An interview with Huey P. Newton (1968)

Colin Edwards: This is Colin Edwards. At 9:00 a.m. on Thursday, March 7th, I went down to the Alameda County Courthouse to cover the preliminary to the trial of the young Black Panther leader Huey P. Newton, who is accused of the murder of one Oakland policeman and the wounding of another, charges which Mr. Newton vehemently denies. For the first time at a court appearance of Mr. Newton or any other Black Panthers or young radicals, I was barred from entering the courthouse for lack of a police pass. Also excluded were a French news photographer and a People's World photographer. So I didn't get to see Mr. Newton in court. However, an hour later, I was able, to my surprise, to record Mr. Newton in the detention quarters on the 10th floor as he talked with 3 American reporters and myself and his lawyer, Mr. Charles Gary. Mr. Gehry had earlier brought me up to date on the status of Mr. Newton's case when I was finally admitted to the courthouse after the trial preliminary had ended and after Mr. Gehry had held a press conference on the 4th floor. Mr. Gehry, I was kept outside the courthouse until now. Could you very quickly summarize it for KPFA, the situation as of now?

Speaker 3: The situation as of now, the court has picked a trial judge, Judge Monroe Friedman in Department 8. The case has been set for trial on May 6th, 1968.

Colin Edwards: Has there been any change in the situation with regard to the charges? Have they dropped any charges? Have they brought up new evidence? Have they shown you any evidence?

Speaker 3: No, they have not dropped any of the charges. We have a substantial amount of the so-called evidence, but we do not have the list of the witnesses so that we can interview them and be able to prepare for this case.

Colin Edwards: Normally, the defense is given these things, names of witnesses, are they?

Speaker 3: Normally, they're given those names if the defense attorney makes the proper motions, and we have made the proper motions.

Colin Edwards: Before meeting Mr. Newton, and indeed before I even knew I could interview him, I met his sister and his fiancée. Now, because members of Mr. Newton's family have been subjected to unpleasant harassment, I will not identify them by name. Mr. Newton's sister turned out to be a lady of great dignity, the picture of respectability, but added to that a gentle, serene countenance.

Speaker 4: The poor people, the Negro people, I mean, he always felt very strong about this, and different things that happened, I'm sure, is what drove him more to believe that something needed to be done about it. Was this a gradual, progressive Gradually, you say?

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: Well, yes, I guess, yes, it wasn't a jumped-up thing, if that's what you mean. Yes, yes, gradually, all along. Like I say, you know, he thinks of the betterment of a man, things that need doing. He believes you should get up and do something about it. He's always been this way, even as a child. He liked sports, he liked music, and he's very interested in history. And I think in reading history and seeing how the world really is, is another thing that encouraged him.

Colin Edwards: Do you feel that Huey stands any chance of having a fair trial?

Speaker 4: Sometimes I have hope, and sometimes listening, I doubt it. I can't see how it's possible. I don't feel— I hope he have more courage than I have, but feeling the way I feel about it, uh, I— me personally, it don't seem— up to this point, it haven't gone fair. This is what I base it on. It haven't gone fair up to this point. I agree with you. So naturally, I don't have much hope for it going fair any further.

Colin Edwards: It must be a very drastic thing to happen to any family.

Speaker 4: Yes, it is. Yes, my mother is ill and my father is too. He tries to go on to work, but my mother can never make it to court. She says she coming, but by the time, you know, I have to take her to the doctor—

Colin Edwards: What did your father do?

Speaker 4: He worked for the city of Oakland. My mother's a housewife.

Colin Edwards: Yes, a quiet, Family, Negro family, and suddenly this happens to you.

Speaker 4: Yeah, my father's a minister, by the way.

Colin Edwards: Is he?

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Colin Edwards: Now, some of the press here have been branding Huey and other leaders in the Black Panther Party as anti-white racists. Would you like to say something about Huey's attitude on this question?

Speaker 4: Of course, she wasn't in court this morning, another lady.

Colin Edwards: I wasn't allowed in.

Speaker 4: Oh, you wasn't allowed in. Anyway, she wasn't there. That is Huey's girlfriend, the girl on that. But before he met her, Huey's girlfriend was a white girl. So this proves— before that girl, she was a Filipino girl. So this proves that he has no— he's not pretty still at all. And my father is half white.

Speaker 5: Oh.

Speaker 4: This goes kind of far back, so we have no connection with the white family, but I mean, this would kind of deter the prejudice.

Colin Edwards: Mr. Newton's fiancée, an extremely attractive young black lady with classic features, is like Mr. Newton himself very musically inclined, and she has shown great promise as a singer. I asked her too about the anti-white label applied to Mr. Newton.

Speaker 5: As far as being anti-white, this is, you know, ridiculous. I think this is just retaliation on the part of the system to, you know, try and knock the Panthers, to try and say that the Panthers are wrong, and to use any sort of devious methods against them. Huey has always expressed that he is anti-oppressor, and I am anti-oppressor. And I think that any person that believes in right would be anti-oppressor.

Speaker 4: Not—

Speaker 5: it's not anti-color of any kind. It's just the oppressor. Well, Huey is, um, he's a very energetic person, dynamic, very kind and gentle. For instance, every time he He passes me, although we're in the same house or in the same room, he'll say, hi, how are you doing? You know, or he, you know, he's very considerate towards people.

Colin Edwards: Did he talk much to you about his future, his plans, his hopes?

Speaker 5: Well, we both believe that this is just another obstacle and that it will soon be over. And from there, his future too much hasn't been mapped out, but I'm sure we'll be working on it.

Colin Edwards: How do you feel about this trial? Do you think that he stands any chance of getting a fair trial?

Speaker 5: As it stands now, as far as fairness, I don't think that fairness is being displayed in the many things that have been brought up in the trial. I think that it's a deliberate attempt to railroad him, but I believe that because he is right, and I believe that he is innocent, and I believe in him, that I think that things will work out fine. We look forward to them working out.

Colin Edwards: Have you suffered any victimization or harassment of any sort as a result of having been close to Mr. Newton?

Speaker 5: Well, calls to my job, my home.

Speaker 3: Being followed.

Speaker 5: Being followed by whom? I don't know, just men in cars, you know, and just the regular intimidation process that they go through. But this, I, because of my belief in Huey and in the philosophy of the Panthers, that I don't let anything like that bother me.

Colin Edwards: Have you suffered any ostracization at all? For instance, you work in an office, do you? Yes, I do. You're a secretary, are you?

Speaker 5: No, I'm a counselor.

Colin Edwards: Have you suffered any sort of reactions from people there as a result of this case or the whole Black Panther movement?

Speaker 5: Some.

Colin Edwards: You work with white people, I take it?

Speaker 5: No, I work with primarily black people. I work with some white, and oddly enough, some of the ostracization came through Well, Black people, you know, or should I— shouldn't say Black people, I should say in quotes Negroes, unquote. And, um, but I think that everyone is just sort of resolved to the fact that I'm with you and there's nothing that anyone can do about it, so they've sort of swallowed it.

Colin Edwards: Well, now let's meet Mr. Newton himself. He's a rather handsome young man, a sort of darker-skinned version of Horst Buchholz Or Warren Beatty. The photographs on the posters and pamphlets I've seen really do not do him justice. With me interviewing him in the cell were Mrs. Joan Didier, who is a Saturday Evening Post columnist, Mr. Ray Rogers of the Los Angeles Times, and Mr. Eldridge Cleaver, an editor at Ramparts magazine and himself a prominent figure in the Black Panther Party. Mr. Newton's attorney, Mr. Charles Gary, was also present, and he put in a question or remark once or twice. Copyright to this group interview belongs to the Huey P. Newton Defense Fund, without whose specific consent no reproduction or publication of Mr. Newton's remarks can be made. The next voice you'll hear will be that of Mr. Huey P. Newton.

Speaker 3: We ran into the problem of people misinterpreting us as a political party. They used the word for self-defense as— they defined us then as a group that were a paramilitary group or bodyguards or something of this nature. But we found that it was very difficult. Even in our program, we described or defined ourselves as a political party, but yet people seemed to misinterpret the definition of what self-defense is all about.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Speaker 3: We realize that when we're assaulted in the community by the Gestapo tactics of the police, this is also a political thing. We're assaulted because we're black people and because the power structure finds it to their advantage to keep us imprisoned in our black community, and as a colonialized— or colonial people are kept by some foreign power. So, the police The police is only an arm of the white power structure, used very similar as their military force, which it is a military force. It's their local police, and you have the National Guard as the national police, and then you have the regular military as the international police. And these police are used to occupy our community just as a foreign troop occupies territory. They don't live in our community, the police, and don't—

Speaker 4: and—

Speaker 3: They're not citizens. They have no respect for black people who live in the community, yet they occupy the community. And they're not occupying the community for the welfare and the benefit of the people who live there. They're occupying it to make sure that the businessmen who are systematically robbing our community are safe. So, this was one part of our political stand, and to make the party for— basically for the intellectuals, because the grassroots of the community, the people who we're most concerned with, because the lower-class black, who represents about 95% of the black population throughout this nation, they understood very well what we stood for. But to make it clear to everyone, we changed the name to the Black Panther Party, and to make it clear what our political stand was about.

Colin Edwards: Mr. Newton, Some newspapers and radio stations, television stations sort of brand the Black Panther leadership, you and Mr. Seale and others, as anti-white, racist, sort of counter-racism. Would you like to clear up this matter?

Speaker 3: Yes, the Black Panther Party is against racism. We're not racist, but we stand to protect the black community and to rid America of racism. We're subject to the tactics of racists by the white establishment. But it's a very common thing for the people who are in control of the mass media to define the victim as the criminal, or to define the victim of racism as the racist. This is just a propaganda device that's used by the power structure so that they will gain support throughout the white community, who a small portion of it happen not to be racist. But in order to consolidate their troops, they will— They will use the victim as a scapegoat. claim that we want racism, therefore to turn all white people against us.

Colin Edwards: Have you felt good about some young white people sort of coming out in support of your case and taking a political position on it?

Speaker 3: Yes, the white revolutionaries, or the enlightened part of the white community, has responded and came to the defense of the black community and have come to the defense of the vanguard group of the black community, which is the Black Panther Party. And that we think we'll see more of this in the future.

Eldridge Cleaver: Huey, could you talk for a moment about yourself, your life, you know, before the Black Panther Party?

Speaker 3: I think that before the Black Panther Party, that my life was very similar to most Black people in the country. I'm from a lower-class Black family, a working, a working-class family, and I've suffered the abuses of of the power structure, just as, uh, all black people in America have. And I've responded, and that black people are responding now. So I see very little difference in my personality than any other black person living here in racist America.

Eldridge Cleaver: I mean, what shaped your attitude towards these, towards the institutions that you're indicting?

Speaker 3: Um, living here in America, it reminds me of a quote that, uh, from James Baldwin, He says that to, to be Black and conscious in America is to be in a constant state of rage. And I think this is very true of Black people in general in this country. Many Black people, most Black people, as I said, that are uneducated and they're not used to handling academic things and administrating. So their response might have been somewhat different than mine, but They will rally behind a political party that's representing their grievance. So all the Black Panther Party has done is to articulate and bring out the grievances of the Black community.

Colin Edwards: Can you think of some— recall some incidents that sort of brought home to you the attitude of a majority of white people towards Negroes and the attitude of the Black—

Speaker 3: of the white establishment You like a specific incident?

Colin Edwards: You know, people can bring home to people, you know, how this can scar one's soul.

Eldridge Cleaver: I think he's trying to boil it down to one statement, and I don't think that could be possible.

Speaker 3: Well, I can understand that. It's very difficult for me to cite one specific incident, because it's a very long process, and that I've started to say that for a I think if a white person understands, let him come to the black community, but this wouldn't be a good example because he couldn't experience the alienation and the antagonistic attitudes of blacks that we receive in the white community. And we live in the white world, in the white America here, and that anytime a white person goes to the black community or a black country, I doubt very seriously whether he experiences this alienation because black people American people seem to have some priority upon being humanists for some reason. Perhaps it's a historical reason. I can't pinpoint why, but we seem to be more fair as a people to other people than anyone else in the world.

Colin Edwards: Have you had a chance to see this President's Commission on Civil Disorders report? I read a couple of accounts Do you think it's hitting pretty close to the mark?

Speaker 3: I think that some of the statements in the report hit the mark, but as far as the conclusion or the solution to the problem, I think they were wanting in that direction.

Colin Edwards: Do you think the white establishment and the white people as a whole will take it to heart and do something really effective to solve this problem of racism that it portrayed?

Speaker 3: I doubt seriously whether white America is mature enough and mentally well enough to solve this problem without a great catastrophe.

Colin Edwards: Are you optimistic about your trial, and do you think it will be a fair trial?

Speaker 3: Well, I think that black people will make very sure that I receive a fair trial. I have no I have no faith at all in the court system, because I've already suffered an injustice by being indicted by an all-white, middle-class grand jury. And so, from my prior experiences, that I would expect for them to— I would expect no change. But I also expect black people to come to my aid and put pressure and see, by any means necessary, that all black men receive a fair trial. That's including those who are held in the in various prisons and county jails at the present time. We're demanding an immediate release for them, because we realize that they've suffered the same kind of injustice that I'm suffering now.

Eldridge Cleaver: I'd like to ask you a question. You know, the Peace and Freedom Party sought to have you run as their candidate in the 7th Congressional District. And we understand that you stated that if the Peace and Freedom Party would endorse the 10 10-point program of the Black Panther Party, then you would feel free to run. Would you like to comment on that?

Speaker 3: Uh, that's very true, that, uh, the Black Panther Party feels that the essentials that we cited in our platform, the 10-point program, is necessary for any group to accept if we're going to work in coalition with them. Uh, it's a— it's the basic things that the Black community, uh, the— it's the basic demands of the Black community, and without accepting the basic demands, uh, we would feel that the person who is seeking coalition is insincere if he cannot accept these, uh, 10, uh, 10 basic philosophies. One of the points in the 10-point program, um, is the elimination of all black people from the draft, right? Uh, yes, that's part of it. Uh, we have a 10-point program of what we want and what we believe, and that, uh, What is your position on the draft? We state that black people should not be made to fight in a war and to fight— serve in the military and to serve a government that is not working in our benefit and that's not working for our general welfare, that if the government is working against black people and for the destruction of black people, we don't see any need at all for black people to serve in that military that's oppressing us and other colored people throughout the world. We demand that all black men be released from the military service and not serve at all until this government rightens the wrongs that have been perpetrated against us.

Colin Edwards: So it's not an objection to this specific war.

Speaker 3: It's an objection to our government, right? It's an objection to the specific war in particular and the government in general. We don't see where we would fight anyone for this racist government that's only oppressing people for economical How do the Panthers stand in relation to some black nationalist groups like Malcolm X and Watts, say?

Colin Edwards: What is, um, is there any point of where you come together?

Eldridge Cleaver: Yeah, I'd like to elaborate on that.

Speaker 3: In the first place, that the Black Panther Party is a political party. I don't believe that, that Ron Karenga claims to be a political organ. Secondly, that Ron Karenga and other— some other nationalist groups seem to be somewhat hung up on the surviving Africanisms, or what we call cultural nationalism. And cultural nationalism deals with a return to the old culture of Africa, and that we were They want to somehow become free by identifying and returning to this culture of Africa, say, that was in the 1100s or before then. And somehow they believe that they will be free through identifying in this manner. As far as we're concerned, we believe that it's important for us to recognize our origin and to identify with the revolutionary Black people of Africa and people of color throughout the world. But as far as returning Uh-huh. —per se to the ancient customs. We don't see any necessity in this. And also, we say that the only culture that's worth really holding on to is revolutionary culture, or change for the better, and that we say the only way we're going to be free is by seizing power, political power, which comes through the barrel of a gun. And we say that we will identify so that we will have this consolidation of people so we have strength and that we will respect ourselves and have the dignity of our past, but many things connected to the culture that we don't feel it's necessary to return to.

Colin Edwards: The Black Panther title and symbol was introduced, I believe, by SNCC in Mississippi and Alabama when they started the Black Panther Party or movement down there. Was this what gave inspiration to the creation of the Black Panther Party?

Speaker 3: Yes, I was very impressed by the political party in Lowndes County that calls itself a freedom organization, and they use the Black Panther as their symbol. And they use the Black Panther because the, the nature of a panther, that a panther will not attack anyone, that he will back up first. But if the assailant is persistent, then the Black Panther will strike out.

Eldridge Cleaver: Yes.

Speaker 3: wipe out his aggressor thoroughly, wholly, absolutely, and completely. So we thought that the symbol would be very appropriate for us, and also that we were very— I was very proud of the move that Black people in Lowndes County made.

Colin Edwards: Have you had any expressions of sympathy or support from overseas yet?

Speaker 3: That at this time, that Black people all over the world are supporting each other, that we realize that That we're being treated by the races of America within the country as other colonized people are treated abroad, because for economical reasons, just as we are abused, and also for race reasons.

Eldridge Cleaver: I would like to say that communications are kind of bad up here between Huey and the outside world. For instance, they impose restrictions on newspapers and magazines, that he could receive books and so forth, that Uh, would keep him informed on what's going on around the world. Very essential information. Were he able to get news from the outside, he would know that while Stokely Carmichael was in Africa, there was a Free Huey rally held in Tanzania, and that President Kwame Nkrumah and Sékou Touré have issued public statements to the effect that Huey Newton should be set free. So there is an awareness. News clippings and so forth are sent around the world, and people around The world are aware of this case. They're aware of the pivotal nature of the case, and I'm sure this will become public knowledge when people start checking it out.

Colin Edwards: If you are acquitted and set free, I presume you'll continue into a political career. Have you thought of returning to law, or are you now bound definitely onto a political career to change those laws by— in the Congress or in the state government?

Speaker 3: As far as a career, I have one desire, and that's to go on fighting for the liberation of Black people throughout the world. In particular, the Black people here in America. I would like to relate to the Black Panther Party and our political stand that Black people must arm themselves. I think this has been misinterpreted a number of ways many times, that we've made the statement, or quoted it from Chairman Mao, that political power comes through the barrel, grows through the barrel of a gun. And the Black Panther Party has advocated I've analyzed the statement and have come up with the clear realization that anytime a people are unarmed and the people and the administrators of that country maintain a regular police force and a regular military, those people, the people of the country, are either slaves or subject to slavery at any given moment that that administration desires to inflict the force of their military or police upon the people. So, We say that as long as the military and the police force are armed, then Black people are— should arm themselves. And the many people who have spoken of violence, well, we're advocating violence. We're not advocating violence, but we are advocating that we defend ourselves from the aggression, and that if America is armed, then if it's right for America to arm herself and even commit violence If it's right for violence throughout the world, then it's right for black people to arm themselves. And then if it's wrong for America to commit this violence, then— or if it's wrong for black people to commit this violence in their own self-defense, then it's wrong for America to commit this violence against people in America and throughout the world. So, it's a statement— it reminds me of a statement that Ronald Reagan made shortly after our appearance at the Capitol, that That, uh, he said something to the effect, to paraphrase, that, that, uh, in this enlightened time, that, uh, people, uh, cannot and should not influence other people by the use of physical force and the gun. But at the same time, that, uh, we see throughout America the police, uh, being heavily armed, and now not only being armed, but escalating the war against black people in our black communities by ordering heavy, uh, military And we think that Reagan should take a look at what he's doing and what this American government is doing before he criticizes black people for arming themselves to defend themselves against the aggression of America.

Colin Edwards: Do you see yourself as playing a part, say, if things assume an orderly process now towards reforms, playing a part in the political scene through the present political structure?

Speaker 3: I think that the present political structure is bankrupt, and this is what the game is all about, that the present political structure has perpetuated and protected racism and inflicted racism. So we say that there has to be a drastic change in the political structure. As far as my running for office, that I would only serve one purpose there, as a spokesman to articulate the grievances of the Black community. And as far as, uh, playing the game that some Black politicians have, uh, traditionally played, that, uh, the day has come for this kind of action to be over. For instance, this is one of the reasons that we feel it's necessary to arm ourselves in a political fashion. It's, uh, it's a very important thing. For instance, uh, when any, um, uh, candidate is going up for political office, that, uh, he always— in the white power structure, he always has political power behind him.

Speaker 5: That's right.

Speaker 3: And political power is— you can find it in a number of areas. You have feudal power, or the farmers who own much land. And, of course, they will put a candidate up who will serve their welfare and speak on their behalf. And the other political colleagues, the people he has to work with, understand that he has this power behind him. For instance, if the farmers don't get what they want, then they'll let the crops rot in the field.

Colin Edwards: Yeah.

Speaker 3: —at the price, what they want for the crops. And then you have big business power, or economical power, where the people who own big businesses will get behind a candidate. And this candidate will simply relay the message of these people who are in big business. And it goes on. You have the cattle owners and so forth. And we see that black people Black people don't have this political power. They don't have economical power. They don't have land power. We've been robbed. For instance, our black politicians have been ineffective. Not much of the time it's not their fault. It's simply because they don't have the grassroots political organization behind them. Even if they get votes from black people, simply to have a vote doesn't mean political power. In the political arena, a thing is not political unless there's a a political consequence if the people don't get what they want. And Black people in the past haven't been able to offer this consequence. For instance, according to John Hope Franklin, the reason that Black Reconstruction failed, where you had many Black candidates holding offices in the South, wasn't because these Black candidates were ignorant or inefficient. Many of, many of the Black candidates had been educated in France and Canada. Canada, in England, and they were very efficient. But the reason that it failed is because there was— blacks did not have economical or military power, that after they put their man into office, that he was still subject to these people who owned the land, that he was still subject to these people who owned the military. So black Reconstruction failed. And we say now we We can develop a political consequence, we can develop political power by being a potentially destructive force, that Black people arm themselves in a political fashion, and then if the aggression is continued against us, we'll be able to offer a political consequence, very similar to Detroit.

Eldridge Cleaver: It's quite a phenomenon going on in the Black community these days. It's quite clear that while you were out, there were a lot of groups and people There were a lot of people who opposed your program and refused to approve of the Black Panther Party. But since you've been in jail, a lot of people who opposed you have turned over and are now members of your party. Also, it's becoming necessary for people to take a public stand on this issue because the black community is demanding that. One thing they're demanding that Willie Brown in particular and all other Black elected and appointed officials take a public stand. They ask the ones who are members of the legislature to stand up on the floor of the legislature and speak out in your defense. They're demanding that, and it's having a political effect because this is an election year. For instance, John Miller and Byron Rumford are trying to run for the same office in Oakland, the 17th Assembly District. Willie Brown is running again, and John George is seeking to be elected to Congress. And all these people have before them the whole question of where they stand on Huey Newton, and not a meeting goes down without that coming up. And I thought you might be interested in knowing that. Yeah. Would you expect that to happen?

Speaker 3: Uh, well, no, that— I'm very surprised that it did happen. But after it happened, then in retrospect, uh, I understand what's going on. For instance, the black community is now forcing, uh, these political candidates into a direction that they want. They realize they depend upon Black people to vote for them, and Black people identify with the Black Panther Party, and they identify with the party more so now than they did in the past, even though we've had great, a great reception from the Black community in the past. And the reason for this, in my opinion, is that Black people are always I'm always impressed by a reality, that you could talk all day and articulate all sorts of beautiful things, how things could be and how things are, and describe it to the point, and you won't get the response that you would, that when a reality is put before them. Black people have understood what I've talked about, and now that I'm being subject to these very things that I've They can sympathize with the party on this. And also, it makes them look around and observe. It brings to their consciousness many things that are happening in the black community that are wrong, many things that people have spoke about, and many things that people have suggested change. And they haven't responded to the magnitude that they're responding now, simply because it's reality. You cannot deny a reality. And anybody who says that, Anything that I've said in the past, if it didn't relate to the situation, then it was my fault and it wasn't the situation's fault. So black people now are only relating to the reality of their existence. They realize that it's not only Huey Newton who's being persecuted, but it's the black community throughout America. And they are responding in their own defense.

Colin Edwards: There's been a lot of talk about the generational gap in white families between the young People who are disillusioned with their parents and alienated from them. Is there a certain amount of this among black families, and is this part of the problem you have in bringing more adult black people into the movement?

Speaker 3: I think that the older black people have realized for a very long time the problems, but as far as solution, they've been wanting a solution because The, uh, in the past, the, uh, Black political representatives have been, uh, somewhat misleading the Black community. In other words, that it's been thought in the past that if you can put a, a representative into office, you will automatically get justice. But now it's being realized to have a Black man in office doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get, uh, political justice.

Colin Edwards: I'm Was the reason you dropped your studies of law that you got disgusted with the system of law here?

Speaker 3: Um, of course I'm disgusted with the, uh, the, uh, judicial, uh, system, but, uh, more than that, that, uh, I can only do so much, uh, I can only be, uh, so many places at a certain time, and I felt it more important to work, to organize within the community, than to continue Are you allowed to have any contact with other prisoners in this courthouse here? No, I'm kept in what's called the H-tank, and it's used as a hospital tank when someone is hurt. But I've recovered very well, and I've noticed that I haven't been moved away from the hospital cell. And I don't think the deputies here have any intentions of moving me, because they don't want me to— it's been rumored that I'm going to be executed. There's a rumor that they don't want me to mix with the other prisoners. Many— although I've converted many black people— I shouldn't say converted because black people are Panthers anyway by the definition of the word. But many people have joined the party who've come through here simply by screaming back to my cell, and I will define the party and give them some understanding of the political direction of the party. I haven't been abused. I haven't been abused here, primarily for the reason that the department has been admonished by the black people to keep their hands off. For instance, when I first came here, this is a rumor, again, from a reliable source, that the captain notified the deputies not to treat me any differently than other prisoners. So I haven't suffered any abuse. I haven't suffered any brutality here. The attitude of the deputies have been somewhat hostile. And just yesterday, for instance, that I got into a somewhat of an argument with one of the deputies for a very petty reason. And the reason was this, that the deputies here demand that when If any prisoner addresses him, he should address him as sir or mister. And, of course, they address the prisoners as— by the prisoner's first or last name. I was asking one of the deputies something yesterday, and he kept walking. Then he abruptly turned around and came back, and he said, whenever you address me, you call me mister or you call me sir. And I told him, very well. Very fine that I would do that, but in return I would demand equal respect and that he would, he would speak to me as sir or as mister. And he got very upset, and he stormed out and approached the lieutenant and told the lieutenant his problem, that a prisoner wouldn't call him sir, and gave some indication that he wanted to put me in the punishment cell, where the— I was— incidentally, I was asking him if I could shave.

Eldridge Cleaver: Yes.

Speaker 3: Um, because we don't have facilities within our tank to shave. We have to be taken to the barbershop. So, uh, the lieutenant then told him— and then this is, uh, hearsay— that, uh, well, don't take him until he says sir. And, uh, fortunately, another deputy came around and gave me a shave, uh, because if he hadn't, I would have— I would be forced to grow a beard down to my knees before I would, uh, say sir, if I wasn't given equal respect.

Speaker 4: Thank you.

Speaker 3: This is only to relate an attitude, but as far as physical brutality, I haven't received that.

Speaker 4: What can you do?

Speaker 3: Well, occasionally I get the paper about a day late, or I have a few books that I've been reading. It's pretty difficult to get reading materials in, but I have received a few books. So I spend most of my time reading.

Colin Edwards: I wonder if you'd comment on something that struck me. Lots of young white people, young white people especially from the middle class, have dropped out from the middle-class way of life, but also from— a lot of them from the activist role. This hasn't happened among young black people. They sort of more or less as a whole in general shunned the sort of the drift into the dropouts, the marijuana, and everything like this. Can you account for this?

Speaker 3: Yes, that among Among the dropouts, I, uh, I infer that you're speaking of the hippies and Haight-Ashbury, and that, uh, if you, if you analyze the hippies or the hippie movement, you'll find that most of them, uh, were middle class or members of a middle-class family, uh, the upper lower middle class. And these families have had about every material thing that they could desire. And also, uh, this class They have had the opportunity to become well-educated. And through this, they realize how bankrupt the American system is, the government system, and that as far as them participating in it, they've chosen not to participate after their enlightenment, you see, after their education and after they've analyzed the system. So, because they are in a state of dismay about change, because of the tremendous Technology of this country sort of broke their spirit, and they dropped out, because the country has a great military and economical power, and they've concluded that they can make very little change. So they've dropped out. Black people, in general, are not middle class, that we're socially and economically of the lower class, and that we haven't received the basic things that we want because of The system, because of a tremendous spirit, because of a great revolutionary fervor that we've had, that we've kept ever since we were brought here to this country from Africa. We have not been broken, and we're still striving. And we say that our spirit is greater than the technology— technological developments, and that we can and will make changes. So, we don't have time for anyone who's dropped out of the struggle for freedom. Thank you.

Eldridge Cleaver: There are a lot of people interested in the Executive Mandate Number 3 that you've issued to the Black Panther Party. Would you care to comment on that? This was the mandate that— would you care to comment on it?

Speaker 3: Yes, the, the, the, uh, Mandate Number 3 is this demand from the Black Panther Party speaking for the Black community. And, uh, we, uh, have, uh, within the mandate, we admonished We want to message the racist police force that if they continue to break down our doors and be aggressive towards us and inflict brutality upon us, that we will be forced to protect our home front, that the party members have experienced— Bobby Seale, the chairman in particular, have experienced the police breaking down the door and coming into his house without a warrant and acting in a criminal fashion. And we maintain the right to protect ourselves. Protect ourselves from criminals, that when the police come into our house acting as a criminal, he should be brought to justice by the occupants of that house. And because we— in the mandate, we relate the Valentine's Day Massacre, that gangsters dressed up in police uniforms under the leadership of Al Capone, and that because they were dressed up in police uniforms, they were admitted into the Yes. —in the house of these individuals who turned out to be their victims. And so, in other words, just because a man has on a police uniform doesn't make him a representative of justice and representative— representatives of a peacemaker or peace officer, that he could be a wolf dressed in sheep clothing, and that we realize this, and we would like the police to know that at any time they break down our door unjustly, Without a warrant and without any provocation whatsoever, then we're going to defend ourselves against them. I think that covers it, unless somebody else—

Colin Edwards: One last question. I didn't know, but are you and other Black Panthers working out a concept of what you'd like this country to be like, with some specifics of what will replace this system one day?

Speaker 3: Um, yes, that, uh, the Black Panther Party, uh, you'll note, has demanded, uh, full employment. Uh, we've We've demanded decent housing. We've demanded good education and justice. And we feel that this— the system as it is, cannot give this to us. And we say that anytime a man is born, the system— the American capitalistic, imperialistic system has never been able to employ all of its people, and that particularly because of the greed of the private owner and the so-called free Free enterprise. Free enterprise. We know that when the American white people speak of free enterprise, that goes along with the idea of capitalism, that they assume that everyone has had the freedom of competition to compete with the next fellow, and it turns out the man who works hardest will have the— will benefit, will reap more. This doesn't hold true for black people, that when the move to the West, where this free enterprise was working fairly —really well for white people. They were staking up land, and the one that would— as we are now. We've never been given a chance to participate in the so-called free enterprise. We built this country because the industrial system was built upon slave labor in the South, and that we made it possible for this country to industrialize, and that we say, because we've never benefited by free enterprise and private ownership, that we could not stand for this. This is not a good goal for us. So, we say that whenever a man is born on a soil, he has a right to live. And to live, that he's going to have to work. And if he can't work because of some physical reason, then it's up to the administrators of that country to support the individual, because of his right to live. Now, if the administration says that, well, we just can't possibly employ our people, then we say that system has to be changed, and we say that we will Put in new administrators who are really interested in the welfare of the people of the country. And as far as the means of production, we say that if the way the means of production are being handled now, if it's not working, then it has to change. If private owners can't give full employment, then we say that then the means of production should be taken away from them, put in the people's hands. We'll have managers or administrators to run our production system for the welfare of the people in general of the country. So we say that this is the richest country in the world. And that we're sure that the country can give it full employment if it wanted to. If you didn't have the greed of profit and racism in the country, tomorrow you could have full employment.

Colin Edwards: Mr. Carmichael recently said that socialism does not suit the black people, communism doesn't suit the black people, but he omitted to say that capitalism doesn't suit the black people. Do you think that is significant, or from what you've said, I take it that you don't think Capitalism has served the interests of the black people.

Speaker 3: Prime Minister of the Black Panther Party, Stokely Carmichael, said that communism hadn't answered the problem of black people because it didn't relate to racism. He said that— I remember him saying that capitalism didn't answer the question either. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but as I read it, that he said that capitalism did not answer the need of black people. Now, uh— I believe he said that it was irrelevant at this particular time. I don't think he was making a projected analysis of the subject matter.

Colin Edwards: I bring this up because it's confused some people, and I think clarification is good.

Speaker 3: What I'm trying to point out is this: if you just— if you say that if you had a communist structure here in America, a communist structure without relating to racism— communism relates to an economical system, that the means of production will be in hands of the people and the people will put administrators of They'll be able to run their production machinery, and there will be no profit. There will only be wages that will go back into the community and, uh, and, uh, for the general welfare of the people. Now, if you just treat it per se as communism in this country, I would say that it wouldn't work. I would say until you get rid of racism— racism is a psychological thing, uh, that stems all the way back to England, uh, and, uh, Europe, uh, in general— that, uh, when, uh, the— when the European met the African, Yes. And that I have some— my own opinions about what happened during that time, or some conclusions that I've drawn about it. For instance, that I think it goes so deeply psychologically as the difference in the culture of the European, the difference in the culture of the African, and particularly in how the European worshiped. For instance, the European had this one God that he said defined as all good, and he was He was created in the image of this God. And of course, God can do no wrong, and that, uh, that, uh, since he was godlike, he could do no wrong. And, uh, as far as sexual drives and so forth, this had no place in God's mind, so therefore it shouldn't have any place in the European mind. And, uh, because the Europeans started to be sick then, because, uh, this was a, a big deviation from the human nature, uh, sex drives, that, uh— so he was looking for witches and everything else to blame his His own human nature on. And he couldn't fall beneath the grace of God, so he would say that, no, I'm not causing this within myself, so someone else must be. Then you had the contact with the African, who had— who always had a God that was— that was— we call it dualism. And in Europe you had absolutism. And in Africa south of Sahara, where most— from where most black people came, you have this— you have dualism.

Speaker 5: Yes.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Where the god has 2 or more heads, and one good head and one bad head. And the African was created in God's own image, and that when he was out of the good grace of the good head, that he would try to manipulate and get back in so that the bad head couldn't do him any wrong. But yet he recognized himself as both bad and good, so he had self-acceptance, and he didn't need to put off his human drives on other people. When the European met the African, this was a good person for him to say that These people are vulgar. These people are pagans. And every other kind of derogatory word. So this was— it had nothing to do right at the present moment of any economical thing. It was strictly a difference in culture and a sick mentality of the European. And I say that you have the European coming to America here and made up the American colony, and he brought this psychological sickness with him.

Colin Edwards: Yes.

Speaker 3: And as far as an economical structure changing his sick mind, I doubt if this will happen. He needs a psychiatrist or some mental therapy. And I say that as far as economically, black people cannot profit by capitalism within this structure, and that as far as socialism solving the problem per se and altogether, I doubt seriously whether it can. I believe that it can solve the economical problem, but as far as the mental attitude, who is Who's to say that after we choose these representatives that everyone is profiting or supposed to profit by the wealth or the materials that are in the country? Who's to say that this even is not going to be handled in a way of discrimination? So I say that anytime we talk about a political or economical thing, we can't just dismiss the psychological part.

Colin Edwards: You're looking for a more complete and fuller ideology, a more advanced one.

Eldridge Cleaver: That's right.

Speaker 5: It's true, is it not?

Speaker 3: Would you agree with Huey that racism got its birth through economic reasons, so that one group could superimpose its economic power over the other? That's— I would agree with that. I think that a prime thing was the economical rape of Africa. But at the same time, why did the European choose the African south of Sahara to enslave? Now, some accounts I've read by Basil Davidson and Melvin J. Herskovits stated And it's on record that the, um, the priests in Spain said— made a statement that, uh, don't enslave those Africans south— north of Sahara, because, uh, they worship one God. And, uh, but it's all right to enslave the Africans, uh, south of Sahara, because, uh, they, uh, they're pagans and they, they're, they're not humans. They, they lack a soul. So I'm saying that what has happened, uh, they needed this, this justification to, uh, condone Their political— their economical exploitation. But this sort of ran haywire. After it, it started being embedded so that the economical structure could go on, that black people don't have souls, are inferior. And now you run into a problem where that it's handled— people who don't understand the economical situation have still been embedded with the value system that black is bad and black is— you— black is evil.

Colin Edwards: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Newton. The foregoing interview is copyright 1968 by the Huey P. Newton Defense Fund, without whose specific consent no reproduction or publication of Mr. Newton's remarks can be made. This is Colin Edwards.