Assata Shakur - Interview in Havana (1992)

Assata Shakur: I was imprisoned. I was shot with my hands in the air. I was accused of a wide variety of crimes, all of which, with the exception of the murder of a New Jersey state trooper, I was acquitted. I was tried for the murder of a New Jersey state trooper by an all-white Jury in a highly prejudiced county where something like 70% of those polled already believed I was guilty. I was tried in the press for years. I was subsequently convicted. I was sentenced to life plus 30 years in prison, plus 30 years because I would not stand up for the judge. I spent 6 and a half years in prison. 2 of those 6 and a half years I spent in solitary confinement in men's prisons, which was against New Jersey law. But nevertheless, that's where I was sent, and that's where I spent 2 years. And I subsequently escaped. I came to Cuba in 1984. I've been here ever since. I have written one book, which is an autobiography. Autobiography. I am now working on another book which is about the ideological development of the Black liberation movement in the United States. And so I would like to just open up the floor for people's questions, whether they're about Cuba, whether they're about me, whether they're about whatever. Let's see here.

Speaker 2: Is your book available?

Assata Shakur: Yes, it is. It's published by HarperCollins. It's published by Lawrence Hill. It's available in most leftist kind of bookstores in the United States, African American bookstores, and available in England, and it's published in several other languages now.

Speaker 2: Are the people in the States your sympathizers and supporters who are still working on your case? And if so, have they gotten—

Speaker 3: Are the supporters of the state still working on using Freedom of Information Act to get access to police files or anything of that sort?

Assata Shakur: There are so many political prisoners, approximately 100, and resources are very thin. And, you know, I mean, there are not that many resources, so that most of the effort of people who supported me is now directed toward supporting Supporting other political prisoners. And, um, like, there have been— for example, if I had, uh, not escaped, I would next year be in prison. It would be 20 years.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Assata Shakur: Sundia Ada Okoli, who was, uh, arrested with me, who was on the case with me, has been in prison almost 20 years. It's been 19 years. There are other Political prisoners who have been in prison for 20 years, others 21, and others 22 years. For example, Gerard Momo Pratt will soon be in prison 22 years, and even though there's an enormous amount of evidence pointing to the fact that A, he was framed, B, the government knows he was framed, He's completely innocent. He's completely innocent. I mean, there have been specials given by— what is that program? 60 Minutes. He's been on 60 Minutes. Agents, FBI agents, have come forward and said that they know that he is innocent, that he was in fact framed by the government. The FBI The FBI has made statements saying that they— he was supposed to have been, and now that there are many people who are testifying that he was at a meeting of the Black Panther Party during the time when the crime was supposedly committed miles and miles away, more than 500 miles away. And the FBI says that even though he was under day-to-day surveillance, they started keeping records the day after the event, and those Other records disappeared. So we're dealing with blatant, blatant violations of not only people's human rights, but of their civil rights, you know. And people are very unaware in the United States of the fact that, A, that they are political prisoners, and B, that these political prisoners have been imprisoned basically since the early '70s.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Assata Shakur: Some of them since the late '60s. And I mean, it's criminal that they are there. And part of the reason that I believe that they are still there and that there's so little work being done around political prisoners is, A, because the government still maintains a kind of COINTELPRO program, which part of that COINTELPRO program under another name is dedicated to minimizing and criminalizing the Black liberation movement, African people, and so that there within the left is a kind of idea that these people must have done something, or they're infantile leftists who are not worthy of being supported, and that these people are really not political priorities. But my question is, if we accept the government's definition of who people who struggle are, then we are in fact negating the legitimacy of the Puerto Rican liberation struggle, of the Black liberation movement, and of those anti-imperialists who have shown solidarity with oppressed people in the United States, of those people who— and I mean, the people are in prison for being part of the anti-nuclear movement, for being activists in all segments of the movement. So it's not just one segment of the movement that is represented in terms of political prisoners. In my case, getting back to your question, I think that given the current administration administration, given the right-wing nature of the U.S. government, which seems to be moving closer and closer to fascism, there is very little hope that any court will give me justice. And I think that the same applies to other people who have been victimized by the government. I think that the only way That most political prisoners will be freed is that there is a massive popular movement which demands amnesty for all of those political prisoners. And I think that in my case, I would fall under that amnesty act. But I think that— I mean, it would take a great deal of massive action to be able to do that. I don't know if I answered your question. Thank you.

Speaker 6: I'm curious about how you feel right now as an exile. I mean, I would guess, but please tell me if I'm wrong, that as an African American, you probably would feel extremely alienated from a white-dominated society, white supremacist society. And then on the other hand, you're living in exile.

Assata Shakur: I've known many people— I don't feel any great longing to return. I miss— on real terms, I miss African-American culture. I miss friends, family, and that's very real, and that's a kind of gap in my life. But on the other hand, adapting to Cuba, while it hasn't been easy— I've had to learn another language, and you spend the first 3 or 4 years learning another language feeling like an idiot because you really can't communicate and you communicate at such a low level people say, mm-hmm, you know, they kind of see you as an idiot because your conversation is kind of on an idiotic level at first. So I mean the language was a difficult thing to adapt to, but in terms of adapting to Cuba it wasn't so hard because it was like In my life, the first time that I've ever been in agreement with a government that I was in. It's the first time I've ever liked a president. I've ever listened to political speeches intensely. It was the first time I've ever lived in a society that was at peace with itself. I mean, that I felt free to walk down the street, that I felt You know, because I'm weird. I like it if I'm writing maybe 3 o'clock, I'll get the urge to take a walk, and I can do that here. I feel my neighbors look out for me. I feel part of a community, and this is a new experience for me. It's been really a very healing experience for me, actually, because being— You're not alone. An activist in the movement, being a target by the FBI, etc., etc., being in prison. All of those things are harmful things. You know, they do things to your mind, they do things to your body, they do things to your spirit. And you— when I came to Cuba, I for the first time felt I could relax enough to realize the devastating effects of what 30-some years had meant to me growing up and living in a society that was totally hostile to me as a human being, that where I was— had to always look out for myself, always had to watch my back, always had to I always had to look over my shoulder, always had to be alert, always had to watch my pocketbook, look around, you know. I mean, this place for me has been a place where I learned to relax, where I learned to trust people, where I learned— and not to say I just go around trusting everybody, you know, based on nothing, but where my capability to trust other I think that my ability to relate to other people and to reach out to other people has gone to another level, because I think that people don't realize the terrible amount of stress that is a real part of the day-to-day living in the United States, and don't realize that, you know, you're constantly— especially if you live in a city like New York City, In African-American communities, your life is constantly, maybe not on the line, but it's so close to the line that you feel it. You're aware of it. You know that if you walk down a wrong street one day and, you know, there's sirens and you don't realize that there's a siren and you don't look at someone running and you don't duck fast enough, that that might be you. That it might be over, you know.

Speaker 5: And, um—

Assata Shakur: I think that's a very important point. That was one part that was, was wonderful. The other part was my daughter. I have a daughter that's 17, she's soon to be 18, and we were— she was born when I was in prison, and the first time we were together, we were able to form a real mother-daughter, you know, relationship was here in Cuba, and it was very Painful for her, painful for me because we didn't know each other. And even though she knew it wasn't my fault that I wasn't with her, you know, she was angry. You left me, you know, and it was normal, you know. And we worked it through. We formed a very close relationship, and the Cuban people were so supportive and so understanding. I mean, the teacher, you know, the first year she spoke not a word of Spanish. And the teacher knew that it would be very devastating for her to fail. So, I mean, he would come to the house every day, every other day, give her special lessons. People were just so wonderful, you know. I mean, it's everything. I mean, I think that's what's so important. single way, whether it was for— from finding a dancing class, from the neighbors teaching her the Cuban dances. You know, I mean, they were just great. And so we opened up, and we were able to be a family. And that was, I mean, I think a very beautiful part of my life, a very painful part of my life also.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Assata Shakur: But we came through it, and she's doing great. She did wonderful in school here. And so that was another part of my adjusting process in Cuba, and part of the many things that helped me to be a much more complete human being, a much more open human being. And you're a writer.

Speaker 2: The other day when we were talking, you spoke of the pressures of living in the United States and organizing there would take on organization. And you spoke of the need for more of an understanding of the social psychology of organizations and the way people interact. And that's something that many people in the United States have been trying to address, too, about the '60s and the interaction in the different groups. I was wondering if you could develop that a bit.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Assata Shakur: People's political principles and people's personal principles are very closely interrelated and interconnected. And I think that the kind of style of struggling that I was exposed to, and most people were exposed to in the '60s, was a kind of, we're revolutionaries, we must sacrifice, struggle, die if necessary, give our lives for the revolution. But in terms of knowing each other, in terms of forming supportive relationships with each other, in terms of just talking about our families, talking Talking about our backgrounds, talking about our personal problems, that was kind of shoved to the background. People, you know, you go to the meeting, you talk about whatever it is, and you go. And, you know, I have met people that I haven't seen in like 20 years, and they come to kill me. You know, we worked together for years, and I never really knew anything about you, and you never really knew anything about me.

Speaker 7: I'm sorry.

Assata Shakur: Anything about me. And it seems to me that if we're working for social change, then it's not just the structural, systematic economic structure that we have to struggle to change. I think that people who are subjected to extreme oppression Yes. To extreme racism, to extreme sexism, to all kinds of degrading situations, all kinds of humiliating, hostile situations, have to be affected by that. That's real. If you slap me, I feel it. If you insult me on a daily basis, I feel it. And I think that Part of the struggle of oppressed people is, number one, forming more human relationships, and that we have to be able to heal as well as struggle. Because what— I mean, you know, it's not just enough to fight to tear down the old oppressive systems, but at the same time, we have to be building new ways of relating, new values.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Assata Shakur: That are prettier. One of the things that I found with leftists is like I would bring someone— I'll give you a story. A friend of mine, when I joined the Black Panther Party, which wasn't a friend, but she was the one who took me around and we became friendly. She showed me how to sell papers. She showed me the ropes. And so it was like when they told— that's a Oh, it's just too cold to stand out here and sell these Panther papers, and nobody's here, so let's go into this coffee shop and get some coffee. So we were in the place drinking tea. And there were just some people there. We got into a normal conversation, and she started to talk rhetoric. And the people didn't know what she was saying. She was like, Black Panther Party is the vanguard of the people. And they— people didn't know what the vanguard was.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Assata Shakur: They didn't know what the lumpenproletariat was. They didn't know what the lumpenproletariat— and I mean, she turned those people off so fast. I mean, she was like somebody that dropped right out from the moon. I mean, people could not relate to the language she was talking. They couldn't relate to the tone of voice that she was using. They couldn't relate to the arrogance that just poured out of every sentence. And it was Yeah. You know, a moment that was so negative that had just been so pleasant, and in one second it's turning something into something totally negative. So I think that in my life I have seen that repeated in many different ways. You bring people to a political organization, they're energetic, they're angry, they're They want to do things, they want to work, they want to struggle, but then you put them into this kind of political Never Neverland with people talking in rhetoric, in code, in words that normal people don't talk, dealing with them in a totally human— indifferent way. I don't care if I don't care if you didn't sleep last night. I don't care if you have a test on Monday. I don't care if your kids have no babysitter. That is not my problem. And I don't see how you can build a new society based on that kind of human interrelationship, nor do I see how you can build a strong revolutionary movement based on those kinds of interrelationships. So I do think that Changing how we deal with each other and healing is a very important way of— important area of struggle. I think that in the history of the world revolutionary movement, we have often followed European models and To the exclusion of other models of struggle. And I think that one of the things that needs to be done is that the old concepts of that we have all the formulas, that all the areas of struggle are lined up, and that revolution is like this recipe that you just have to follow— well, all of that had— people kind of have I think that's what we're trying to do. I think that's what we're trying to do. But I think that when you look at how stagnated the social sciences have been— sociology— I'm talking about revolutionary social sciences— psychology, sociology, anthropology— because these have all been areas that in I think that many of the socialist countries that have not been developed to any great degree, or they have simply copied models that have been at the forefront in the Western context. So I think that when I talk about healing and when I talk about the social sciences, because I don't see psychology as just belonging to professionals I don't see healing as just belonging to a medical context. I see healing as being a process of community. I see healing as— there must be— people have to rediscover traditional ways of healing that exist in many different societies and combine those traditional ways of healing and traditional ways of psychological adjustment with more Western standard kinds of ways of changing people's psychology, of healing. Because I think that part of what is wrong is that in many countries there is this total alienation In many communities, people have no community. There are no doors that they can open. So you see these people who are so traumatized that they are afraid to talk to anybody, afraid to, to look anybody in the eye, just because of the level of violence. And so that alienation is such a real process that I don't see how we can struggle unless we really deal with that on a On a political level and on a personal level. I think that it is unrealistic to think that there's not going to be anger, that there's not going to be antagonism, that there is not going to be struggle when white folks, black folks, Latinos work together, whether it's in the same organization or out of the same organization. I would be crazy if I said that I am not angry about racism. I would be crazy if I said that I was not affected by racism. In a racist society, in a society that is controlled by white supremacy, then the reality of that is all people who live in that society are affected by it. I— if, you know, I can't live in— I just— it would be crazy for me to say that I have lived in a society for 30-something years— I'm 40-something now, but I'm talking about the years that I lived in the United States— without incorporating feelings of inferiority. I was not responsible for those feelings of inferiority, but I They came from every aspect. I had to— I mean, well, yeah, I had to be affected by them. I had to have internalized them to some degree. My part of my healing process is struggling against them. And I, at this stage, after being a political activist all my life, after being, you know, a person who has consciously tried to struggle against those feelings, I cannot say that that struggle I must struggle against all of the feelings of inferiority, of inadequacy that society has heaped on me as an African and as a woman. The same is true for white people. Now, I think it's crazy for white people to say, I am living in a white society that is— where white supremacy is the religion, is a philosophy, is a way of life. Official and unofficial. It is the policy of the government, it is the policy of the president, it is in all the textbooks, it is in all the movies, it is in all the billboards. To say, I ain't been affected by that, that's a lie. That is totally untrue. So we have to admit that we have all grown up in not only in the same world, That's a reality. That has been controlled by white supremacy, uh, Eurocentrism. That is a reality. What we both have to do is work against that on a personal level and on a political level and to be honest about it. I would be crazy if I said that I, uh, you know, it's like when I was, um, in prison, One of the guards, as she was tearing up my cells, throwing my clothes down, stepping on them, smashing them, said, you don't like white people, do you? I said, why in the world do you think I should like white people? What is it? You know, now, you might— there might be individual white people that I do in fact like because Because of my experiences with them personally. But if you're going to ask me overall, do I like white people, then I would have to say my experience with white people in the United States on an overall general level has not been a friendly face, a helpful hand, an open arm. That has not been my experience. So if I were to If I was to negate that reality and pretend that I had another reality, then I would be in fact sick, crazy. It would be a form of denial. You know, so I think that the way that we work together, the way that we deal with each other, the way that we try to come to some unity is to say, put the cards on the table, to say, let's, let's struggle together. Let's take principled positions. And then after we do a good job of that, after we both work on what our education has been— and that I think is a lifelong process. I don't think that you can reach a point and say, well, I'm not racist, I'm not affected by racism, I am not affected by white supremacy. Because I think that that is to say I am not affected by the I don't think that's a Marxist position.

Speaker 3: About race relations in Cuba and how you've worked through some of the issues that you've just discussed in the U.S. context, and whether you see any significant changes in race relations over this 8 years that you've been here.

Assata Shakur: Well, I'm going to say first of all that I'm never satisfied. You asked me if I am satisfied at the speed and at the level that solving the race problem and the conditions of Africans on this earth, it is never fast enough for me, it is never enough for me. Having said that, let me talk about Cuba. I think that, well, when I first came to Cuba, people were much more, or at least I felt that people were much more hesitant about dealing with the question of race relations, about dealing with problems in Cuba, and about dealing with the history of race relations. In Cuba. I felt that people were much more defensive and that it was like kind of, we're all Cubans. After the— not this last Congress, I think it was the 3rd Congress, which happened shortly after I came here, that changed somewhat. Because Fidel talked about the fact that it was important to deal with race. It was important that the number of people who were in powerful positions should reflect the composition of the population. I feel, and I felt at that time, that Cuba was taking important steps in changing that, giving Afro-Cuban or African-Cuban culture, religion respect that it had not given before. I think that African-Cubans have changed somewhat and become more I think that there's a real interest in identifying with Africa, Asia, and Latin America. I think that in this particular time, although there's— I mean, it's far from being perfect, I think that there's a real interest in dealing with Africa, Asia, and Latin America in a whole other context in terms of studying the ideological input of African Asians and Latin Americans. I think that there is a kind of barefoot, for lack of other words, socialist kind of movement that has— is very young, I think, but that is moving up, that really wants to focus on a third world ideological position that really wants to focus in on the history of Latin America, the history of Africa, the history of Asia in a much more profound way. And I see that as positive. I do not think that it is realistic to think that in 30-something years all of the problems that existed in a I believe that the problems of a society that was based on slave labor for hundreds of years can be solved. I believe that the government has a— and the party have an absolute commitment to eradicating racism. I also feel that in the special period, that that has taken a back burner to survival, in terms of— and I think The struggles of women, many other struggles, even though they are important and interrelated, have been put on the back burner. And now the key issue is for the revolution to survive. So, I mean, that— I don't know if I answered all of your question, but that's kind of a woman's answer.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I just— That just reminded me that we were talking the other day about a little bit about how you felt about your daughter being here and some of the, some of the roles for boys and girls and gender issues. And so I just wondered if you could say a little bit about the difference between sexism or, you know, relations between men and women here and in the States and what your experience has been like about the difference Well, I mean, my daughter was—

Assata Shakur: she's more grown up now— but she was, when she came to Cuba, this like athletic New York kid that plays handball, that's used to punchball, that kind of stuff. And it was, you know, very difficult because much of Basketball. Basketball is very alive and well. And so, you know, like, we would look outside of our window and the boys would be playing basketball and volleyball and what they call 4 corners, which is like a version of punchball. And there would be no girls. You know, girls would be inside doing their homework.

Speaker 6: Homework.

Assata Shakur: Homework. And so it was very frustrating for her in that sense to make an adjustment. Well, she became involved in the— I took her to the stadium where they had classes for girls, and she was like doing track and field. Well, she didn't like that so much, but I mean, it was only— I mean, there were There were great athletes in terms of girls, but it was just like mostly in the sports schools or programs that were geared to developing athletes that would, you know, compete, not just in recreational sports, because boys in Cuba are much more into recreational sports than girls.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Assata Shakur: And there's still kind of attitude where girls stay in the house, where girls don't, uh, are not that physical. And like, we would, you know, a couple of times I would— like one time I actually had to go to the school because, you know, uh, she came home from school one day. She was in the 6th grade. And, uh, I said, well, what did you do? We had gym. So I said, what did you do? I got hit. Well, we ate bread. I said, you ate bread? What do you mean you ate bread? Well, the boys played baseball and we ate bread. So I went to the school and I said, look, bread eating is not a sport. I would like my daughter to, you know, be physically developed. As well as mentally developed, and I believe that's one of the principles of integral development in socialism. So would you please put that into practice? And I don't mean, you know— And so finally the teacher understood, and we got it together, and there was no more incidents of bread eating at gym time. But I mean, it's a struggle, and I think that women have to struggle really It's hard within the revolution to change the day-to-day practice because the family code is real, it exists. When the men in Cuba, they get married, they swear up and down they're going to do this, they're going to do that, and they get home and they, would you please get me a beer? You know what I mean? And women have to struggle because it's, I mean, the love— The love code. Cuban women, for me, are the strongest, most capable human beings probably on the face of the earth. I mean, they work, they do guard duty, they are activists in the CDR, they're activists in the Federation, they do, you know, they're responsible basically for They're responsible for the day-to-day care of children. They're responsible for cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Like, the men on my block, you see them, they're across the street playing dominoes, you know. And sometimes I just make them feel bad, you know. They say, oh, don't come here talking bad about us. But, you know, I mean, it's really— you know, women have really got to struggle, because You know, and under this special period, it's worse because the lines are longer, it takes longer to wait for the bus. And I mean, it's a huge amount of work that women do. And I think that women are responding at a really— you know, the situation itself is forcing women to struggle in ways that they have never struggled before. I think that's a very good point. Before, my neighbor, for the first time she came over to me, she said, I told him he got to go to the store himself. I am not a slave. He can— you know, she went off. And I had never seen her go off like that, but she sure enough went off, and he sure enough went to the store. You know, but I mean, it's the macho culture that the revolution inherited is very deeply deeply embedded, and it, I believe, is going to take a great deal of struggle and solidarity and unity on— between women to get rid of it. But then I also want to put that in a historical context, because like I've talked to women from the Federation, and you know, when I came Down here, it was like, what is this? You know, like it was International Day of Women, and it was like, um, you know, Queens for a Day. You know, they would bring us the trays, and they had little flowers on the trays, and I said, well, where's the militancy? Where's the, you know, and, you know, I couldn't really understand the Federation. I couldn't Let's repeat that. I didn't understand the movement of women until people started to explain to me the reality of where they came from. I mean, people— women who were activists in the Federation at the beginning had to go and literally beg people to let women work in the street. You know, that— I mean, they couldn't talk about equality. They had to talk first about Men helping women because that was the objective reality where they were. And so that it was a process that they had to go from one step to step 2 to step 3. And that, you know, people from the U.S. and developed capitalist countries think, well, you know, that their situation can be, um, Just transferred to other countries just mechanically, and that other people can, can be at the same level of consciousness and deal with the same kinds of ways of struggling. But I had a very good friend who was studying here from Ethiopia, and she said— she was in the Women's Caucus— and she said, you know, I wake up sometimes and I, I really Um, find my face with, and I find I've been crying. She said, you know, because I know we made some very serious mistakes when we first started. She said, I would invite women to meetings and I would invite a male speaker in a room full of women, and because of just those women, of those meetings, Women were killed. Their husbands killed them for being in a room with another man. Those were the conditions that she had to struggle under. And that was the objective reality that she was dealing with. And so, I learned in Cuba, from just talking to women from so many different experiences, the levels of machismo in the world, and that each struggle has to be dealt with based on where it is and using the cultural roots, using the reality not of European models, but using the homegrown stuff to begin to take the movement to a higher level. And that was a very important Yes. Lessons for me to learn so that I would be able to appreciate other people's struggles, not from my point of view and not from the things that shaped my consciousness, but from their consciousness. And so I've learned a lot here, not just from Cubans, but from many people that I have met here who have explained To me, realities that I would have never understood about the Third World and about what struggling in other conditions means. And it's so easy, we often think that, you know, our reality is the same as other people's, only they're poorer. But that's a crazy way to look at other people's struggles, I think that we have to become much more sensitive to the objective conditions that other people are dealing with and to the strengths that other people have. Because I also have found that I've met people who come from African villages who, you know, we might go there and say, well, that village is primitive, the people who are there seem to me so much more sophisticated in human ways of dealing with each other, have obtained so much more in terms of how they interrelate, of how they keep promises, and of how they, um, relate to the society. In some African societies, for example, Yes. So, lying is a crime punished not by prison, but by go away. You want to lie, we don't want to live with you. You would please go somewhere else, because we really cannot deal with that, and we cannot trust you. So that when you are ready to come home, we will make a ceremony for you, but we will not live with you as you are. And so that I have learned also that there's There's much to be learned from the cultures of other people, much to be learned from the history of other people. And I think that when you begin to respect the achievements, historical achievements of many people, then you will have learned a lot. And I think that it's very important that we focus on many of the things that we have not studied. And have not delved into when we look for models of how to create a better society, because I think there are many lessons to be learned that are not in Marx, Lenin, etc., but that come from the traditional ways of living of third-world people. And I think that that has been I'm curious about how you—

Speaker 6: the news that you get from the United States, how Cuban media presents it, particularly if you could perhaps touch upon the coverage of the events that followed the acquittal of the 4 white policemen who beat Mr. Rodney King, and how that I guess I'm particularly interested in what you see as the strengths, and if there are any weaknesses, in the way in which Cuban media present information about— present information about that period.

Assata Shakur: Well, in terms of Rodney King, for example, the tape of Martin Luther King being beaten was shown in Cuba several times. Almost all Cubans saw that on the news, and most Cubans were shocked that there was an acquittal. You know, I mean, that was— of course, the news was dealt with on the normal television and the night dedicated several programs just dealing with the verdict and dealing with the reality of police brutality and repression in the United States. They also— there was an act of solidarity with our movement to which I was invited and I spoke, by OSPAL. That is the Committee in Solidarity with Africa, Asia, and Latin America. And the response was overwhelming, and people were really indignant and were in I, in one way, believed that it was naked, you know, because it's very difficult for, like, young people who have— who look at all movies, who look at, you know, these high school movies, and they have the high school kids running around in these convertibles And they live in these perfect houses with these perfectly manicured lawns, and, you know, and they open the door into their TV movie rooms and they have all these wonderful posters and all this electrical equipment and all this stuff. So I think that many parents and many adults were like, um— They're not real. Just grateful that, you know, that it was exposed, that it was naked, that the racism was exposed so they could deal with these issues. In terms of news coverage in general, I think that it could be much better, but I think that they're dealing with a hell of a difficult job because in the first place, there's no— you know, there's a big problem with paper. So many of the magazines that dealt with in-depth analysis of things are not being published. The amount of time that TV is being aired has been greatly reduced because of the problem with energy. And so that the amount of coverage, that in-depth coverage that they can give to any news is limited. So I— and I think that that's a problem. I also think that Cuban people are very sophisticated in that they are very much capable of differentiating between the U.S. people and the U.S. government, and they don't confuse the two, which I think is important. And I think it's also— it's a result of the way in which they've covered the U.S. On that same line then, Radio Martí, what is the effect of that? I don't know. I mean, I really do not know how much of an effect Radio Martí has because, I mean, I know some people listen to it. Some people listen to it with total skepticism. Other people listen to it with total gullibility, and other people listen to it somewhere in between. Other people don't listen to it at all. But I really do not know and have no way of knowing how many people, how effective or ineffective it is.

Speaker 2: What's the impact on Cuban exile community in Miami and the rest of the United States in terms of increasing inequality in Cuba and attacking the moral foundations of the revolution?

Assata Shakur: In terms of the growing inequality in Cuba?

Speaker 2: In terms of sending goods and money back, that type of thing.

Assata Shakur: Can I address the—

Speaker 2: Yeah, do you see now the different groups that used to be really poor now have changed and that This support from outside in relationship to the revolution now are beginning to attack the moral foundations themselves.

Assata Shakur: To be honest, I don't know too much about what is going on in relation, you know, in the exile community in the US you're talking about, right? I really don't know a lot, and I don't want to just give you a silly answer, so I'll just I'll just pass on that because I really can't give you any in-depth answer, and I don't feel that I'm capable of giving you a solid answer. And Lenin were both brilliant people and both, um, and made contributions to what I hope in the future will be revolutionary political science or social— scientific socialism. But I think that it is pure idealism to think that the thinking of a small group of people who lived in a specific time frame can be the totality of what is a scientific revolutionary way for analyzing existing capitalism and for constructing future models of socialism. I think that, you know, what I see right now is that revolutionary social science is in its very primitive stage. If we look at— if someone thousands of years from now would give a name to what is happening So over the past 80 years, in terms of the communist movement, the socialist movement, they would probably call it the pre-primitive phase of socialism. I don't think that the ideological input can come from such a narrow base and Uh, be a guide for world revolutionary struggle. I think that it's kind of like, uh, someone who is a biologist being a Darwinist, or someone who is a physicist being an Einsteinist, or, you know, I mean, it's, it's a very limited approach To the growth of a science that is out of the reality of what we're dealing with in its very infancy. I think that the approaches to what we call now Marxism-Leninism have been to recite rather than to analyze the words and the contribution of Marx and Lenin in a more broadening sense and constantly increasing the input of other thinkers, of other revolutionary experiences. I think that people have dealt with it in a kind of religious style. And with a kind of, you know, like the Bible. These are the only books where you can find truth. I think that there's no question that they made tremendous contributions, but I think that for Marxism-Leninism to become a universal revolutionary science, it must have a way To grow, a systematic way to grow. Because if a science does not in fact grow, then it is stuck at the point of dogma. I think that if it does not reflect the experiences and the intellectual, ideological, practical input from a worldwide experience, then it cannot claim to be a universal Revolutionary science. So I— although I think that's great, that they make great contributions, but there's so much room for growth and so many things that have not been developed that need to be developed. I think that we would be kidding ourselves to say that this is, you know, a complete integral way of looking at the world.

Speaker 6: I agree.

Assata Shakur: I think it's just a beginning, and it reflects a very small step in what needs to be leaped and bound. Do you want to—

Speaker 2: And over 80% of them were people of color, which in my view is why the two main factions in the movement did not support the resistors in any meaningful way. Issues throughout the whole war.

Speaker 4: Y entonces pegaron una serie de cuestiones, plantean una serie de cuestiones durante toda la guerra.

Speaker 2: We had whole platoons deserting of in New Orleans and elsewhere of black people.

Speaker 4: Hubo operadores enteros desertando en New Orleans y otras ciudades.

Speaker 2: And this is very different from during the Vietnam War.

Speaker 4: Esto fue diferente a la operación aérea de Vietnam.

Speaker 3: And so the response of the white And also, like many African Americans, although they were opposed to war, they had the yellow ribbons because they had so many families that were in the service.

Speaker 4: Esta es la posición por qué muchos afroamericanos usaron una banda amarilla que significaba solidaridad con quien estaba en la guerra, porque ellos tenían mucha familia que estaba envuelta en esa guerra. Entonces era era también ver el mundo era para los norteamericanos usando un botón de paz, un símbolo de paz y un símbolo de que era la esta banda amarilla.

Assata Shakur: Se usaban las dos cosas.

Speaker 4: Ah, que la supremacía blanca va cuando vemos la cuestión de las poblaciones militares. Es que ven que los que están en combate directo, o sea, las principales tropas de infantería, sean fundamentalmente negros.

Assata Shakur: And those that they are fighting against or invading, they're also seen as Arab or Latin Americans or Africans.

Speaker 4: Y estas gentes que ellos están invadiendo también se ven, o son afroamericanos, son latinos, también son personas de ese mundo.

Assata Shakur: But it disconnects because it does not identify with those people as being fully human or equal to each other.

Speaker 4: Entonces eso se desconecta, no identifican a esas personas como seres, como decía el doctor Amiri, humanos.

Assata Shakur: So if you were to mobilize against U.S.

Speaker 4: intervention, entonces nos movilizaremos, nos movilizamos en contra de la intervención norteamericana.

Assata Shakur: You would have to be able to achieve the mobilized against U.S. intervention.

Speaker 4: Era, sería capaz de, sería entonces capaz de desmovilizarse y hacer una crítica acerca, en contra de las invasiones.

Speaker 3: Yeah, as a matter of fact, many whites on the left Muchos blancos en la izquierda usan el tercer mundo, en particular Cuba, particularmente Cuba, as a surrogate, substitute, as a substitute for addressing the domestic third world in the United States.

Speaker 4: Para dirigirse al tercer mundo nacional dentro de Estados Unidos.

Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, they don't even address The Puerto Ricans, the Chicanos, the African Americans, the indigenous people, but they will be supporters of Cuba and Nicaragua and Vietnam.

Speaker 4: No solo en contra de las minorías puertorriqueñas o hispanas, sino también en contra de los que apoyan a casos como la Cuba, la Nicaragua, la Vietnam.

Speaker 3: And so they come back as experts.

Speaker 7: Forma para discusión o para establecer un punto de partida. Ayer hemos estado debatiendo cuestiones que tienen que ver con el hecho de que Cuba, por primera vez en la historia de las sociedades multirraciales, fue posible eliminar el racismo que Yo he dado en llamar institucionalizado, o racismo de tipo estructural. En el eje horizontal de las relaciones raciales, en el eje de las relaciones interpersonales, Todavía existe en Cuba el fenómeno del prejuicio, no como fenómeno meramente residual, sino que existen mecanismos en la sociedad cubana que todavía están reproduciendo el prejuicio y sobre esta base es posible a ese nivel interpersonal el ejercicio de la discriminación. Hemos avanzado mucho, hemos cambiado, hemos transformado en muchos sentidos la sociedad cubana. And in Cuba, the Marxist Party, in good faith, has not been, and we regret that, investigated the racism in Cuba.

Speaker 3: These issues have not been researched and discussed deeply. Because there was this false assumption that the elimination of the socioeconomic basis for racism and the prohibition of racism by law right after the triumph of revolution, that all these bases would eliminate racism automatically. You still have 2 minutes, 2 more minutes. I'd like to remind the U.S. delegation that in the present Cuban Constitution, the current Cuban Constitution, Chapter 5 on equality, Chapter 5 on equality, give us an insight I would like to say something on the racial problems of the United States, which I believe are— of the racial problems in the United States, which I'm sure are completely different from the problems we have in Africa. So I agree with what Louis Newton stated and what López Oliva stated. Racial prejudice is a problem in Africa. Has not been eliminated. And that many times we have believed that by creating material bases and legal bases for the elimination of discrimination, through that we could find on an interpersonal level individuals who discriminate. At the level of society, at the level of the came to me when I was listening to the presentation of the American Congress that there are two nations within the United States: one nation, one white nation, and another nation for white, for Latinos, for Afro-Americans, for Native Americans. Not only because These minorities have their rights not recognized, but also because I believe the Cuban woman think of Puerto Rico as well. Because I believe that the rights of these people have not been acknowledged and that these minorities have not been integrated in the process of the formation of our own nation. Two three days ago, Lodi Newton was saying. And I reassert this: that from that from seventy to eighty percent of the Cuban population was was either white or black but mixed. Many of many of us who have white bloods. And Robert Soliva was saying something about that, and I am saying the same thing. Many of those of us who have white roots are not that white. Because in the process of formation of the Cubans as a people, there is a very intense mixing. And many of our most relevant cadres and people in our history have contributed with their action and with their works to eliminate this problem. And one example is José Martí, who fought immensely To integrate the black population into the struggle for the independence, and also the existence of one leader, as for example Antonio Maceo, who was the chief, who was lieutenant general, who was lieutenant general of the independence army, and he was last. Do you carry a weapon?

Speaker 7: You know the criminal. And a discriminatory one.

Speaker 3: And we were calling or insisting on the fact that this—

Assata Shakur: one of these 2 tendencies, or how these 2 tendencies would be reflected in the common consciousness. I think that when we talk about prejudices in the conditions of our country, We have to talk about this, or taking into account the contradictory character that it has.

Speaker 7: O sea, este mundo de movimiento de una forma llena está manifestado de una forma directa, direct way, sino que se expresa a través de contradicciones y mediaciones en la propia, en el propio individuo. Es expresado through contradictions and mediations within the individual, inclusive en el propio individuo discriminador.

Speaker 3: Even in the, in the very The movement of the color independence in 1902 was an armed movement that has an objective to eliminate the question of religion.