Al Jazeera - Hamas Spokesperson Osama Hamdan - Interview (October 27 2023)

Speaker 1: As Israel continues what's being described by human rights organizations as an attempted genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza, the war of narratives continues. Israel and its allies in Washington, London, Paris, and practically every other European capital insist that Tel Aviv is defending itself against Hamas, which they consider to be a terrorist organization that has committed atrocities. The thousands that have been killed in Gaza are at worst unfortunate collateral for a necessary war that Israel must win, or at best made up numbers. That's essentially what many Israeli and Western officials have been saying. Hamas has been accused of decapitating babies, launching rockets from hospitals, using civilians as human shields, and fabricating the numbers of those killed. Let's take a sidebar and talk to Osama Hamdan, a spokesperson of Hamas and a senior member of the group. Mr. Osama Hamdan, thank you very much for joining us on Sidebar. I want to start by asking a question that many people have been asking. Why did Hamas undertake the operations and conduct the attack on October 7th this year?

Osama Hamdan: Well, it's clear that Hamas announced that from the first day. According to the policies of this government led by Netanyahu, he was planning and he was acting to make an end for the Palestinian cause, attacking Al-Aqsa Mosque, trying to divide the mosque between the Muslims and the Jewish people, trying to Judaize the holy city of Al-Quds, and building new settlements in West Bank. I have to remind everyone that in a few months, this government issued 150 orders to build new settlements or to build more apartments in available city settlements. And they are putting us on the siege. They are undermining the chances for building a Palestinian state. And they are trying to avoid all the needs of the Palestinians, killing more Palestinians every day. So there must be a reaction. And that was the reaction from the resistance. because we have warned everyone the policies of the Israeli government is creating instability. It will lead for more complications. In fact, the Israelis were not listening to anyone. I believe the military operation was to clarify that the Palestinians are still standing for their rights. They are still willing to have their independent sovereign state with Jerusalem as a capital. And also they will defend their rights even if there was no support for them.

Speaker 1: Does the policies of building illegal settlements or trying to take over al-Aqsa Mosque, does this justify killing innocent women and children and civilians in kibbutzes and, as reported and claimed by the Israelis, decapitating babies?

Osama Hamdan: Well, everyone knows that was not the real story. And unfortunately, the international media are still asking the same question after 20 years, if 20 days, sorry, of killing the Palestinians in Gaza. And after 75 years of the occupation, killing the Palestinians every day. Israel started by killing the Palestinians and they are continuing that. The massacre of Darius in 1948, the massacres of Al-Tantouraq, of Al-Qasim, The massacre of Sabra and Shatila, 3,000 Palestinians, women, children, and all men were killed in two days. And we are talking now about the massacre in Gaza. So they have the history of killing the Palestinians all the time, and now someone is shouting they are killing the women and the children. They are doing this and that. Why the fact is not like this? Everyone knows that they are lying, and they know that they are lying. I have to tell you to what Yair Lapid has said a few days ago. He said for the international media, if the international media was objective, it will serve Hamas. If the international media reports both sides, it will serve Hamas. If you as international media created symmetry on both sides, it will serve Hamas. Why he is saying this? Because he knows that his story is lies And this story can't stand from the real facts on the ground, which is the occupation. The problem is the occupation. No one has to start asking about any consequences. You have to start from scratch point. Why all this is happening? Because of the occupation. So the solution, you don't have to ask the victim why you have reacted. You have to ask the occupier, why you are occupying the Palestinian lands, why you are killing the Palestinians, And you have to make an end for this occupation.

Speaker 1: Mr. Hamdan, I've spoken to several Israeli officials, amongst them the architect of the Oslo Accords, Mr. Yossi Beilin, who said that the problem isn't the occupation. The problem is that Hamas took over Gaza and that Hamas doesn't know, as he's put it, doesn't know how to behave. And that if Hamas behaved the way in which the Israelis expect them to behave, then all of the killings that are taking place in Gaza wouldn't happen. Why don't you behave the way the Israelis want you to behave?

Osama Hamdan: Okay, well, this is the mentality of the occupation. You have to behave as the occupation likes you to behave. You have to be a slave, you have to be obeying the orders of the Israeli occupation, and if you did that, you would be a good guy. That returned us to the old sayings of the Israelis.

Speaker 1: But it would save the lives of all the thousands of Palestinians being killed, no?

Osama Hamdan: Well, it will not save them. Hamas is not ruling West Bank. Who is killing the Palestinians there? In the last year, 500 Palestinians were killed by the Israelis. And this year, from day number one, from the 7th of October, 110 Palestinians were killed by the Israelis. And before that, 300 Palestinians were killed from the 1st of January this year. So we are talking about 400 Palestinians were killed by the Israelis in West Bank, where Hamas is not there. where Hamas is not ruling, where there is a coordination on the security level between the Palestinian authority there, where Abu Mazen is saying daily that he is against the resistance and he's against saying anything which may harm the Israelis. And they are killing the Palestinians, building more settlements, taking over the Palestinian land. This is the mentality of the occupation. You have to obey the occupation. You have to accept the fact of occupation. He is saying the same words of Smotrich, which he has said a few weeks ago when he had said the Palestinians have three options, either to accept the occupation as a reality or they have to leave to another place or we will kill them. So they are both. the one who created Oslo agreements and the one who was undermining Oslo agreements. It's the mentality of the occupation. He defends himself by saying he is a good side of the story while he is killing the Palestinians. If you are a good side, you have to withdraw from the occupied Palestinian lands.

Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the issue of captives or hostages or prisoners, whatever people want to describe them as. We've seen Hamas release four so far. The last two were elderly women, a grandmother. Why did Hamas kidnap? How can you justify Hamas kidnapping a grandmother, an elderly woman, as we saw?

Osama Hamdan: Well, I think we have answered that several times, and there was a clear answer from Abu Ubaidah's spokesman of al-Qassam troops. He said clearly that we have taken war prisoners from the Israeli soldiers and officers in the army and in the Shabak. This is the fact. And the huge fall of the Israeli army encouraged everyone to come inside, those people of Gaza who was under the siege for 17 years, who was being killed, bombed all those years by the Israelis in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014, and 2021. They acted against those settlers who took over their homelands, who took over their original land, and they bring those people. And we called them from day number one, they are not hostages, they are not war prisoners, they are captives and we will release them as soon as the situation have changed.

Speaker 1: So you're saying now, if you don't mind me asking, you are saying now, you're claiming now that Hamas fighters did not take any non-combatants, the only people that the Hamas fighters took were soldiers or members of the security services?

Osama Hamdan: We don't need to take more than this because the huge fall down of the Israeli army gave you a good chance to have more prisoners. In fact, Mohammad Daif, the leader of Al-Qassam troops, in his message for the fighters before starting the operation, he said, you don't have to attack old men, women, children, don't kill, don't harm. Even the soldiers who are wounded, you don't have to kill them. This is our values and this is our morals. And whatever the Israelis are trying to say, they are lying. I believe they are lying. The whole idea of the Israelis is you have to lie and to lie and to lie, and then everyone will believe you. And they have a huge support from some countries who supported them, like United States allies, and supported them by the media. to keep saying the same story without any changes, even with the real stories. You have to realize, I think you realize what one of those two Israeli women have said. She said, they treated us in a good way. They behaved in a good way towards us. And all the Israeli officials and In the media, they have said it was a great problem, a great disaster, the speech of this woman, because it undermines the story of Israel.

Speaker 1: I want to ask you actually about the testimony of that elderly Israeli woman who did come out and she did say that she was treated well and she ate from the same food as the fighters who even cleaned the toilets for her and so forth. Yes, that undermines the narrative of the Israelis, but Hamas releasing those prisoners or those hostages or captives, doesn't it undermine Hamas in front of its own supporters when you have Palestinians who are in Israeli jails, amongst them one who was killed by torture in the West Bank just a couple of days ago? How do you justify to your supporters releasing the captives you have whilst Palestinian captives remain in Israeli jails. They don't have the right to have their families visiting them or to see lawyers. Their food is being cut off. And like I say, there's been reports of them essentially being tortured to death.

Osama Hamdan: Well, this is a difference between the supporters of Hamas and the Israelis. The Israelis are seeking to kill more Palestinians. They are seeking to see more blood of the Palestinians. They are seeking to kill more children and women of the Palestinians because they are occupiers. All what they want is to get rid of the Palestinian people and nation. On our side, Hamas supporters, they are seeking to have their liberation. They wanted their country to be liberated. They wanted to be their sons, husbands in the jails to be liberated. They understand that You can't have a prisoners exchange unless you have soldiers as war prisoners. And everyone knows that we have them. So it's okay. And we are doing the right thing when we are releasing those people, old women or some others, because it's our values. It's our ethics. So our supporters have said nothing wrong about that. In fact, they believe that the leadership of Hamas was acting in the right way when those people were released.

Speaker 1: I spoke to Danny Ayalon, the former assistant foreign minister, former Israeli assistant foreign minister, and when I asked him about the number of Palestinians killed in Gaza, of which there are, according to health officials in Gaza, more than 2,000 children who have been killed in the Gaza Strip since Israel began its war on the besieged enclave, he claimed that those numbers were inaccurate. He said that Gaza is controlled by Hamas and Hamas is lying about those numbers and that those numbers aren't true. Why are you making up numbers?

Osama Hamdan: Well, this is the difference between Hamas and Israel also. They are lying and they are preventing anyone to see the facts. Well, they are closing the hospitals. They don't allow anyone to go.

Speaker 1: Are you willing to allow for the international community or for journalists or for the Red Cross to come and check these numbers in Gaza?

Osama Hamdan: Exactly. While all the journalists are in front of all the hospitals and guests, they can see film. picture everything. They know the facts. They saw the bodies. They saw the pieces of the bodies. They saw the beheaded children and women by Israeli bombs. They saw the melted bodies by the Israeli bombs provided by the United States. All that was seen, filmed by the media. Well, you can't go to any hospital in Israel. In fact, you can't film any place in Israel which was attacked. This is what they are doing, and they claim that we are doing the same. Okay, Gaza is open, any international media is there, can see what is happening. Those numbers are facts and been seen by all the media. A few hours before talking to one of your colleagues in Al Jazeera, he faced the fact that all his family was bombed, his wife, his son, his daughter, and one of his grandsons were killed. the media, all the media have seen that. So those are not numbers. Those are people, humans, they have names, they have relatives, they have mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, And everyone knows them by their names. If you want, you can have a list of those names.

Speaker 1: I want to ask you, Mr. Hamdan, are you willing, can you tell me categorically now, are you willing to allow for an organization such as the International Red Cross or the United Nations or even the European Union or even the United States to come into Gaza and to see how many people have been killed, to see the hospitals, and to check whether or not Hamas fighters are hiding in those hospitals?

Osama Hamdan: Well, I have to tell you, the Red Cross is available, the United Nations is there, the UNRWA is there, and the foreign media is there. So they are all there, and they have all the access to see everything, and everyone knows that there was and there is no militants in the hospitals. We don't need to be in the hospitals. Those hospitals are not a place to hide the militants. The militants are on the borders. Two days ago, an Israeli tank tried to invade the lands of Gaza. Three meters after they have approached Gaza, Our fighters acted against that, destroying this tank. If they were hiding in the hospital, they would not be able to do this. Anyone is welcome, except the United States, because they are part of the war against our people. They are spying. They have declared yesterday that they are participating in the fight by Delta Force. We don't have, till now, any... Information about that, but they have declared that by themselves. So they are part of the fight against our nation. They don't have the right to check in what is happening because they are spying on our people. Any other countries, any other organizations, they have a full right to come. We are welcoming them and we welcome them to come and to see the facts and to see the real massacre and to know that. Netanyahu. is the new Hitler in this world. He is the Hitler of this century.

Speaker 1: One of the oldest churches in the world was bombed by the Israelis. Why do you believe, or why is it that there hasn't been an outcry from Christian nations over this attack on the church?

Osama Hamdan: Well, you have to ask them. You have to ask Mr. Macron, who is talking against the Palestinians. who is supporting the Israelis. Ask him if he dares to ask about the church, because it's a hypocrisy. This world, the United States and Europe, most of Europe, they are acting in a hypocritical way. They just saw the victim and they defend Israel. They are not talking about the church. It's not the first time where there is an attack against the church. They don't talk about churches, mosques, which was attacked. I believe you have to ask them this question. And they can't have any answer, except one answer, because it's Israel.

Speaker 1: I want to finish off with two questions. The first question, Mr. Hamdan, is the attack on October 7th. Just to go back to it, to set up my final question here. Did Hamas expect... expected to be as big as it was, basically? Did you expect to reach that deep into across the border? Did you expect to take as many prisoners of war as you mentioned? Was it expected to be that scale, or was Hamas planning for something smaller?

Osama Hamdan: Well, as was declared from al-Qassam troops, the plan was to attack all the military surroundings which is known as Gaza Brigades. In fact, the expectations was not like this. At least the timing was around 24 hours to take over all those places. It happened in four hours. And it shows how Israel army is not as it was described. And this is why the Americans are furious. This is why Israel is bombing their children and women. because you show the entire world that this occupation is not as strong as they describe. This occupation, which the United States trying to normalize the relation between this occupation and the Arab world based on they have a good and well organized and strong army. They have good and strong security. They have technology. They have good economics. All that fall down in the 7th of October. So this is the fact. We expected to act in a good way, but we did not expect them in this bad situation.

Speaker 1: Finally, I want to ask you about the way forward. This war has gone on now for almost three weeks. The death and destruction is unquestionable. The scenes are harrowing, really. How does this end? What is Hamas's endgame with regards to this?

Osama Hamdan: Well, destruction shows the real face of Israel. It shows that there is no chances to believe that Israel is seeking peace. It shows that the idea of peace cannot be implemented with Israel. It shows that anyone is talking about peace is not doing anything because if you want to see peace in the region, you have to prevent Israel from killing the Palestinians who have to make an end for the occupation. What I believe It may take a few days, maybe weeks, to make an end for this attack against Gaza. But at the end of the issue, the big question remains. What about the occupation? What about the presence of the occupation? If anyone believes that the Palestinians will surrender, will stop resisting the occupation, he doesn't think well. I have to remind everyone that those people who are fighting in Gaza, West Bank, everywhere against Israel. They were, most of them, most of the fighters, they were born after Oslo Agreement. If there was real peace, they were supposed to act in a different way. If the occupation continued, those children who are seeing now their fathers, mothers, brothers, friends are being killed, bombed by the Israelis. They have only one option. They will continue the resistance until they will get rid from the occupation. So this is the point. You have to make an end for the occupation.

Speaker 1: Mr. Osama Hamdan, thank you very much for your time and for joining us here on Sidebar. Thank you.