Alejandro Garcia, David Alvarez - Take Cuba off "State Sponsors Terrorism" List (2023)

Marcy Shaburrow: All right. Okay. So, as I said, we are going to hear from 2 speakers who will also talk about 2 of the countries on the U.S.-sponsored terrorist list, Syria and Iran. As the Land Solidarity Committee, we often do a land acknowledgment. And so, we acknowledge that European Americans who came to colonize Minnesota used genocide, violence, displacement and lies to carve the state out of the Indigenous communities already here.

Wyatt Miller: Thank you.

Marcy Shaburrow: And unfortunately, this genocide— genocidal violence continues today. We demand reparations for the institutional racism that drives our police and legal institutions, the return of lands to Indigenous nations, and the— You've got to mute Janice Schofield. I think you need to log off and log on again. Actually, no, just turn your video off and turn it back on. Okay. We'll turn off the video. And the right of true self-determination of those nations over themselves and their lands. Now, just a little bit about our committee, in case you don't know. It formed in 2019 at the time when Cuba was pretty much alone in this part of the hemisphere politically, except for Nicaragua and Venezuela, all of which are socialist states, which means they put the real needs of its people and people internationally first.

Seema Shaksari: That's it.

Marcy Shaburrow: At that time, Venezuela was in the crosshairs of U.S. imperialism and was spawning all manner of attempts at regime change and coups. Now, 4 years later, things are very different in Latin America, and Cuba is in good company. Venezuela has prevailed, and Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Bolivia, and Honduras have become a part of what is called the Pink Tide. Currently, the heroic people of Peru are fighting back to reverse a coup against their very newly elected left-leaning government. In the Middle East, Syria and Iran have also chosen to retain and maintain their sovereignty, including support of Palestinians.

Alejandro García: Whoo!

Marcy Shaburrow: Good idea. But they have paid the huge price of sanctions and shortages and being on the U.S. terrorist list. In the case of Syria, they have had to fight a long U.S.-sponsored and initiated war. And now that— let's see here— after this horrific, unbelievable, once-in-a-hundred-year earthquake, they have often been denied help because of U.S. policies. All these countries, though, don't roll over and, in fact, are beacons of light and inspiration to most of the world. We are really fortunate to have our 3 speakers today, who will talk about the adverse effects of the sanctions of being on the terrorist list, As well as how their countries— how the countries thrive and survive despite the US efforts to bring them to their knees. Marcy, take it away.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Good morning.

Wyatt Miller: Good morning.

Marcy Shaburrow: I am Marcy Shaburrow, and I am also from the Solidarity Committee of the Americas. And I think you talked about the LULUCF, right? So I don't need to talk about what is LULUCF. Basically, the Solidarity Committee of the Americas decided that it wanted to do A campaign. Basically, we decided that it would be important to do a campaign.

Wyatt Miller: I'm going to pass it.

Seema Shaksari: Okay.

Marcy Shaburrow: So we decided that we were going to do this campaign, and we're the only state right now that's doing a full-fledged campaign about it. But hopefully other states will join us. So today is the first event of the campaign.

David Ramirez Alvarez: OK.

Marcy Shaburrow: We'll also be doing call-in days to President Biden, Senators Klobuchar and Smith. We're going to bring a valentine to Senator Klobuchar when we do bannering on the bridge near her office and a rally near her office. We'll also do a vigil on the Lake Street Bridge. On February 20th. And then the last thing is we will be doing a car caravan. Meanwhile, we'll have a petition and we're going to be sending out postcards. So in order to get myself out of here so I can turn that noise off, I'm going to introduce our first speaker who's patiently waiting. David Ramirez. And David Ramirez Alvarez is the 2nd secretary of the Cuban Embassy to the United States. He represents the Republic of Cuba, and we're really excited to have him. And he's really going to talk about the impact of the list on Cuba. So, David, can you unmute? Unmute.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Hi, Marcy. Can you hear me?

Marcy Shaburrow: Yeah.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Um, first of all, I, I'd like to say hello to you guys, um, but I also like to present, uh, our Deputy Chief of Mission, who's actually present in the meeting today. His name is, uh, Alejandro García. He's the second chief of the embassy, and, uh, we are really glad to have him here with us, and I think it would be very important if he could give, like, an initial briefing about the SSOT list, and then later on I could, you know, give another update on the event.

Marcy Shaburrow: Let's welcome him.

Alejandro García: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much, David, for your introduction. So it's a great pleasure for us to be here today with you guys. there in Minnesota. We know that all of you have done in the last maybe 10, 15, 20 years a lot of work to set better relations between Cuba and the U.S. And part of that effort has been the fight to— previous to 2015—

David Ramirez Alvarez: Oh, right.

Alejandro García: —previous to that, to fight for removing Cuba from the SSOT. And now again, when Trump decided to reinsert Cuba in the list, it's a new— again, a new front for your fight and a new goal to remove Cuba from the list, which had its origin on a designation made by President Ronald Reagan. The Republican President Reagan was at that time one of the most dangerous administration for Cuba during the '80s. Reagan had 2 terms in office from 1980 to 1988. Since the beginning of his administration, he was very negative towards any kind of change between Cuba and the U.S. Since the beginning, he removed different decisions taken by President Carter to in some way flexibilize the relation between our 2 countries. And since 1990, when he got the office, he has started to change a lot of things. And one of the things that he did in 1982 was precisely to insert Cuba, to include Cuba in the OT. At that time, they argued that it was because the presence in school of some people who were fighting for their civil rights in the U.S., and at the same time with certain people of other nationalities who were fighting for the independence of Puerto Rico. But both of those things were not really a real argument for that, because both actions taken by the Cuban government regarding those persons was in connection with our constitutional law, which established the possibility for the Cuban government to defend or to host or to protect people who were fighting for civil rights, against discrimination, of any kind or again or people who were fighting for the independence of their countries. So that was the argument that the Reagan administration found to include Cuba in the terrorist list. But in fact, one of the things that they were really using was the presence of Cuban troops helping to protect and to defend the independence of Angola and other African countries, which was either a constitutional recognition in our in our, uh, constitution, because, uh, we had a history of even receiving help from around the world since the 19th century to defense or to fight for our independence, and at the same time, uh, providing help for the independence of other countries. So Reagan administration decided, uh, and used that issue about our presence in Angola to defend the Angola independence As an argument to include Cuba in the list. But during the— through the years, since 1982 until 2015, when Obama decided to remove Cuba, they just kept— all the American administration kept the inclusion of Cuba in the list, but using and changing their arguments for that. During the '80s, even Reagan, Bush father, decided to go— the continuation of the inclusion in the list because of the question of the issue about human rights in Cuba. And then during the '90s, when the collapse of the Soviet Union, they understood that there is no any reason to remove Cuba from the list because they were sure that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the socialist field, Cuba would not resist the pressure, the economic pressure on the economic situation because of after lost the 75% of our trade with the socialist camp and with the Soviet Union. So they, between the 1990 and 2015, they just continued the inclusion of Cuba in the list. Right. As a way to damage the political image of Cuba, but at the same time with all the economic implications that that decision have had for years. So that's in general how we was put in that list, how the inclusion of the list has been continuously used in different arguments by all the administrations since Reagan in 1992 And the rest of the American presidents until now, and then Obama decided to remove Cuba in 2015, knowing that or understanding that the idea to reestablish diplomatic relations with Cuba had no any sense if they wouldn't change that decision because even for Cuba, I would have had. any sense if we would have decided to reestablish the diplomatic relation being still in the list. So that was part of the resetting of the relation with Cuba. It was a critical issue to be removed from that list. And now we are in this new environment in which the Trump administration decided to— Reinsert Cuba in the list. 3 days before he left the office. And now I leave the floor for David to continue about the implications, the economic implications for being in the SSOT. And thank you, all of you.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Thank you very much, Alejandro. It's always a pleasure to have you, you know, giving your opinions on the issue. It's very important. And we're really grateful for the SCOTA team to have, you know, given us time to talk to you guys. And, you know, just express our opinions and always be grateful for your solidarity, of course. So, I think it's very important if we, you know, just state that one very important fact, which is that the Trump administration announced that they would reinclude Cuba into the State Sponsors of Terrorism list 3 days before their government ended. Wow. But the government that actually took the executive action was the Biden government. That's actually something that people sometimes do not have clear. So the Biden government had the option of just, you know, just not enforcing the list, but they actually did enforce it. And in fact, every year they have the opportunity of, you know, just writing down a paper, you know, signing off. Cuba off the list, or at least reviewing the designation of Cuba in the list. And obviously, up until now, it hasn't been done. So when you read the paper in which Cuba was reinstated in the list, you would see that it's filled with— you could call it anti-Cuba propaganda, because it's filled with adjectives, it's filled with adverbs, it's filled with—

Seema Shaksari: Right.

David Ramirez Alvarez: nonsensical information. But at the end of the day, when you look for any evidence which states that Cuba is actually sponsoring terrorism, there is no evidence. So that would be the first— I would say that it would be the first impact against Cuba in the list of terrorism for the same fact that it has a very symbolic impact against our country, because there, you know, we are being designated as a sponsor of terrorism. But at the end of the day, the same government that designates us has no valid evidence, excuse, reason to keep us there. One of the main ideas that they used for keeping us in the list of sponsors of terrorism was that Cuba was helping the military guerrilla that was having peace talks, actually, during the period that we were reinserted in the list. So it's very ironically— ironical, because the same government that is saying that Cuba should not be in the list is the same government which is being used for accusing Cuba for being in the list. It's a bit, you know— Yeah. Complicated, but it's very ironical that the president of Colombia says that it's unjust, that it's cruel to have us in the list of state sponsors of terrorism, mainly because of the main idea that is being used is that we are sponsoring, you know, the peace talks regarding Colombia inside a situation. So that would be the main idea. So regarding the impact, we could say that the impact, the harshest impact, is the one that is not seen. I mean, the information that is not seen, that cannot be evidenced, because the— What I'm trying to say is that the fact that being inserted in a list of state sponsors of terrorism has a huge impact regarding financial institutions, economic institutions, banks, financing companies, because these companies are usually required by law to undertake enhanced due diligence to assure that they are not unwillingly financing terrorist activities. So what happens is that Whenever a country is reinserted in these types of lists, they just decide not to have any types of businesses with Cuba. And the main evidence that we could use was that a couple of weeks later, after being reinserted in the list, a total of 45 banks just stopped having operations with Cuba. And obviously, that takes a huge toll on our economic situation or on our international trade. Yeah. Because definitely, you know, we're inserted in the world. So if we want to have, you know, businesses with anyone, we need to be inserted in financial institutions. So definitely the first and very harshest impact is, you know, just being excluded by banks who just are afraid of, you know, having to be— to get in trouble with the United States.

Marcy Shaburrow: I'm not going to buy it. These people don't care about that.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Yeah, I think there's somebody talking. Sorry.

Seema Shaksari: Everybody needs to feel.

David Ramirez Alvarez: So what I was saying is that right now the Biden government is— there have been talks with Cuba. And it's very funny, because it's illogical that Cuba has been having talks with the United States government Regarding law enforcement cooperation. And one of the main subjects that were used in our bilateral talks were counterterrorism, which shows how anachronistic is the fact that we are still being included in a list when at the same time we are talking bilaterally with the American government, you know, to counter law enforcement, to have law enforcement cooperation. So— More or less, those are the ideas that we wanted to show. So thank you very much.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you, David, very much for doing this. And I hope you'll stay on so we'll have some time for questions. We're going to have 2 speakers, and then we will have time for questions, and also calling on people here who are in this space to take some action, but also people who are on Zoom can take action too. So I want to thank both David and Alejandro del Toro, who is the Deputy Ambassador for Cuba in the United States. And both of them, it's— we really appreciate their willingness to take their time and share with us information on the state sponsors of terrorism.

Wyatt Miller: Yeah.

Marcy Shaburrow: I did want to mention one thing that we didn't say was who are the sponsors of this event today for— in the community. So it's the Solidarity Committee of the Americas, the Minnesota Cuba Committee, Witness for Peace Solidarity Collective, Veterans for Peace Chapter 27, Twin Cities CPUSA, Minnesota Peace Action Coalition, Women Against Military Madness, and the Antiwar Committee. So we thank all of our co-sponsors for being here with us in this campaign. So I'm going to turn it over to Sarah now. We're hoping to have the speaker, Seema Shakhar, I'm sorry. Who will speak about Iran, but she's in the ER at the U with a very, very sick cat. She's going to try to get to her car. But in the meantime, we will go forward with Wyatt Miller, who is a leading member of the Antiwar Committee. And many of you will recognize him as a car marshal, one of our best car marshals at our Cuba caravan. And in May 2021, he went to Syria. It was organized by the Syria Solidarity Movement and Arab Americans. For Syria. Let me say that again. Syria Solidarity Movement and Arabs for— didn't get the rest in. Arab Americans— no, for Syria. You can also see him frequently on Fight Back News, and he will speak to us on the effects of US sanctions and being on the terrorist list, especially during this time after the earthquake.

Wyatt Miller: Thanks, Sarah, and thanks, Skoda, for inviting me to speak here. Reading off notes because I could talk and talk and talk about Syria and my experience there. I'm going to try to keep this concise. So I just wanted to start out by saying I'm not an expert on Syria. I'm just a peace activist. As Sarah said, I'm with a Minneapolis-based group called the Anti-War Committee, and in May 2021, traveled with a peace delegation to Syria.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you.

Wyatt Miller: Spent one week in and around the Damascus area, which is the capital, part of a semi-official delegation to witness the elections that were taking place at that time and to investigate conditions that Syrians face, with the hope of building solidarity and raising awareness of the effects that US foreign policy has on life in Syria. So that said, I think this week in particular is one where, in my opinion, everyone should be talking about Syria, regardless whether You've been there or even know very much about it. And of course, I'm referring to last weekend's terrible earthquake that took place sort of near Syria's northern border with Turkey. The current estimate of the number of people who died in that tragedy stands at over 20,000. Around 4,000 or so of those were in Syria. That was as of yesterday. I haven't actually checked today. The numbers have been climbing pretty rapidly.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you.

Wyatt Miller: And then I just wanted to add too, many of the people who died in Türkiye were also Syrians because there are over 3 million Syrian refugees who actually reside in Turkey. So it's the most deadly earthquake that struck the region in around a century. And I think everybody should feel confident in demanding an end to US sanctions on Syria. So this week, actually, the Biden administration did announce that they would temporarily ease some of the sanctions on humanitarian aid. aid to Syria. And I wanted to say a few things about that. First of all, I think it's kind of a stunning admission on the U.S.'s part, because the U.S. has claimed all along, in every country that it sanctions, that, you know, that it won't stop humanitarian supplies getting into those countries. But by, you know, announcing this temporary pause on some of those sanctions, they are admitting that those sanctions were, in fact, preventing aid from getting in.

Marcy Shaburrow: Yeah.

Wyatt Miller: And to be clear, it's good that the Biden administration is doing that, if for no other reason than it shows that they're finally facing some pressure on that issue and that people are actually paying attention to sanctions for once. But more than anything, I want to stress that it's not enough. The multiple U.S. officials under both the Trump and now the Biden administration have openly acknowledged that the intention of the U.S. sanctions on Syria is to prevent reconstruction, and that has not changed even with this temporary exemption on certain supplies this week. And so the U.S. policy is to prevent the reconstruction of Syria unless the Syrian government— again, this is like open statements from U.S. officials, which I'm paraphrasing— preventing reconstruction unless the Syrian government basically agrees to let the US unilaterally appoint new leaders for Syria, dictate a new political system and a new geopolitical orientation for Syria. And specifically, the main demand that the US has always had for Syria, or at least for the last 50 or so years, is to normalize its relations with its neighbor Israel, which of course has illegally occupied Syria's Golan Heights region since 1967. And so the US also wants Syria to give up, to formally cede the Golan Heights to Israel. So until Syria capitulates to those demands and basically to give up its sovereignty under international law, our US government's policy is to collectively punish all Syrians, civilians or otherwise, and force them to live in literally ruinous conditions. And you might say that our current policies towards Syria amount to the US being on the side of the earthquake, because it just means more ruined buildings won't get rebuilt and more misery and poverty for Syrians, which, you know, has pretty much been the US policy for Syria for well over a decade now. So, you know, this little pause in certain sanctions does not change that policy. And so, of course, that the earthquake is a massive tragedy which came on top of another massive tragedy, which is the war in Syria, which has been going since 2012. Estimates put the number of Syrians who have died as over half a million, and which has been fueled by US policy in a variety of ways. So one of my most immediate impressions, actually, when we traveled to Syria was that in many areas, and particularly in the Damascus area where we went to, the war is effectively over. The government has restored control to all areas around Damascus, and while there were occasional checkpoints here and there, we were able to travel around the area relatively freely, which for me was a surprise. But the scars of war were still visible everywhere. In some neighborhoods, it was just, you know, a few bullet holes here and there on walls, but in others, the destruction was almost total. with these ruined apartment buildings and these giant mounds of concrete rubble stretching almost as far as you can see. So there, even before this earthquake, obviously there was an almost unimaginable amount of rebuilding that needed to happen. But despite all that, at the time of our trip, which again was about a year and a half ago, the people we spoke with were actually quite hopeful. There was some reconstruction happening. Here and there. And you, you, we would see as we drove through even some of the most war-damaged neighborhoods that there were, there were new renovated apartments popping up. And sometimes it was quite jarring to see where there'd be a whole building and there'd be a couple really nice cleaned up, newly rebuilt balconies in an otherwise, you know, heavily damaged uninhabited building. And the people we spoke with Obviously, they complained about the sanctions causing a slow pace of reconstruction and a lot of difficulties in daily life. And so, like I say, obviously they asked me to convey the message to lift the sanctions. But the other message they conveyed was that things were getting better, and they encouraged our delegation to tell Syrians who live abroad that, you know, now was a time that they could start to consider moving back. to their homes. But unfortunately, in the year and a half since the trip, that progress has been reversed. New US sanctions have taken effect, especially these— so it's called the Caesar Act, which was passed in 2019, and it only more recently is kind of its effects have made their way through the Syrian economy. Last year, the Syrian currency collapsed, which was connected to a similar economic collapse in Syria's neighbor Lebanon. And that in turn was actually caused by US sanctions on Lebanon, or at least partially caused by that. Meanwhile, the US military continues to occupy the oil fields of eastern Syria, which is perennially underreported in the media. It's done— this occupation takes place without even the usual kind of flimsy legalistic justifications that the US usually uses for these things. Instead, it is just essentially a might is right, right of conquest act that the US military has been part of since 2015. President Trump famously named that policy Keep the Oil. So it's very blatant. And, you know, Biden has kind of backed away from that language, but the policy remains effectively the same. And under those conditions now, the Conditions for Syrians have gotten so bad, according to reports, that most Syrians only get 2 or 3 hours of electricity per day. Gasoline is so scarce and so expensive that most people can't even afford to drive to their workplaces. And it's gotten so drastic that the government has actually shifted recently to a 4-day workweek. And that is largely just due to, like, basic logistical challenges that people face getting to and from their places of work and carrying out their duties. And there's bakeries that have been closing. Staples as basic as cooking and heating oil are so scarce that, according to some reports, people are actually burning trash to heat their homes and cook their food. So it's pretty bad. And to tie it back to the topic of the U.S. so-called state sponsors of terrorism list, Syria has been on that list since it was created in the late 1970s. I believe it is one of the only countries that has continuously been on that list since that time. And the horrific humanitarian situation in Syria now is the result not just of the consequences of the sanctions themselves, but also in how Syria has been portrayed to the American public and to the world through things like labeling them sponsors of, so, you know, quote-unquote terrorism. US policies towards Syria have not only directly destroyed Syria, but also dehumanized Syrian people, portraying the country as a zone of permanent destruction, as though that's somehow the natural order of things in that part of the world, which of course it's not. It's a consequence of actions of, in many ways, the United States government. And I'll add to that, many Syrians we spoke to on our delegation were adamant that in fact it's the United States that is the real state sponsor of terrorism. Terrorism inside Syria. And they're not wrong. The US, along with some of its regional allies, quite literally bankrolled the war on Syria for many years, arming and paying the salaries. And again, this is openly— this is not like a theory. This is starting with the Obama administration. The open official policy was for the United States to pay hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars of salaries of the disunited patchwork of Contra groups that supposedly comprised the so-called Free Syrian Army. I say supposedly because there was never any unified command of those groups. It was simply a kind of hodgepodge of militias, some local and others foreign, coming from places as far-flung as Uzbekistan, China, France, and the UK. So again, that's why I avoid We're calling them rebels because many of those people came from outside Syria. A significant number of those US-armed and paid fighters would eventually take their guns and defect to even more extreme reactionary groups like al-Qaeda and Daesh, which is the Arabic acronym for what's popularly referred to as ISIS. And at the same time, the US supported the self-declared so-called Syrian National Council, which was a political group based outside of Syria as a potential regime change replacement for President Bashar al-Assad's government, despite the fact that none of those Contra militias the US was backing inside Syria supported that group. So in other words, the US clearly never intended for the armed groups that it was supporting to overthrow the Syrian government themselves. They merely backed them and continue to back them as a way to terrorize the Syrian people into caving to US political demands. So with that, I will conclude by saying that we all need to demand not only the end of US sanctions on Syria, but for a broad change in US policy towards Syria, to let Syrians rebuild, let Syria rebuild, let Syrians recover from the war and the earthquake, to end the occupation, the US occupation of Syria's oil fields, And decades of dehumanization and destabilizing plots to coerce the Syrian people and let Syrians determine their own future. Thank you.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you. Thank you, Lara. Thank you so much. And Seema is on now. Seema, can you hear us?

Seema Shaksari: Yes. Hi. Can you hear me?

Marcy Shaburrow: Yes. Seema Shaksari is the chair of the Department of Gender, Women, and Sexuality at the U of M Twin Cities. And the co-founder of the No Sanctions on Iran Coalition. They will speak on the effect of U.S. sanctions on the Iranian people. And thank you for doing this, even with your sick cat. Thank you so much.

Seema Shaksari: Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I'm sorry I'm talking to you from my car. I just stepped out of the vet hospital ER. My cat is not doing well. So I just want to speak About the sanctions on Iran, of course, as many of you know, there have been massive protests in Iran since September 11, when Mahsa Jina Amini was killed while at the custody of the Iranian Guidance Patrol. And of course, a lot of these protests, even though it was about basically hijab and the enforcement of what was considered by the guidance patrol as improper hijab, it was basically kind of a match that ignited longstanding discontents from all, you know, all kind of different groups of Iranian people. And a big part of that has to do with economic situation in Iran, the dire economic situation that has pushed people into poverty. The middle class is effectively and practically disappearing or has disappeared. And a lot of that has to do with the US sanctions on Iran. As many of you know, the US has basically put sanctions on Iran from the beginning of the Iranian Revolution in 1979. At different times, the sanctions have changed. And In 2010, under Obama's administration, the harshest sanctions in the history of sanctions on Iran under CISA, the Comprehensive Sanctions Accountability and Divestment Act, was passed. And that created a really difficult situation for many Iranians. My work is with queer and trans refugees, and the number of refugees, queer and trans refugees who left Iran right after 2010 just skyrocketed, and Afghan refugees who had lived in Iran for over 2 decades, but with the dire economic situation, they had to leave Iran and hope for being resettled in a 3rd country of asylum. And all of that was because of the economic pressures that the sanctions put on the Iranian people. The most vulnerable segments of the Iranian population, in particular working-class people, single mothers, trans women, queers, children who basically are houseless, and so on and so forth. And then, of course, in 2015, there was the JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, which gave some sanctions relief to Iran, but, you know, didn't completely lift the sanctions. But that helped to a certain extent. But again, you know, with Trump in the office in 2018, the U.S. withdrew from the sanctions. And the situation, the economic situation in Iran is so dire that the Iranian currency is the least valued currency in the world right now. And that has meant that people are living in really difficult situations. And of course, there are strikes. And a lot of protests have to do also with the fact that people don't have access to food, don't have access to medicine, in particular medicine for life-threatening diseases. My own sister passed away from cancer, and it was extremely difficult to have access to chemotherapy. And, you know, that is for someone who can afford to even buy that medicine in black markets. So for a lot of people who could not and cannot afford chemotherapy, that has been devastating. So like I said, the sanctions have caused a lot of agony for the Iranian people. And a lot of the protests that we have been seeing are because of— exactly because of these issues and the mismanagement of the Iranian state. I cannot exonerate the Iranian state. There have been sanctions profiteering, which means that basically the sanctions— the U.S. conservatives are pro-sanctions, and they are basically profiting from this, as well as conservative elements within the Iranian state and parastate entities that have been profiting from the sanctions, while ordinary people, the most vulnerable segments of the Iranian society, have been suffering. Sanctions also have had devastating environmental impact on Iran. Exactly because particularly since 2010, after Obama— it started then— after Obama sanctions, the Iranian state, rather than sending its petroleum to be processed in refineries outside of Iran, as it used to do before, because it doesn't have the capacity to do it itself, started refining petroleum inside with the homegrown industries, which meant that the fuel that the people use in their households has, depending on the kind of fuel, 10 to 800 times more than the international standard of toxins and carcinogenic elements in it. And that is why we have a higher rates of disease, higher rates of death, and also cancer in Iran. Right. And last but not least is that the sanctions have not helped the Iranian social movements. They have actually harmed them in great ways, because sanctions are war by another name, which means that the Iranian state basically penalizes any kind of dissent, any kind of protest, because of the sanctions and the pressure that the sanctions is putting on Iran. They're basically— they have been accusing the protesters as being basically brainwashed or being elements of the foreign enemies. And thousands and thousands of people have been arrested in the recent protests, and they all have been basically accused of working for the US, exactly because any kind of protest, any kind of dissent becomes impossible, any kind of movement for social justice, including women's rights, movement has become penalized as such. So the sanctions actually do not help the movements, and they harm them. One last thing is how, you know, the claim of the US is that Iran— well, at least in the past few years has been that the sanctions— and we are talking about blanket sanctions, not targeted sanctions on specific individuals— Those are because of the Iranian nuclear activity, which you know Iran has had multiple times. The Security Council has visited, and they haven't found actually any trace of bomb, whereas Israel has active missiles and nuclear missiles, and it's not subjected. The state of Israel is not subjected to sanctions. Nor it had it signed the NPT. So we we see a discrepancy here, and we see exactly how basically U.S. policies, U.S. U.S. imperialism and colonial policies are really a part of why these sanctions are imposed on the Iranian people, and they're actually killing the Iranian people. We saw in Syria how the U.S. just in the past 23 hours, 24 hours—I don't know—I've been in the ER, so I don't remember exactly when it was. But they gave humanitarian relief to Syria too little, too late. Many people died while this happened, and also the infrastructure has been damaged. So I think the previous speaker was talking about Syria, but you can't just all of a sudden, after a disaster that has killed over 23,000 people combined in Turkey and Syria, You cannot just all of a sudden say, "Well, look, we are humanitarian. We are for humanitarian aid, or we are for human rights." That is completely paradoxical, considering the damage that the sanctions have caused to the Syrian people and infrastructure. Same thing with the disaster that happened in Iran just last week in Khoy. There was an earthquake. It didn't have as many. That's— I can't even say fortunately because people died still. But exactly because even with humanitarian aid, you know, there are claims that, well, the US allows medicine or humanitarian aid. That is absolutely false, even if it's on the paper. In the case of Iran, I know that for sure because my nieces are doctors, that medical appliances that are life-saving during COVID We saw the effect of that, and medication are not basically the pharmaceutical companies cannot sell those to Iran exactly because the Central Bank of Iran is subjected to sanctions. So any company that has transactions through the Central Bank is penalized. Therefore, many pharmaceutical companies do not and did not sell medication to the Iranian hospitals. Same thing with humanitarian aid. So many organizations lost their OFAC license here, which gives them basically the ability to send humanitarian aid to Iran exactly because of the security, so-called national security concerns in the US. So I will just end. I know I don't have much time, but basically Unlike the claims of the U.S. politicians and some of the Iranian diaspora who believe that the sanctions are actually harming the Iranian state, they are not. They are actually— they haven't for 44 years. Today is the anniversary of the Iranian Revolution. 44 years ago on this day, the revolution against the Pahlavi regime's tyranny happened. To this day, The sanctions have not actually changed the state, the Iranian regime, but they have enabled sanctions profiteering and have created a huge gap between those 1% of the population in Iran that has access to all kinds of, you know, wealth, but The majority of Iranian population doesn't. And that is also one of the main reasons we see these protests, because people are angry that there are a select few who enjoy the kind of lifestyle that they do inside Iran and investments outside of Iran, while the Iranian people, the ordinary Iranian people, are subjected to the sanctions. So that's all I wanted to say. If there's anything else that you wanted me to talk about, Sarah, let me know.

Marcy Shaburrow: Oh, thank you for making time on this morning. So, sure. All right. Okay. All right. Then just quick things. Jairus is going to pass the bucket. We do have some expenses, but— She's got the microphone. Oh, you want that? Okay. For discussion. I see 2 on the back table. At the back table, there are— there's all kinds of stuff. So look at it. Also Palestinian olive oil for $23. It was really good Palestinian olive oil. So $23 a bottle if you're interested. Make it out to, uh, I guess it's on, it's on the— don't make it out to Wham. Go ahead, Gerald. No, no, no, we're not yet at the questions. We're going to do announcements first. So, um, is this the right one? Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that campaign against state sponsors of terrorism and removing Cuba from the list and some of the activities that we're going to have. And we're going to also ask you to take action starting today. But we have 3 different things you can do. So just to tell you that starting This coming Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, we have call-in days to President Biden and Senators Klobuchar and Smith. And there's a flyer back there that explains kind of all the things that are happening, but also the phone numbers. And we have scripts on the flyers, so please pick them up. And participate in the call-in days. The call-in days will work if more people call in. So ask your friends, ask anybody you know to call in on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. You can call the senators' offices on Monday, but the White House only takes calls on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, unfortunately. There's no voicemail. There's no voicemail. Yeah, right. Let's sign them up with an account. Yeah, we're going to get them a voicemail account. So the other thing is that on Tuesday, on Valentine's Day, we're going to do battering on the Washington Avenue Bridge near Senator Klobuchar's office and walk to her office and do a rally at the office. We're going to send her a Valentine's message, take Cuba off. The U.S. terror list. At that event, we're also going to deliver a letter to her urging her support in advocating with President Biden to remove Cuba from the terrorism list. So be sure to pick up the script to call on the call-in days. And then on Wednesday, February 22nd, we will have the Wham vigil on Lake Street Bridge. We'll focus on Cuba's inclusion on the U.S. terrorism list, and again, we'll be asking that it be removed. And on Sunday, February 26th, our car caravan will focus again on removing Cuba from the State sponsors of terrorism lists. And the rally is on the 26th at 1 PM at South High parking lot. All that information is on the kind of information sheet back there, so you can learn about participating and joining us and supporting us in this effort. So here's your task for today. There's one more task before I tell you your task for today. There's the Witness for Peace Solidarity Collective has made available their app to use for a petition. So there's a flyer, if you can see it, that talks about the petition, what's in the petition, All you got to do is go and sign it. You have until February 27th, so you have lots of time to go and sign the petition. The more that we have, the better. And the petition is aimed at our local officials, Senator Klobuchar and Senator Tina Smith. And then the last thing is what to do today. Well, it's not the last thing. We have some other activities.

Wyatt Miller: Yes.

Marcy Shaburrow: So, but is— we have these postcards, these beautiful postcards made by Christina Wham, and they're Persian. No, it's— no. Yeah. Anyway, the postcards are to Senator Klobuchar, Senator Smith, and President Biden. And each color is a different— to a different official.

Alejandro García: Wow.

Marcy Shaburrow: Please sign it and give it back to us. We'll mail them. You don't have to mail them unless you want to. And please sign it while you're here today. And make sure and sign all 3. We need to tell all 3 about what their tasks are. And mainly it's President Biden. His task is to do an executive order and get rid of the—

Wyatt Miller: The war.

Marcy Shaburrow: Cuba on the state sponsors of terrorism list. And then we just wanted to tell you about one more thing that we're doing with the Minnesota-Cuba Committee and Witness for Peace, and that is to have a watch party on Saturday, March 11th, with the national U.S.-Cuba normalization is doing a conference and some Most of us aren't going to fly to New York. We're going to do a 1-day watch party where you can come and go, get some food, and join us watching the conference and the speakers. So basically now we're going to go on to the questions. And so I'm going to ask him if there's any—

Wyatt Miller: No.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Zoom. Okay.

Marcy Shaburrow: So we're going to start with questions in this room. Sarah and I have some questions if you don't have any, but it would be better if people raise their hand and have questions. So Jairus is going to be the microphone person. Okay, this is Carla, and I'm listening to all these explanations of things going on around the world. Just hold it close to your shoulder. Is this better? Yeah. Okay. I'm listening to all the sanctions, and I understand and believe and support all of that, but I'm almost thinking that we need to go a step back and start worrying about the United States policy of the whole country and the peoples about trying to save the world and make us all Part of democracy. That seems to be the whole purpose of why we're in Ukraine, because we're saving— or we're not in Ukraine, but because we're supporting with weapons, is that we're saving the world for democracy. And somehow or other, we're not— that's not our role, I don't think. So that's my point. So I just wanted to mention that David Ramirez is still on Zoom watching us, being participating with us, and he's here to answer questions. So this would be a good time if you have questions for him. Go ahead. Yes, there's somebody over there. I don't have a question for David, but I was just gonna say that there's a, there's a saying that, that I read a long time ago that something like fighting a war is like fighting an earthquake. And I think that's a really good metaphor, that if we could somehow get that out to people about— well, this is regarding the war in Ukraine. Fighting a war is like fighting an earthquake. An earthquake. People could relate to that, because we're seeing all those horrible pictures, if we can stand to even watch them. We're seeing these horrible pictures. And if we could somehow connect the war scene with the earthquake, Fighting a war is like fighting an earthquake.

Wyatt Miller: Yeah, um, David, you're on, still on, right? Um, uh, I'm with the Veterans Peace. Yeah, and we just, uh, we just had our, our, our sailboat, the Golden Rule, sailed into Solana Harbor, and, uh, we had a couple people that were actually there, uh, in the audience here today that That's great, Ted. And I just want you to know that we're a veterans group that's a peace group and that we're all in on ending the blockade. I was there right before the pandemic, and it's amazing the resiliency and what the Cuban people have done while we have our knees firmly on your neck. It's amazing what— and I can't— I look forward to the day when we've freed Cuba from all these draconian sanctions, and finally they're able to join the nations of the world as a strong and active force. And thank you for coming out and talking with us today.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you. Every time I think of Cuba and the United States and why Cuba survived, And the people in the United States really aren't surviving very well. Gerardo González Hernández, the Cuban Five leader, he did a cartoon. He was really a cartoonist. He did a cartoon with Uncle Sam in Miami with a cannon pointing towards Cuba. And on Cuba's side, he had Fidel. Fidel just had his arm up with the muscles showing. And inside the mussel were the people, the Cuban people. And that was just so brilliant. Every time I think about why Cuba continues to win, even though we suffer a great deal, it's because of people like the Cuban Five who represent the Cuban people. Thank you.

Wyatt Miller: Thank you so much. That's beautiful. My name is Rick. I'm an investor. My question is, how many doctors has Cuba sent in this last period? To South America and Central America, and tell us a little bit about the medical school that you built in South Africa.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Yes, very good question. Thank you very much. Can you hear me?

Marcy Shaburrow: Yes.

David Ramirez Alvarez: OK, thank you. Yes, we've— during the pandemic, we actually sent out different brigades to not only to South America and to the Western Hemisphere, We were able to send brigades to different corners of the world, medical brigades to Africa, to Asia, even to Europe. We sent actually a small brigade to Turin, Italy, when the harshest moment during the pandemic in Italy was hitting its region. I cannot give you an exact number, but I would say that During the pandemic, we actually sent around 1,500 doctors around the world to help out the people which were struggling against COVID-19. But in the last 40 years, you could say that it's been around like around 25,000 doctors And a little bit, like almost double that number of medical assistants, nurses, specialists, that have, you know, worked all around the world with, you know, mainly giving out solidarity in different disasters. For example, we are now sending to Syria and Turkey 2 different medical brigades to help out after the horrible earthquake. Which has, you know, hit their country with so many victims. And, well, we're now trying to, you know, lend a hand, because that's what we try to do around the world. We try to be solidarity. We're not interested in wars. We're not interested in violence. We're just— we just want to help out. And we never ask for anything in return, which is actually a principle which was actually instated by our commander-in-chief, Fidel Castro. And we try to keep his name always in our presence, because he's like our guiding star, our North Star. And the second question, I think you were referring to the ELAM, were you? The School of Latin American Medical Students. That is a school—

Marcy Shaburrow: Yes.

David Ramirez Alvarez: that has existed for almost 40 years now. And we've been able to graduate different students from all around the world who go to Cuba and study for free. In fact, there have been many students from the United States that have graduated from the School of Medicine. I don't know if that's answering your question.

Marcy Shaburrow: OK, thank you. Was there one on— Yeah, there is. Oh, Sarah, why don't you read it? I just shortened it. Has there been any change in public opinion towards Cuba in recent years? Have you noticed any change?

David Ramirez Alvarez: Okay, in the public opinion from the people of the United States?

Marcy Shaburrow: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Okay, so, um, uh, definitely, uh, unfortunately media has a very big role on the public opinion. Unfortunately, we had a period during the Obama government where the newspapers, the TV networks, they tried to portray a different point of view regarding our country, where, you know, where they tried to promote somehow the positive aspects of our country regarding education, healthcare, even tourism. But then, all of a sudden, you could say that after government change, government shifting, you know, the mass media plays a very important role in public opinion. And definitely, it changed public opinion regarding our country from the American point of view, changed a little bit. I think the main problem that we have regarding the perception of Americans regarding our country is that there is a lot of disinformation. There is a lot of fake news. There is a lot of infrastructure which promotes fake news media, which is repeated and repeated and, you know, reinserted in the Americans' perception.

Seema Shaksari: Yeah.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Mindset and way of thinking, of imagining our country. So, for us, every time we talk about public opinion, we always ask the people of the United States who have a certain point of view towards our country, we tell them, OK, so— If you really think that Cuba is like that, then just travel to Cuba and see it with your own eyes. I've talked to people who say that Cuba is a country where there are tanks on the roads, that there are military personnel guarding the streets, that you cannot— you are not safe, that you are not secure, that if you travel there, you go through a certain number of risks. And there's nothing more untruthful than that. And there's nothing like— More unrelated to the reality of our country than that. And that's why every time you guys, solidarity movements, go to Cuba, we are really grateful, because you show to the world the reality of our country. You show it with your own eyes. You tell the people that everything that is being portrayed in mass media is fake. So, for that, I am, and the Cuban people, have always been grateful.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you. Thank you. Another question. A lot of— this is Marcy talking.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Yeah.

Marcy Shaburrow: A lot of the US government kind of anti-Cuba rhetoric is always around human rights. And you had told me about this event that's coming up in Geneva where The Cuban kind of— I don't exactly understand what it is, but maybe if you could explain what's happening. And I guess I'm concerned when you were talking about that there's going to be kind of a review of Cuban human rights in the UN, that the US is going to be attacking and attacking. And so it's important to organize people in solidarity with Cuba to write letters and let the UN know our view about human rights in Cuba. So if you could just explain a little bit about what this is.

David Ramirez Alvarez: Okay. Okay. So every 4 and a half years, the UN hosts an event which is called the Universal Periodic Review, which has to do mainly with human rights, with civil rights, and What they do is that they evaluate different countries. This year, one of the countries which will be evaluated is our country. There are different sets of reports which are given out. One is given out by the mission, the Cuban mission in the U.N., where we talk about our, you know, our positive points, our negative points, our challenges. How we protect human rights, how we are struggling with some specific points or not. And it's a report that we emit. But there is another report which is given out by NGOs, political activists, social activists, organizations, associations from all around the world. So what happens is that usually when Some organizations, some NGOs use this type of events to attack our country using the same disinformation that we were talking about earlier. Usually they use facts that don't exist, which are fabricated, which are not based on real evidence, on real statistics, or even, you know, on official statistics. But somehow they tend to portray their point of view against our country and generate a big, a big fuss and a big media show regarding the issue. So, as I was telling to you, for the Cuban society, for the Cuban people, it is always good to have the help of the solidarity committees, of solidarity organizations, to lend a hand, to tell the truth about our country. to give your own perception and your own point of view about how Cuba is, how Cuba has to work harder on a specific subject. And definitely, if you guys participated in this type of event, we would definitely be very grateful. More or less, that's what I explained to you the other week.

Marcy Shaburrow: So thank you. And just to let you know that, and people in the I'm zooming in this group that, um, CODA is planning to write a letter to— we, um, I'm trying to learn how, what should be included. There's a lot of effort on the national level to educate each other about, um, writing these letters. So, um, we will be doing that, and we will certainly look for support for this. So Sarah has a thank you so much. Did you have a question? Did you have a question? Yeah. Well, before I comment, the second me. Yeah, I have a comment. Yeah, it's the you know the U.S. Congress recently passed a resolution. Democrats in the large majority as well, denouncing what they call, whatever it is, socialism. And if you attach that, and so that gives them a great excuse. Now, of course, I guess Venezuela socialist, you say that.

Wyatt Miller: Why?

Marcy Shaburrow: I don't know.

Wyatt Miller: But they have no right whatsoever to talk about that.

Marcy Shaburrow: You know, but, but so my point is that it's not just the news media, it is the imperialist people in power that have all their feet up on the backs of people they— well, why they don't like Cuba is not even clear.

Wyatt Miller: But they don't like it because of examples.

Marcy Shaburrow: Yeah, I guess that's what it is. I mean, A terrible example because, my God, they send medical— they're cutting back medical schools in the United States. They don't want more medical schools in the US.

Wyatt Miller: My father's a doctor.

Marcy Shaburrow: He was the head of the Department of Medicine at the University of California. But he wasn't for that.

Wyatt Miller: But that is the official policy. Yeah.

Marcy Shaburrow: And yeah, I'm going to have you look through that too. But the example they set is horrendous, but they totally ignore it. I'm sorry. All right. Another question. Why can't we have it here? Thank you. It's 2 questions here. First of all, Both for Wyatt and for David, what is the impact on the US actually of these countries being on the terrorist list? What did you say, David? No, I didn't say anything. Okay. What is the impact actually on people in this country of the US being— of these countries, of Syria and of Cuba being on the terrorist list?

Wyatt Miller: My answer would be that, as I mentioned, I think It misleads the public, and it effectively helps dehumanize the people of those countries in the eyes of the American public. Obviously, especially since 2001, there's been a very intense push. You know, a lot of baggage comes with the word terrorism now in American culture. And it kind of helps to reinforce this idea that the people of these countries are, you know, that death, it's okay when people are dying in these countries because these are just sort of vague terrorism zones.

Marcy Shaburrow: Preventable.

Wyatt Miller: And yeah, and it distracts, as others have said, it distracts people from the successes that these countries have had at Serving their own people, carving out their own direction, their own path, and showing, demonstrating alternatives to the one that the United States presents.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you. David, do you have something to add to that?

David Ramirez Alvarez: Yeah, I'd say the main impact is the impact that cannot be counted, you know, quantified. Or tabulated, you would say in English. The main impact is the fact that it has a very strong dissuasion effect towards companies, enterprises that would, in another situation, have no trouble, no problem trading with our country, and all of a sudden, just because of being on this cruel list, They just decide not to help out, not to trade with our country. They just decide to trade with other countries and not go through the trouble of being called a terrorist promoter or something like that. So, definitely, the U.S. people, the U.S. small businesses, the U.S. medium-sized businesses, even the public sector, could have the opportunity of trading with Cuba if they wanted. Yeah. Unfortunately, there is a blockade which has been in place for more than 60 years. And on top of that, there is a list of sponsors of terrorism, which also has an impact on the fact that Americans cannot trade normally, do not have the freedom of trading normally with Cuba, as they do with other countries. And it's actually a very important point of view that should be promoted more. Americans do not have the freedom, do not have the human rights to travel to Cuba, because their government do not allow them to. Their government prohibits them to get to Cuba, because they have to go through certain licenses and are not allowed whatsoever to do tourism in our country. Americans are not allowed to trade with our country. So, that is actually a point of view which many Americans have no idea that That actually happens to them, to their own human rights, which the American government usually promotes and uses as an excuse to, to, to averse our country. So, definitely, the impact is huge. The impact is very negative against our finances, against foreign investment. And definitely, The main issue is that with the stroke of a pen, Cuba could be removed off the list. The Biden government has executive power to just remove us without, you know, having any political effect or any political damage to his presidency. But that's a point of view which is very important.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you. We have another question, I think. Hi, everybody. My name's Amina, and I'm from Canada, and I'm here part-time too. So I just want to say thank you to the speakers, and I'm kind of new around here, so I'm happy to join all of you. I had the privilege of going to Cuba in Canada. Millions of people go every single year. Of course, under this pandemic, it's been a bit more difficult because of travel. But I had the privilege of working with another trade unionist who said, let's go to Cuba in the winter. And millions of Canadians go all the time. And I'm learning a lot about the history of Canada and Cuba, which is very long and very beautiful. But also, I'm Pakistani, and it was interesting for me to learn how Cuba also sent doctors during an earthquake in 2006. to the northwest frontier provinces. And Cuba has also, you know, trained physicians from Pakistan. And I think it's really interesting just understanding political economies, how Pakistan is a nation that's been an ally to the United States, has fought the war on terrorism, but has horrible human development and poverty. But you have places like Cuba, and you have places like Syria, where I also had an opportunity to live in Syria.

Wyatt Miller: Yeah.

Marcy Shaburrow: where you have a high literacy, you have amazing education, you have amazing healthcare. And I think it's incumbent on us to do solidarity delegations. And I know that one's coming up in May, and I'm probably going to one. And I just wanted to ask— yeah, I just wanted to ask David, like, how do you think we should keep doing the solidarity work in places like America? Like, how do we get more young people to go so that they can see for themselves that there aren't, you know, whatever authoritarian, you know, regime or whatever language that people want to use here. But when you actually go there, I've told people that it's so safe. Like, there's no guns, first of all, and it's like completely the opposite of what you think. You need to go there to see it. So I was just curious what David thinks about how do we encourage more people? How do we support For more trade unionists and activists to come through the US for delegation? How do we enable the poor people who don't have the money to go to the internet? They can't afford to go. And after David answers, Dwight, do you want to answer that one?

David Ramirez Alvarez: Yeah. Yeah, thank you. That was a very good question. Definitely the best way to get the people of the United States to learn the truth about Cuba is, you know, breaking the firewall of disinformation, you know, this huge firewall that is promoted by mass media and, you know, the main media networks in the United States and all around the world that project and portray a false point of view of our country. So the best way of doing that is using the same tools that the enemies use against our country, using mass media, using social media, Going to Cuba, traveling to Cuba and showing the people of Cuba, I mean, media, live videos, posts on Instagram, on TikTok, on, you know, whatever social media, or all of them at the same time, has actually had a very interesting effect. Some young guys that traveled to Cuba a couple of months ago posted live footage of videos of of elections in our country, and it actually had a big impact in the United States, because people had no idea that we had elections, which is something very funny, because we've always had elections on different levels. And that's another way of showing the truth about our country, talking about points that usually are unknown about our country. People in the United States do not know that we had a national referendum to change the constitution in 2019. People in the United States do not know that we had a national referendum on the Families Code, which gave many rights to hundreds of thousands of people in Cuba that did not have regarding LGBTQ rights, regarding trans rights, regarding all types of children's, women's rights. And it was all voted in a high number of percentage of people. It was passed by more than 66% of the national population in a national vote. So people have no idea in the United States that we have so many gains in the social sphere, in promoting women's choice to to, you know, do what they wish with their bodies, and things like that, that sometimes have a huge contrast with the reality in other countries. And somehow they are unknown regarding our country around the world. So the best way to break this firewall of this information is using their own— the same tools that you have in your hands, which is your cellphone.

Marcy Shaburrow: Right.

David Ramirez Alvarez: You know, talking to your friends at the university, at the college, the high school, whatever. And, you know, just tell them. And, you know, the smallest— the smallest thing that you do to help our country is like another, you know, stepping stone towards changing the reality that Americans have regarding the truth of our nation. So, whatever you do, we will definitely be very grateful.

Marcy Shaburrow: Thank you. Thanks, David. Wyatt, anything you'd like to add in terms of Syria?

Wyatt Miller: Well, I guess I'll just add to the general question of how to get more people involved. I think an interesting thing, at least in the United States, is from what I sort of see in my life at least, is I think a lot of people, including young people, are distrustful of the US government and the things it says. And the media, um, you know, in kind of an intuitive sense. Like, people understand that something is wrong here, conditions are not improving for us, um, and we're being told inaccurate information. But I, I often— I, I think the problem is, um, people feel so disempowered and feel so disconnected from political life that it's really easy for people to kind of think, well, I'm just some person and I can't, you know, I, you know, somebody else, somebody somewhere else who is more knowledgeable or has credential, they're probably working on this and they should be doing this. When in fact, like, it— there is no, you know, no one's going to come and save us. It's us who have to do that work. And the challenge, I think, is actually mobilizing people and bringing them into organizations like Solidarity Committee of the Americas, or like my group, Antiwar Committee, for example. And it's a big challenge, and, you know, kind of the perennial challenge of organizing. But I think it just shows that those of us who are in the room now, who, who kind of have reached a level where we want to participate, we want to be involved, like having this capacity To organize is important so that when there are moments, um, where people, ordinary people who aren't normally going out in the streets, um, like here in Minneapolis we saw with the George Floyd uprising, for instance, um, and being organized now, even in these periods where there's not as much activity, um, we can be prepared to engage with more people and to, um, find ways that when they do take that first step, we can bring them in and empower them and help make new leaders out of people like that.