. Here, while attending high school, Gaddafi began to dream and plan his revolution. We found a farmer who may not be typical, but is He's certainly happy. His local people's committee helped him get 12.5 acres and water. His obligation: to do a good job of farming. On that condition, he can keep his profits. With the farm as a grant goes a house, a car, camels for milk and meat. He also gets a tractor and, for a while, a yearly salary. Understandably, he supports the Gaddafi revolution. The American presence used to be big jets at Wheeler Air Force Base. In 1970, Gaddafi threw them out. But now there's a kind of truce, a marriage of convenience. These are American pilots hired on contract to fly crop dusters. They're going to be moved. Like many other Americans, they aren't very happy in Libya, with restrictions on their movements and the absence of alcohol. But they are there, not flying military missions, but buzzing the oat and barley fields. And the oil business, the source of Gaddafi's wealth and his arms and his influence, has still a definite American complexion at management levels and foreign workers at all levels. Libya was the first to increase oil prices. The first to get American companies to give the host nation a larger share of profits. Gaddafi was the first to use oil as a weapon and a threat. In spite of all that, the Americans who helped Libya find and develop its oil are still there. The boss of this concession is Charles Douglas of Occidental Petroleum, who is very candid about why the 2 nationalities need each other.

Speaker 6: It's It's—

Speaker 4: the money is good. And that's the name of the game, whether we like it or not, is money. But the game has turned ugly. This is the American Embassy in Tripoli, burned out in the wave of violence that hit the Muslim world after the Iranians seized the embassy and hostages in Tehran. Gaddafi did little to prevent the troubles in Tripoli. This symbolizes his ambivalence toward the United States. He resents the embargo that keeps him from getting American military-related equipment. Gaddafi says we have put Libya on a blacklist, and he constantly threatens to turn off the oil.

Muammar Qaddafi: This good policy towards America will not be permanent and will not go longer if America still Acts against us as enemy and put us in the blacklist.

Speaker 4: It might affect, uh, Libya's willingness to sell oil to the United States?

Muammar Qaddafi: Yes, of course.

Speaker 4: Like a prince out of the Arabian Nights, Gaddafi rides off, leaving behind the question: at what point can the United States afford to antagonize any man?

Speaker 6: Good evening. Last week, the Reagan administration ordered all Libyan diplomats to leave the United States in 5 days, and last night they left. Officially, the United States government charged Libya with, quote, a general pattern of unacceptable conduct. Off the record, U.S. officials made a lengthy indictment of Libyan efforts to foment international terrorism by funding, training, and arming a wide variety of terrorist movements. The U.S. also condemned Libya's invasion and occupation of the neighboring country of Chad and blamed the Libyan government for the murders of dissident Libyans living abroad. Privately, the United States government is also worried about the close relations between Libya and the Soviet Union, resulting in large-scale Soviet arms supplies to Libya. So far, Libyan reaction to the diplomats' expulsion has been muted. One weapon in her grasp is oil. Libya is the 3rd largest supplier of U.S. oil imports. representing 4.5% of US consumption, or half a million barrels a day. Tonight we talk directly to the man in charge of Libya, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, speaking by satellite from his office outside Tripoli, the Libyan capital.

Speaker 3: Jim?

Speaker 5: Robin, Colonel Gaddafi holds no official title as Libya's chief of state. He's known only as the leader of the great 1st of September Revolution. That is the revolution of 1969, when he and a group of other young army officers overthrew the then king of Libya and established a new Libyan Arab Republic. His rule of Libya, a nation of 3 million people that is 92% desert, has brought him very mixed, starkly contrasting reviews. To his supporters, he's a visionary attempting to forge a united Arab front based on Islamic principles and his own so-called Green Book, a new international theory as an alternative to capitalism and communism. But to his detractors, he's a menace, a maniac, a supporter and exporter of terrorism, murder, and revolution. One point of information about our interviewing him tonight: in exchange for Colonel Gaddafi's agreeing to have it conducted in English without a translator, we agreed to submit our major questions in writing in advance. That was with the proviso, of course, that spontaneous follow-up questions be permitted. But here again, in order to eliminate the need for translation, We have agreed to try and keep them as simple and short as possible. Robin?

Speaker 6: Colonel Qaddafi, do you hear me?

Speaker 4: Do you hear me?

Muammar Qaddafi: Yes, I hear you.

Speaker 6: What kind of relationship do you want now with the United States?

Muammar Qaddafi: Anyhow, I want a normal relationship with the United States, as any other relation with any other state in the world, particularly the relationship with any big power like Soviet Union or other, other big states in the world. Just, I won't.

Speaker 6: Do you consider your relations normal now with the United States?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, of course it is not normal.

Speaker 6: How do you expect your relations to change with the expulsion of your diplomats?

Muammar Qaddafi: First of all, we have no diplomats. It is a popular bureau formed by the Libyan people. I didn't sign any paper regarding this bureau. I didn't point any one of them. They have chosen by the people themselves. They are not diplomats. And I think the masses that formed this People's Bureau will form another one in America. We have thousands of students in United States of America. I think they will form a new one instead of this closed bureau. It is the responsibility of the masses, because there is jemahiriyyah. The authority is in the hand of the people itself.

Speaker 6: So you don't consider the men who have been expelled by the United States as diplomats?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, we have no diplomats in the world at all after the authority of The people since 1977, when the authority of the people took place in that time. We have no government, no ministries, no Ministry of Foreign Affairs, no Minister of Affairs. Here in Tripoli also there is a popular committee which is responsible for the Foreign Affairs, and it is a link between the people, the Libyan people, and the other states and peoples in the, in the world. It is not an official department.

Speaker 5: Colonel, what kind of retaliation can the United States expect for the expulsion?

Muammar Qaddafi: I don't expect it now, anything, because it It is not a serious step. We lost nothing. It is only— it is not a reasonable step from United States of America against a state like my country. And there is no justification to expel this population.

Speaker 3: Thank you.

Muammar Qaddafi: Popular Bureau from your country, because it is to link good relationship between Libyan people and American people. And the government of America has no right to cross this Popular Bureau. I think it is against the interests of United America. I think it is against the interests of the United States. United States of America itself, not against my country. I am not nervous. I am very quiet, very calm now. But I am sorry to see big power like America behaves childish behavior like this and jump in aisle, jump in aisle or childish behavior like this. It is not suitable for a big power like America to do this.

Speaker 5: So you do not intend then to use oil as a weapon of retaliation?

Muammar Qaddafi: It is another matter. Oil is, uh, our, and it is a weapon in our hands. We have the full right to use it when it is necessary.

Speaker 5: But it's not necessary now, in your opinion.

Muammar Qaddafi: It is due to the Libyan people itself through the basic popular congresses. They may discuss this matter and decide what is suitable and what is right.

Speaker 6: Robert? Colonel Gaddafi. There are some 200— 2,000 Americans living in Libya. Can you assure their safety and freedom, or should they now leave your country?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, they are our guests, and they are people who are helping us, and we are cooperating with them for mutual interests between Libya and America. And nothing will happen to them until the situation deteriorates. I hope it will not be so. Now, I think nothing will be towards these people who are here now. We are not like America. We have We are wise. We have responsibility towards others and towards the world. We are a nation of civilization, not like America. We behave very, very calm and rightful, and I think nothing will hurt them. I think the most important thing is that we have to You say, until the situation deteriorates.

Speaker 6: What did you mean by that? Deteriorates in what way?

Muammar Qaddafi: It is in the side of America. May United States of America deteriorate itself, the situation, by any new childish manner, childish behavior, like what is happening now. Because this step of closing our Bobiro Bureau in America, it is without any justification. It is an unreasonable action. And according to this, America might do some steps like this, which is not a responsible action.

Speaker 6: Are you expecting some further action by the United States against you? I'll repeat, I'll repeat that question. Are you expecting some further action by the United States against you?

Muammar Qaddafi: No one can expect what the United status of America can do, because the policy of America is not a reasonable policy. It is out of any international responsibility. And I think that America has no right to do anything against my country, because we do what is right, what is justice, what is our right. I think that the Colonel, you are anti-communist.

Speaker 5: How do you explain your close relationship, then, with the Soviet Union?

Muammar Qaddafi: It is not necessary if I am not a communist that my relation will be bad with the Soviet Union. My relation is very good with Soviet Union. Soviet Union is our friend. And I am not a communist, not capitalist. I am socialist, Jamahiri, progressive. I don't see any contradiction between my Good relationship with the United States, with the Soviet Union, and because I am not a communist.

Speaker 5: You share?

Muammar Qaddafi: Yes.

Speaker 5: I was going to ask you if you were going to ask you share the Soviet Union's basic political goals in the world. In the world.

Speaker 6: Pardon?

Speaker 3: Would you repeat this question?

Speaker 4: Yes, sir.

Speaker 5: Do you share the Soviet Union's basic political goals in the world?

Speaker 3: Yeah, let me ask it another way.

Speaker 5: The Soviet— are you and the Soviet Union— do you and the Soviet Union agree, uh, in political terms as to what, uh, the future of the world should hold?

Muammar Qaddafi: I say I understand, you know. No, sometimes we agree about some international matters, and sometimes we disagree, because Soviet Union is Soviet Union, and Libya is Libya. Every one of us has his own interests and has his own strategy in the world, and his different policy and social system and political system, which is different also. But he is our friend, besides of all this.

Speaker 5: Is the— we have read the figure here in the United States that you have purchased $12 billion in arms from the Soviet Union. Is that correct, sir?

Muammar Qaddafi: I don't know exactly the number, but is it true or not? But anyhow, we buy weapons from Soviet Union and from other countries like Britain, Italy, and France, and China, and other, other countries.

Speaker 5: It's been suggested that, that many of those arms that you have bought have been placed there as a kind of staging area for the Soviet Union. Is that true?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, of course it is not true. We, we, we have weapons only for defense for our service, and these weapons are not enough now for sufficient defense. We need more weapons to defend our country. And we will not allow Soviet Union to store any weapons for he— for it in my country. We refuse such things.

Speaker 6: Military commentators say that you already have far more arms and tanks and planes than your army of 40,000 men could possibly ever use. Use?

Muammar Qaddafi: We have armed people. We are going now to get rid of the regular army. The regular army will disappear in this jama'ahiri society, jama'ahiriyya, the state of masses. The state of masses will have no regular army.

Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Muammar Qaddafi: No government. Now there is no government, and the regular army will disappear. Therefore, we need weapons for the people, the armed people. Every citizen must have weapon, not in his house, but in the store. And he need it in time of defense for his— Defense?

Speaker 6: Defense from what, Colonel Gaddafi?

Muammar Qaddafi: Against whom, you mean?

Speaker 6: Against whom, yes.

Muammar Qaddafi: Against any enemy who might attack my country, might attack my people. My people must be armed and be ready to face any aggression.

Speaker 6: How do you answer charges that Libya is involved in promoting and supporting and training international terrorists?

Muammar Qaddafi: This accusation without any justification, also no evidence that we support or promote terrorism. We are against terrorism absolutely, and we should a law very severe law against. Any terrorist action. Therefore, we are absolutely against terrorism. But now we must clarify the meaning of terrorism. What is that terrorism? We consider the manufacturing of new The development of nuclear weapon is a terrorist action. And establishing foreign military bases in the land of others, it is also terrorism. And then make peoples suffering from famine, to keep food for them.

Speaker 3: Thank you.

Muammar Qaddafi: It is also terrorism. And hijacking airplanes and seize honest people to be victim for this action, it is also terrorism. But it is very small, very small one in the comparison.

Speaker 7: I see.

Muammar Qaddafi: Because of the big action of terrorism, which America is doing now, by threatening others by its fleets, by its bases, by famine, people keeping wheat not to sell and to give to the poor people, and so on.

Speaker 6: It is— It's frequently reported that— let me list some of the places you are said to have given assistance to some of the so-called terrorists and ask if it's true. Did you not train and later give sanctuary to the terrorists who attacked the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics?

Speaker 3: No.

Muammar Qaddafi: We have— We haven't any relation with this, with this accident. And we heard about it in the media, as you heard.

Speaker 6: But you deny that? No.

Muammar Qaddafi: We have no intention or no decision to do such bad things. We are against which is considered as terrorism. But we support the struggle of the peoples for their freedom, for their independence, like the people of Palestine. We support its struggle, because it is a just cause. We support the justice.

Speaker 6: Do you give— excuse me. Do you give support to the Irish Republican Army?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, no support, no material support, but spiritual one. We, yes, we consider it is, it is, it is just a cause, because Ireland is Ireland and Britain is Britain. The existence of Britain in this place is colonization. And our evidence is the struggle which is going now severely in this area, and this, this leaders of the Irish Army who are dying now of hunger in the jail. For this cause. They have cause. They have justice cause. They want to be independent.

Speaker 6: Did you send support to the Italian Red Brigades?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, we are against the Red Brigades, and we consider them a group— a terrorist group, in fact.

Speaker 6: To the guerrillas in El Salvador?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, it is far from us. And we support the people of Salvador. We hope these people will succeed to restore its stability and dignity and freedom. We support the people. But no relationship between us and these people. It is far from us. And we have no— nothing to do with it now.

Speaker 5: It has also been charged, Colonel, that your government has sent killer squads to assassinate Libyans living abroad, of whom 11 have been killed. Is that true?

Muammar Qaddafi: First of all, we have no government. There are some few people, Libyan people, Who are royal, royal ones. And they got big quantities of money and got out. This money belonged to the Libyan people. And they did some crimes against their country. And they are still in power. And they support now the foreign intelligence against the security of Libya. And therefore, the revolutionary committees, they hold a court, revolutionary court, made decision and decided To punish some of them, they will be they will be judged to death or sentenced to death or something like this. There are very few people. It is according to the judge of this the judgment of this revisionary court.

Speaker 5: Do you support that effort?

Muammar Qaddafi: Excuse me, is it clear?

Speaker 3: Is the answer clear?

Speaker 5: Yes, I was just wondering if you personally supported that. I noticed that you said some time ago that you ordered Libyan exiles to return home or they would be executed. I assume that you support this effort to execute these people then?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, I didn't say like this. I told them to— they must come back to be safe, to be safe, yes. Otherwise, I can't protect them abroad. Therefore, the Revolutionary Committees may be after them, and they may eliminate them.

Speaker 3: Right.

Muammar Qaddafi: I declared that if you come back to your country, you will be safety— safe or safety, I guarantee you. But outside, no one can protect you. That I did. I declared.

Speaker 5: The FBI— The FBI— —here in the United States, Colonel, says that your government was behind the attempted assassination of a man here in our state of Colorado, a Libyan exile. Is that true? It was an attempted assassination. The man lived.

Speaker 3: I don't— it is—

Muammar Qaddafi: I don't think it is true, and I didn't hear about this accident. But I can assure that no one will be killed outside without justice and a revolutionary trial.

Speaker 6: Colonel Gaddafi, many countries in Africa and in Europe are worried that your armed military intervention in the neighboring country of Chad means that you plan to annex Chad and maybe the Niger and other countries in your enlarged Libyan Pan-Islamic Republic. What are your aims in Africa?

Muammar Qaddafi: We have no plan towards this area. We want stability, independence, progression for all this continental and for all these countries, particularly in Africa. It is our continent. Continental. We have no other intention towards this area.

Speaker 6: Why did you say, when your troops went into Chad, that Chad was part of Libya's needed living space?

Muammar Qaddafi: No, it is not true. I said the security of Chad It touches the security of Libya, of course. But we sent our troops to Chad in accordance with the mutual defense— defense, yes— agreement of defense between us and the national government of Chad, and according to the request of this government to help it for stability and for peace. Yes. And my troops put an end for a civil war which continued about 20 years. And now this civil war ended. And now Chad is living in peace. Peace and security, and then now is turning to build itself after stopping this war.

Speaker 6: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but Colonel Gaddafi, our time for this interview is up. Thank you very much for joining us, and from Tripoli, Libya, this evening, good night. First tonight, we talked to Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak yesterday said there was a very clear connection between Libya and the hijacking of the EgyptAir plane to Malta. As a show of force, Egypt has reinforced its military presence along its border with Libya and declared a state of alert. Libya has denied the charges, but there's been no statement from Colonel Gaddafi himself until now. I talked by satellite with Gaddafi in the Libyan capital of Tripoli earlier today. Colonel Gaddafi, thank you for joining us.

Muammar Qaddafi: Thank you.

Speaker 6: Did Libya play a role in the EgyptAir hijacking this week?

Speaker 3: It is far from the reality. It is very strange to, to look for any relation between Libya and this hijacking. Sadly, sadly, event. And you know our policy and our moral is absolutely against hijacking plans, and we are against. This kind of action or even struggle. We support the just causes of the freedom in the world. We are very, very sorry to hear about this bloody and sad event that took place in Malta. Thank you. The president of Djibouti is responsible— responsible for this sad event.

Speaker 6: Why is he responsible?

Speaker 3: Because he killed many innocent people, the hostages in the airplane. He's responsible for this loss of life.

Speaker 6: He says that there is a very clear connection between your country and the hijackers.

Speaker 3: We challenge anyone to provide any evidence to prove it is true. I am sure there is no relationship between Libya and this evidence of hijacking.

Speaker 6: Cairo Radio said you provided the funding and the incitement.

Speaker 3: It is just propaganda, but I don't think, and all the world doesn't think, this action needed any money or any financing.

Speaker 6: How do you explain that your ambassador in Malta went to the plane as it was hijacked on the runway And had some talks with the hijackers, and then was recalled to Tripoli. How do you explain that?

Speaker 3: Why don't ask why the ambassador of America and ambassador of Greece and ambassador of Egypt, ambassador of Algeria, for example, all of them were there in the airport, and it is I think in accordance with the. Demand of the Maltese government to help, or the the hijacks themselves may they demanded these people to talk with them. But it means nothing for my country if we accuse Libya. We can accuse in the same time America and Egypt and other countries which their ambassadors were there.

Speaker 6: Egypt says that the hijackers were an anti-Arafat group of Palestinians led by the man known as Abu Nidal. Do you agree that that is the group?

Speaker 3: It does nothing. We have no— we have no information about the nationalities of these Bibi. Bibi. And, you know, there are many Palestinian frontiers against each other, but as in according— in accordance with the declaration that they made, they are Egyptians. They belong to Egyptian revolutionary movement called Revolution of Egypt or something like this. The airplane is Egyptian, the hijackers are Egyptians, and the troopers that attacked these innocent people and killed them are Egyptians. The whole responsibility is Egyptian one.

Speaker 6: The man who is being held in Malta, the wounded man, whom some former passengers on the plane identified as the leader of the hijackers, is said by the Maltese to be a Tunisian.

Speaker 3: What do we have to do with this, if he's Tunisian or not? Why ask me about this one?

Speaker 6: Let us talk about the consequences. Egypt is reported to have sent military reinforcements to its border with Libya. What have you done on your border?

Speaker 3: Everything in our side is normal. We have no troops there. And if Egypt launches a war against the borders of Libya, that means it will attack It will attack civilian targets, cities, and civilian people. We have no troops there, no military goals there, and everything in our side is normal. And we don't take these military Egyptian movements seriously, because we see no justification for war between the 2 countries. Thank you.

Speaker 6: You do not expect an Egyptian attack on Libya?

Speaker 3: Of course, because there is no— there is no justification at all. Otherwise, these people are mad.

Speaker 6: Are you confident that if you ordered it to, that your army would come out of its bases and fight Egypt?

Speaker 3: Sorry, sorry. We have no intention at all to fight against Egypt, because Egyptian army is an Arabic one, and officers and Egyptian soldiers are our brothers.

Speaker 6: It has been reported that you do not trust your own army, because when you left— ordered them to make a raid against Tunis— Tunisia, they, in fact, turned around and attempted to attack you, but that was stopped.

Speaker 3: It is a funny thing. How you believe that? First of all, we didn't— order our army to attack Tunis at all. There were— there was no reason for war between Libya and Tunis. And if I order my army, they can do. And all these officers who are controlling the army I ordered them in 1969 to throw the King Idris and to change the whole system of Libya from the monarchy to a republic. They accepted.

Muammar Qaddafi: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: My order. In that time, I was a lieutenant.

Speaker 6: It was widely noted that on the 16th anniversary of that revolution you just referred to, the 16th anniversary in September, for the first time you did not have a military parade. The army stayed away in its base, and there was speculation that you were worried that if the army came out of its base, there might be a revolt against you.

Speaker 3: First of all, I— you must know it is impossible for a Beret to, uh, to make a coup, because it is Beret for Beret. These troops are for Beret, without weapons, without ammunition anyhow in all the world. How I fear of this coup? How do you fear it? And I am among my people everywhere, among my soldiers everywhere. And we deliberately make— made a parade of production, industrial and agricultural, and parade of our revolutionary force.

Muammar Qaddafi: Right.

Speaker 3: The masses, the revolutionary committees everywhere, to show to the world our revolutionary force and our protective force. And our army is available also and ready.

Speaker 6: Do you fear to be overthrown? You have many You have many unfriendly countries around you now, whereas you used to have friendly countries. For instance, Tunisia. After expelling all the Tunisian workers abruptly, Tunis is now an unfriendly country. Tunisia is now an unfriendly country to you. Egypt is not a friendly country. President Reagan is reported to have authorized the CIA to assist in clandestine or covert Do you fear that your regime may be ended by a coup?

Speaker 3: I am not afraid, and it is not my regime. It is the— it is people's regime. You must know the system, political system in Libya is people's— based on people's conferences and people's committees everywhere. The authority now is in the hands of The Libyan people, not in my hand. I am not a president to make a coup against me. If I am out of Libya, the revolutionary system, the popular system, which is based on people's conferences and people's committees, are still strong, and no one can make a coup against the whole people who is carrying on the authority now in Libya. It is Jamahiriyya. Yeah. The state of masses. There is no government to make a coup against it, no president to make a coup against it, no ruling party to make a coup against it. But this also these countries are not my enemy. We distinguish between the rulers, governments, and the peoples. The peoples. People are with me— Tunisian people, Egyptian people, Chadian people. All these peoples support me and support my revolution. And it— we are not concerned about the standards of the governments and the rulers. They will disappear in future. Thank you.

Speaker 6: Are you— would you like to help them disappear? Let's take President Mubarak. You call President Mubarak a traitor to the Arab cause for making— continuing the deal with the peace with Israel. Do you— what do you want to do with President Mubarak? Do you want to overthrow him?

Speaker 3: If he is still supporting our enemy, And this support will create danger for the future of our nation. We have to support the Egyptian people and incite this people to make revolution. And to form the Arab unity, and Arabs must stand in one rank against their enemies. And now the demonstrations are starting against Mubarak regime, and the Egyptian people is against him, and all these peoples around us are against this government. These traitors and these reactionary political systems, and they will disappear anyhow, with me or without me.

Speaker 6: So you— your policy is to incite the Egyptian people to rise against Mubarak, is it?

Speaker 3: My policy is a revolutionary one. For liberation, for unity.

Speaker 6: Well, you think that you have the right to send an assassination squad into Egypt to try to assassinate the former Libyan prime minister. Such a squad was caught by Egyptian authorities earlier this month.

Speaker 3: First of all, this person, I sent him And allowed him to go there, and he means nothing. And he— if he wants to come back, no one will do anything against him, because he's zero now. And anyhow, I am against assassination.

Speaker 6: You are against assassination?

Speaker 3: Pardon?

Speaker 6: You are against assassination?

Speaker 3: Same against assassination. You must know this.

Speaker 6: Well, it was not a Libyan squad that the Egyptians arrested just as they were about to move in to assassinate your former prime minister in a country house in Egypt?

Speaker 3: It is an individual responsibility.

Speaker 6: I didn't understand. I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: I mean, it is an individual responsibility, personal responsibility. People in Libya have the right to do what they want.

Speaker 6: That was just somebody acting on his own, you mean?

Speaker 3: Pardon?

Speaker 6: You are saying that assassination group was just a group of Libyans acting on their own?

Speaker 3: Yes.

Speaker 6: And the to come back to the hijack incident this week, the hijack incident was not an example of using force to achieve Arab unity.

Speaker 3: No, I told you I am against hijacking planes and to keep hostages. To keep innocent people. I am against this. You must know my mother is revolutionary one, revolutionary one. I support the revolution.

Speaker 6: What do you see as the possibility of improving your relations with the United States?

Speaker 3: We declared many times we are ready to resume our relations with the United States of America, but the American administration refused many times to resume these relations. We are sorry to, to go to this conclusion.

Speaker 6: Did you believe the report that was in the press here that President Reagan had approved a CIA covert activity against you? Did you believe that when you read that report?

Speaker 3: I think it is true. And it is a political scandal, like the scandal of Watergate. And I— we are waiting to see Reagan to be trialed in the court, because he acted against the Constitution and against the American laws.

Speaker 6: How?

Speaker 3: Because American law doesn't give their president the right to make conspiracies of assassination against other heads of states in the world. And he did that. That means he violated the American law and American Constitution. He must be tried.

Speaker 6: Coming back to your revolution, is the economic situation in Libya, your oil revenues having gone down dramatically over the last 4 years, is that undermining the popularity of your revolution?

Speaker 3: No, no, no, because my people is in the authority. The authority is in the hands of my people, and they know the crisis, economic crisis in the world. The people knows every— very well the problem of oil and how many money can they get every year and what they want, because It is not the responsibility of a government. In Libya, there is no government. All the people is government. The people's congresses, people's committees are everywhere. And all these things are in the hands of the people. The people ask itself. No other one is responsible. They know everything, and they are responsible for everything in Libya.

Speaker 7: Behind the infamy they've endured since their revolution in 1969 Libyans have proved themselves a resilient people. Today, they celebrate the 25th anniversary of one of the most controversial characters in the world. Whilst much has changed since Gaddafi emerged as the leader of the revolution a quarter of a century ago, the world's attitude towards him and his country has only worsened. Today, Libya and its people face Hey, hey, hey! 4 times a week, thousands of Libyans and expatriates endure a 6-hour queue under the North African sun as they wait for the ferry to Malta. The U.N. sanctions imposed 2 years ago mean that the sea journey from Tripoli is the most efficient method of travel abroad. Such restrictions raise more than 10%. Inflation grows and the economy suffers.

Speaker 1: What are you, animals or bloody humans?

Speaker 7: Although always accompanied by government minders, the visitor finds plenty of surprising aspects to Gaddafi's Libya. Oil revenues The reforms have made this country and its people more prosperous than their North African neighbors. Satellite dishes abound. The American station CNN has tens of thousands of Libyan viewers. Widespread homeownership is a principle of the state that appears to be put into practice. Landlords are illegal, so Libyans are encouraged to buy their own homes. In this housing project 20 kilometers outside Tripoli, people live in conditions that would be the envy of any country in the Arab world. The young families who live here have much to be thankful for, and they ascribe their good fortune to the revolution and their leader. Previously, a young man like me would not be able to marry and have a house like us.

Speaker 1: I'm so happy.

Speaker 7: Life was so difficult. My father suffered a lot from being a worker on wages, paying rent.

Speaker 1: Now everything is available.

Speaker 7: Life has changed in every aspect. Gaddafi wrote down his political formula in what every Libyan knows as the Green Book. And usually, for this part of the world, Gaddafi's Green Book demands equality for women. The Green Book gave women a big voice.

Muammar Qaddafi: Previously, they were just objects. The Green Book gave women their rights. Now they can build, carry guns, fly a plane, drive a car.

Speaker 7: or join the army.

Muammar Qaddafi: In all fields, we're treated equally with men.

Speaker 7: Despite at least 3 coup attempts and a number of failed assassination bids, Gaddafi, the idealistic leader of 4.5 million, still has support from many Libyans. The Green Book is Gaddafi's Bible. In it, he calls for a strict socialist system of rule and lays out a plan for a society where everyone is equal. Gaddafi's support for violent movements around the world provoked the United States in 1986 to bomb Gaddafi's home. It was in revenge for a terrorist attack in Germany, which it now appears the Libyans may have had nothing to do with. Nevertheless, the Green Book clearly outlines Gaddafi's enthusiasm for such movements. Today, the ruin is kept as a memorial to those who died. Amongst the dead, her bedroom preserved in her memory, Gaddafi's one-and-a-half-year-old daughter Hannah.

Muammar Qaddafi: Nous l'avons laissé pour que les gens qui viennent visiter regardent ce que les Américains ont fait. Et vandalisme et terrorisme. Just look what they did. Et voir ce que les Américains ont fait ici chez nous.

Speaker 7: It was April 1986.

Muammar Qaddafi: C'était la nuit du 14 avril 1986. Ce que les Américains ont fait. The very Americans who speak of humanity and democracy.

Speaker 7: But look, these are the results of what they really do.

Muammar Qaddafi: De la démocratie, etc.

Speaker 7: Mais voilà le résultat, ce qu'ils ont fait. Today, Libya's Foreign Ministry. Has toned down Gaddafi's sponsorship of the world's radical young fighters.

Muammar Qaddafi: We're making the decisions, and we are making the mistakes, too, not only the achievements. And we have nobody to blame except ourselves.

Speaker 3: What is the role of Colonel Gaddafi, then, in all this business? Why is he there? I think he has a very serious problem. He is an idealist man in a world that is everything except ideal. He wanted the people, especially the poor people, the people who used to walk barefooted and persecuted by every government, to become the masters. And he turned the pyramid of authority upside down.

Speaker 7: قدامي's unique plan has backfired. And though few go hungry at home, people here are starved of freedom. The grassroots utopian ideals are forced upon the Libyan population with an iron fist. Nobody is free to speak out.

Speaker 1: How do you think about your leader, Colonel Gaddafi?

Speaker 3: After 25 years, there are many achievements.

Speaker 7: We thank God we are having a good life from our country's resources. قدامي has brought to his rule something of the uncompromising life of the Bedouin. He was born in a tent and spends months each year roaming the desert. Human rights is a word not mentioned in the open. Society is controlled by popular committees, supposedly nominated by the people. In reality, they have become a dangerous and deadly force of control, with few limits to their powers.

Muammar Qaddafi: The regime is very oppressive, and the risk is very high. The students of the revolution committees in Al-Fatah University and in Benghazi University have actually tried fellow students and hanged them in the university grounds. This happened during the students' revolution. And also we heard about a teacher who has been tried by his students and hanged to death.

Speaker 7: As Gaddafi celebrates 25 years in power, He'll be receiving no guests through Tripoli Airport. Accused of protecting the 2 men who blew up the Lockerbie jet in 1988, Libyan airlines are unlikely to fly in the near future. And with the hardening of UN resolve, even the ships waiting to come into Tripoli port may soon go, leaving Libyans to depend entirely on their own resources. And they are unlikely to receive sympathy from Britain, having previously armed the IRA. Today, that's a decision the Libyans say they regret, and one made in a moment of anger following the bombing of Gaddafi's house.

Muammar Qaddafi: This Irish problem, we got into it accidentally. If Britain and America can practice revenge, why can't Libyans practice it? So we went there.

Speaker 3: And supported them again because they are the only people who can hit the British. We don't have any ballistic missiles. We don't have strategic planes. We don't have submarines. We don't have nuclear weapons. We don't have any means of inflicting the same suffering the British and the Americans inflicted on us.

Muammar Qaddafi: فلا تناخوا يتلها ولا